[00:00:04] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Abraham Lincoln, 1861. We'll get to that coming up. Braver Angels has grown into one of the largest grassroots organizations in the country.
[00:00:35] A country dedicated to bridging partisan divides. Workshops, debates, training programs, all 50 states and more in their conventions coming up in Philadelphia. Celebrating 1776 to 2026. Braver Angels renews the American promise in Philadelphia, ladies and gentlemen, just ahead of my birthday, the 4th of July. How do you like that? It's coming up the 25th through the 28th of June. I'll be there in Philadelphia. Hope you can join us as well.
[00:01:02] Call BraverAngels.org to learn more. David Lapp with us, one of the co-founders of Braver Angels. He's the director of the Citizens Commission on Immigration. And I really like that topic. It's a very controversial topic, but it doesn't have to be. And I put together a justice and mercy plan, as we've talked about earlier in the broadcast. But I want to focus on some friends of mine who are doing a marvelous work as well. It's a group called LovingLiberty.net.
[00:01:31] And they have some people there that are putting together an immigrant talk show, believe it or not. It's a TV series. And the design or the goal is to say, hey, if you want to know what's right about America, ask an immigrant. And ask an immigrant is the name of the show. And their goal is to say, you know what? These people don't just take America for granted. They've been other places and seen how it works around the world. And they're like, man, America is this blessed, wonderful place.
[00:02:01] And so the show basically goes and learns about their culture a little bit, about their food, about their, you know, some of the historical landmarks in their country, some incredible details about what's happening from where these people come from. But then how they got here, why they're here, what they love about America, what the contrast they see is. It's not all political. It's cultural. It makes things personal where you understand these people to where, hey, they're not just some different color enemy or whatever you want to frame it as. They're God's children, too.
[00:02:31] They're people. And they matter. And their hearts and their hopes and their dreams can be shared where we understand their stories and their celebratory viewpoints and their gratitude for the American way and more. And it's called Ask an Immigrant. And so if you want to know what's wrong with America, ask an immigrant. If you want to learn their stories and why they're here, ask them, because many of them have incredible stories, David. Yes.
[00:02:59] What I was talking about earlier about this Long Island workshop where they were able to find some points of agreement. One of the people that she's the blue co-chair of the Braver Angels Long Island Alliance. So each Braver Angels local chapter, what we call an alliance, has a red co-chair and a blue co-chair. Herb Leip is a retired history teacher, conservative. He's the red co-chair.
[00:03:26] Swati Srivastava, she is an immigrant from India, came here on an H-1B visa, stayed. And she is the blue co-chair of the alliance. I bring her up because she is, when she makes her case for why we should, why there should be a path to citizenship for unauthorized immigrants, for at least some unauthorized immigrants who are living here.
[00:03:53] It's because she believes that if you are here in the country, we want you to be acting as full citizens who see yourself as a full participant in the American project. And for her herself, Swati, she is extraordinarily grateful for America. She came from, you know, developing part of India. And she has found a lot of opportunity in America.
[00:04:23] And she loves this country. You know, when you look at her email profile picture, she's got an American flag, you know, wrapped behind her. And she loves America as much as anyone that I know. And she and actually part of her idea is if you've been here for 10 plus years, this is where they were able to find agreement on that number. The different people will find different different points there.
[00:04:51] But what her idea is, if you've been here for 10 plus years and then you would have three years to ensure that they know English and to participate in civics classes. And then you understand the American value and then you're ready to be a part of that, right? You're ready to be part of that. And then you would have an opportunity to become a citizen. Now, again, that's just one idea that's out there.
[00:05:18] But they were able to find some agreement on that. And the point to emphasize there is that there's all – I think the point here is that you mentioned this earlier, and I think it's really true, is that for some of our most difficult and naughty, thorny conflicts, there is a path forward. There is a way forward.
[00:05:38] The way to do that, I would say, is not by Republicans saying, OK, we just need to defeat Democrats and win all – win Congress, win the White House, and then we're going to be able to do what we want to do. Or by Democrats, vice versa, Democrats saying, we just need to defeat the Republicans and then finally we can find the way forward. I don't think that's it because the reality is we're about half and half and we're probably going to be that way for a long time. What if we jettison the red-blue way and find the American way?
[00:06:09] And found the American way. David, what's best for America? Immigrants bring talent. They bring money. They bring skill sets. They bring different viewpoints. They bring a lot to America. And let's not jettison that reality either. Let's say, hey, what is best for America? And what is best for America? Look, bringing in criminals is not best for America. No one will say that. Right, and there's broad agreement about that, and citizens are finding that agreement.
[00:06:36] Like, yes, absolutely, we should deport people with violent criminal records and be ensuring that we have a secure border so that those kind of people are not able to pass through. Now, a little kid that's hungry that steals some food is not a criminal. They're hungry. There's a big difference. Right. Violent criminal activity, we need to learn. We can't just say, oh, they're a criminal because they're here. They cross this line, this border, so they're a criminal. They're a bad guy. I get that they've done something illegal, but they're not a criminal.
[00:07:06] And I know that's, you know, Tom Holman and company might disagree with me on that. And I back Tom Holman, a lot of what he's trying to accomplish. But I think what we need to do is find a way forward that brings people together with hope and trust and confidence that we'll have justice and mercy, that we will do it the American way. And the founding fathers, for example, put you had to be a certain age to be president. You had to be a certain age to be a congressperson or whatever, senator.
[00:07:32] And they wanted you to be in the country for a certain amount of time, too, because they wanted you to understand the dream. That's right. They wanted you to understand the dream. And I got to tell you a story. And it relates to our upcoming Braver Angels convention that I know you wanted to go into. So the co-chairs of this Braver Angels convention in Philadelphia next week, a remarkable story here, Sam. So in the 2000s, listeners might recall the so-called Gang of Eight bill that was a big comprehensive immigration bill.
[00:08:02] Well, so Jim Robb is a Braver Angels volunteer. He's been working on immigration for a long time. He's a conservative. And he was in the 2000s fighting this Gang of Eight bill. And he and his organization were a big part of the reason why that legislation failed. On the other side is Diego Sanchez. He came here as a child with his parents. So he's a DACA kid.
[00:08:27] He actually worked with other college kids before there was DACA to advocate for DACA. And they met with President Obama. They met with President – before Trump was president, they met with Trump and Trump Tower to talk about their stories. So while Jim Robb was fighting these things that Diego was advocating for, Diego was advocating for it. Now, here's the thing, Sam.
[00:08:57] Diego and Jim, they met about two years ago at a Braver Angels convened event. They were sitting next to each other. They traded business cards. And they said, let's get to know one another. Let's hear each other's stories. And let's see if there's any agreement we can find. They became leaders of our Citizens Commission on Immigration. They're part of the leadership team. And they have been working to convene the grassroots workshops.
[00:09:25] They've been working to convene what we call the Immigration Policy Roundtable, which is a group of about two dozen national immigration leaders like themselves, from conservative to liberal to in the center. And they're finding points of agreement. And they are chairing – they're the co-chairs of this year's convention. They've become great friends and colleagues. And they still have really important points of difference in immigration.
[00:09:51] They're not just like – I'm not sure that either one of them has fundamentally changed how they view immigration. But they have learned that there is significant overlap and that they can figure some things out by working together. And ladies and gentlemen, again, what I want is what's best for America. If we get rid of all the people that work on farms, we're in trouble, folks. We just are. Acknowledge that reality.
[00:10:20] We're in big trouble. So how do we bring this issue forward? How do we let all boats rise together? How do we come out with a win-win-win idea? We can do it, folks. All right, David Lapp is with me. And he is with Braver Angels. He's one of the co-founders. And for the last 10 years, he's been working on this stuff. I commend him for his work. We're not enemies. But friends, we must not be enemies. Abraham Lincoln, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:10:48] When we come back, I want to talk more about this and solutions. They've got a convention coming up. I'm going to be there. Hope you'll be there as well. BraverAngels.org. This is a battle. A battle between truth and deceit. A battle between forces that would enslave this country in darkness. And between a media that wants to present you with the truth. We are being censored. America's news outlets no longer provide the truth.
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[00:11:43] to acknowledge and defend the truth that man is endowed with rights not by our fellow men but by God. The Foundation maintains a two-fold focus. First, litigation within state and federal courts. Second, education. Conducting seminars to teach the necessity and importance of acknowledging God in law and government. How can you help? Please make a tax-deductible contribution allowing foundation attorneys to continue the fight.
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[00:12:40] Don't forget Sheriff Mack. And history will not forget braver angels standing together for the sacred cause of liberty, ladies and gentlemen. It all comes down to agency. How are you going to choose to behave? How are you going to treat those around you? Love your God and love your neighbors. Kind of my top two. And so we got to work on that, ladies and gentlemen. It's important, important, important. We're talking to David Lapp about the convention coming up for braverangels.org.
[00:13:08] It's coming up the 25th through the 28th in Philadelphia. It's going to be a university, right? It's going to be a temple university in Philadelphia on America's 250th anniversary. All right. And what's going to happen? There's going to be a hall with a bunch of different booths where people can kind of represent what they believe in. You're one of the unique groups that are going to have liberals and conservatives in the halls together, right? Right.
[00:13:34] So at the braverangels convention, there will be an about even number of red and blue delegates and about 20% of delegates who don't lean either way. And we're going to be debating, discussing the issues, including immigration. We're going to be hearing from some inspiring speakers. We're going to, for instance, one of the things, there's a big debate. A braverangels debate is one of which you're not trying to defeat the other side.
[00:14:03] It's a collective search for wisdom and the truth of the issue. And so there's going to be a debate between four immigration leaders, two who lean conservative, two who lean liberal. The resolution is on resolved. We need immigrants to fill jobs in the U.S. We'll have some people who are taking the argument for that and some people who are taking the argument the other way. And we'll see, you know, what emerges.
[00:14:31] There's other sessions in which delegates can participate as participants in a common ground workshop or they can participate in debates. We'll hear about, we'll hear from some of these leaders who are on the Immigration Policy Roundtable, national leaders who are finding agreement on immigration.
[00:14:54] If you want to learn about how an initiative called Citizen-Led Solutions, which is all about challenges that people see in their communities and then they want to work together across political difference to find solutions for those local challenges. Citizen-Led Solutions. It's a Braver Angels initiative. You can learn about how you can get involved with that.
[00:15:15] You can learn about how you can get involved or start a Braver Angels alliance in your community and taking action at the local level to address our problems and practice courageous citizenship. All right.
[00:15:31] One of the things that I find interesting about Braver Angels and one of the things that really made me want to be part of it, made me want to get involved and made me want to promote it, attend your convention and everything else, is this idea that, you know, most people believe for us to agree, David, I've got to compromise and jettison some of my beliefs. Jettison who I am or what my core is. I've got to put that on the altar of getting along. And that, I believe, is an absolute misnomer.
[00:15:58] You guys stand tall and say, no, you don't have to do that, Sam. It's how you deliver it that's really the discussion. It's whether you have an open mind to allow other people to have their views and possibly consider them. When you do that, Sam, you become part of the solution, even if you hold on to your views. It's okay for you to stand tall. It's okay for you to stand your ground as you see it. But what you've got to be willing to do is have an open mind and listen to others and give them a chance and not hold it against them if they don't come your way.
[00:16:27] That's really the key to Braver Angels, right? Absolutely. And, you know, honestly, it's kind of boring if we'd all just try to meet in the middle, in the center. Because then, you know, there's a way in which, I mean, look, I'm from the Old Order Amish in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Old Order Amish are very distinct. By the way, the Bushman family is all from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, too, just so you know. Oh, my goodness. Well, we got to talk about that connection, Sam.
[00:16:57] The Old Order Amish, of course, are one of our most distinctive communities in America. And impressive, just I might add. And impressive, right. And we have found a way. And we have found a way in our big pluralistic country of ours for the Amish to be able to be fully themselves and fully a part of the American project in their own way.
[00:17:21] And there's been conflict, you know, like, there was, you know, as recently as like, I think it was 1968, there was the Wisconsin v. Yoder Supreme Court case, where the state of Wisconsin wanted to require Amish to send their kids to high school. And the Amish said, no, we only want to send them the eighth grade, and then we want them to go work on the farms and so forth. Well, the Amish won that case.
[00:17:43] And that was a case study in which America, we made some accommodations to say, okay, how can we be as pluralistic of a country as possible while yet preserving our American identity? And so the point here is that I mentioned that because the Amish are fully Amish and they are themselves. And we want the Amish to be themselves.
[00:18:11] And I think that's how we should think about it politically as well. We want people who are strongly conservative, people who are strongly liberal and coming from their own experiences to speak freely and fully without fear about their convictions. And we want to do it peacefully. We want to do it in a way in which we're honoring the dignity of each other. And we're going to do it robustly, right? We're not going to hold back on the disagreement.
[00:18:39] So we're going to argue powerfully with each other. But in a way that says, you know what? We also want to make sure, David, when you disagree, let's say you have a hard belief that you – and let's say that you meet with us over time in whatever group you're in. And you kind of realize that, you know what, maybe your hardcore stance isn't as right as you thought it was. Maybe you've broadened your horizons a little bit and you kind of go, wow. You know what? Now, the next problem is what people do is they dig in. They don't want to admit it.
[00:19:07] They don't dare capitulate or dare. But at Brave Rangers, it's okay to go, you know what? I'm going to soften on this a little bit because I see something I didn't understand before. These people aren't the bad people I thought they were. You know what? We broke bread together. We've talked. We've spent time together. And I have tremendous respect for this person. And they think this. And they've given legitimate reasons why they believe what they believe in. And so you know what?
[00:19:36] And I'm kind of a softened person on this or that topic. And it's because of my friendships and because of who I know. And they're not the bad guys anymore. There's only you and me. There's no good guys. There's no bad guys. There's only you and me. And we just disagree. It's like a song from the 70s. I'm an old guy. But I'm just saying at Brave Rangers, you can do that, right? Absolutely. And it happens all the time. You know, when two people, different political mindsets encounter each other.
[00:20:04] I'll give you an example. So at one of our first Brave Rangers events, Greg Smith, he was a former cop, working class guy, a strong Trump supporter. He was sitting next to Khouyar Mustashfi, who's an Iranian immigrant engineer. And, of course, was very much opposed to Trump and had voted for – this was back in 2016 – had voted for Clinton. They were sitting next to each other. And, you know, the war in Iraq is still going on.
[00:20:34] And Greg is thinking about Islamic-inspired – he's thinking about terrorism in the Middle East. And so he says to Khouyar, knowing that Khouyar is a Muslim, he said, Khouyar, tell me about your religion and how you think about all the terrorism that I'm seeing happening in the Middle East. And Khouyar says, well, you know what? My religion has been hijacked.
[00:21:03] And Greg said, well, mine has too. And he's an evangelical Christian and he feels like, you know, people wrongly view evangelical Christians. And he says, mine has too. The two of them started this wonderful conversation. It ended with Greg saying this, hey, Khouyar, I'll attend a mosque with you to better understand your religion and tradition. You attend my Christian church with me so you can better understand where I'm coming from. We're not trying to convert each other here.
[00:21:29] We're trying to better understand each other and to see where each other is coming from. And they did it. And they did it. And they developed this years-long friendship where, you know, Greg, you know, was having a – sometimes having a hard time understanding where Democrats are coming up, coming up on something. He'd call Khouyar and say, Khouyar, help me make sense of this. You know, and Khouyar would do the opposite. So that kind of friendship, that kind of civic friendship is, I think, what our country needs. Amen.
[00:21:59] I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some nickname us the Mormons. And I've got a deal with a Catholic friend of mine. And here's the deal. We don't know who's right for sure. He thinks I'm not right and I think he's not right. But we agree to agree that, you know what? After we both die, if the Catholics are right, I'm joining. And if the Mormons are right, he's joining. What do you think of that? I think that's the way to go. I think Cherry – If neither of us are right, we're in trouble. And neither of us are right, we're in trouble.
[00:22:28] I think that's the way to go. You've found the path forward. Anyway, there you have it. I just thought that was really important, ladies and gentlemen, to focus on. You know, they always say don't talk about religion and politics at the dinner table. With Braver Angels, you can learn to talk about any of those issues, finances, politics, religion, at the kitchen table, the dinner table, because you'll learn to do it in a way that's productive.
[00:22:53] You'll learn to do it in ways that are mutually beneficial, in ways that bring people together, not divide. That's why Braver Angels has grown into one of the largest organizations in the country at all 50 states. To learn more. To join their convention. Or if you can't make the convention, you're going to have some of the speeches online where people can watch too, right? It will be, yeah, on our Braver Angels YouTube channel. And some of it will be covered by C-SPAN as well. They'll be covering some of the sessions. Let's go.
[00:23:23] All right, David Lapp, ladies and gentlemen, co-founder. How did you get together really quick with some of these people to co-found this and get this cranked up? How did it change from an idea to reality? David Blankenhorn is the founding president. Bill Doherty, fellow co-founder, and I, we started Braver Angels. It was right after the 2016 election, days afterward, David Blankenhorn already had the idea for the organization.
[00:23:51] He said, hey, let's bring together 10 people who just voted for Trump, 10 people who just voted for Clinton, and let's spend a weekend together. And we did. That's the genesis, ladies and gentlemen. Braver Angels is the result. BraverAngels.org. And I'm delighted to be part of it. I'm going to the convention. I will be reporting from there. And a whole lot more. So thank you for watching, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:24:18] If we can bring peace to the nation, if we can bring people together, even if you're not 100% united, at least if you're civil. By the way, my book's almost done, A Clarion Call for Civility. So keep an eye out for that as well, ladies and gentlemen. We've got a lot cooking. Bright minds think alike. And we're on the same page. We'd like you to join us. BraverAngels.org to learn more. I'm Sam Bushman. Thank you, David. God save our grand old republic.