Radio Show Hour 2 – 11/21/2024

[00:00:12] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show.

[00:00:24] Back with you live, ladies and gentlemen, Sam Bushman, Eldon Stahl, hard-hitting talk at your fingertips.

[00:00:30] This is Liberty Roundtable Live for November 21st in the year of our Lord, 2024.

[00:00:36] Hour 202, the goal always to promote God, family, and country and to protect life, liberty, and property,

[00:00:41] to reject revolution unless it's a Jesus revolution.

[00:00:44] Then we're in because we follow the Prince of Peace.

[00:00:47] We actually use the Supreme Law of the Land, the Constitution of the United States of America as our guide.

[00:00:52] The checks and balances brilliantly put in place by the Founding Fathers,

[00:00:55] one of the peaceful restorative solutions we have at our fingertips.

[00:00:59] Welcoming our next guest to the discussion, the Epoch Times author and more, Andrew Thornbrook with us,

[00:01:08] national security correspondent with a focus on defense and military affairs, theepochtimes.com.

[00:01:18] We're talking about, along with China, related issues and more.

[00:01:22] Andrew, welcome to Liberty Roundtable Live, sir.

[00:01:25] Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:27] It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:28] Give us a 30 second on who you are.

[00:01:30] How did you get involved with the Epoch Times, sir?

[00:01:32] Andrew Thornbrook, CEO, and the United States of America,

[00:01:32] Yeah, so my name's Andrew Thornbrook.

[00:01:34] I worked for a long time as defense and foreign policy analyst with many, many fine publications,

[00:01:39] syndicated and otherwise.

[00:01:40] My academic background is in military history.

[00:01:44] That's really how I came to the Epoch Times in 2021,

[00:01:48] kind of as a first as a freelance analyst, kind of helping them round out some China coverage.

[00:01:54] And then slowly they brought me in and I was brought in as a part of the D.C. team here,

[00:01:59] trying to create, you know, cutting edge, honest reporting about national security issues.

[00:02:05] All right.

[00:02:06] I've been talking about this ever since it happened last weekend, Andrew.

[00:02:11] And really the discussion in my mind is very difficult.

[00:02:16] So, as you know, we've been involved in the Ukraine.

[00:02:19] We've spent tons of money and time and effort.

[00:02:22] And I mean, it's out of control for sure.

[00:02:25] Well, over the last weekend, Joe Biden literally created a situation where,

[00:02:30] hey, let's allow long range missiles to be used and launched into Russia by the Ukraine.

[00:02:36] Let's go ahead and send $7 billion more to them before Donald Trump takes office because,

[00:02:42] hey, he might not send the money.

[00:02:44] We go on and on and on with this kind of a, I don't know, clown show, if you will.

[00:02:49] Some are saying that, hey, you know what?

[00:02:50] The deep state willing to risk nuclear war over this.

[00:02:54] Russia threatening that.

[00:02:56] I'm of the humble foreign policy viewpoint of Ron Paul and our former general and former president,

[00:03:03] George Washington, where I kind of think we ought to stay out of this stuff.

[00:03:07] But, man, they're escalating at an alarming rate.

[00:03:10] Many are now saying we're closer to World War III than we have ever been.

[00:03:13] First off, what's your thoughts on that, Andrew?

[00:03:17] Yeah, you know, it's a difficult situation to be sure.

[00:03:20] There has been some escalation here from the U.S. side.

[00:03:23] With that being said, I do think the Russian response will be more limited than we might

[00:03:29] initially have expected.

[00:03:30] And the reason for that is specifically because of the U.S. election.

[00:03:34] You know, if Biden had made this decision on November 4th, I think Russia's response would

[00:03:40] have been pretty severe.

[00:03:41] But the fact is that everyone in the world, including Vladimir Putin, knows that the transition

[00:03:46] of power is underway and that in a few months' time, the United States is probably going

[00:03:50] to be unraveling these policies and at least pushing Ukraine and Russia towards a negotiated

[00:03:55] ceasefire.

[00:03:56] So I do wholeheartedly expect some escalation across Ukraine because of this, but I don't

[00:04:03] expect it to be catastrophic.

[00:04:04] And we can talk about the reasons for that also.

[00:04:06] There's been some restraint by Ukraine as well, and I think they're going to be used for a

[00:04:10] very specific purpose.

[00:04:12] Yeah, and I agree with you 100 percent, but I find some of these details interesting.

[00:04:20] One of the headlines says, Biden's parting gift to Trump, major escalation in the Ukraine.

[00:04:27] Next headline, you know what?

[00:04:29] Joe Biden officially, but unconstitutionally, authorized Ukraine to use these long-range missiles.

[00:04:36] The shift in Biden's position comes after North Korea sent an estimated 10,000 troops to Russia.

[00:04:44] The administration is scrambling to get this $7 billion to them ahead of time.

[00:04:49] Will Biden spike a wider conflict with Russia?

[00:04:54] Then, you know, whether it's Trump or Biden, Trump said in April, Israel's got to finish what

[00:04:59] they started and get it over with fast, noting that, hey, you know what?

[00:05:05] This stuff coming out of Gaza is a problem.

[00:05:07] We see an escalation there.

[00:05:08] Mike Huckabee now, a pro-Israel guy, nominated to the administration.

[00:05:14] The emergence of World War III has already begun, writes one article.

[00:05:22] Now is the time for confirming a grand strategy to defend America worldwide.

[00:05:28] That's WorldNetDaily with that piece.

[00:05:31] Then you talk about Jamie Dimon.

[00:05:34] This guy is the CEO of JPMorgan Chase.

[00:05:38] He recently said that World War III has already started.

[00:05:41] He said, we have battles on the ground being coordinated in multiple countries right now.

[00:05:46] And then Russia simulates a nuclear strike in response to the enemy, cbsnews.com.

[00:05:54] Now, I don't want to just make this out to be worse than it is.

[00:05:58] I don't want to fear monger over this.

[00:06:00] But those aren't small statements by small people, though.

[00:06:03] Are we going to end up in a war going forward regardless of what happens?

[00:06:06] Is that the future for us?

[00:06:08] I don't think so, no.

[00:06:10] Though we are, of course, very much at risk of spreading ourselves too thin and getting involved

[00:06:16] in proxy wars throughout the world.

[00:06:17] This is – that's not a new issue, right?

[00:06:20] So there's always a risk of the United States getting enmeshed in many conflicts and facing

[00:06:26] a sort of death by a thousand cuts situation.

[00:06:28] But I do not think that we are that close to witnessing a – what we wouldn't traditionally

[00:06:33] think of as a world war, right?

[00:06:34] Which is multiple powers fighting for clearly defined sides against each other in open-arm

[00:06:38] conflict.

[00:06:39] And there's a few reasons for that.

[00:06:41] I think we've seen that from Putin, right?

[00:06:43] We've seen this change in the strategic nuclear doctrine.

[00:06:46] I don't anticipate that to be used, right?

[00:06:49] I think Putin at this time – there will be historical consequences to be sure.

[00:06:54] But Putin's been pretty calculated in his responses, right?

[00:06:58] There hasn't been open attacks on Western targets, NATO targets, that is, right?

[00:07:03] No one, Biden administration or in the Kremlin, is really gunning for open NATO-Russia conflict.

[00:07:09] I think that's the key thing to understand.

[00:07:11] It's about managing sort of expectations ahead of what is going to be a ceasefire deal that

[00:07:18] no one really likes.

[00:07:20] And so when we talk about, for instance, you know, we opened up talking about these long-range

[00:07:25] missiles and now there's going to be anti-personnel mines being used in Russia by Ukraine.

[00:07:31] What we really have to understand is how they're being used and why they're being used.

[00:07:34] So, so far, the long-range missiles have only been used against one target.

[00:07:38] That was an ammunition depot.

[00:07:39] And this is a target that Ukraine had actually attacked dozens of times with drones.

[00:07:44] It's just that the missile allowed it to actually hit the target.

[00:07:48] The landmines likewise have electronic fuses, so they stop working after two weeks.

[00:07:53] So they don't pose a threat anymore.

[00:07:54] So these will really be used to shape the battlefield in the short term.

[00:07:58] And the key here, the reason I bring this up and I would downplay risk of World War III is

[00:08:04] that this is really a strategy that's being employed in preparation for an end to the war.

[00:08:11] So the Biden administration...

[00:08:12] So you think this will actually help President Trump then?

[00:08:15] It could if he can capitalize on the situation.

[00:08:18] So the key here is whether or not Ukraine can use these capabilities to hold Kursk.

[00:08:26] So Kursk is that little chunk they took out of a Russian province back in August, right,

[00:08:30] that Ukrainian forces have managed to hold on to.

[00:08:33] It's allegedly where North Korean troops are being sent to fight the Ukrainians.

[00:08:38] And Kursk is really key because when Ukraine and Russia get pushed to the negotiating table

[00:08:46] during the Trump administration, Ukraine needs to have something to bring to the table.

[00:08:51] And if they can hold on to Kursk until then, they can say to Russia,

[00:08:55] listen, we'll trade you back Kursk if you give us back some of our occupied territories.

[00:09:01] If they don't do that, if they can't hold on to it,

[00:09:04] then they're not going to have anything to bring to the table.

[00:09:06] And we're going to witness essentially the first conquest of the 21st century.

[00:09:10] And I think that's really what the end goal of Biden is.

[00:09:13] I think Biden...

[00:09:14] This is really an acknowledgment.

[00:09:16] Trump is coming to power.

[00:09:17] There's going to be a push for a ceasefire.

[00:09:19] And he's trying to make it so that Ukraine can have something to bring to the table.

[00:09:24] So you're saying set the stage for the negotiations.

[00:09:27] Right.

[00:09:27] So whether or not Trump can capitalize on that is another issue.

[00:09:31] You know, it'll definitely depend on both sides,

[00:09:33] how belligerent Zelensky and Putin are about their goals.

[00:09:37] That's very hard to get a read on because both have issued pretty extreme statements

[00:09:41] saying they refuse to get...

[00:09:42] Saying they're open negotiation, but they'll also refuse to give up any of their demands.

[00:09:47] The way I like to put it that I've been telling people is, you know,

[00:09:51] think about what you hear coming out of the Kremlin or out of Kiev,

[00:09:55] sort of the way you hear Congress talk when it's getting ready to debate a bill.

[00:09:59] Both sides are going to throw flags up that are very extreme,

[00:10:03] marking out very extreme positions because they know eventually they're going to be brought to the middle

[00:10:08] and they're going to end up with a compromise that no one really likes.

[00:10:11] And I think that's how this war is ultimately going to end.

[00:10:14] And they're hoping to paint their extremes.

[00:10:16] And then when they start to come back to the middle, hopefully they're...

[00:10:18] You know, the question is,

[00:10:19] how do I make the other guy come back further to the middle towards my side and vice versa?

[00:10:23] How do we stake out our positions so far?

[00:10:25] And then, et cetera.

[00:10:27] I get that.

[00:10:27] What about Vivek Ramaswamy saying,

[00:10:29] you know what, we're just throwing Russia into the arms of China.

[00:10:32] We're going to take a quick break.

[00:10:33] When we get back, I want Andrew Thornbrook to be able to answer that.

[00:10:37] He is a national security correspondent and author for the Epoch Times.

[00:10:41] Doing a phenomenal job.

[00:10:43] Theepochtimes.com.

[00:10:44] Hang tight.

[00:10:45] The BD Roundtable Live continues in seconds on your radio.

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[00:13:03] Andrew Thornbrook with us.

[00:13:05] Ladies and gentlemen, national security correspondent, EpochTimes.com.

[00:13:10] So, Andrew, this is kind of a tough discussion in many, many ways.

[00:13:14] And I pray that we can back away from wars like you're saying.

[00:13:17] And I agree that, you know what, both sides are kind of being extreme.

[00:13:20] However, you know, the Bible predicts war, war, war, war, rumors of war and everything else.

[00:13:25] And so I don't know how to back away from it from that point of view.

[00:13:28] But how will a second Trump administration affect foreign policy?

[00:13:32] Will we see a lot of change?

[00:13:36] Yeah, it's hard to say.

[00:13:37] So obviously this is something the Trump administration struggled with the first time.

[00:13:41] I think everyone knows that coming into office in 2016, 2017, excuse me, January, Donald Trump really at that time wasn't prepared for how much resistance he could possibly meet in, you know, all the myriad bureaucracies in D.C. and elsewhere.

[00:13:57] That being said, I think he's learned from the first administration.

[00:14:00] And we could see some pretty significant headwinds in foreign policy across the board.

[00:14:05] This includes, of course, with, as we spoke about, his support for how he intends to end the war in Ukraine.

[00:14:14] It's also going to be seen in the Middle East, Gaza, of course, and, of course, with China.

[00:14:19] So I think China is the big one.

[00:14:20] We were talking, you know, there is a segue there, of course, with Russia, because one of the biggest things we've seen is this increasing cooperation between these authoritarian powers.

[00:14:29] And I think that's going to be a real issue.

[00:14:31] Vivek says we're pushing Russia into the arms of China.

[00:14:34] Do you agree with that?

[00:14:36] Yeah, you know, I do.

[00:14:37] I think there's been a number of factors that have come into play here.

[00:14:42] So since we really cut Russia out, I mean, this began in 2014 with Crimea, right?

[00:14:48] Russia was increasingly pushed out and out and out with sanctions until finally with the full-scale invasion, you know, they've been essentially cut off from very key systems.

[00:14:58] And so normally, if a country is pretty well integrated into the international system, you can pressure them with sanctions.

[00:15:05] But once you've pushed them so far out and essentially cut them off like we have with Russia, there is no incentive to try to repair that relationship.

[00:15:13] What they are now doing is working with Russia and Iran and North Korea to develop an alternative system.

[00:15:19] And they are succeeding to that very well.

[00:15:21] When you say the alternative system, you mean BRICS, right?

[00:15:24] It can be BRICS, but it's also just this network of alliances, right?

[00:15:27] It's what Russian leadership would report to as multipolarity, right?

[00:15:30] Ending the era of U.S. dominance, ending the era in which the United States is the world's sole superpower.

[00:15:39] And we see this with Russia-China cooperation across the board.

[00:15:42] We see this with increased military cooperation.

[00:15:43] We've had Russian and Chinese ships conducting military drills 13 miles off the coast of Alaska, right?

[00:15:50] We see this with scientific cooperation.

[00:15:53] Now China's getting unfettered access to the Arctic, which it previously didn't have.

[00:15:57] And now, just this week actually, there's been this completion of a major natural gas pipeline from Russia to China.

[00:16:05] It's completed seven months ahead of schedule.

[00:16:07] And before the end of the year, huge portions of Shanghai are going to be being powered by Russian natural gas.

[00:16:15] So we really have created this setup for Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and others throughout the world to start developing in earnest an alternative to the U.S.-led system,

[00:16:30] which I think is really going to create a lot more volatility in the years to come in foreign policy.

[00:16:38] It's dangerous, there's no doubt.

[00:16:40] Eldon?

[00:16:40] Yeah, that sounds like it could make for some interesting times, right?

[00:16:52] There's so many plans afoot and machinations going on that we need to be very aware and just, I don't know, protect our interests at least.

[00:17:05] Andrew, you write articles about staring down China in the Indo-Pacific.

[00:17:10] And right now, China's our favorite nation trading partner.

[00:17:13] We've literally got a trade deficit like out of the, you know, it's crazy with these guys.

[00:17:18] How do we stare them down in the Indo-Pacific?

[00:17:20] How do we deal with this continued aggression?

[00:17:24] Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question.

[00:17:26] It's going to be very difficult, I think, for the Trump administration to figure out how it wants to move about this.

[00:17:32] Obviously, Trump has a bit more of a protectionist bent.

[00:17:35] He's going to want to increase tariffs.

[00:17:36] He's going to want to try to shore up the American economy.

[00:17:40] One of the problems with that is how reliant the United States is in the Indo-Pacific, right?

[00:17:46] I mean, 60% of the world's semiconductors are coming out of Taiwan, 90% of the advanced ones.

[00:17:52] And these are using everything from, you know, at this point, pickup trucks to hypersonic missiles.

[00:17:57] So there's a huge reliance.

[00:17:59] It's a huge strategic asset for the United States.

[00:18:04] So much of our economy is dependent on this region and on access to this region.

[00:18:08] So that's one of the reasons we very much fear for a war for Taiwan, right, and whether or not we would get involved with that.

[00:18:15] Do you think China will move on Taiwan?

[00:18:18] It's difficult to say, and we're, you know, we're honestly in a bit of a catch-22 right now because we're so dependent on Taiwan that we're more inclined to want to defend it.

[00:18:27] The reverse of that is as the United States tries to reshore a lot of these capabilities, right, as we start trying to start manufacturing our own semiconductors, right?

[00:18:38] We should have done that from the beginning.

[00:18:40] Well, yeah, but there's the reverse of the coin is that that could actually make war more likely, right?

[00:18:45] Because if China – if we are no longer economically anchored by Taiwan, it will no longer be in our interest to try to defend it militarily.

[00:18:58] And if the United States – if it's not in the United States' interest to defend Taiwan militarily, China will be more likely to launch an attack against it because it won't be defended by the United States.

[00:19:09] And so we're in this sort of catch-22 trying to secure our interests, but in the process of securing our interests, we're actually risking greater instability elsewhere in the world.

[00:19:19] And so I think there's a lot of tradeoffs to be made here, and the Trump administration is really going to have to try to balance, you know, how much it wants to preserve American economic might and how much it wants to cede Chinese interests to China, right?

[00:19:38] That's really what China has been gunning for in these recent decades is what it views as its rightful place as the world's largest nation or the world's second largest economy.

[00:19:50] China feels it is a superpower.

[00:19:52] It's not treated like a superpower.

[00:19:54] It's being contained.

[00:19:55] And I think U.S. policymakers have been very clear that they are trying to contain China.

[00:19:59] And we're going to have to confront that issue diplomatically or else it's going to turn into military.

[00:20:06] Unfortunately, reality.

[00:20:08] How about confronting a war in Europe?

[00:20:09] I know that one of Donald Trump's big initiatives are, hey, you partners are going to have to pay your fair share of this thing or we're going to back out of this sucker.

[00:20:16] And, you know, I mean, it's a stick in a carrot for sure.

[00:20:20] Yeah.

[00:20:21] Oh, yeah.

[00:20:21] And but, you know, the benefit there is a lot of that has worked.

[00:20:26] And I think Europe has been preparing for some years now for a second Trump administration.

[00:20:31] So you look back just 10 years ago when Russia invaded Ukraine the first time to annex Crimea, only three percent of NATO or three, excuse me, three nations within NATO were spending at least two percent of their GDP on defense.

[00:20:48] Defense.

[00:20:50] Between now and then and actually between Trump, the first Trump administration and now that has increased dramatically.

[00:20:57] So I was just at the NATO summit earlier this year in Washington, D.C., and there's now 24 NATO nations that are meeting that number and some exceeding it by quite a lot.

[00:21:07] Right.

[00:21:07] We have Poland pushing four percent GDP.

[00:21:10] So I think Europe, our European partners have taken the hint from Trump, and I think they are really going to to try to meet that expectation.

[00:21:21] There are stragglers in NATO.

[00:21:24] Canada is obviously a big one there.

[00:21:26] There are stragglers who aren't for various reasons contributing that much.

[00:21:32] But I think across the board we have seen an earnest effort to try to meet the Trump administration demand to pull their weight.

[00:21:42] Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking to Andrew Thornbrook, national security correspondent at theepochtimes.com.

[00:21:51] So I know this is crystal ballish a little bit, Andrew, but I want to kind of get the take.

[00:21:54] What do you expect in the next four to eight years?

[00:21:56] Some are saying that they want to sabotage Trump by forcing us into wars, by playing this economic card against us.

[00:22:02] And do you think we're going to see turmoil related to that or are you going to see calm internally and externally?

[00:22:09] You know, I think the coming years I do perceive as being marked by volatility.

[00:22:16] We're in a transition period, not just in the United States, but in the world.

[00:22:20] We're transitioning away from the sort of dream of global liberalism.

[00:22:24] We're transitioning away from a unipolar world where only one power really has all the military might in the world.

[00:22:32] We're transitioning away from a bipolar, essentially nuclear doctrine in which the United States and Russia were the only serious nuclear contenders on Earth.

[00:22:42] China is very quickly becoming a third.

[00:22:46] And all of this spells for volatility.

[00:22:48] That doesn't mean war.

[00:22:49] That doesn't mean catastrophe.

[00:22:51] But it does mean we need sound, stable minds and a steady hand at the helm, right?

[00:22:57] We need to be prepared for volatility.

[00:22:59] We need to be able to respond reasonably and with strength, but without giving in to perhaps our base or instincts and fears.

[00:23:10] So it's going to be interesting times for the foreseeable future, I'm afraid.

[00:23:16] I pray that we don't have war in the future.

[00:23:18] The Bible predicts war, and I'm fearful that we're getting closer to it.

[00:23:22] The problem is that the world has become basically, you know, they act like they're the world's cop.

[00:23:26] They can decide who buys oil.

[00:23:27] They can force the dollar to be the petrodollar oil.

[00:23:31] And people are sick of the hegemony of the United States acting like we're the, you know, controller of everybody and everything.

[00:23:37] These sovereign nations are pushing back and saying, you know what, no more.

[00:23:40] And the more they get their economic, you know, guidelines in order and whatever you want to call it,

[00:23:46] the more they get their own independence, bricks and whatever else,

[00:23:49] the more they'll start to push back and won't accept it.

[00:23:52] And that's my biggest concern, Andrew.

[00:23:54] Final statement from you.

[00:23:55] You've got about 20 seconds.

[00:23:57] Yeah, you know, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:23:59] We're getting ready to enter a period of extreme volatility.

[00:24:02] And the fact of the matter is, the United States can't engage across the world in the way it has been.

[00:24:07] It can't interfere in other nations' interests as much as it has, or at least not as destructively.

[00:24:13] And so we're going to have to learn how to cooperate, even with adversaries, in the coming years.

[00:24:17] Thank you.

[00:24:17] Amen to that.

[00:24:18] Andrew Thornbrook, everyone.

[00:24:21] National Security Correspondent for the Epoch Times.

[00:24:23] Check out his incredible writings there and more.

[00:24:25] The EpochTimes.com.

[00:24:27] Andrew Thornbrook, thank you so much, sir.

[00:24:30] Thanks so much for having me.

[00:24:31] It's a real pleasure.

[00:24:32] Eldon Stahl coming up.

[00:24:33] Ladies and gentlemen, hang tight.

[00:24:34] You are talking about hard-hitting news that I was refused to use right here on your radio.

[00:24:40] LovingLiberty.net.

[00:24:41] Spread the word.

[00:24:41] By the way, check out my incredible new videos, will you?

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[00:26:00] The Gaza war grinds on.

[00:26:03] The Israeli military has recently intensified its offensive in northern Gaza, saying it's stopping Hamas from regrouping.

[00:26:09] Medics say they're struggling to treat the injured, with aid agencies saying they can't get essential supplies into the area.

[00:26:16] Meanwhile, the U.S. mediator Amos Hochstein has arrived in Israel from Beirut.

[00:26:21] He said that he sees a real opportunity to end the conflict in Lebanon after the Lebanese government and Hezbollah largely agreed to a U.S. ceasefire proposal.

[00:26:31] The BBC's Yolande Nell.

[00:26:32] Eleven people arrested in Serbia in connection with a roof collapse early this month at a train station.

[00:26:39] It killed 15 people, severely injured two others.

[00:26:42] Prosecutors say the suspects face charges of committing criminal acts against public security, causing public danger, and shoddy construction work.

[00:26:50] The arrests follow a wave of protests that erupted over the November 1st tragedy.

[00:26:56] News and analysis, townhall.com.

[00:26:59] The feds have arrested a Florida man in connection with a plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange this week.

[00:27:06] The FBI says 30-year-old Hareen Abdul-Malik Yanir has been charged with an attempt to use an explosive device to damage or destroy a building used in interstate commerce.

[00:27:16] The FBI began investigating Yanir in February based on a tip that he was storing bomb-making schematics in a storage unit.

[00:27:25] Agents found bomb-making sketches, electronic circuit boards, and more.

[00:27:30] Yanir also told undercover agents he wanted to detonate the bomb the week prior to Thanksgiving.

[00:27:37] Jason Walker reporting.

[00:27:38] Two cable networks with NBC in their names, MSNBC and CNBC, will no longer have any corporate connection to NBC News once a spinoff formally takes effect in about a year.

[00:27:50] Comcast transferring several of its cable businesses into a separate entity.

[00:27:54] More on these stories at townhall.com.

[00:27:57] Why don't we say to the government, writ large, that they have to spend a little bit less?

[00:28:05] Anybody ever had less money this year than you had last?

[00:28:09] Anybody ever having a 1% pay cut?

[00:28:12] You deal with it.

[00:28:13] That's what government needs, a 1% pay cut.

[00:28:15] If you take a 1% pay cut across the board, you have more than enough money to actually pay for the disaster relief.

[00:28:22] But nobody's going to do that because they're fiscally irresponsible.

[00:28:26] Who are they?

[00:28:27] Republicans.

[00:28:28] Who are they?

[00:28:28] Democrats.

[00:28:29] Who are they?

[00:28:30] Virtually the whole body is careless and reckless with your money.

[00:28:35] So the money will not be offset by cuts anywhere.

[00:28:38] The money will be added to the debt, and there will be a day of reckoning.

[00:28:42] What's the day of reckoning?

[00:28:44] The day of reckoning may well be the collapse of the stock market.

[00:28:47] The day of reckoning may be the collapse of the dollar.

[00:28:49] When it comes, I can't tell you exactly, but I can tell you it has happened repeatedly in history when countries ruin their currency.

[00:29:19] Anywhere.

[00:29:20] Join us at LibertyNewsRadio.com.

[00:29:22] Empower your day with the truth, because the truth will set you free.

[00:29:28] LibertyNewsRadio.com.

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[00:30:13] Casting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show.

[00:30:24] Welcome back, everybody.

[00:30:26] I'm Melvin Stahl here with Sam Bushman on Liberty Roundtable.

[00:30:30] We're discussing the great issues of the day, the things that we hopefully want to discuss and be aware of.

[00:30:40] And we're going to shift a little bit into something related.

[00:30:44] And this is the idea of President Trump says he wants to use the military to assist in his plans for mass deportation of illegal immigrants.

[00:30:59] Is this a good idea?

[00:31:01] Is this a bad idea?

[00:31:03] Could this maybe work?

[00:31:04] Should it be applied?

[00:31:07] There's a lot of talk in the various news organizations and people saying, boy, this is really dangerous.

[00:31:14] And there's others that say, you know, it needs to be done and there's a way that could be done.

[00:31:20] Some of the things brought up are, well, you've got the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 or whatever it is.

[00:31:29] And that prohibits the military from being used for law enforcement.

[00:31:34] And then there's others pointing out that, well, there is an exception to that with the Insurrection Act of 1802 or 4 or somewhere around there that says that, well, if there's an invasion and there's unrest, then that can be used.

[00:31:58] So there's a lot of back and forth on this.

[00:32:00] Of course, the optic of, you know, going to get, you know, a housekeeper that has worked for 30 years and maybe is not here legally, that can look kind of bad.

[00:32:15] And that's probably what Trump's opponents would focus on.

[00:32:18] But what do you think, what do you make of all this, Sam?

[00:32:22] I know there's an article on the New American addressing this too, but.

[00:32:27] One of the things that I think is interesting is they're talking about the military being used for some of these massive deportations or whatever.

[00:32:34] And I understand that you can have military at the border.

[00:32:37] I mean, it is the general government's responsibility to protect our borders.

[00:32:40] So I get some of it.

[00:32:41] The problem that I have is are they going to start knocking on doors and dealing with the American people and the public along the way of this?

[00:32:47] Some posse comitatus comes to mind, this idea that you can't have the military dealing with civil, you know, civilian affairs kind of stuff.

[00:32:55] I really think, and we're about to issue a press release over the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association related to this.

[00:33:01] But I think what we need to do is we need to have sheriffs, the chief law enforcement officer in a county, a Cleo in a county.

[00:33:07] There's 3,000 counties that can literally take the lead on this.

[00:33:10] They know who the bad guys are.

[00:33:11] They know how to do so in a meaningful way.

[00:33:14] And, you know, if you want to basically put people in the sheriff's posse to do this and have it be civilian led as opposed to military led, have it local led as opposed to general government led.

[00:33:25] Certainly we can have coordination and the general government has a role in this.

[00:33:29] But if we're not very careful, in my opinion, we cross some very needful protections here.

[00:33:37] And at first glance, it might say, well, we've got a national emergency, Sam, we have to.

[00:33:41] No, but the Constitution was designed for emergencies, not the other way around, folks.

[00:33:45] You don't jettison the Constitution, deal with an emergency, then bring the Constitution back.

[00:33:48] What happens is you lose tremendous rights under these national emergencies guising, you know, pretending to be something bigger than they are.

[00:33:56] So should the military be in U.S. deportations in a limited function?

[00:34:00] Possibly.

[00:34:01] But for the most part, no, it should be local led by sheriffs in coordination with the general government.

[00:34:05] And it should be civilian led.

[00:34:07] And if we need posses where the average American citizen gets involved in meaningful, productive, supportive, volunteer ways, that's great, too.

[00:34:14] We've got to be very careful with this, though, Eldon.

[00:34:19] Yeah, it seems like in a way this is something that's been kind of calculated to put us in a real quandary here.

[00:34:31] Because there's often, you don't have the revolutionaries, they love precedence.

[00:34:37] They love to be able to take something and say, well, it's been done before, and then expand upon it and to transmute it into something that is overtly tyrannical.

[00:34:50] And it seems like this has the potential for that, even if done carefully.

[00:34:55] Although, I'm sure there's many that will argue that, well, there is a need there, especially with those that are maybe in cartels, you know, people that are invading our country that suppose, you know, the highest level of danger to our public.

[00:35:18] So, you know, it ends up being a question of are these considered maybe in a way combatants, some of these folks that would justify a military response?

[00:35:34] Or, you know, how these different folks will be treated and kind of the legal status of them as well with regard to any, you might say, enforcement of law or attempts to remove them.

[00:35:52] Well, and that's why I say I get some of this if you have hardened criminals in America and the general government has a responsibility to take care of the border.

[00:36:00] I mean, to some degree, I understand. But the general government failed when it came to protecting our borders.

[00:36:06] Once they're in the United States, though, they're in literally constitutional jurisdictions, constitutional counties and states which are sovereign republics.

[00:36:13] So the general government has limited involvement here. Now, they can be involved. Don't get me wrong.

[00:36:18] I'm not saying there's no place for them, but at some point there's a balance here.

[00:36:21] And that's why I say what we need is sheriffs in every county to be this locally led, nationally coordinated kind of plan where it's like, hey, we can all work together.

[00:36:30] The governors, the sheriffs, the general government, you know, the Border Patrol, we can all work together on this, but we've got to keep it civilian focused and we've got to keep it military in the background.

[00:36:41] We've got to keep it locally led by the county sheriff. I mean, whose jurisdictions are we talking about?

[00:36:47] The sheriffs in where states that are constitutional republics.

[00:36:51] We need the sheriff and the governor to be the lead people on this in their states and in their counties.

[00:36:56] And we cannot overlook or forget this.

[00:37:00] Yeah, that's a very good point.

[00:37:02] It seems like there's, you know, there's been a breakdown over the years of understanding of people, the proper roles of various parts of our government.

[00:37:13] And, you know, it illustrates itself when you ask many people, you say, you know, a constitutionalist would say, well, you know, this is something that would be more appropriately handled by the state or local government.

[00:37:28] And they ask, what's the difference in their mind?

[00:37:32] They haven't been introduced at all, even to the idea of federalism or any of that.

[00:37:38] They just think the government is the government, which is a very, you know, they haven't been introduced into the basic concepts of Americanism, which is quite dangerous.

[00:37:51] But it's even worse.

[00:37:53] And it starts with separation of powers, checks and balances, jurisdictional limitations and so on and so on and so on.

[00:37:58] Right.

[00:37:59] Yes.

[00:38:00] Yes, very much so.

[00:38:01] And, you know, now, of course, we're flooding our country with people from other countries where there is no concept of that.

[00:38:10] Most countries, they, you know, they have basically provinces.

[00:38:16] These are administrative subunits of the central national government.

[00:38:21] They are not independent, sovereign states in any sense.

[00:38:27] And so, for example, in Russia, President Putin can just go and say, hey, Mr. Mayor of, you know, Perm or Novosibirsk or whatever, you're fired.

[00:38:42] Well, that, you know, at least we have that level of understanding United States where we understand the president cannot do that here.

[00:38:49] Right.

[00:38:50] But, yes.

[00:38:51] Anyway, we need to keep an eye on this ball, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:38:54] I'm asking for it to be sheriff and governor led, supported by the general government in meaningful ways for coordination.

[00:39:02] It is across state and county lines.

[00:39:04] So I do get that there's a role for all to play in this thing.

[00:39:07] But we need to be very careful that it does not become military-centric or military led.

[00:39:12] We need to also be very careful that it doesn't become, quote, presidential or general government led either for the very reasons that I point out.

[00:39:20] In my humble opinion, a judge went off the rails in Wyoming.

[00:39:24] Headline says two abortion bans in Wyoming are unconstitutional.

[00:39:29] A judge rules.

[00:39:31] I guess Pam Bella, New York Times, writes this article.

[00:39:37] And basically they say this.

[00:39:38] The ruling found that two state laws, one barring use of abortion pills and the other one banning all forms of abortion, violated the state's constitution's fundamental right to make health care decisions.

[00:39:54] Now, I find that fascinating.

[00:39:55] I find it problematic in many ways, but that's the ruling.

[00:40:00] I think that needs to be challenged everywhere.

[00:40:03] What's going on?

[00:40:04] You live in Wyoming, so this is directly pertinent to you, Elman.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] So back in 2012, if you remember the context of this, shortly after Obamacare, or sometimes called the Affordable Care Act, was enacted,

[00:40:19] there was concerns in many states about the individual mandate that subsequently was repealed, but the rest of Obamacare was left in place,

[00:40:29] the individual mandate for purchasing health insurance.

[00:40:33] And a lot of states said, you know, we're going to put a constitutional amendment that says we have the right to make our own health care decisions.

[00:40:41] At the time, that, you know, it was pretty clear.

[00:40:43] It sounded pretty clear.

[00:40:44] But it has been taken, of course, and transmuted as many things by the left.

[00:40:53] And maybe a pickup on that.

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[00:43:02] Okay, so back to the situation in Wyoming with this judge out of Jackson Hole of all places,

[00:43:11] ruling that these two statutes or laws from the Wyoming legislature addressing abortion,

[00:43:18] banning abortion in various ways, are unconstitutional according to the Wyoming Constitution.

[00:43:23] Well, so the judge cited a provision from an amendment to the Wyoming Constitution enacted in 2012 by the people of Wyoming

[00:43:34] that said that people of Wyoming have the right to make their health care decisions without government interference.

[00:43:41] And, of course, as the left often does, and this judge had, you know, indicated strongly and ruled,

[00:43:53] indicating that she is pro-abortion many times.

[00:43:57] And, of course, they shopped around and tried to find the most liberal district in this state,

[00:44:01] which would be Jackson, Wyoming, of course, where all the millionaires and stuff hang up.

[00:44:06] And she ruled that, oh, the Wyoming Constitution says you have the right to make your health care decisions.

[00:44:12] Well, abortion is health care.

[00:44:15] So, therefore, any bans on abortion are unconstitutional.

[00:44:19] And so that's where that stands.

[00:44:22] So those laws are not being enforced at this point.

[00:44:25] And the governor, Mark Gordon, has indicated that he intends to appeal this to the Wyoming Supreme Court.

[00:44:34] Now, that is a different venue and could well be overturned, but we will see.

[00:44:41] We certainly pray for the overturn.

[00:44:43] Not a guarantee.

[00:44:44] The whole purpose of government is life, liberty, property, not death.

[00:44:48] And right now, basically, the government's being used as a pro-death agenda against the legislative bodies.

[00:44:54] And here's the point.

[00:44:55] Can the judge just change the law?

[00:44:57] To me, the judge needs to interpret the law as it stands.

[00:45:01] And if they say it's unconstitutional, you can't just negate it.

[00:45:03] You've got to go back and say, hey, state of Wyoming Congress or legislative body,

[00:45:08] you've got to revisit this thing because it's unconstitutional.

[00:45:10] But just to dismiss it out of hand or just to, hey, all you've got to do is send it back to Congress and say,

[00:45:15] listen, I'm telling you right now, you can't leave it the way it currently is written.

[00:45:18] They don't have the right just to change the law and determine what the law is as opposed to, hey, if it's unconstitutional,

[00:45:25] we'll then take that law out.

[00:45:27] But Congress of Wyoming, you've got to fix this, right?

[00:45:32] Yeah, this would seem to be an obvious misinterpretation or twisting of the intent of the legislature and the voters

[00:45:42] at the time in 2012 when that amendment to the Wyoming Constitution was enacted to claim that health care includes the idea of abortion.

[00:45:54] Well, basically, this sets a precedent for saying that anything that you might hire a doctor or surgeon to do is health care.

[00:46:05] OK, well, euthanasia, you want to commit suicide, murder, everything else.

[00:46:09] Right.

[00:46:10] You're going to kill the son, right?

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:12] OK, you hire a doctor to murder your neighbor because you argue that your mental health is…

[00:46:19] My mental health stability dependent on getting rid of that neighbor for crying out loud.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:23] Yeah.

[00:46:23] Now, we know this sounds absurd, folks, but that's where they go.

[00:46:26] Think about it.

[00:46:27] If it was 20 years ago and I were to say to you, men are going to dress up like women and pretend they're women

[00:46:32] and they're going to get their whole birth certificate and driver's license and everything else changed to the women,

[00:46:35] then they're going to roll into the bathroom with the men.

[00:46:37] I mean, the men are going to roll into the bathroom with the women.

[00:46:39] You guys would laugh at me.

[00:46:40] Now it's reality.

[00:46:41] We're facing it right now.

[00:46:43] In Congress, they've got a bill to prevent this going on in Congress as we speak.

[00:46:47] So our prayers are that they overturn this abortion ban.

[00:46:50] I wanted to just highlight it and say, wow, folks, the battle is in the states

[00:46:55] and the people that need to stand up for life and morality.

[00:46:58] I'll tell you that right now.

[00:46:59] But we've got issues on the local level, as we've proven in the state of Wyoming,

[00:47:03] but we've also got international issues to worry about.

[00:47:05] The International Criminal Court, the ICC now, just took the unprecedented legal step this morning or today,

[00:47:12] issuing arrest warrants, believe it or not, for Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu

[00:47:19] and former Defense Minister Yo-ha Gallant or however you say the guy's name.

[00:47:25] This is the first time it has ever issued such warrants against leaders of a democratic country.

[00:47:31] David Drummer over at WND.com with the piece.

[00:47:34] This is big because if you start letting international folks start grabbing leaders that they claim are whatever.

[00:47:41] Now, I'm not defending Netanyahu, but I am saying what gives this international criminal court authority over all nations

[00:47:48] to just absolutely call for a sovereign state's arrest?

[00:47:52] We're going on some very uncharted, unprecedented, dangerous territory, Eldon.

[00:47:58] Yeah, and right when the International Criminal Court and the Rome Statute that formed it were put into place,

[00:48:05] and before that at the New American and the John Burr Society,

[00:48:08] we were warning people that, you know, the UN wants to become a world government.

[00:48:14] Here is Exhibit A, how they want to do that.

[00:48:17] They want to have their own criminal judicial court that claims the authority

[00:48:23] and exercises the authority to try and arrest even public officials of nations.

[00:48:30] Obviously, that is an attack, a blatant attack on the sovereignty and independence of any country,

[00:48:36] including the United States of America.

[00:48:39] And if you think they can do it to Israel, then they can do it to the United States.

[00:48:43] Well, and the United States is one of the greatest partners of Israel.

[00:48:46] Therefore, hey, will they instantly be tied into that?

[00:48:49] I'm suggesting they'll probably basically come after Trump and say,

[00:48:52] hey, same applies to you for backing Israel.

[00:48:55] You're a partner with them, and they're coming after Trump with this thing.

[00:48:57] If you're not careful, write it down and remember who told you this first.

[00:49:00] Got it?

[00:49:01] Yep, that's right.

[00:49:03] And so, you know, one of many, many reasons we should get out of the United Nations immediately,

[00:49:11] we should get out.

[00:49:12] Call your congressmen, demand that they support the Defund Act to get us out of the United Nations.

[00:49:19] There is a bill in the House.

[00:49:21] Chip Roy is a sponsor.

[00:49:23] There's a bill in the Senate.

[00:49:25] Mike Lee is the sponsor.

[00:49:27] Call them, visit their offices, say we need to get out of the U.N.

[00:49:31] The ICC is part of the U.N. system.

[00:49:34] Look out, folks.

[00:49:35] I know it sounds like, wow, you know, but I'm telling you right now it gets very scary.

[00:49:39] I'm not defending Israel, but I am defending the sovereignty of nations,

[00:49:42] and I'm also challenging the authority of this, quote, international criminal court.

[00:49:45] It's a criminal activity enterprise worldwide, and it must be stopped.

[00:49:49] I'm telling you right now they'll start reaching into America and grabbing leaders

[00:49:53] if you're not very, very careful indeed.

[00:49:55] And if they can grab the leaders, they can grab you and I too.

[00:49:58] So be very aware that your freedom of speech and everything else will be at stake with this thing.

[00:50:02] You know, all evil rolls downhill if you're not careful, so look out for that.

[00:50:06] On a final note, Trump proposing Linda McMahon to lead the education department,

[00:50:11] and he says she will dismantle it.

[00:50:14] Do you think they're going to get that done and push education to the states, Ellen?

[00:50:19] It seems like if they do dismantle it, it would be putting the functions of the education department

[00:50:27] into other departments, unfortunately.

[00:50:30] I like to be optimistic.

[00:50:30] In other words, just shift it and pretend they've got a win.

[00:50:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:35] Now, maybe that would, in a way, that would be a win.

[00:50:38] But, you know, the other side of this is, well, there's no constitutional authority for the education department

[00:50:47] in and of itself.

[00:50:48] So the president could refuse to, you know, in any way he can,

[00:50:54] to support, organize the Department of Education,

[00:50:58] because, you know, there's nothing in the Constitution that authorizes it,

[00:51:02] even though Congress formed it.

[00:51:05] On the other side of that, Congress is part of this problem, too,

[00:51:09] and what their duty should be is to pass legislation to abolish the Department of Education

[00:51:16] so that, you know, whatever happens, whenever, you know, in four years when Trump is no longer president,

[00:51:22] that they don't just come back and say,

[00:51:25] okay, well, we're bringing it back or, you know, like, act like nothing happened.

[00:51:33] But we will see.

[00:51:34] His first term didn't seem to do much so far as getting rid of the Department of Education.

[00:51:40] I know people are optimistic about a second term.

[00:51:43] We will see.

[00:51:44] I don't have a crystal ball on that, but he could certainly be a great spokesperson.

[00:51:50] Are you optimistic about a second term?

[00:51:51] Do you like the picks that he's made, et cetera?

[00:51:54] Overall, yeah, although there are some concerning ones as well.

[00:51:59] But, you know, it's he seems to indicate that he's serious about especially certain items of business.

[00:52:10] So, well, our prayers are that Trump is successful.

[00:52:13] We'll do all that we can to see his success.

[00:52:16] I believe in Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk reducing spending.

[00:52:20] I think that's vital.

[00:52:21] And I think, you know, we can talk all day about how we want to, you know, deal with government and everything else and inflation.

[00:52:26] You've got to reduce spending.

[00:52:28] Rand Paul has been the leader for that.

[00:52:30] I'm surprised they didn't put him in charge of the Treasury Department.

[00:52:33] But all I can tell you is we've really – I mean, look, the key to this exercise is reduce spending.

[00:52:37] And then if you could get rid of regulation, if we can really do the things Donald Trump is talking about in meaningful ways, if he doesn't just run into a buzzsaw and get stuck like he did the border wall.

[00:52:46] I know he says he got the border wall done for, you know, significantly.

[00:52:49] I don't think so.

[00:52:50] I mean, I think that's a pipe dream.

[00:52:52] We didn't get near the wall done or else the border wouldn't be leaking like a sieve like it is.

[00:52:55] You can't claim the border wall was for the – you know, we got so much done on the border wall.

[00:52:59] But yet, hey, the border leaks like a sieve.

[00:53:01] One of the two isn't true.

[00:53:02] So I pray that he's successful in this, but I at this point feel like there's a lot of red tape there.

[00:53:09] And how we're going to deal with that, time will only tell.

[00:53:12] But I know this.

[00:53:13] As former Congressman Steve Stockman says, you've only got about a year to get this done.

[00:53:17] The next year you're running on what you've accomplished in Congress.

[00:53:20] And that's the House of Representatives, all 435 members of them.

[00:53:23] And then it's downhill from there because then you've got the presidential elections coming up after that.

[00:53:27] And if you don't have your first year of successes to point to, you's in trouble.

[00:53:31] And you might – and historically you'll lose the House to the Democrats in 2020 – what?

[00:53:37] Six, I guess it is, right?

[00:53:40] Well, yeah, that's a good point.

[00:53:42] You've got to be, I guess, politically smart and make sure you get things done in a timely manner just because that's kind of the reality there.

[00:53:51] Anyone just shut down the IRS is what I'm saying.

[00:53:55] That would be nice, wouldn't it?

[00:53:56] Oh, man.

[00:53:59] Yeah.

[00:54:00] There's so many things that we could shut down.

[00:54:02] Do the work is all I'm saying.

[00:54:03] Do the work.

[00:54:04] That's what they say about racism.

[00:54:07] Do the work.

[00:54:08] You've got to do the work.

[00:54:09] All right.

[00:54:11] Eldon Stahl, thank you so much.

[00:54:14] Oh, thank you, Sam.

[00:54:16] It's always great to be on.

[00:54:18] Eldon doing a phenomenal job, ladies.

[00:54:20] I'm giving a field coordinator for the John Birch Society.

[00:54:22] Become a member today, JBS.org.

[00:54:24] Their incredible New American magazine as well, thenewamerican.com.

[00:54:27] Check that out.

[00:54:28] Check out my videos, too.

[00:54:29] They're incredible.

[00:54:30] They're new shorts.

[00:54:30] Available at libertyroundtable.com and lovingliberty.net, our nationally syndicated radio network.

[00:54:35] To all of you, thanks so much.

[00:54:36] And God save the Republic of the United States of America.

[00:54:41] God save the Republic of America.

[00:54:41] God save the Republic of America.

[00:54:41] God save the Republic of America.