Point of View September 22, 2026 – Hour 2 : The Stories We Live By

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View Radio Talk Show, Kerby Anderson.

[00:00:19] You know, those of you that have been listening to Point of View for any length of time know that we've done numerous interviews with Dr. Timothy Keller and we're sad about his passing, but I think you're going to really appreciate this conversation with Dr. Michael Keller because this is in a sense a collaboration between Timothy Keller and Michael Keller in a book, The Stories We Live By and we're going to talk about seven cultural narratives.

[00:00:45] Those of you taking some notes might want to number from one to seven because we're going to get into that in some detail. Michael Keller is the lead pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Lincoln Square, kind of there by Central Park. Also the longest tenured senior pastor in the Redeemer network of churches in New York City. He has his Ph.D. from Free University in Amsterdam, has his Master of Divinity and THM degrees from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.

[00:01:13] Been featured in all sorts of publications such as the Gospel Coalition, Christianity Today and others. And this is really in a sense a collaboration and a collection of some of the conversations between Michael Keller and his father. So Dr. Michael Keller, welcome to Point of View. Thanks for having me. It's really a privilege and I actually didn't know my father has been on your program before so this is great.

[00:01:42] It's fun to be in line with him speaking here before. One of the things I thought was so interesting is the last hour we had Stu Epperson and he begins his book by talking about the death of his father, Stu Epperson Sr. This was Stu Epperson Jr. And of course that's exactly how you began your book as well. So there was sort of an unintended correlation between the two because as you go through this, you talk about losing your father.

[00:02:10] You talk about some of the kind of issues that you had been discussing and you really were trying to in a sense see if this could be a book that you could pull together. Can you tell us a little bit more about the genesis of this project? Yeah, sure. I mean, the genesis of the project is goes back to 2016 when my father released a book called Making Sense of God. And he asked me my thoughts and as a good son, I said what exactly what I thought.

[00:02:39] I said, I said, I think it's too difficult for most to get into the very philosophical book. And I think for the average American, we very really hard to kind of understand. I wish there was a Cliff Notes version of it. And that focused more on the stories we live by, the stories that our culture tells us and we sort of unknowingly have adopted them. And he said, you know what? That sounds like a great project to work on together. Let's start doing it.

[00:03:04] And even when he was still in his hospital bed, he was outlining aspects of the different chapters. So it's a lot of his cultural analysis and work. And I don't hide that. But the way I wrote it to be more accessible was to start with my own personal story of loss because I think everybody has suffered and goes through loss. And so I started with my own and said, well, what's the cultural story here?

[00:03:30] People say these phrases now where it's like they'll say, you know, he's looking down on you. Don't worry, he'll always be with you. And these statements, where did they come from? They felt hollow at the time. And using that as an exploration starting point, we launch off and talk about all these other stories that we live by. Let's begin to find cultural narratives because we're going to get into seven of them.

[00:03:56] And in a sense, we are supposed to be not conformed to this culture, but renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus. Or to use a different particular passage, we are not to be taken captive by false ideas in our culture. And it does seem to me that that really is a theme that runs through your book. So can you get into that in a little bit more detail?

[00:04:21] Yeah, I think some an older way of understanding some of these concepts, people use the word worldview, but a worldview is very much more of a intellectual ascent. It's more of a cognitive framework that we might have. The reason why we use these terms like story or cultural narrative is what I've seen in just the past 20 years is people still ask questions. Is Christianity true? But they're asking more and more, is Christianity good? Yes.

[00:04:50] And when you move into that phrase, is it actually good? What they're getting at is something about their imagination being sort of enthralled by what story that they inhabit. But it's not, this isn't, you know, it's not just, this isn't postmodernism that nobody, there's no such thing as a true story. It's actually the opposite that there, some stories are better than other ones. I think we're searching for what the, which ones are out there.

[00:05:18] And the way that we thought would be one of the best ways to kind of start talking about this is using those terms. That's not that nobody argues for faith anymore. It's that we get absorbed into different faiths. We get absorbed into different stories, whether we know it or not. Different meta narratives. Sometimes we use the phrase and all the rest, but we're talking about cultural narratives. And of course, we'll go through these individually.

[00:05:41] The story of identity, the story of power, the story of freedom, the story of morality, the story of truth, the story of happiness, and the story of progress. But these are cultural narratives. And they, I think, illustrate cultural identity. For example, listen to your heart to be true to yourself. Of course, you were even talking about when people were trying to deal with this as they will, he's in a better place or time heals all wounds.

[00:06:09] We have all these phrases that we unfortunately use oftentimes in funerals. We use a lot of these phrases in social media. And if we aren't kind of thinking biblically and are true to biblical ideas, we can very easily be taken captive or we can be very easily conformed to use the two verses I just picked out a moment ago. And that's, in a sense, the goal of the book, to help us be aware of how much our culture is influencing us.

[00:06:37] And in a sense, to know how to be able to respond biblically to what's going on in our culture. Is that fair? It's a great summary. I mean, 100%. It's both, we say this in the first chapter.

[00:06:50] It's for the non-Christian to realize that maybe one of the reasons why the stories they're living by are not fully working is because the stories that our culture has given us are warped aspects of sort of the Judeo-Christian story that has been around our, you know, in and around our culture a lot, but has had key aspects taken out.

[00:07:12] But it's also for the Christian where we think we're living the Christian story, but we've unknowingly adopted some of these stories that are hindering our faith. So, for instance, like, you know, we have a, one of the stories is freedom, live free, but do no harm. I mean, a lot of Christians love the idea of freedom, but the biblical view of freedom is not just freedom from things. It's freedom to, who are you free to?

[00:07:37] And so it's not just free from all kinds of constraints, because if you're free from all kinds of constraints, reminds me of C.S. Lewis's quote, when you see through every, you know, see through everything, you see nothing at all. You know, that's not what we want. But so the goal is to hopefully inoculate Christians from the stories that are, that we sort of grow up in. And they're in our movies, they're in our story, they're in our stories, they're in our songs, they're in our poems. And they come in these little phrases, you know, follow your heart. That's not just a throwaway statement.

[00:08:07] That's a story. To follow your heart. To you do you. Live free, do no harm. My favorite new one is morality's relative, but if you don't do it like us, we're going to cancel you. You know, these things are around, but I think we didn't really, it's kind of like the G.I. Joe motto, knowing is half the battle. You can't know what these stories are unless we actually talk about them. So that's the goal of the book. Let's take a break and get the book has just come out.

[00:08:36] And so you should be looking for it in your local bookstore published by Zondervan. But as you might imagine, we have all the links necessary on our website, pointofview.net. We'll take a break. Come back with more with Michael Keller right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:06] One of my frequent lines is, he who defines the terms often wins the debate. Progressives refer to people who support abortion as pro-choice, who isn't in favor of choice. Where they might define people who come to this country illegally as undocumented workers, who could be against people here to work. The other day, a Los Angeles city councilman referred to drug-addicted vagrants on the streets as our neighbors. Heather McDonald expressed her concern with this rebranding.

[00:09:32] It was being used as a rhetorical device to allow homeless encampments near senior centers and libraries and around freeway overpasses. The word neighbor conjures up all sorts of images. The assumption is that a neighbor shares the neighborhood's interest and stability and could even be counted upon in times of need. Does the city councilman really believe these vagrants could be counted on to contribute anything to society? What contribution do they make for society? They don't pay taxes. They don't pay rent.

[00:10:02] They often contribute to the crime in that area. They leave behind everything from feces to drug paraphernalia. They usually turn down offers by city workers to find them shelter and services. Heather McDonald asked a good question. Would the city councilman or his fellow DSA members ask an encampment occupant to watch their children while they run an errand? Or to keep an eye on their homes while they go on vacation as one might with an actual neighbor?

[00:10:28] In one sense, these people on the street are our neighbors because they live in our neighborhood. But in another sense, they aren't acting neighborly at all. This rebranding is an attempt to confuse the issue and win the debate. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net.

[00:11:00] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Continue your conversation today with Dr. Michael Keller. The book is entitled The Stories We Live By, Timothy and Michael Keller, the authors. 200 pages, just an enormous number of end notes, which I think you'll find helpful. A really readable kind of book. And if sometimes you've said, I appreciate the work of Tim Keller, but it's maybe beyond me, this one I think will really help connect up.

[00:11:30] And we're going to talk about the seven cultural narratives. Let's get into the first one, the story of identity. Listen to your heart, be true to yourself and your inmost desires. And in some respects, every one of these myths have a little bit of truth to them. But the problem is, like any heresy, it goes further along the way.

[00:11:51] And so in some respects, this whole idea of a modern view of identity you say is too fragile, too incoherent, maybe exclusive. Can you give us some perspective on that? Yeah, when it comes to identity, again, the paradigm that we've adopted is this idea that there's actually hopefully a biblical model. That Genesis 1 says all things are good. Genesis 3 shows us that all things are fallen.

[00:12:21] There's something that we can affirm and critique and redirect in all things. When it comes to identity, it's good to have an identity. God wants us to have an identity, right? But when we define it by looking on the inside, which version of you is on the inside? You know, is it a, I think I say in the book, there's a person of Mike, my name is Michael, Michael Keller. There's a Michael Keller who wants a peanut butter brownie. And there's a Michael Keller who wants to be fit and, you know, work out.

[00:12:49] But which version is the real Michael? And there's multiple versions. So there's this, there's this an inconsistency to say there's one true version. So we walk through just the different places where it fails. And then, and yet, then we try to redirect it and say, but instead of all these ways of having to achieve your identity and find it and it's all onto you, which is another type of works righteousness, performance, what better identity out there than one that's, you don't have to achieve, but you can receive it.

[00:13:18] And that's the Christian identity. It's, it's been given to you. All you have to do is take it. So that's how we dealt with that. Well, and again, you have a whole section that you usually put in each one of the chapters. What does Christianity have to offer? And this idea of identity is again, the idea of the Latin word, the same as, or sometimes we talk about people having integrity or integral circuits and all sorts of things. You're the same on the inside and outside.

[00:13:46] But again, finding your identity in Christ seems maybe a little bit too much for the skeptic, for the secular mind. But it's the only thing that makes any real sense. And it's just, again, a reminder that we as believers need to conform our minds to the mind of Christ and our image to the image of Christ. And the non-Christian world needs to understand that Christianity really has something to offer.

[00:14:15] But let's see if we can go on, because the next one is power. The only way to bring change is to take power from the bad and give it to the good. As I pointed out before, sometimes we certainly want the good guys to win. But there is something else here as well, because a lot of what you're talking about there is what you might call the power story. Can you explain? Yeah.

[00:14:41] And Kirby, just for the identity one, I think Christians can try to earn an identity through trying to do everything right and be good. And then maybe God will owe you. Just like the non-Christian can try to earn an identity. I think we can fail both ways. And that's why I think it's a critique for both of us about how we use identity, both Christians and non-Christians.

[00:14:59] As far as power, power is the newest one where now we're having, this is like a 20th century, you know, continental philosophy idea of it. There's no such thing as truth. Everything is about power. You actually just even during our break, you talk about redefining using language and redefining different words in our political world right now.

[00:15:25] Because the view is that if you can just change the terminologies, you can win. And I think what we try to do in that chapter is show that there is power dynamics and people, there are different levels of power. But if everything is about power, even that phrase, everything is about power is about power. So why should we listen to you? It sort of eats itself. And if you're everything gets reduced to power, then there's no way to reconcile. There's no way to forgive. There's no way to move forward.

[00:15:53] There's no way to learn and say, maybe I got it wrong because nobody can actually ever dialogue. So I, that's why I appreciate even, you know, point of view to be able to have these conversations. Well, again, this idea that you maybe have a power dynamic. So there's an oppressor and then there's the oppressed or the victim. Well, then where's grace? Where can you be free? You even talk about the term gaslighting. One person claims you're trying to gaslight me. And no, you're gaslighting me by accusing me of gaslighting.

[00:16:23] I mean, in a sense, like you said, it eats itself and this whole power dynamic, which is kind of the newest idea of certainly some of the woke ideas and wokeism and things of that nature. That is certainly one of those factors that you address as well. But to keep going, let's go on to another one. As you mentioned this a minute ago, and it's worth getting into freedom. Live free, just do no harm.

[00:16:50] And so the idea is, is that people love the freedom story. But there is another aspect of that because you point out that obviously the freedom story can get certain things right. But sometimes the freedom story harm principle kind of fails. The freedom story fails love. And so once again, Christianity has something to offer and helps us understand that it's not freedom from something, but it's freedom to do something, isn't it?

[00:17:20] Absolutely. And I think, listen, the Bible is all about freedom. It's Exodus. We have a whole book about getting freedom and God wants us free. But if it's freedom from all things, I wonder if some of the loneliness and anxiety and the mental health issues that America has, there's probably lots of reasons. But one of it is that, by definition, if you're free from all things, then you can't have love because love is binding ourselves to someone else and saying, I will be there for you. Right. It's a commitment.

[00:17:50] When you love somebody, you stay. And I wonder, Kirby, what do you think that if we're so bent on being free, having nobody tell us what what to do and where to go and stuff? Well, that means you don't have anybody in your life that's close enough to be in a love relationship with you. Yeah. Crisis of loneliness. I wrote about that years ago. And you have the book that came out, Bowling Alone. Right. It turns out we're still bowling alone. Right.

[00:18:18] And that was the idea that we have just people that are just autonomes that are just moving around here. As a matter of fact, you even used the illustration from the film I, Robot about that. And so if you are free, you're free from any commitments, free from any relationships, that is at least purgatory, if not hell. And yet that's exactly what some people think is the ideal, the pinnacle of freedom.

[00:18:42] And I think you have failed to really understand that really, if the son sets you free, you will be free indeed. And that's, of course, a key passage in scripture. And also the Bible talks all the time of becoming a servant to Christ, to be linked to him, because what better thing to be attached to than the one who lives and dies for you?

[00:19:06] So it's not about how do I get the most amount of restrictions, it's which restrictions will bring the most amount of freedom and freedom to Christ is the most free that you can be. Again, we are going to come back after the break and talk about some others who have talked about identity and power and freedom. We'll get into morality, truth and happiness.

[00:19:26] But I thought there's an interesting connection there just for a moment and jumping ahead, because individuals who think I just want to be free of any commitments are the ones that show the least amount of happiness, which, of course, is one of the issues we will get into along with progress. But there's some other issues that we need to address. But let's take a break. But let me just mention real quickly that this book has just come out. It is published by Zondervan.

[00:19:53] One of the things that I do appreciate about your book, Michael, is you've got an extensive number of end notes, because sometimes when you make a reference to a particular book or article, people might not be as familiar with that. And so there's just a tremendous amount of work that has been done in that regard. And, of course, a lot of the references go back to some of the Tim Keller books. And I know we have a number of listeners here that have really appreciated Tim Keller.

[00:20:20] So let me encourage you to find out a little bit more. If you go to the website, you will see that we have some links there. Well, first of all, of course, we have a link to Michael Keller as well. And that will take you to some of the material on his website. We have his link, for example, on X. So you can follow him there. We have, of course, his link as well to Instagram if you'd like to follow that. And, of course, we have information about the book, as I mentioned, just coming out.

[00:20:48] So you might have to look for it in your local bookstore. But if it's not there, we certainly have a way in which you can find out a little bit more about the book, because all you need to do is scroll down, click on the book there. And then we have a way in which you can, if you'd like to do so, order it in certainly hardcover or in Kindle. And those resources are available on our website at pointofview.net. So let's take a break.

[00:21:13] We've talked about a couple of the very significant cultural narratives in this last half hour. We'll get into a few more and talk about how we can be living biblically using a biblical worldview. We'll take on some of those issues right after these important messages. Give me a moment to tell you why we call faithful point of view supporters a team.

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[00:22:54] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again with Dr. Michael Keller. Timothy Keller, Michael Keller, author of the book, The Stories We Live By.

[00:23:22] And this, again, gets into the seven cultural narratives. And we've looked at a couple of those, identity, power, and freedom. And again, just an excellent book. I would certainly recommend for you to check it out. And it's something that you could go through individually. I see it as one that you could perhaps do with a small group teaching. And I think in some respects, Michael, you have done some of the teaching on this in your own church service.

[00:23:48] But there would be ways in which people could use this in a small group or a Bible fellowship or a Sunday school class, don't you think? Yes. I think it fits actually nicely because it breaks down by each cultural story. There's places to kind of think about where your own story intersects with it.

[00:24:08] And there's always something that you can say, hey, this actually aligns with the Christian faith because there's a lot of, you know, alignment with our cultural stories still because of our background and founding of our culture. But there's also things that need to be critiqued and then redirected to the true and better story of Jesus. And again, I think this is one that is, of course, many of your dad's books were like that where you could actually just have a let's have a book study.

[00:24:37] And as you go through the book, I mean, he's really engaging where the culture is, what sometimes we refer to as pre evangelism or just talking about helping people understand their worldview and their commitments. And as you said, it used to be the big question apologetics. Well, is the Bible true? And does God exist now? It's is God good in his really Christianity good. So in some respects, you've got some people asking those questions. And we've talked about identity, power and freedom. Let's get into the next one.

[00:25:06] That is morality. Right and wrong are socially constructed and we should work for justice. Now, first of all, this idea that it's socially constructed. So there's no right or wrong. Nothing's absolutely right. Absolutely wrong. Nothing's true. First of all, it's kind of hard to live in a world where you believe that it's all socially constructed. But then they turn right around and say, well, even though we don't believe anything's absolutely right or wrong, we should work for justice.

[00:25:35] Of course, you don't even have a basis by which to talk about what justice is. And so, again, social justice is different than biblical justice. And here this whole morality story is something that you take on. And it's, I think, one of the key aspects of your book and something which maybe begins to help people understand that they do sort of have this memory of a Judeo-Christian foundation of right and wrong.

[00:26:02] Even though they try to reject it, they can't live without some kind of moral story in order to function in our society. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah, I think 100%. I think we're struggling as a culture because we want the freedom of saying that morality is what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for me, that it's all relative. But then we get on the Internet and we get into other spaces and we clearly have a morality that we use against each other.

[00:26:32] And I think as conservatives, we have definitely a view of morality that is more concrete, whereas progressives probably see the world as systems and there's less of a concrete thing. I think as conservatives, a lot of times we only focus on individual choice as sort of what leads to wrongdoing. And I think the world is just more complicated.

[00:26:55] So I think there's just a place for us both to realize maybe where have we maybe absorbed a secular view of this story that morality is not actually biblical? And then what does it look like to actually live out a biblical world like you? Yeah. Yeah. One of the things you talk about, what does Christianity have to offer you, quote from Tom Holland, historian in his book Dominion.

[00:27:23] We had him on, as a matter of fact, a number of years ago, in which at that time he was sort of looking at it more from a secular point of view, although I understand some things have changed in his life. But nevertheless, he was very honest about when he was writing that book to simply say, we are the inheritors of a great deal. When individuals oftentimes say, well, you need to be more compassionate. And they say that to a Christian, say, well, the idea of compassion comes from Christianity.

[00:27:52] There was a time in which the Roman Empire did not necessarily believe in compassion, did not believe in doing the right thing, certainly did not believe in what you consider to be to be justice. And so in some respects, we are living off of some of the spent capital of Christianity from previous generations and previous centuries.

[00:28:16] And that's, I think, a very helpful way to help them understand that when you start saying, well, that's not right, that's not fair. You promised. Well, those are principles that are found in the scriptures. And they didn't, in some cases, exist in the Greco-Roman world before Christianity began to have an influence. I think that's an important kind of, if you will, almost evangelistic or worldview kind of apologetic way to address some of those issues.

[00:28:46] Yeah, there's a philosopher out there that has a phrase called who says. A lot of times he would have students in his class say, well, I think that all people are created equal. And he goes, well, who says? You can't just make an assertion like that. Right. You have to be rooted in something. Yes. And where did you get that? I mean, if you go to an evolutionary understanding of humanity that strong eat the weak, the strong eat the weak does not mean equality. So where did you get this idea?

[00:29:15] Oh, well, we've all evolved to get to this place. No, it doesn't. It has to come from somewhere. And I think we're, as you rightly point out, Tom Holland did the research of our historical foundings and said, no, this came from a Judeo-Christian understanding. So let's not pretend that it didn't. So it puts us back into a place. Are we going to own that or are we not? And if you're not going to own it, then where are you going to get your moral system from? And that's what that chapter in the book is for.

[00:29:43] Of course, we've talked about morality, but that brings us to another one, truth. Science and reason alone can tell us what is true and can fix our problems. Well, you run into that one very quickly because science can maybe tell you where something came from a little bit or maybe tells you how it works. But it can certainly get to ultimate values.

[00:30:05] And science can't tell you anything about what is right or what is wrong, what is true, what is false, other than the scientific method. And so, again, this is where Christianity has so much to offer. Again, you quote from Tom Holland and others. But these are, again, very important issues of truth. And it is amazing to me that if we just even focus on this issue of truth, that's where you see so many people sort of floundering. They will make those assertions.

[00:30:35] But then when you ask, well, why should I believe what you said versus what somebody else said, they sometimes will try to somehow sneak that into the scientific method. But a lot of those are presuppositions that you and your father have talked about for many years in not only the books, but in your preaching and teaching. I mean, science, let's just be honest. I mean, science is a great instrument that we've built. We love science.

[00:31:02] But what we don't love is when we try to use science and say it's the only way to tell truth because science can tell us what is. It can tell us, like, it can analyze something, but it can't tell us what we ought to do with it. It can build us a bomb. But should you use a bomb? There's still agency when it comes to these things. And so I think we have to be careful with what happened to our culture is we said, well, we don't know where to get truth.

[00:31:30] So let's just keep fault on science. But science can't give us all that we needed to. And I think we have to be careful not to come up with our own, you know, systems of how to get truth. I mean, truth is real. It might be difficult to get to, but it doesn't mean that it's not real. Well, again, that's just an important issue as well. Let me pick out one other one. We'll take a break. And that is happiness. Figure out what makes you happy.

[00:31:59] Then don't let anyone stop you from getting it. The happiness story is one that actually has a lot of difficulties because individuals that have been pursuing what they thought was going to make them happy through their entire life at the end say, I'm really not very happy. And some of the happiest cultures in the world are not ones that are in the Western world. And as a result, it just illustrates again that what we thought was going to bring us happiness really does not.

[00:32:29] And if you're really wanting to have peace and grace and all sorts of other aspects, that's, again, what Christianity offers. Yeah, the phrase is do what makes you happy. I don't think people realize, particularly Christians, how much we've absorbed this view of if I just get the material thing, if I just get the house, if I just get my kids in a good place.

[00:32:52] We don't realize how much we have taken in this happiness narrative because so much, if you read the Bible, so many people are suffering and having a hard time, but they still have their identity. They still have their faith in Jesus. They still have their ability to kind of survive. So the goal of this is to show that God wants us to be happy, but happiness is only found in him, which at first you're like, that doesn't sound very happy.

[00:33:20] But I think when you realize that anything that you grab in this world, read a biography of Brad Pitt, of any major, you know, Michael Jordan, and they get to the top. And you know what? They're not still happy. So we have to start really doing some hard work on ourselves saying, wait a second, if it's not stuff, if it's not acclaimed, if it's not success, then where will we get it? Let's take a break. We'll continue our conversation on the stories we live by right after this.

[00:33:47] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back for a few more minutes as we talk about the book, The Stories We Live By, and again, looking at seven cultural narratives, how Jesus critiques and completes what our culture tells us.

[00:34:14] We've talked about identity and power and freedom and morality and truth and happiness. One last one on the issue of progress, and then we might talk about how to apply the gospel story. Progress is, again, one of those that you hear phrases used by a lot of people that are into the social justice movement. Be on the right side of history, which always moves towards liberty and prosperity and away from religion and oppression.

[00:34:43] The implication is that if you're on the right side of history, you're going to kind of put the idea of Christianity and all religion kind of in the rearview mirror. But, again, as you point out, the progress story has no definition of progress. It's obviously too optimistic about human nature. It has really no resources to deal with some very important and vexing problems like injustice and revenge.

[00:35:12] And it really has no answer for some of the big issues like pain and suffering and death. This is where, again, Christianity has something to offer, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's hard for folks because we want our lives to be all straight up, progress up. Or we want those who are wrong, we want their lives to be all straight down. But the Bible is full of people that you don't see that.

[00:35:39] And the arc of the Bible is sometimes you have to go down before you go up. Jesus went down into the grave before he was risen. So that means Christ's kingdom has already been not yet. And that means that it's a lot more complicated. I know we don't like this, but, Kirby, what do you think? Because I know we don't like the idea that it's a lot more complicated, but that's what we see in the Bible. Well, we do. And I think we expect that life is a lot more complicated.

[00:36:06] I've jokingly said that oftentimes people have maybe watched too much television, too many movies, where all the various issues are resolved within a television show in a half an hour or in a movie within a couple hours. Life is a lot more complex than that. And individuals that have been pursuing something that they think is going to help them be more happy and more successful turn out not to be so and tend out to be false idols.

[00:36:35] Individuals that have been climbing the ladder of success only to find that the ladder was actually leaning against the wrong wall. These are, I think, some things that, as we've talked about before, are individuals running into because as they have pursued what we are being told in our culture are going to make you successful, happy, and prosperous aren't working.

[00:37:01] And that's why I think there's a real opportunity in the future to present the gospel, the true gospel, and to help people to, once again, think biblically about every area of life. Well, Christians are allowed to be more pessimistic than the biggest pessimists and more optimistic than the biggest optimists instead of having to be one or the other. Because we can be more pessimistic. Because you didn't just mess up today. Like, sin means there's no hope for us. And so we can be more pessimistic by human nature.

[00:37:30] But we can be more optimistic because we're not – life isn't just going to be this, you know, this imperfect world. The future is all things fixed and remade. So we know one day it will be okay. And it's not just going to be okay. It's going to be better than that, more than we can even imagine. So we can be both of those simultaneously, the one or the other, which is what I think culture – we tend to – you know, when our team's not winning, we're all in the dumps. And when our team's losing, they're all high. And we can actually hold on to both these to manage all that comes at us.

[00:38:00] I think that's what the Bible shows us. Tucker and Doe with, of course, Michael Keller about the book The Stories We Live By. But I thought before we run out of time, you have a chapter on applying the gospel story and one about completing our stories because, in some respects, as we pointed out, this isn't just for your intellectual education, which it certainly provides, but it's also for us to maybe stop and rethink what we necessarily buy into,

[00:38:30] the ways in which the culture has taken us captive, the need for us to begin to think biblically about every area of life, and then to apply it to our own lives as we reach out to the watching world and begin to proclaim the truthfulness of the gospel. Yeah. I mean, the Bible – the true and better story, because we're really asking people to look at their stories of living and how are they incomplete and how does the Christian story complete it.

[00:38:58] And the Christian story gives you an identity that doesn't crush you or exclude others. It gives you a love that will never fail. It gives you the ability to have justice where you can use power that doesn't create new oppressors, because I think that's what we're talking about. Everybody has – like you pointed out really well, Kirby, that there's just oppressors and victims, and that's all you have. It gives us a hope. It gives us a beauty. It gives us a happiness, a satisfaction that goes beyond just our change in circumstances.

[00:39:27] It gives us a freedom that doesn't erode love. It gives us a meaning of life that can handle all suffering. I just – I think we don't realize, if you're a Christian, what you have to be able to live out each day new. And if you're not a Christian, what's available to us? And so I really just – the hope of the book is that people will review their stories and see the true and better one that's available to them. Let me just mention, too, that we have a link, for example, to your X account.

[00:39:55] One of the things that you posted just the other day is about the book and resources by James Davidson Hunter. If you go around the studio here, you'll see I have it on my shelf. Of course, we interviewed James Davidson Hunter years ago when he talked about this issue of culture wars and some of those issues as well. And certainly, in some respects, there's a connection between some of the individuals that we've interviewed, including him and your father, and there is certainly just a great opportunity here for people to take this book,

[00:40:25] which is just now coming out, and begin to apply it. And so as we apply it, I would think that, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago, individuals can read through this book and certainly benefit. But the way it's structured, I think this would also make for a very good small group study, even an evangelistic study where individuals could share their own story and then begin to delve into some of the things that you have in this book, don't you think? Well, 100%.

[00:40:51] I think it's also a great thing, once you get the themes inside and see some of the paradigms, you could do it with your family. I used to do it with my kids. We'd watch a Disney movie, and I'd pause it and say, what's it saying? It's saying, follow your heart. And you'd say, well, okay, what's wrong with that? Well, maybe they would say, as kids, maybe we shouldn't follow our hearts because sometimes they take us to the wrong places. You can pause a commercial. I do this now with my older kids, and they say, what's it saying?

[00:41:18] They say, well, if you get this car, you'll be happy if you buy this food. So these are cultural stories that we need to protect our kids, ourselves, and you should 100%, Kirby, do it in small groups. You can do it as a study for your church, but you could also do it as a family study. All you have to do is turn on the television and then just pause at the right places and say, what story is being communicated? There's always a story being done, and there's something that's valid

[00:41:46] and something that's wrong and something that can be changed and pointed to the true, better story. Well, I appreciate you being with us, Michael. And again, the book is entitled The Stories We Live By, Seven Cultural Myths That Fail Us and the Story That Never Will, How Jesus Critiques and Completes What Our Culture Tells Us. And it's been great to have you on the program, and I look forward to the next opportunity. Kirby, thanks for your time. Really appreciate it. Let me again mention that the book is out. You should be able to find it in your local bookstore.

[00:42:15] It is published by our good friends Ed Zondervan. About 200 pages, great material, seven cultural narratives. Very essential for us to be able to think biblically and to live biblically in a world that is trying to conform us into its image. And we should not be conformed to this world. We should be transformed by the renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus. We should not be taken captive by false ideas. Two very important verses in the New Testament.

[00:42:45] But that's all we have for today. So let me just, first of all, as always, thank Megan for her help engineering the program. And, Derek, thank you for producing the program. If you would like to know more about this book or other resources, you can go to our website, pointofview.net. And you've been listening to Point of View.

[00:43:14] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority. They say men can be women and women men. People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics. criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens. It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing. You feel like giving up. But we can't. We shouldn't. We must not.

[00:43:41] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II, never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. And that's what we say to you today. This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos. We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help,

[00:44:10] we will overcome the darkness. Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151. Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.