[00:00:04] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. Everybody in America seems to be at war, externally, internally. It's a tragic reality, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:00:26] Sheriff Richard Mack with me. He wrote a book, The Democrat Murder of America. We'll talk about that, but we have some incredible guests as well. They're from MoreLikeUs.org. What does that mean? Who are they? What are they doing? I love it all. We'll get to it in seconds. Sheriff, welcome. Well, good morning, Sam. It's great to be with you this beautiful Tuesday morning.
[00:00:51] All right. This book, The Democrat Murder of America, is a very provocative title, no doubt. Demagoguery in the First Degree, written by two authors, Daniel Perkins and Sheriff Richard Mack. I know the title is deliberately provocative, but really the goal is to bring people together. We just issued a press release about the book. Do you have a quick quote for us, sir? Yeah, Sam. Just about every page you turn to, there's an amazing quote.
[00:01:20] How about the one in the press release where we talk about the jar? Do you want to talk about that real quick? I didn't see that yet. Yeah, you did. You wrote it. The jar. You put these ants in the jar, right? I mean, I don't have it in front of me. Yeah, but you know the jar story. Come on. Oh, well, of course. Okay, so just for the sake of our guess, I'll keep it short, but in the book it does an analogy, maybe even a metaphor,
[00:01:48] but it does an analogy about black ants and red ants being put together. You put a hundred ants of each color in the jar, and nothing happens. They get along fine. But when somebody else shakes the jar, all the ants kill each other until they're completely, all of them are dead.
[00:02:12] And we pretty much surmise that that is the political atmosphere in America today. But the question remains, and the book mostly answers it, maybe not entirely, mostly answers the question, who is shaking the jar in America today? And I think it's vital that we come to that conclusion. And many people could be pointed to for shaking the jar.
[00:02:41] So let's talk to the folks at morelikeus.org. Ann Crockett with us, ladies and gentlemen. She's the co-chair of the new organization that's been around since 2024. Ann, welcome to Liberty Roundtable Live. Let it down here. Yeah. I can still see you. Hi, Ann. You're welcome. Oh, she's having some trouble. Ann can't hear me.
[00:03:09] The next person we have with us, too, her partner in this, is the executive director. His name is James Cohen. James, can you hear me? Welcome, sir. Yes. Hi, Sam. Thanks for having us. Excellent. Tell us a little bit about how the organization got started, will you? Yeah, so sure. 2016 election, felt my country seems to be tearing itself apart. What's wrong? What can I do about it?
[00:03:32] And that launched this interest that led me to Braver Angels, where we met as a volunteer. And there's a lot of work showing these misperceptions, these sense that those across the political spectrum are more different, more threatening than at least when we're talking about the general public, they often are.
[00:03:52] And ultimately, I decided if no one else was going to take this research that shows actually we do share more than often portrayed, then let's just start an organization. And so I got connected with Ann and Dane, who's also in the Mountain West in Denver. And we started More Like Us. You three started it together. More Like Us really is a reference to, you know what?
[00:04:21] We, the children of God, or we, the people on the earth, are more like each other, far more than we have differences. And that somehow gets lost in the mix, right? Yeah, right. I mean, you know, right, things that sell, right, tends to be, tends to show division, right? If it bleeds, it leads. But when we look at actual information about the American public, right, we have more common ground.
[00:04:51] There are more similarities than often portrayed and believed. What made you guys decide, hey, we got to go to college campuses? Because it's one thing to say, hey, we got to work on America. But college campuses, I believe, is a, is a real place where change can happen, not only our generation, but generations to come, right? Yeah. So we had to try various sectors. But for us, college campuses are just the best option. We deal a lot with messaging.
[00:05:21] And college campuses are pretty unique places where even flyers and buttons and stickers can have impact as students walk around a physical campus. There can be Instagram pages targeted to a given campus. And then, you know, echo chambers are usually bad things. But in this case, there can be somewhat like positive echo chambers, right? There are coaches, administrators, professors, student government leaders, star athletes.
[00:05:48] All these people can repeat messages and really reinforce, reinforce messages that resonate with students. And this just doesn't really occur pretty much anywhere else in society. So it's very powerful. Morelikeus.org, the website. We've also got Ann Skoppet with us. She is the co-chair. Welcome, Ann. Such a pleasure to be here. What a wonderful show you have. Thank you. And I appreciate the honor of joining you.
[00:06:16] So Sheriff Mack's book talks about you put these red ants in a jar and black ants and, you know, they just coexist fine. But when you shake the jar, then they fight each other to death. And it's an analogy to highlight kind of what's happening in America. It seems like people are shaking the jar, Ann. It seems like a lot of jars are being shaken. Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:06:37] And from here, right on our land and throughout the entire world, this is not something that's endemic to us, unfortunately. So, yes, what we need to do is go back, take a deep breath.
[00:06:52] And the reason why I'm so thrilled to be part of More Like Us is because we are working with the future leaders of this country and showing them how to speak with each other within the aisle, within the side of the aisle, and also across the aisle. It's a fabulous, a fabulous organization, and it's already doing a lot of good. I believe that if you reach one person, you reach the universe.
[00:07:19] And so we are reaching many universes right now, Sam. Excellent. James, did you guys get your kind of idea from this from Braver Angels or how did that happen? No. So, Braver Angels helps, but a lot of this comes from work from other organizations and academia.
[00:07:40] So, More In Common is an organization that came up with the term perception gap a little bit before the pandemic, showing that Americans have these distortions of each other across the political spectrum. And there's a lot of research. There's a cool project called Strengthening Democracy Challenge that crowdsourced a bunch of short interventions. And some of the ones that worked the best directly corrected misperceptions. So we said, hey, the research seems strong.
[00:08:10] And if no one else is going to run with this data and share it with others, then I guess it's going to be us. I love it. Sheriff Richard Mack, More Like Us focuses on spreading memorable, repeatable, and decision-making thoughts on campus. You know what? Why do you ask college campuses need this? Because we've got to correct misperceptions. We've got to communicate memorable skills. It's one thing to label the other guy.
[00:08:41] It's another thing to set that aside and go, wait a minute, I don't want to have preconceived misconceptions. And I want to learn to communicate what I really feel. You know what? I might not like your ideas, but that doesn't mean I hate you as a person. And so they're really working to try to provide research and education and then hold workshops, et cetera, Sheriff. Yeah. In fact, when I was at the Freedom Fest just recently, there was a group of young people. In fact, that's part of their name.
[00:09:10] I can't remember their name exactly, but it's Young Students for America or something like that. And they've actually asked me to be part of their tours into the campuses of this country. And so it looks like there's a lot of people in a lot of different groups. And I'm really proud that Ann and James are part of this. It looks like I'm going to be a part of it as well.
[00:09:35] And that's something I've always wanted to do because I really believe that that's the grassroots area for saving our country. Because the students now going into colleges and universities have been indoctrinated by our public schools in things that just aren't true. And the sanctity of life would be one of those.
[00:10:02] Another would be, what form of government do we have? Are we really a democracy? Were we ever meant to be a democracy? And how many college students actually know the answer to that? It's an honest, fair question. Ann, how do we get into the campuses then and start with real truths? I'm so glad you asked that. By the way, I have to preface what I'm about to say.
[00:10:29] After 45 years involved in grassroots activism, experience in business, government, civic, politics. Liz, skip the break, Liz. Liz, skip the break. Go ahead, Ann. Okay. And after 45 years being involved in activism, as the good sheriff just said, and business, government, civics, politics. First of all, I have to say that we are a democracy, but we are a constitutional republic.
[00:10:53] And when you go by the rule of law and follow that rule of law, you have to understand the structure of this country. And this is so important to be able to base anything we do on.
[00:11:06] So the first thing is we have to battle the inundation of messaging from many, many different sources, social media, broadcast media, the professors on campus or whatever it happens to be with these students and be able to let them know through our incredible body of researchers that we have on More Like Us.
[00:11:29] And that's one of the things that really does distinguish us as well, that basically they are not alone in their thinking or that many people who may perceive as being on the other side or the wrong side, however you want to put it, basically agree with them on many, many points. So you have to find that common bond, and that way you can move forward. James, the goal is to motivate civil discourse, right? Correct. I'm not hearing.
[00:11:59] Tell me about that more. How do we do that when right now it's such a poison atmosphere on college campuses, right? I mean, it gets to where a conservative wants to speak and they shut them down before they can even speak or et cetera, right? That's what it seems like, right? This is the distinction that we play with, right? Perception and reality.
[00:12:20] And yes, I mean, we don't want to minimize inappropriately the threats out there and the concerns that students have, but they're also often overblown. So when we talk about motivation, we mean about reducing hesitancy. There's all sorts of ideas that students have about each other and how awkward conversations are going to be and the social consequences of speaking that are often overly negative.
[00:12:50] And then also there can be enticements. There can be people wanting to do this, right? Often these conversations are described as very difficult and uncomfortable. And like, if you grit your teeth hard enough, like maybe you can push through this and you are an amazing person if you can do this. But if you actually look at the research on students who talk to each other about political topics, a large majority of them enjoy it. And that's the kind of messaging that we have.
[00:13:18] Like, in many cases, this can be quite fun and enlightening. And right, that people don't have to have this amazing internal fortitude in order to withstand these horrendous situations that often it works out better than people expect. And we want to highlight that this is the case, right? Again, we're not trying to be overly positive. We're not trying to say everything is going to be wonderful and it's going to be fun all the time. Yeah, you're not in a Lego movie. It's often better than people imagine.
[00:13:48] Sheriff Mack, what do you think of this, though? To me, a lot of this really comes down to trying to get past the labels and realizing that the other guy, whether we agree or disagree, is a person. And they really have the same wants and dreams and hopes as you do, Sheriff. Yeah, I totally agree with that, Sam. You already know that I do.
[00:14:06] And, you know, I really actually find it very productive to sit down with people from different viewpoints and actually open it up for discussion. But I think the bottom line is that we have to begin with one agreement, that there is a foundation on which we are trying to base our arguments.
[00:14:35] And that foundation in America is the United States Constitution. And if you don't know the Constitution, then you're going to be and you're ignorant of the Constitution or that you're intentionally trying to subvert it, as it appears that the Democrat Party is doing today. It's really going to have a hard time having any real legitimate discussion with the other side. I'm willing to discuss abortion. I'm willing to discuss the economy.
[00:15:04] I'm willing to discuss foreign affairs. But the foundation we have to agree is that we do have laws that we established in the beginning and that this is the law of the land and that it is supreme. And so there has to be some sort of foundation that we agree on when we start the conversation. The point is there's got to be at least like-minded terms and a framework for understanding. And you referred to the law.
[00:15:34] Do you want to pick up on this one? Absolutely. Without a doubt. The good sheriff and I, as well as James and Jane, I absolutely agree on this. You need to have an appreciation, first of all. The fact that we are lucky enough to have the freedom to share opinions civilly and basically that there is a structure to this country. And if you do want to change the structure, that is in place as well. We have the ability to do that.
[00:16:04] But we cannot take it upon ourselves to decide one day, I don't like the way this is. I'm just not going to adhere. So I definitely agree with him. James, it's one thing to do a bunch of research. It's another to bring that research to campuses and share that with young people. And then it's another to then stimulate conversation based on that research. I know you guys have started to do that on several campuses across the country. Give us kind of a summary. How's it going? How's it working out? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's going well. There's a lot of interest.
[00:16:35] It can often be this sense that colleges are just these really, really toxic environments. And in some cases, there's at least a kernel of truth there. But there's a lot of dialogue initiatives on campus. And we're helping to enhance those. Our biggest project is at Michigan State. It's a social norms marketing campaign. Sort of entertaining. This has historically been used for high-risk drinking students who think that their classmates
[00:17:05] drink more than they do. Now, we have a survey with a center on that campus that shows that students overestimate the hostility that they're going to face and getting chastised for their opinions and, you know, underestimate the curiosity of their classmates. And I think there's a great deal of openness to this, right? It makes sense to students, this kind of messaging. But it's also something that they don't tend to hear.
[00:17:33] And so it resonates. And it also has this uniqueness that makes it stickier than a lot of other messages out there. So let me ask this. If everybody's kind of so paranoid that it's going to be worse than it is, and I hear this pattern over and over. Braver Angels highlights this. You guys are highlighting this. I've seen this. Where everybody's so paranoid that it's going to go south and they're going to be attacked or ridiculed or mocked.
[00:17:58] Where do you think this super fear, whatever you want to call it, is coming from? If it's not reality in the marketplace of society, if you will, what's driving that? Does the media create that? Does the hostility on campus? Is it the professors? Is it the way campuses are run or the way classes are taught? What creates this supercharged kind of view that's not reality? What makes that perception so out of line, Ann?
[00:18:25] I'm going to say yes, yes, yes. And answering you just like that, Sam, absolutely. There is such an inundation of chaotic messaging right now that any young impressionable student would be either confused or looking for a safe haven. And instead of getting the safe haven that lets that person explore many different avenues,
[00:18:54] it becomes more of an indoctrination as such. And they see this and they feel this is the way they have to act. It's really a shame. Plus, I have to say that not only do we have this from our own people here in this country, it is coming from influencers from across the world.
[00:19:19] And many of those have a very, very strong or I should say a stranglehold on education. So basically, as I said before, yes, from many, many different sources. So the first thing to do is to actually get onto campus and in a very, very civilized way, just show people that they're not alone.
[00:19:47] Show how many people in general share their views, what percentages share their views. We have an amazing resource, which I'm sure James wants to tell you more about, right on the More Like Us website, where people can actually see, you know, the specific numbers of people or percentages that actually share their views. Brian, you want to add to this?
[00:20:18] James, I'm sorry. I specifically focus on this. There's perverse incentives, right? So if it bleeds, it leads. And in an attention economy, right? Like how are people going to get clicks and listen, right? It's like, oh, let's get along. Boring. I want to go to sleep, right? Oh, they are a threat to me. Ah, well, OK, I want to watch, you know.
[00:20:48] And right. So there's an incentive to highlight differences. Unfortunately, I think our field, which, you know, could push back on this, has sometimes accentuated these differences, right? The term polarization, for instance, suggests that we're starting from a position of two completely distinct poles of which there's almost no common ground. So like we don't use that term because we think it's counterproductive.
[00:21:13] What Anne was talking about is something that we've run with all sides. It's called Similarity Hub, and we've aggregated about 700 individual survey data points showing overlap across the political spectrum. So right, there can be overlaps in terms of goals and then also on lots of different policy issues on about 20 different topics covering all the hot button issues. So yes, there is a starting point where there's common ground essentially wherever we look.
[00:21:41] And when we talk about like us, that's kind of the point, right? You got it right. We named it for a reason. Note that we use the word more like us, right? We're not just saying just like us or the exact same. We note that there are differences. We want to be honest and accurate. But thankfully, we are more like us than often portrayed. And those differences, though, while we understand them, that's okay. That doesn't have to be a polarization.
[00:22:09] That doesn't have to be a labeling. That doesn't have to be a hate. That doesn't have to be any of those things. We can learn to humanize one another and say, you know what? I want to learn how they got there. I want to learn what their life's experiences, who their parents are, you know, enough about them to understand why they got there. Because when you do, you still may not agree, but at least you can say, hey, they're at least coming from this or at this from a caring position, not a hate position or from a, you know, et cetera.
[00:22:38] I did an interview at Freedom Fest with Brian Shapiro. And I tried to have a discussion with him about, you know, the divisions in America. And I tried to say, you know, he basically talked about Trump as the cause of it all. And I kind of said, let's rewind a little bit before that to Barack Obama. I think Barack Obama unintentionally divided on race and stuff. And Barack and Trump both had a lot of divisions. I think the division started with both of them. Well, he went off on a tangent.
[00:23:08] I tried to cycle him back to the discussion at hand. Well, I was not probably going to release the interview because I just felt like it was pretty much a fight interview. I didn't mean it to be. I tried to be kind, but he just went from topic to topic and intentionally, I believe he's a shock jock. So he did it on purpose. But then he wrote a headline for the interview. He released it. And it says this, how can a blind man be such a racist? Brian exposes host on his own show at Freedom Fest is his headline. And then so there's the interview.
[00:23:37] And then there basically is all of his people writing comments, basically just attacking me saying, hey, you know, how can a blind person be so blind? How can a person be so stupid and crazy? And anyway, they relentlessly attack me. And I illustrate this because I'm not attacking Brian back or his listeners. I'm merely saying, you know, you can think bad about me all you want to. But what I'd like to do is have enough conversations to at least say, I may disagree with what you
[00:24:05] say, but I stand for your right to say it. And more importantly, maybe we can find some common ground. That's what I would hope to do. So ladies and gentlemen, when we get back, we have Sheriff Mack with me still, obviously. But then we got James Cohen. He's the executive director. We got Ann Skoppet with us. She's with morelikeus.org. Check out their website. They're working on college campuses to help people work together from research and points
[00:24:34] of common ground. I'm Sam Bushman. More in seconds. God save our constitutional republic. We've got everything in time We can't do it. We know how to create a mutual guarantee, but we can't with any story. And love has really been supposed to happen to God. The world has really learned, perhaps more for us, did not come, was