Point of View September 7, 2026 – Hour 2 : Real Marriage Made Simple

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kerby Anderson. This hour we're going to talk about marriage principles, but even if you're not married, I think you're going to learn some lessons about how to interact with your siblings, with your roommate or others.

[00:00:29] But certainly those of you that are married, I think will benefit very much from this new book, Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles for Thriving Together. It is written by our good friend, Dr. Chris Thurman. And I might just mention, one of the last times we had him on, we talked about his book, Emotionally Healthy Christianity.

[00:00:48] And let me hold up this booklet because what I did was after he came on, we actually incorporated some of those principles in that book, in this little booklet that we make available to those of you that are part of our truth team. This one's entitled, A Biblical View on Emotional Health. And of course we mention not only his book, but books by Henry Cloud and Dan Allender and June Hunt and others, because we just think that that would be a great resource for you.

[00:01:15] So in some respects, we like to take some of these ideas that we cover in the program and then try to distill some of those down into sort of like a CliffsNotes version. And that's exactly what that is. This one might also lend itself to that opportunity. Dr. Chris Thurman is a psychologist, an author and popular public speaker, probably best known for his book, the bestseller, The Lies We Believe.

[00:01:40] Last time I checked, I think over a quarter million copies of that. He has been married to his wife, Holly, married for 44 years, and he is the author of this book, Real Marriage Made Simple. Chris Thurman, welcome back to Point of View. Kerby, great to be with you. Thank you for having me on. One of the things you talk about early on is you like to keep things simple. You're a guy that plays checkers rather than chess. You're a guy that just doesn't think that marriage has to be quite so complex.

[00:02:10] And as a result, that's why you wrote the book. You know, I am more prone to simpler understandings and interpretations of things. Marriage is very, very, very complex. But in this book, I tried to make it a little bit simpler as to what God's working on in marriage and how we can cooperate with him rather than toward his efforts to mature us in Christ.

[00:02:40] One of the things I want to explain is how the book is put together. First of all, there's an introduction. And there's one chapter on keeping marriage simple. So we'll focus on that. Then you have 10 chapters on proven principles for thriving together. And I love your sense of humor because lots of times you'll tell a story, a joke. You'll talk about three kinds of, oftentimes individuals, which always make you smile. And then about halfway through the book, you go, we're done.

[00:03:08] Because the rest of the book is, well, you have a section there on the 12th chapter where you talk about the idea of persevere using the acrostic there. But then the rest is a workbook on the principles that you have. So it's really plug and play. If somebody says, okay, this is something we could work together with each other on our marriage. We can read a chapter, then go to the end and fill out the workbook. Read another chapter, fill out the workbook.

[00:03:33] But at the end, you also have a section where if somebody says, well, this would be good for a small group, you even have a small group discussion guide. So whereas sometimes I have, Chris, individuals on the program that say, well, get the book. And then you can go to my website to find all the other information, the videos, the discussion guide and everything. You have chosen to put it all in one place.

[00:03:58] So even though we have a link to drchristherman.com, which, of course, you can find as well, if you get the book, you've got everything you need to even have a marriage counseling session, a small group session, or just a workbook for yourself. Well, I'm a firm believer in the notion of be doers and not just hearers only. And I'm also a firm believer in the iron sharpens iron.

[00:04:25] So when I wrote this book, I wanted to put a workbook in there so that people could apply what they learn. But there's also a study guide for leaders to where we can get together in groups of couples and work out our marital salvation, you know, in terms of encouraging each other about the process

[00:04:49] and just trying to let God basically mature us in Christ so that we can be truly loving, safe, kind, gracious spouses and, you know, glorify God in the process. Very good. Well, let's get into that first chapter. Can't we just get along? And, of course, part of that is your attempt to say maybe it would be better to lower the bar in marriage

[00:05:17] while actually raising it. So that seems contradictory. Can you kind of explain what you're talking about here? Well, Kerby, I feel sometimes that marriage books and even seminars can hold out to couples a fairly idealistic and sometimes unattainable vision of marriage, at least where couples are at at the moment.

[00:05:47] So in that section, I try to talk about, hey, why don't we just go back to the basics? Why don't we just try to go back to more of a fundamental effort to do the principles first? I use an analogy to tennis. It's like, you know, working on a topspin backhand lob is one thing,

[00:06:13] but why don't we just go back to looking at the ball all the way to the strings? You know, if we can get the basics right, if we can work on the simpler core aspects of a healthy marriage, then I think we can go from there. But I just sometimes feel like we put way too idealistic of a pressure on couples to be,

[00:06:37] you know, functioning at a level that is just incredibly hard to get to and that we can just do better at the more basic things of marriage, and then we can go from there. Well, again, that's the old KISS principle. Keep it simple, stupid. And, again, real marriage made simple is the topic. Again, if you're interested, we have, of course, a link to drchristherman.com. We have, of course, his links as well as information about the book. You might be able to find it in your local bookstore.

[00:07:07] But if nothing else, we do want you to be able to get it. And as you will find out, first half of the book goes to, as we're going to talk about when we come back from the break, these ten proven principles for thriving together. And the last half of the book is really made up of a simple workshop and workbook where you can go through and answer questions, fill things out. And if you say, well, this would be great for a small group discussion, that is available in the book as well.

[00:07:36] As we come back, just to give you an idea of some of the fun that he has in here, he talks about an elderly couple that have been shopping at a grocery store, and for some unknown reason, the wife decided to steal a can of peaches and got caught. So then appears before the judge, your honor, I stole a can of peaches. And the judge replied, how many peaches were in the can? And she said, six. The judge then said, well, I will send you to six days in jail.

[00:08:02] At that point, the husband stood up behind her and said, your honor, she also stole a can of peas. So again, it's the kind of humor that you have all the way through, as well as looking at the different kinds of individuals. And this one will come back. Four types of stay in your own backyard spouses and a variety of others, because in some respects, these are principles that are very easy to understand. They're simple.

[00:08:27] But even taking the time to apply one of those ten is going to enhance your marriage. And even if you're not married, you apply these to your spouse, your sibling, your roommate, your fellow employee. I think you benefit from some of these as well. So let's take a break. We'll come back with more with Chris Thurman right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Today is Labor Day. Although this day was set aside to honor trade and labor organizations, I believe it's a day when Christians can also consider how they view work and labor. The Bible has quite a bit to say about how we are to view work, and so I devote part of a chapter in my most recent book to a biblical view of work. First, we are to work under the Lord in our labors. Colossians 3.23 says,

[00:09:26] Whatever you do, do you work heartily as for the Lord rather than for men. We may have an earthly master or boss, but ultimately we are working for our heavenly master. Second, work is valuable. Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4.11 and 12, Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, so that you will behave properly towards outsiders and not be in any need. He also warns in 2 Thessalonians 3.10 that if anyone is not willing to work,

[00:09:55] then he is not to eat either. The Proverbs talk about the importance and benefits of work. Proverbs 12.11 says, He who tills his land will have plenty of bread, but he who pursues worthless things lacks sense. Proverbs 13.4 says, The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the soul of the diligent is made fat. And Proverbs 14.23 says that in all labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. You know, Martin Luther taught that all work can be done for the glory of God.

[00:10:25] John Calvin taught that all should work because they were to serve as God's instruments on earth. This led to what today is called the Protestant work ethic. So let's use this Labor Day to teach and reinforce biblical ideas of work. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net.

[00:10:53] That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Dr. Chris Thurman with us as we talk about his new book, Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles for Thriving Together. And Chris, let's, if we can, talk about this idea of stay in your own backyard. Can you kind of explain what that means?

[00:11:17] Well, on that chapter, Kerby, I draw from the notion of take the plank out of your own eye first. So in any healthy marriage, if you're not careful, you're metaphorically peering over the fence into your spouse's backyard, and you're focusing on their flaws and their defects. And I think biblical theology and just healthy interpersonal relationships require the humility of,

[00:11:47] I'm going to camp out in my own backyard. I'm going to let the Holy Spirit take me into my own issues. I'm going to humble myself and just realize that I have a lot that I need to work on. So the notion of staying in your own backyard, to me, when I do couples work, it's I'm constantly looking for, you know, is a couple making that particular mistake as they, you know, are interacting with each other. Right.

[00:12:16] And, again, sometimes it's the spending habit. You use that illustration of, well, she's spending this at Nordstrom, and he's spending it at Home Depot. And, gosh, the people at Nordstrom are so appreciative of his spending. They've raised her credit limit. And it's just great lines in there. But, again, that is something that obviously shows up in your counseling work. So that gets to the other obvious chapter, own your own stuff. Not only looking at what another individual is doing,

[00:12:44] a log, a plank in your own eye, and a speck in other individuals, but in some respects it gets into where you talk about different kinds of blaming marriage because there are some individuals that are dealing with character disordered marriages, neurotic marriages. And, again, you've run into this in your own counseling practice. Yeah. Sometimes people think that, you know,

[00:13:13] take the plank out of your own eye is the same thing as owning your own stuff, but it's really not. And the Bible is real clear about both being important, humility of being willing to look at your own issues. But then the second issue that's pretty big in Scripture from my perspective, especially when working with couples, is, you know, you have to take responsibility for your stuff. Yes. Not just be aware of it.

[00:13:41] But you've got to own it. You know, it's one thing to be aware that you can be, have a critical spirit towards your spouse. But if you're not humbling yourself and taking full ownership of having a critical spirit, which then leads to godly sorrow that leads to repentance, then you're not quite there yet. So another way I look out for my couples is, are you guys owning your own feelings in the marriage,

[00:14:11] or are you blaming them on each other? Well, it's your fault. I really felt hurt, and that's why I ripped a door off of a hinge. So I really, you know, this is another core value in my office that I try to get people to work on is, hey, we've got to stop doing the blame game, stop playing the victim card, and just take full responsibility, as the Lord did, for everything he thought,

[00:14:40] everything he felt, and everything he did. He never blamed any of those three on others, and I think we're supposed to follow in those footsteps. That's one of the things I took from your book as well about emotionally healthy Christianity. If we use Jesus as our model, who was the most emotionally healthy person on the planet, maybe that can give us some direction as well. So another one of the chapters is give more than you take. And that, of course, is very significant,

[00:15:08] because you talk about a husband who's always on the take, and you then even talk about three kinds of marital takers, some that give to get, some that are quid pro quo, some that are full-blown takers. And really, if you're going to have a successful marriage, it needs to be a marriage in which you give more than you take. Well, I believe that to be true.

[00:15:33] And I just want to say, you know, parenthetically, that this is not a chapter on trying to tell people to be doormats. Christ came to serve, not to be served. But that's not trying to get people to not have boundaries with each other. But the basic concept of, you know, can you go into your marriage each day

[00:15:59] looking for how you can give to your spouse rather than what you want from him or her? Can you pour yourself out as a drink offering and meet their needs today and just trust that they are a healthy enough person that they'll do that with you and you won't have to worry about whether or not your needs are going to be met by them and by the other healthy, safe people in your life that God will use to meet your needs.

[00:16:29] One of the other ones that you've been already mentioning is this idea of humble yourself. But I thought we might camp out on that because one of the things I found very helpful in that chapter is the idea of three kinds of arrogance. First of all, when you talk about arrogance, a lot of people think, well, thinking too highly of yourself. Of course, the scripture addresses that. But then you take on the other side of that, thinking too lowly of yourself

[00:16:54] because you say, strangely enough, we are being inversely arrogant when we think more negatively about ourselves. And then, of course, the idea of mixed arrogance. Sometimes people think humility is thinking less of yourself, but actually it has more to do with thinking less of yourself, if you will, thinking less about yourself and not necessarily being involved.

[00:17:19] And some people think, well, the opposite of arrogance is some kind of negative worm theology. And that's not what you're talking about either, is it? No. My understanding of humility in scripture is that it's an accurate sense of self. That's what I understand it to mean. So if a person is walking around thinking that, I don't mean this crassly,

[00:17:45] but if they think they're a worthless piece of dirt, that's not humility because that's inaccurate. You're a fearfully and wonderfully made image bearer. So, but if you walk around the planet narcissistically thinking that you are God's gift to the planet, well, that's not humility either because you're not. God's gift to the planet came 2,000 years ago.

[00:18:10] So humility properly understood is go into your marriage every day with an accurate view of who you are and an accurate view of your spouse. Don't think more highly of either of you than you ought, and don't think more lowly of each other than you ought. One of the things I love is that each chapter you begin with a quote. This one, of course, had Leo Tolstoy and then Romans 12, 3 about do not think of yourself more highly than you ought,

[00:18:40] but rather think of yourself with sober judgment. The next chapter is one where you quote from John Milton, The mind is its own place and in itself can make both a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven. But the concept there is get your mind right. And, of course, the most famous passage there would be Romans 12, 2, Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

[00:19:07] And it does seem to me, as you said, you need to get your mind right. A Christian will live biblically if, indeed, a Christian is thinking biblically. But if you have thinking that is wrong and thinking that's not biblical, then eventually you're going to, and probably almost immediately, have actions that aren't biblical as well. Yeah, I think, for me again at least,

[00:19:33] one of the core themes of Scripture is be transformed by the renewal of your mind. There are just so many passages about take thoughts captive. Yes. Whatever is lovely, true, pure, and worthwhile, think on these things. Your attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus. So whatever God is trying to say to us, I think he's clearly trying to say, hey, what goes on between your ears every day is perhaps the most important thing about you.

[00:20:03] And garbage in, garbage out. The father of lies really wants couples, for example, to believe a lot of things that are not true. Because, again, garbage in, garbage out. You can only go as far as your thoughts will take you in life. So that's a really important issue to me when I'm working with couples. What are they thinking? Are their attitudes and beliefs and convictions toward each other biblically solid, biblically appropriate?

[00:20:33] Or are they falling into what Zig Ziglar once called humorously stinking thinking? Right. So we all need help with what's going on between our ears. And, you know, that's another part of the book that I just really wanted to drive home to the reader is, hey, you've got to be careful. Every day you're taking unbiblical, irrational, faulty views of reality into the marriage with you.

[00:21:00] And the enemy is going to sift you if you don't, you know, turn to the thoughts that are correct. Well, again, we've looked at five of those proven principles. When we come back, we'll look at the other five and then talk a little bit more about saving your marriage before it fails. It's all part of this wonderful book, Real Marriage Made Simple. We'll take a break and continue with Chris Thurman right after this.

[00:21:25] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority. They say men can be women and women men. People are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their politics. Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens. It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing. You feel like giving up.

[00:21:55] But we can't. We shouldn't. We must not. But as Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II, never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. And that's what we say to you today. This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:22:23] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness. Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again as we talk about real marriage made simple. We've been looking at some of those proven principles. Stay in your own backyard. Own your own stuff.

[00:23:22] Give more than you take. Humble yourself. Get your mind right. I thought we'd look at five more of those and then, of course, talk about the idea of persevering and how to maybe use this book either as individuals or as a couple or in small group or other kind of teaching. And this now brings us to the next chapter, which is pretty easy. Stop Talking Trash. Ephesians 4, do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth.

[00:23:51] And it seems to me that that is sort of one of those intuitively obvious things. But nevertheless, that's something I'm sure, Chris, you've had to deal with in your own counseling. I have, Kirby. I don't think we realize just the destructive power of verbal abuse.

[00:24:16] Over the years, I've just grown a lot more sensitive to the words that I use or say to my wife, Holly. You know, I think I'm being funny or winsome or, you know, something like that. But, you know, there are times that we just all can be passive aggressive in our tone. We can be critical. We can use cutting humor.

[00:24:43] You know, not all talking trash is name-calling at a pretty awful level. Sometimes it's, you know, I'm just being kind of snarky and I'm just being condescending and I'm being demeaning. So I wanted to put a chapter in the book that had to do with this emphasis on the importance of

[00:25:06] forbidding verbal abuse of any kind in a marriage and learning how to speak words to each other that build up and edify rather than tear down. Yes. And you've got 14 different examples. So for some people, you might think, well, that's just name-calling or being bossy or making acquisitions. But, you know, deal with a lot of that, discounting and blaming and all sorts of things. So it's very helpful because you can work your way through that list and say, well, no, no, no.

[00:25:35] Oh, well, maybe yes on that one. No, no, no. Well, yes on that one. And I think you've done a good job. And that, of course, gets to in just a few minutes some of the lessons because on those lessons there you have a whole section where you can begin to think through what that looks like in terms of those 14 different elements. But let's keep moving because another one is, I love this one, shoot straight for their good.

[00:26:00] Instead of speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of Christ in him whose head that is Christ, Ephesians 4. There seems to be a responsibility that we have sometimes of speaking the truth to speaking the truth in love. And, of course, you point out that sometimes we speak the truth in hate or we speak the lie in hate.

[00:26:26] And we really don't understand how, in some respects, shooting straight is really important if you're going to have a marriage with intimacy. I think that's another important facet of a good, healthy, loving marriage is what the Bible calls speaking the truth in love. And when I did a deeper dive into that verse, I was struck by it trying to say two really important things. Number one, are you being accurate?

[00:26:55] And that's the truth part is if you're going to talk to your spouse, if you're going to bring something to their attention, are you bringing it to their attention accurately in the sense that you're not distorting either what they did or who they are? Secondly, are you doing it out of love? Are you doing it out of the motivation of agape love, which is love that desires to foster people's growth?

[00:27:23] So I think that's a pretty important principle in Scripture for healthy marriages is, look, you know, I'll put it kind of the way I tend to put it at times, which is rather I'm kind of a sparker, you know, in your grill kind of person. But it's like I don't think we have God's permission to say anything to our spouse if we're not going to say it accurately and out of love.

[00:27:50] If we don't meet those qualifications, I don't think he wants us to say much until we can get there. Yes, very wise. Another one is wipe the slate clean. Of course, in Colossians, we're supposed to bear with one another, forgive one another. And it does seem to me that that brings us to a very important principle. And, Chris, whether it's been June Hunt in the studio or Max Lucado in the studio or a variety of others,

[00:28:17] there's a theme that each one of them have written about this issue of forgiveness. And it does seem to me that there are oftentimes, as you point out in this chapter, unbiblical reasons why we don't forgive. We've had many people say that you should forgive even if you don't feel that forgiving, just because forgiveness is better for you sometimes than even for the person you're forgiving. Yeah, I think sometimes we forget.

[00:28:46] I'm not sure if it was Lewis Meads or R.T. Kendall, but they quote, they say, you know, forgiveness is releasing a prisoner and realizing that the prisoner was you. Yes. That you have to, you know, you've got to be willing to see that unforgiveness is just you gnawing on your own bone, is how another author put it.

[00:29:12] So, to me, another big ticket item in healthy marriages is are you going to be healthy enough to forgive? And I go into the different unbiblical reasons why people don't forgive, and then I go into here are the reasons why we are commanded by God to forgive and what it means and what it doesn't mean to forgive somebody,

[00:29:38] because sometimes people think that they're, well, if I forgive, I'm telling them that it wasn't any big deal or I'm not having healthy boundaries or something like that. Yes. Well, good points, and I thought I'd get a few more of those in very quickly. Tell on yourself, and this is the idea, of course, in James, confess our sins to one another, and what you point out is that there is a situation in which you have different kinds of tell-on-yourself spouses.

[00:30:08] Some say, nothing to tell on myself, or I'll tell on you, or the false guilt spouse. Of course, you've written about that as well, the truly honest spouse, the excuse-making spouse. There are different ways in which people think that they are to maybe tell on themselves, but many of those are not biblical ideas, are they? That's right. We are told to confess our sins to one another.

[00:30:36] I think that's a tricky concept in Scripture. I think we have to be wise in the Holy Spirit about how we do that. I kind of talk out of both sides of my mouth a little bit in that chapter about, hey, I think there are things that you don't tell your spouse, but you tell a healthy, wise, mature, same-sex friend in Christ.

[00:31:02] So there are times that I think it would be injurious and unhealthy to narc on yourself is how I put it. But, yeah, I just think a healthy marriage is where, you know, I can go to my wife, Holly, and say, you know, I just want to say I've been struggling with playing too much chess on the computer at work, or, you know, I've just been struggling to rein in my eating habits,

[00:31:30] or, you know, I'm just walking around with too much anger these days about, you know, toward people. So whatever the issue is, I think there's a healthy level of confession that spouses need to do with each other. One last one that I thought we'd get into, have compassion, and that is certainly a principle there as well, because if indeed you have love and compassion for each other

[00:31:56] and find opportunities to show random acts of kindness and other things, that's going to be certainly very important in a marriage as well, isn't it? It is. I've often been struck by the passage about a hardened heart in Scripture, and I came to understand that that could mean two things in a marriage. One, a heart that is turned cold toward the spouse.

[00:32:25] You've almost gotten to where you're indifferent toward them. The other version is more of what we traditionally think, which is a bitter, resentful heart toward your spouse. But, you know, I just think we have to try to stay in compassion mode of, hey, this person is a fellow struggler like I am.

[00:32:50] They find life challenging and hard like I do, and I want to be compassionate and kind. And I'm frequently taken back to the Lord's stance toward people. I mean, he looked across the crowd and he had compassion for them. That's a staggering statement, you know, of just how the Lord was toward folks. And even though they didn't treat him very well and at times treated him horribly,

[00:33:17] he had compassion even toward, you know, the folks that were mistreating him. And so a heart of compassion as opposed to a cold heart, an indifferent heart, or a bitter and resentful heart, I think that's what the Bible calls for. Those are the ten proven principles for Thriving Together. When we come back, we're going to talk about saving your marriage and really developing perseverance. All that coming up right after this.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Good to hear your conversation for a few more minutes with Dr. Chris Thurman. Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles for Thriving Together. This last chapter, of course, looks at the idea of persevering. And it opens with a story of a husband and wife that had been married for 60 years and had no secrets except for one. The woman kept in her closet a shoebox, which she forbade her husband from ever opening.

[00:34:23] But when she was on her deathbed and with her blessing, he opened the box and found a crocheted doll and $95,000 in cash. She explained, My mother told me that the secret to a happy marriage was never to argue. Instead, I should keep quiet and crochet a doll. Her husband was touched. Only one doll in the box. That meant she'd been angry with him only once in 60 years. But what about all the money, he asked. Oh, that's the money I made from selling all the dolls.

[00:34:51] And again, just an illustration that when we talk about these issues, life is hard. Marriage is hard. And by the way, that joke was used against me the other day on a point of view event. So that's why it really was touching to me as well. But you end, Chris, with this idea of using the acronym perseverance. Now, there's a lot of words for each one of those letters. But it illustrates, again, 12 different aspects of perseverance.

[00:35:18] And in some respects, if we're going to have a marriage successful, obviously we're going to have to persevere. And certainly the scriptures talk a great deal about that as well. Certainly in Philippians and James and other passages. And so that's another key, if you will, principle to marriage, isn't it? It is, Kirby.

[00:35:41] And, you know, that chapter was birthed by just the fact that marriage is really hard. I mean, marriage is just hard. And it's real easy and tempting to just throw in the towel and be tempted to walk away from it and not keep your hand metaphorically on the plow.

[00:36:06] So I wanted to end the book with what I hoped was an encouragement of, hey, yes, it is hard, but don't give up. Don't quit. You know, the Winston Churchill never quit, never quit, that kind of thing. So just wanted to encourage couples. This is worth it. You know, however much you struggle or get discouraged or, you know, lose hope.

[00:36:36] God's the God of hope. The enemy wants us to give in to discouragement and quit. But, you know, we just need to be careful not to. And so in some respects, what you're trying to help us understand is that these are principles that are easy to surface. Some of them are surfaced from Scripture. And I've already alluded to the fact that you have written a very good book that I highly recommend.

[00:37:02] And we recommend in our little booklet on emotionally healthy Christianity and what it means to be an emotionally healthy person. These also come out of, if I can refer back to your bestselling book, The Lies We Believe. Oftentimes we don't have a good biblical understanding of who we are and who Christ is and what marriage is. So in some respects, what you're encouraging people to do is maybe read through the first half of the book.

[00:37:29] But then this section is entitled Saving Your Marriage Before It Fails. And then now we've got over 100 pages of material in a workbook. So could you talk about how to use that? Because it does seem to me that you can go through this possibly individually. Or you could go through it as a couple where you both get a book and fill them out differently or you talk through it.

[00:37:54] And then near the end, of course, you have this opportunity for individuals who maybe would like to have a small group discussion because you have a small group discussion guide. So talk about how to use that in an effective way. Well, if I had my druthers, Kirby, I would have couples get a copy of the book themselves and then join with other couples.

[00:38:21] And the way I'd have them do it is I'd like you guys as a couple to go through a chapter a week yourselves with each other doing the workbook and then get together with a group of couples, even if you have somebody leading it as a guide. And then, you know, kind of come together so that you realize at a deeper level that all of us, you know, struggle.

[00:38:50] All of us need help. So the way I thought about the workbook was I wanted to write it so that even if just an individual spouse wanted to work on it, himself or herself, or a couple just by themselves wanted to do it, they could.

[00:39:08] But ultimately, I just, you know, the power of people working together in an iron sharpening iron way to me is just really important and not to be, you know, kind of ignored or not to be done. One of the things I appreciate is Dr. Les and Leslie Parrott, of course, have been on the program before, say that Dr. Chris Thurman cuts through the noise to deliver timeless wisdom in real marriage made simple

[00:39:38] with clear insights and practical steps. This book is for every couple who wants to strengthen their connection and navigate marriage with grace and intention. And just before I let you go, it seems to me that what you're trying to do is take some of the guesswork out of marriage, maybe some of the it's so complex I'll never be successful out of marriage, and really provide some hope. And as an individual that's probably counseled as many people as I know you have,

[00:40:07] can you provide us with some hope that maybe there's light at the other side of this, there is a hope for this? Because as you and I well know, there are people that go to divorce courts every single day over issues that other couples have chosen to work through and have led to a deeper and stronger marriage. So is there hope on the other side? There absolutely is. I grew up singing enough old school hymns,

[00:40:34] but one of them that comes to mind is my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness. And in God, we have every reason to hope. We have God who created the universe. And we don't have to walk around hopeless or defeated. It's like he has already won. He's indwelling us right now. And any couple that can turn to the Holy Spirit, humble themselves,

[00:41:04] and just do things the way God has laid them out in marriage, there's every reason to be optimistic that the marriage can be all that God wants it to be. Very good. Chris Thurman, always great to have you on the program. I appreciate the various times we've interviewed you over the years. I appreciate your books. And thank you for giving us an hour today here on Point of View. Thank you. Kirby, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Let me just mention one last time that the book is entitled

[00:41:32] Real Marriage Made Simple, Proven Principles for Thriving Together. I recognize that it's possible that you can find this book in your local bookstore. And if you can, you'll find that the first half of it just has all these great principles. Second half is kind of a workbook, and you can work through it. And I would recommend that you might want to buy two, one for each of you. And that would be a great way to apply that. But again, if you find yourself saying, well, I can't find the book in my bookstore,

[00:42:00] we do have a link on the website at pointofview.net. Get in paperback or Kindle. And it really is an attempt to try to take some of the confusion, some of the complexity, even some of the guesswork out of your relationship. It's really kind of a straightforward guide to tackling some of the complexities of marriage. And he really draws on his extensive, over now decades, counseling experience. Really helps couples take on honest.

[00:42:29] But at the same time, I've used a couple jokes to help you understand that this is really kind of fun reading as well. A lighthearted look at some of these important topics. We talked about those ten essential principles, as well as then how you can work through those in a workbook. And it's a fill-in-the-blank, a circle-the-issues kind of material. I think you're going to find it very, very helpful. Well, last time, the book is entitled,

[00:42:57] Real Marriage Made Simple, Principles for Thriving Together. It's written by Dr. Chris Thurman. And you've been listening to Point of View. At Point of View, we believe there is power in prayer. And that is why we have relaunched our Pray for America campaign, a series of weekly emails to unite Americans in prayer for our nation.

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