[00:00:05] Broadcasting live from atop the Rocky Mountains, the crossroads of the West, you are listening to the Liberty Roundtable Radio Talk Show. Happy to have you along, my fellow Americans, Sam Bushman, talking politics. How's that, ladies and gentlemen?
[00:00:24] We're going to be talking to Elizabeth Dahl. She happens to be the director at Braver Angels, and it's the Braver Angels Politics Program. She leads the way for their politics initiative, helping Americans engage more constructively in the political process despite disagreements. The work focuses on practical skills for preventing the polarization that takes place.
[00:00:54] You know, we want to be able to work together. We want citizens to move beyond stereotypes. We want workshops, trainings, and we really want to help people understand we can disagree and be agreeable in doing so. This perspective that she's been working on literally for the last eight years gives her an incredible vantage point into the polarization that have taken place,
[00:01:15] and most importantly, what we can do about them. She'll be at the convention coming up, the 25th through the 28th in Philadelphia at the incredible Temple University there. Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome to Liberty RoundTable Podcast. Hi. Thank you, Sam. I'm glad to be here. Tell me about you before you got involved with Braver Angels really quick. Give me a thumbnail of who are you? I was in politics before I came to Braver Angels.
[00:01:41] I have been in politics for a very long time. So I did political consulting and campaign management, and I've filled basically every role that there is to fill on a political campaign. You win some, you lose some. You lose more than you win in Western Washington State as a conservative. But it is what it is. I worked hard for good candidates and won where I could even in swing districts.
[00:02:07] So I saw polarization really starting to tear people apart. It turns out that when you are a young woman canvassing at doors, people are really itching to tell you their life stories and to treat you as a representative of young people everywhere.
[00:02:28] And so people just started telling me about all of the relationships that they had lost as a result of politics and asking me to explain why their daughter, who was also a quote unquote young person, had cut them off. And I thought that was really bad. I grew up in more of a rural community. And it's not government that meets our needs. It's us.
[00:02:51] And if we were not talking to each other because of politics, how would we ever meet each other's needs in a crisis? How would we know what each other's needs were? How would we be able to come together and effectively resolve a crisis? And so I started trying to figure out what was causing that and if there was anything I could do about it and decided that I thought that distrust was at the root of it and that I could do something because I had friends on both sides of the aisle.
[00:03:21] I could bring people together and help them better understand each other. So I started organizing dinners between Republican and Democratic women. And that turned into running across Braver Angels. It was better angels back then. A friend of someone who attended a dinner I pulled together invited me to a red blue workshop. And I said, oh, this is what I was trying to invent. There's already national infrastructure.
[00:03:50] I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I'll be a spoke in this one. And the rest is kind of history. Wow, I love it. It's a great story. I think it matters. You know, I really I've been in politics for a long time as a talk show host. I don't have a party affiliation of any kind. But yet I understand in some ways I lean quite conservative and other ways not so much. I really lean constitutional. I try to walk down constitutional road and I'm neither left or right of the Constitution. If it's constitutional, I love it. If it's not, I don't like it.
[00:04:19] So that's kind of where I stand just for a disclosure point of view. But what's interesting to me about that discussion is I noticed, though, that, you know, people could disagree. And it got crazy. It's always got crazy a little bit, but not so divisive to where we talk past each other or we won't even talk. But in 2016, something changed, it seems. And I wrote an article in late, I think, 2015, early 2016 called A Clarion Call for Civility. And now I'm about to finish my book on the same topic.
[00:04:46] But I bring this up because it seems like something's changed and become much worse in the last decade or so. Did you see that, too? Or what do you think? Yeah, I did see that. Although some of my friends who live in the same place that I do would tell you that the civility long predates 2016. The incivility long predates 2016.
[00:05:10] One of them had her car keyed because she had a Bush 04 sticker on her car all the way back then. So to an extent, it is it's been I think what's true is that it has been escalating for a really long time. And it sort of broke out into the open as something that people were finally willing to acknowledge on both sides of the aisle in 20 after 2016. I get it.
[00:05:40] And I think, you know, part of the problem is the lack of trust. I think part of the problem is the media seems to drive a wedge. Politicians seem to drive a wedge. When we step away from both of those and actually sit down together, that's kind of the genius of Braver Angels, right? It is. Yeah, because we have more in common than we realize.
[00:06:00] And often, even as we strongly disagree on policy, have a lot of shared values and a lot of shared concerns and goals and hopes and dreams and aspirations. And it doesn't mean that we are going to think the same downstream of policy accomplishes those. But we can see each other as fellow Americans who are fighting for similar outcomes, even as we strongly and stridently disagree on how to achieve them.
[00:06:31] Now, I think party is part of the problem. And I've kind of highlighted this over the years of my broadcast experience. And, you know, I think that party first off, the two parties, they're not government. They're private parties. They're private institutions, if you will. And they control a lot of the primaries and a lot of the elections. And they carve up electorates. They do all these different things. And to me, they're a great concern. I don't have a party.
[00:06:56] Therefore, I'm half disenfranchised because, yeah, I don't really want to vote in a primary for half the deal or a third of the deal, depending on how many primaries are going on. And the list goes on and on. And George Washington and others kind of warned about this in George Washington's farewell address. He basically said this. I warn you in the most solemn manner against the painful effects of the spirit of party generally. That wording is in his farewell address. That's kind of one of the most important quoted things.
[00:07:24] And he's not saying that people can't affiliate or freely associate. But what he's kind of saying is that at some point parties, people become more loyal to the party than they do to the principles. More loyal to the party than they do the supreme law of the land, the constitution. More loyal to maybe the good old boy network than they might be to certain candidates who are moral or good or better than somebody else and stuff. Anyway, it's a serious issue. And I think that's at the heart of a lot of the deal is like, hey, which team are you on? Oh, you're on the other team?
[00:07:54] Well, then you're the enemy. Kind of an idea. And that spirit of party is kind of the problem. You had some pretty interesting thoughts about this when we kind of cued this up on the break that I really want to share with the audience. Elizabeth? Yeah. So I agree with you that it is it's that spirit of the party that is the serious problem.
[00:08:12] That it is when people become more loyal to party than to principle, more loyal to party and personality than truth and constitution that we really, really lose our way. I think that ironically, actually, I have a pretty interesting different take on this. I think the problem is that parties are too weak, not that parties are too strong. Okay. I think about that.
[00:08:42] So the party apparatus, as I was saying, is it is you're right. It's a private entity that is supposed to be a body of people agreeing to work together on behalf of principles to advance people that match those principles that are written in the platform. The platform changes every four years.
[00:09:05] And it should be, in theory, representative of a huge number of Americans, because most people vote either Republican or Democrat. Most Americans tell you that they lean Republican or Democrat when you ask them a follow up question when Gallup does this every year. And really, those numbers, the number that say they lean Republican or Democrat, have not budged since they began asking this question in the 1970s.
[00:09:33] So a large number of Americans, the vast majority of Americans, over 90%, feel that they are in some way affiliated to a party.
[00:09:46] And yet a tiny fraction of those actually participate in party politics, which means that party politics, particularly as it starts at the grassroots and rolls up, is controlled by the people who have the most time and the most interest in contributing to politics.
[00:10:07] And particularly in our current era, what that means is the angriest, most contemptuous, most polarized fraction of Americans who also tend to be much older than median Americans and have lives that don't necessarily look like the median American life.
[00:10:31] Yeah, they might be retired, they might be a teacher or some kind of a special job where they can, you know, put more time into things or they get kind of backing for some of these things or have political issues that they're encouraged to be involved in. It goes on and on. Ladies and gentlemen, Elizabeth Dahl is with me. She's director of Braver Politics program at braverangels.org. We're talking about the spirit of parties. We're talking about their convention. Coming up, we'll do more in a second.
[00:11:23] We'll be right back. Liberty News Radio dot com. Why don't we say to the government writ large that they have to spend a little bit less? Anybody ever had less money this year than you had last? Anybody ever having a one percent pay cut? You deal with it. That's what government needs, a one percent pay cut. If you take a one percent pay cut across the board, you have more than enough money to actually pay for the disaster relief.
[00:11:50] But nobody's going to do that because they're fiscally irresponsible. Who are they? Republicans. Republicans. Who are they? Democrats. Who are they? Virtually the whole body is careless and reckless with your money. So the money will not be offset by cuts anywhere. The money will be added to the debt and there will be a day of reckoning. What's the day of reckoning? The day of reckoning may well be the collapse of the stock market. The day of reckoning may be the collapse of the dollar.
[00:12:18] When it comes, I can't tell you exactly, but I can tell you it has happened repeatedly in history when countries ruin their currency. I'm Elizabeth Dahl with me, ladies and gentlemen, BraverAngels.org. Go there, check out their incredible convention coming up in Philadelphia. You can watch some of it online or you can attend if you want to go to Temple University. I'm going to be there. Hope you'll be there as well. Elizabeth Dahl will be there.
[00:12:46] And we're talking about parties. And I'm saying that I think parties are a big concern. Elizabeth is saying, you know what, they're a big concern. But she kind of contends that, hey, it's because parties aren't strong enough. And you were finishing that point, Elizabeth. Yeah. So at its core, what it means is that really I think the problem is parties are non-representative as formal operating entities of median American interests.
[00:13:15] And that too few Americans are involved. That you need almost all Americans, all the Americans who affiliate generally to voting for a Republican candidate or a Democratic candidate. Every single one of those, weekly or strongly, should be engaged with their local party and their state party if they have time for that.
[00:13:37] Because that is the way that the parties actually serve as a large organizing body of coalitional groups within the American populace. And can be really representative and create good candidates. Because you have a much broader force of the American people working together and arguing with each other to advance the cause and figure out which candidates best represent them.
[00:14:05] Yeah, so the party is kind of like a train. And we the people need to be the engineer and stick with the train, right? We need to be the engineer and guide the train. Run the train. That's what I mean by stick with the train, right? Yeah. Not just let it run off on its own. You also brought up another interesting point that I want to finish this topic on. And I know we don't have time to vet it completely. But, hey, it's an interesting start. And hopefully it encourages people to realize, you know what? There's all kinds of different opinions coming to Braver Angels. But you're going to learn about those.
[00:14:33] And hopefully it'll let you kind of open your mind a little bit and step back and go, hey, maybe there's a bigger picture than I see. Braverangels.org for that. But you mentioned it's not really so much party that's the problem as much as it's one faction over another. Sharpened by the spirit of revenge, party dissensions, righteous supposed anger. That's what George Washington really was talking about. You had brought that up as well, right?
[00:15:00] Yeah, I think that's the spirit of the parties to my thinking that you were talking about that you see as the problem. It is Federalist No. 10 by James Madison talks about how the design of the republic is to prevent and to try to mitigate the harms of faction. And don't get me wrong, I think that anger is often a motivating emotion. And that's a good thing in some senses.
[00:15:29] Righteous anger is extremely good. As long as it's got a check, I agree. Yes. And that's why the preface of righteous is really, really important. Because anger that is not checked is no longer righteous. And that's really the whole point and purpose of Braver Angels to say, it's fine. And this is one of the reasons that I really believe in Braver Angels and believe they're going to succeed.
[00:15:58] They've been growing. They're in all 50 states. And I want to be part of what they're doing. Because they're not saying abandon your beliefs to get along. They're saying, hold on to your beliefs, but learn to listen. Learn to make your case, deliver your point, whatever you want to call it, respectfully and kindly. Have that righteous anger. But let's have a check on it. And let's learn how to do that appropriately, personally, publicly, privately, everywhere we go. And this is not just talk. This is actual training. It's workshops. It's events.
[00:16:28] It's participating in how to do that. It's making friends that you disagree with. But yet, you know what? Our friendships are greater than the disagreements. And let's talk about the convention and how that's going to kind of play out there with those things in mind, Elizabeth. I am so excited about the convention. The convention is, if not my favorite thing, pretty close to it every time it happens. It is the best time. We have all kinds of events going on.
[00:16:57] And this year, also, all kinds of really incredible speakers. Because I've been involved in Braver Angels for a long time, this is now my third convention. And my first convention, I loved the convention just because it was an opportunity to hang out with all of these really cool people from all over the country that often I had talked to on Zoom, but I'd never met in person.
[00:17:24] And have long arguments about issues in a really respectful way and hear what was bothering people all over the country that was super cool. But now it's finally become kind of the place that I had hoped that it would become when I signed up, which is a place that cool people want to be also. So not only do we have some really awesome, interesting debates and work.
[00:17:50] So I'm running a workout or I'm running two breakout sessions, one on trustworthy elections, kind of continuing some work that I'd done in the last few years with a team on that. And then I also have a breakout session about organizing at the state capitol as Braver Angels.
[00:18:09] How do you show up in red-blue pairs in your own state and go talk to your legislators, asking them to be less contemptuous, asking them to talk with people who disagree with them and build relationships with them and find out how you can trust them, even as you still disagree on a lot of policy? Look for the common ground where they exist. But in your hair, though, you transcend politics, right? I mean, you transcend parties.
[00:18:37] That is the – not necessarily, actually. The idea is that you are representing – you are showing that this is a thing that people in both parties want, more cross-partisan. Yes, exactly. So in one way, it transcends the parties in that we are trying to show that this is not a strictly partisan issue. And on the other hand, it shows that it is also a partisan issue.
[00:19:06] It is just an issue that all partisans agree on, that it doesn't matter. And that's an important overarching reality, though, to say, listen, this matters to both of us. We agree on that, yet we can still advocate for what we believe in. And that's my point about the Braver Angels is I don't have to jettison what I believe in to say this matters to both of us or this matters to all of us or this is a critical issue. I can still have my views on those issues as wrong as I may often be.
[00:19:34] I can still – and that's the beauty of Braver Angels, though, that I think other people don't capture. They have to have an eclipse or not or whatever. This does both, right? Yes, exactly. So we're – like some of the things that we're doing at the convention is debate resolution development workshop. So you want to organize a debate on a hot topic, we got you.
[00:19:55] We will train you on exactly how to do that and how to figure out a high conflict resolution that will draw people from both sides to the table so that you can have a really strong debate that helps people understand all the different perspectives that are on each side of the conflict. And there will be a substantial conflict.
[00:20:20] So in the case of one of the debates that we are doing, we are asking, is the founder's vision for America outdated? You will notice that is designed to be a very high conflict resolution. It is designed to make people want to come argue with it. And that's the whole point.
[00:20:42] The resolution is supposed to be something that people disagree with or agree with and show up because they particularly have something to say about the way that that question was phrased. Yeah, I have a friend who's now passed away, but he used to write this thing on the internet years ago. He's a super liberal, by the way. Very, very liberal. I don't agree with him on anything. But I love to read what he had to say because he created this thing called Argue Thinking Magazine. Oh, cool.
[00:21:11] And the concept was really interesting, argue thinking. So we're going to argue about this, but are you really thinking as we argue? In other words, is it going to be constructive in the end or are we just going to have loggerheads and go away? Are you thinking? The idea was we can argue about this, but at the end, I hope you're thinking and I hope you open your mind more to consider other views. And anyway, I thought it was a brilliant play on words and kind of fascinating. It's no longer available. But the concept, I think, transcends even his life. Yeah, that is a great goal.
[00:21:41] That's exactly what we hope for in Braver Angels. So we have another presentation. We've got Yuval Levin, who is a wonderful conservative thinker from the Enterprise Institute, who wrote a fabulous book recently about the Constitution and about how we can build together. And so I'm super excited to see him. There are a ton of really cool people that are going to be there this year. All right.
[00:22:10] I'd like to have a debate on whether we should get rid of parties or not, you know. That would be fun. And I can just represent myself and so can everybody else. And why should one group? The problem that I have with these parties is that they create laws and rules and guidelines that protect themselves. And to launch a third party is almost impossible. See, I might be a wig, you know. I actually do think that's a problem. I think protectionism in general is a problem. Yes.
[00:22:35] And on the flip side, I think that abolishing parties would actually make things worse because the problem with saying, well, I'll just represent myself and so will everybody else is that you actually need people to be able to organize themselves into groups of some kind. And you're just going to get closer to an anarchy state, right? Well, not even just anarchy. First, you go through oligarchy where only the rich and powerful are the ones who have access to really advocate for themselves.
[00:23:04] Because the unfortunate reality of our government right now is that, for example, your congressional rep represents so many constituents that it is literally impossible for him or her in the time that they have not in session to actually talk with all of their constituents. Like physically impossible, even broken into 15 minute segments.
[00:23:31] And so that's why the founders tried to get more representation, right? Yes, 100%. And so in that circumstance, if you eliminate parties, all you'll get is just a different assortment. Parties actually serve a really important function, just like PACs do, which is to equalize the influence between the wealthy and the median. And it's possible to end up with super factions that way as well, Elizabeth.
[00:23:59] Elizabeth Dahl, ladies and gentlemen, she'll be at the event coming up the 25th through the 28th at Temple University. It's going to be incredible in Philadelphia. You should be there, braverangels.org. Elizabeth will have a breakout workshop and she'll be speaking in a whole lot more. I'll love to meet her there in person. And this is the kind of stuff we're talking about. We want people to be thinking and open up their minds and become friends first. And then, hey, we can all agree that we need to work together, but you can still hold on to your core beliefs. Elizabeth, thank you so much. We'll talk soon.
[00:24:29] Thank you. You betcha. Elizabeth Dahl, everybody, doing a phenomenal job. Director of the program Politics at braverangels.org. I'm Sam Bushman. God save our constitutional republic. Thank you. Thank you.