Point of View September 2, 2024 – Hour 2 : Workers for Your Joy

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Hour 2 -" In the Cross Emeritus, Live, This Is Point of View

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Christian leaders and if you think about this confidence in many of the Christian leaders

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: both inside the church and Christian organizations is kind of waned over the years. There's

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: a real need to come back to the basics so we're going to take some of those qualifications

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that you can find at 1st Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and others to begin to address this

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: issue and this is a resource that I think you would want to apply to your church, to

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Christian organizations, maybe pass on to others. We're going to look at the various

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: qualifications in say the devotional life, the private life, and the public life of

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: individuals and to really begin to use that as a grid to evaluate what some of these

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: individuals and positions of leadership should be manifesting. These are not just suggestions

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but really essentials to really evaluate Christian leadership and this is

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: something that I think you're going to benefit from in a book that's been out for a while called

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Workers for Your Joy, The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders. It is written by

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: David Mathis and he serves as the senior teacher and the executive editor of

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: DesiringGod.org. He's a pastor of Cities Church in St. Paul, Minnesota also an

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: adjunct professor at Bethlehem College and Seminary which is there in

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Minneapolis. Author of several books including Habits of Grace and Join Jesus

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: through the Spiritual Disciplines but this one where we're going to be looking

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: at Christian leaders with the title Workers for Your Joy. It's published by

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Crossway Books. You might be able to find it in your local bookstore but we

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: have information about it on our website if you would want to order as

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: well. David, welcome to Point of View. Thank You Kerry. It's a joy we

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: talking to you. You know we live in an age as you point out in a world where we are

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty cynical of leadership. I spend some time on this program talking about

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: political leadership but we also talk about church leadership and this is why

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this book and this conversation is so important because

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: especially inside the church you would hope that our leaders would be

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: more exemplary than we see outside of the church sometimes maybe even I can say

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: oftentimes that's the case but there is just a lot more to do and in some

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: respects that's why you wrote the book. That's right, yes. And so those are

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: some really important topics to begin to address and so what I want to do

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: is kind of break it down in the fact that you spend a fair amount of time

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: just really understanding our attitude and that would be kind of this issue

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: of humility and really even developing this idea of a Christian vision of

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership and I know that we've had people on this program from the Howard

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Hendricks Center for Christian Leadership. Maybe that's the start

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because it seems to me that oftentimes we recognize that Christ is the head

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: of the church but he also in Ephesians 4 we see Paul saying that he gave

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, the

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: teachers to equip the saints and so we need to sort of understand that

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: hierarchy, don't we? We do. You know it is amazing that we have so much in

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: the New Testament on leadership qualifications. I think so often if

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: we're taking our cues from the business world or from politics or just

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: even the best of conversations about leadership in society we're going to

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: miss some real key elements and the fact that the Bible has so much to

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: say about Christian leaders and about the kind of virtues that are critical

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: for Christian leaders, the kind of character that's in place. It's an

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: extraordinary thing that we have the kind of guidance that we do in the

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: New Testament. On the one hand it's sad that some have overlooked that or

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: neglected that or discounted that and the payoff for that has been

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03]: catastrophic and terribly sad in many places and those kinds of stories

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that are in our current media and social media love to magnify. But

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: there's others, there's a long tradition of others who are faithful to the

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Bible, quiet local churches where we use these qualifications and they

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: really mean something and they help us select people who are not just

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: good leaders in society terms but who are spiritual leaders, who are

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Christian leaders. There's only so much, there are things that we can

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: glean and benefit from good leadership practices in society but

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: there's only so much. Christian leadership is distinct and as we'll

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_03]: see in the qualifications, there are some key notes that are struck that

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you will not find in corporate America.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well said. Again the book is over 300 pages, as a matter of fact 300

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: pages of content and then about two dozen pages of study questions. So

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: if you as we go through this are thinking this would be good for me to

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: study but it might be even better for my entire Deacon board,

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: elder board, maybe pastoral staff to study. That is the case and just one more

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: point before we get in some of those qualifications David and that is

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: as I understand it these concepts and even the approach that you have

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: emerged from your teaching of seminary students

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: at Bethlehem College and Seminary. So talk about how those particular

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: insights if you will ended up in the book.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah thanks Kirby that's helpful to give some background.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: As a seminary student and being young in ministry

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I never aspired to really teach about eldership or the pastoral office. I think

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I have my preference would have been to teach on Christology or the

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: official to the Hebrews but this is the assignment I got a little over 12 years

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: ago at Bethlehem College and Seminary they said we need someone to teach

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_03]: the eldership class and so as we embarked on that class there was

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: some material you were using at the time and I would use that to work through

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: with the guys. It would be anywhere from 15 to 20 guys who were

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_03]: studying to be vocational pastors who were at the front end hopefully of a

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: career of being in Christian ministry full-time and as we went through

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_03]: those various topics I tried to think about you know what are some

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_03]: things these guys need to discuss very practically before getting into

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Christian ministry trying to draw on some of my own experience

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: as well as conversations with older leaders and other texts on spiritual

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: leadership what are some of the key practical topics that need to be

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: addressed and Kirby the amazing discovery that came along the way is

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: that the elder qualifications are strikingly relevant to the flash

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: point the practical ministry issues that the guides are going to face in

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_03]: any generation and so as I sought to see inroads into practical topics it

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: was remarkable that the elder qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and in

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Titus 1 some of the additional attributes that we get saying

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: 1 Peter 5, Hebrews 13, 2 Timothy 2 that these were amazing inroads to the

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: pastoral office itself it's almost as if the apostle

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Paul knew what he was talking about imagine that so that was the big

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: discovery on the way and to try to to try to

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: change it up a little bit sometimes if you change the order of things

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: that can be insightful for learners just to come at something from a

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_03]: different standpoint so instead of going straight through the elder

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 in order I wanted to see through like what are

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: these getting at and so I was able to identify over time about three

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: categories of qualifications one related to the elder the pastor

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: in private before his god another in his private life say in his home

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and in various private spheres and then the third and this is very

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: significant is the public life it the pastoral office is a public

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: office and so how the man appears and behaves

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_03]: himself in public is an aspect so before god before those who know him

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: best and then third before watching church and world those are the three

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of categories that we go through in the book and then we take those

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: elder qualifications in a fresh order based on those three categories

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to take a break but we'll start off with this idea of men before

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: god and then of course men where they are known the best inside the church and

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: then finally men before the watching world so we'll break that down you might

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: want to turn to 1 Timothy 2 and follow along 1 Timothy 3 and some of the

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: other passages Titus 1 and 2 we'll get into each one of those but we need

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to take a break we'll be back right after this

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: this is viewpoints with Kirby Anderson

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: today is labor day although this day was set aside to honor trade and labor

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: organizations i believe is a day when Christians can also consider how they

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: view work and labor the bible has quite a bit to say about how we are to view

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: work and so i devote part of a chapter in my most recent book to a biblical

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: view of work first we are to work under the lord in our labors

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Colossians 3 23 says whatever you do do you work hardly as for the lord

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: rather than for men we may have an earthly master or boss but

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: ultimately we are working for our heavenly master second work is valuable

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4 11 and 12 make it your ambition to lead a quiet

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: life and attend to your own business and work with your hands just as we

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: commanded you so that you will behave properly towards outsiders and not

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: be in any need he also warns in 2 Thessalonians 3 10

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that if anyone is not willing to work then he is not to eat either

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the proverbs talk about the importance and benefits of work

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Proverbs 12 11 says he who tills his land will have plenty of bread but he who

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: pursues worthless things lack sense Proverbs 13 4 says the soul of the

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: slugger craves and gets nothing but the soul of the diligent is made fat

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and Proverbs 14 23 says that in all labor there is profit

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: but mere talk leads only to poverty you know Martin Luther taught that

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: all work can be done for the glory of God John Calvin taught that all

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: should work because they were to serve as God's instruments on earth

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this led to what today is called the Protestant work ethic

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: so let's use this labor day to teach and reinforce biblical ideas of work

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view go deeper on topics like you

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: just heard by visiting point of view net that's point of view net

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you're listening to point of view your listener supported source for truth

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: the topic is Christian leaders the book is entitled workers for your joy

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: David Mathis is the author and crossway is the publisher and we're going to

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: look at this whole idea of men before their god how christ appoints his pastors

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: not a novice or arrogant pastors are teachers and pastors need to keep

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: their head in a conflicted world and I guess David we just begin by first

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Timothy 3 if anyone aspires to the office of overseer

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: he desires a noble task and so you really take us through

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: how God calls an individual to be a pastor of a church

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: or to be a leader of a Christian organization so uh share just if maybe

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: an insight or two about that because that certainly acknowledges that God

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: calls but sometimes people wonder how that actually takes place

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: you know that's right it's not to be helpful at the very outset to address

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the issue of calling I mean so many of us have something right in our way of

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: thinking about calling but we may not have the full picture together

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: so what I try to bring there is three different aspects that are important

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe three angles on the on the one calling of God how he makes his

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_03]: calling of someone manifest you know sometimes we have a very

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: spiritualized or even like an old covenant view of it thinking that our call

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03]: should be kind of like Ezekiel's call or Jeremiah's or Isaiah's but that's

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: that's not quite how it works it's not how Paul talks about the call

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: so one thing he mentioned here first Timothy 3 amazingly is he talks about

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: aspiring to the work desiring to do the job which

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: which is a remarkable thing some of us might have the

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: uh the instinct to think oh you know if I'm going to be effective in

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_03]: ministry this needs to be something you know I don't really want to do

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_03]: but I'm duty bound to it that I will do this great thing for God I'll answer the

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: call like you might answer the call to to serve in duty for the sake of your

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: country in a war but not really want to do it that's not the way that Paul talks

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_03]: about the office he talks about someone aspiring to the office so

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the work begins in the heart God loves to begin to change us from the inside

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_03]: out and put a desire for the work of the ministry a desire to preach a

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: desire to teach the Bible a desire to counsel others a desire to do the work

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03]: of the ministry in the heart of the person he's beginning to call

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: but it doesn't only happen in the heart sometimes we might have this simplistic

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: perspective of oh I feel called to ministry in my heart

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: therefore I am called to ministry and that's not how Paul

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: or the apostles would put it together so it begins in the heart with aspirations

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: but then there's also confirmation from those around us like in our home

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: church in our family those who know us best who would help confirm that you know

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: is our aspiration true is it wise is it from the Lord or is it one of our old

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: sinful desires that's gone awry so other people in our lives

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_03]: can help us you know is there some fruit is there some ability even

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that others would see and say yeah that's a fit I could see you being a

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: pastor I could see that being a good thing I think that's worth pursuing

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: seminary or some course of study to get ready for the ministry so there's that

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: the internal aspiration then there's an external confirmation from fellow

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Christians but then the last one I think this one is often the most overlooked

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that the call to ministry is confirmed in the providence of God by a real life

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: opportunity so guys in seminary often will talk

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_03]: about they're being called to the ministry and I like to gently correct

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: them and say well you aspire to the ministry and I hope you have some real

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: life confirmation from others but you're still waiting on the call so to speak

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_03]: for that church to say hey would you be our pastor you know here's the job

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: description here's the job offer or at a local church if somebody's

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: becoming a volunteer leader for the for the pastors to come into

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: hey would you be an elder would you be a deacon so until that real life

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: opportunity in the providence of God happens the call has not yet been

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03]: fulfilled and that's the extension of the call that's the way the Holy Spirit works

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: to bring about a true call to the ministry in reality

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: working through our hearts internally the confirmation of others and then some

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: real life opportunity where a church says hey would you be one of our officers

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and then at that moment you would know I'm called and I'm in my calling

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: until God changes circumstances otherwise again some of it's internal some of

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: external wisdom of many counselors all of that comes together

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the other chapters I'll skip over because I think people probably understand

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that not a novice or arrogant she's not be a recent convert or be puffed up with

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: conceit I think most people have seen that because I want to focus on one of the

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: things that is not in 1st Timothy but in 2nd Timothy pastors keep their head

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in a conflicted world as for you always be sober minded and this of course

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: may be one of the last if not the last letter that Paul writes to Timothy

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but this idea being sober minded that was true in the first century with persecution

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but I guarantee it is really important here in the 21st century with all the

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: different pressures on pastors churches all the different conflicting ideas and views and values

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: finding that individual and being that individual is going to be really key in this world isn't it

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and try yeah there are whatever the forces it's complicated I do think that as we as a

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: society continue to learn how to under how to use the power of the internet and smartphones

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and social media there's a lot of distortion this commobulation

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: that's happening even even discerning what's real and what's unreal like how highly online

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_03]: people are or not how much their sense of the world is is provided by their various new sources

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: online versus what's actually going on in their locale these are some of the issues that have

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_03]: many off balance in our day and there is it is there in 1st Timothy 3 he must be sober minded

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and then you're right also 2nd Timothy 4 in particular that that great preach the word

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: passage Paul 5th Timothy when the last things always be sober minded and the

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_03]: NIV says always keep your head I think that's such a such a relevant way of saying that

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that is an accurate way of getting at it that in our times in all times it was nuts in

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: the 1st century and it was crazy in the 1790s there's been there all sorts of times that

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_03]: really discombobulated and very difficult for people to keep their heads

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and we live in those times as well and it's so important that our leaders

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: a plural plural leaders that's a major thing in this book that the churches there's no church

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_03]: in New Testament that's led just by one single local leader is always a plurality always a team

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: of leaders and we do well to learn from that and try to get back to that as much as we're able

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_03]: in the 21st century to have teams of leaders but in our times we need people to know how to

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: keep their heads and especially when we have mature sober minded leaders together serving

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: as a team that is a great stabilizing and balancing force for a church in the crazy

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: changes of the time there can be this trend and that trend in this trend and sees all

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: pendulum swing back and forth and all sorts of cultural confusion and for a group of leaders

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03]: in a church a group of pastor elders to be able to keep their heads and provide that kind of steady

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_03]: balance sober minded teaching and leadership for a congregation is really invaluable you know again

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you've given some of the verses to 1st Timothy 4 have nothing to do with irreverent silly myths

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: 1st Timothy 6 avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: knowledge for by professing it some have swerved from the faith of 2nd Timothy 2 have nothing to do

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: with foolish ignorant controversies you know that they breed quarrels you know back to this issue

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: of the internet if that was true in the 1st century it's really true now I mean you got conspiracy

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: theories you got people that are dealing with certain kind of political trends different kind

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of candidates we get into an election year you get even more of those so if many of those

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: warnings that Paul was giving to Timothy back then were true they're even more true today and I think

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it illustrates again why we're looking for those kinds of pastors but we do need to take a break so

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: let me if I can just mention before we get into the next section that one of the other things

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that makes your book so valuable is the fact that you have a whole section of questions

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and study questions so that really the way you've put this together not only can an

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: individual study this but this would be just a great group study wouldn't it that's my hope I the

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: book was designed in working with a group of seminary guys year after year and these are

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the kind of questions I drafted over time and had some help on I really wanted to be I wanted to

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: go serve individuals but in particular I've got a group in mind maybe a cohort of guys who are

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: training for the ministry or who aspire to office that this would be a resource they can

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: work through together very good let's take a break and we come back we will move into the next

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: section again I'm going through this fairly quickly it's a 300 page book obviously we can't

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: cover everything but we've talked about humbled men before their god part two whole men where

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they are known best and so we're going to get into the issue of self-control and certainly

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: some of the qualifications or disqualifications in that regard some of the temptations

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and of course it's sex money power you can imagine some of those as well

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and the need to be a good dad if indeed you're going to be a pastor and then in the last section

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll talk about men before the watching world but it's all part of a book that I would recommend

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it's been around for some time you might already find it in your look all local bookstore but

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: if not we've made it very easy for you to order we have information about that on the

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: website at point of view dot ness a worker for your joy the call of christ and christian leaders

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: point of view dot net and we'll continue our conversation right after this it almost seems

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority they say men can be

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: women and women men people are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: politics criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens it's so overwhelming

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: so demoralizing you feel like giving up but we can't we shouldn't we must not as Winston Churchill

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: said to britain in the darkest days of world war two never give in never give in never

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: never never never yield to force never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's what we say to you today this is not a time to give in but to step up

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos we can't do it alone but together

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: with god's help we will overcome the darkness invest in biblical clarity today at point of view

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: dot net or call 1-800-347-5151 point of view dot net and 800-347-5151

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: point of view will continue at you are listening to point of view

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or staff of this station and now here again is Kirby Anderson continue your conversation day with

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: david mathis and again the book is entitled workers for your joy a call of christ on christian

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: leaders we've talked about men before their god what about now men who are known the best

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: what about what they are doing inside the walls of the church and we're going to focus

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: on some of that and then at the end we'll also look at men before the watching world

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but it is interesting Dave as we get into this whole section in the church

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I've written about the idea of abusive churches and how to think about that from a biblical point

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of view and oftentimes we talk about some of the failures of church leaders because of sex

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and money but one that gets left out but this is the first one you talk about its power and

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that is going to Titus to urge the younger men to be self-controlled and you take us through this

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: whole idea of the incredible power that pastors really do have there's the power of the office

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the power of influence even a power of the team how to leverage power how you deal with this

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: power that you get especially if you're in a fairly prominent church really again takes you back to

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: your character but it is striking that whether paul is talking about this in his letters to

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: timothy or in this one to Titus that surfaces time and time again and tells me we need to

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: take pay attention to it and that's right you know in our day sometimes the conversation

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and criticisms related to power can give the sense and the feel that to have power is a bad thing

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_03]: powers a bad thing divest your stuff many powers so I'm kind of game a hot potato it's not the way

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the New Testament talks about power it's a gift to be used for good and in our sin a danger for

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_03]: ill so we talked earlier about the qualifications and that there's some some kinds of ability

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_03]: that are important in pastoral ministry one of those as specified in person three is

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the ability to teach it says to be able to teach the Greek word did doctic cost means that

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: someone is equipped to teach and that they're eager to do the teaching and that they're

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_03]: effective at doing it so there's a kind of power there this is someone who has had training so they

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: have they've honed they may have some natural abilities but they also have practiced and honed

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: those abilities they studied the Bible they're good at presenting and teaching and preaching

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: so there's ability there and then we even up the ante on that like we increase that in a good way

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_03]: with this thing called office we make someone official a official as a pastor or official as

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_03]: a deacon and then in addition to that in many contexts as it should be according to New Testament

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_03]: pastors work together as a team and so in a team context there's a kind of pooling

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: of power a pooling together of power so put all these layers together you have someone probably

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03]: with with natural abilities in terms of leadership and communications and then you have someone who's

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_03]: who's trained in those areas and practiced it and become more proficient someone who's been

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_03]: given an official title as pastor and then someone who's part of a pastoral team where

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_03]: you can pool power as you work together and so in a church context the pastors should realize

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_03]: that they have a lot of ability this is it's God given ability it's God given power and that's

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: meant to be used for the good of the flock a danger among a group of sinners is that as they

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_03]: gather together and look around the room and tough decisions face them they begin to default

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: toward serving the people in the room rather than serving the good of the flock it's a danger for

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: every every group of redeemed centers and so so good pastors will take honestly the fact that

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: they have power there's an ability there's a power in the pastoral office and the

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and in the ability to teach and represent God through his word and they'll take that seriously

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and in humility they'll want to steward that power for the good of the church put

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_03]: those teaching gifting to use for the good of the people that you would explain the scriptures to them

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: that you would help feed them help meet their needs help provide direction help provide wise

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_03]: governance that would be for the good of the flock not for the personal private selfish

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: interest of the leadership that's a big axis that's a big fork in the road that leaders

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_03]: often come to in quiet late night moments of meetings that aside are we really serving the

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_03]: flock here or are we just making our preferences actionable and it's a small thing but over time

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_03]: it leads to at least a big roads diverging so to speak in pastoral life in ministry

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and so good good pal good pastors learn the kind of power they have they crucify the flesh

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and together they try to put that power and ability into the service of the good of the

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: church and not their own private game you know one of the chapters of course deals with the issue

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of money and of course money power go together sometimes but you've got a balance here on the

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: one hand we believe that a pastor is worthy of double honor doesn't necessarily mean double pay

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but on the one hand we don't want to get to the point where they're so strapped that they

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: eventually have to leave the ministry to just go back and recover and there are been churches

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly that have not been using fairness and justice to pay them but we have some on the other

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: extreme as well and so it is I think one of those key elements that the pastor but also

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the board that keeps them accountable whether it's elders or deacons or whatever trustees

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: to begin to navigate through those temptations as well that's right it's so important to me

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_03]: the dynamic here is just so critical and the best scenario is where a church wants to be generous

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: with its pastor the church's church doesn't want to handcuff the pastor the church doesn't want to

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03]: make its pastor's lives difficult the church would like to see that the pastor has enough

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: that he himself can be generous with others so the church wants to be a good church wants

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: to be generous with its pastors and then good pastors themselves want to be generous

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03]: they're not greedy they're not trying to amass wealth or an absorb exorbitant fortunes or live in

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_03]: in constant luxuries their focus is on teaching and caring for the people and they're delighted

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that the people meet their needs and so if you can find humble pastors who are not greedy so we

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: want pastors who aren't greedy and also churches that aren't greedy but the churches who want to

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: be generous with their pastors then we come into the into the best dynamic where the church is

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: thinking well for the pastor and all the while the pastor is thinking well for the church and not

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_03]: having to to think and angle for his own financial needs but he's well cared for well good balance

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and well said just before we take a break the tragedy of distracted dads and that gets into the

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: fact of 1st Timothy 3 he must manage his own household well with all dignity keeping his

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: children submissive for someone does not know how to manage his own household how will he

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: care for God's church and it does seem to me that we've all heard stories maybe even experience some

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in which we talk about the pastor's kids that are rebellious we talk about the pastor who is

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: focusing on the flock but never on his own family and that warning that Paul gives is something

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we should really pay attention to especially given the distractions that exist in the 21st

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_03]: century yeah that's right I mean dads today are still learning how to deal deal with this

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm 43 and I have been a father now for the last 13 and a half years until I've been learning how to

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: be a dad in the age of the smartphone my wife and I got married on the day that apple released

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03]: the iPhone back in 2007 and as a millennial I've been trying to deal with this I know many

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: my age I know people my in my parents generation who are dealing with this and and maybe some

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_03]: in that older generation got started a little bit later on some of the technology and they're a

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_03]: little later on learning to deal with it with self-control as well but across the board this is

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_03]: a major issue in our day and especially for us as parents you know it's one thing for someone

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: who's single to over consume on the internet and be constantly distracted by their phone

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_03]: but as we come into marriage and then come into having children and then come into having

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: further responsibilities say being in a pastoral office that that little distraction constant

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: distraction in our pocket if we are giving in and creating habits that are detrimental to life

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_03]: in the real analog world where we have responsibilities where if we would only open our eyes the

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_03]: three-dimensional joys are so far better than the ones reduced to two dimensions on our

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_03]: silly little pocket pixels this is a major issue in our day and pastors need to learn how

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to use the good pastors and fathers all fathers learn to use the good that can come through

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_03]: these devices that we carry and then also learn how not to be distracted by these devices these

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: little two-dimensional world from our calling and our better joys in the real world well said

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: let's take a break and when we come back we'll focus some time and attention on that last

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: area men before the watching world and of course we're talking about individuals that

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: are above reproach we're talking about how to maybe address some of these very controversial issues

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and when to pick a fight when to walk away when it is essential to really address a very important

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: theological issue and when not to make that an important issue there's some really incredible

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: insights in that section and then as I've mentioned before not only are there a number

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: of appendices but also study questions this is a book I think would be very helpful for you

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and for people in your sphere of influence so again we will take a break continue our conversation

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with Dave Mathis right after this you're listening to point of view your listener

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: supported source for truth a dinner conversation day with David Mathis and again we're talking

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: about the fact that this is a book that really helps us understand Christian leaders workers

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: for your joy in his published of course by crossway and we're looking at a men before the

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: watching world and of course the first key you can find it in first Timothy three course you

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: can also find it in Titus one but let's look at the one in first Timothy three and overseer

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: must be above reproach he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: disgrace into the snare of the devil back in Titus one it talks about being above reproach

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and as a steward you must be above reproach so this idea of being honorable before the watching

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: world is really very key and I think sometimes helps us understand that when you look at somebody

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: who's above reproach that really as you said is the first requirement of Christian leaders

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because Paul warns about what happens if indeed we don't have individuals that are above reproach

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: before the watching world that's right it leads the list remarkably in first Timothy three again in

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Titus one and it's doubled down on I was just reading track six with a the seven come along for

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: the first time yes Stephen and Philip and the other five and the first qualification given there is

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_03]: they must be of good repute have a good reputation so sometimes that uh surprises people they think

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: oh you know as Christians like our main concern isn't what what people think isn't what the world

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: thinks like is it having a good reputation those kind of things well here's there's this is not

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: that this is not the nature of Christianity at his heart but the first principle of Christianity is

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_03]: have a good reputation with the world we're talking here about Christian leadership we're

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03]: talking about office and office is an official capacity it's a public institution where you

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: say publicly to the church and to the world these are our officers here are pastors here are

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: deacons here are the people who are official in this congregation that it's very the very nature

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_03]: of the role is public and so when we're talking about that public role we talk about these public

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: qualifications and above reproach is the first thing that leads the list in some minds

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: that might be we may see this either too high or too low some people might say oh above

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: reproach does that mean sinless like i'm not i'm not sinless you know and of course you're not

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03]: you're not if it's not what above reproach means it's actually a a pretty what low bar so to speak

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_03]: by above reproach is meant that there's nothing that's out there and obvious and public that is

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: a problem with you and your leadership just as much on christ terms as on the world's terms

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_03]: now if there are people who have lost their ever-loving mind in the culture and they're accusing us of

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: crazy things like not affirming this sin or not affirming that that's a very different matter

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: than being above reproach on the very things that jesus himself teaches so we're talking about

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: on god's established truth through his word in the mouth of jesus and his apostles are christian

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: men are they above reproach in jesus's terms and and that that's critical in the office the church

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: will be pulled down by those who want to go toe that line and who want to act toward the world in

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_03]: a very worldly way want to play on the world's terms in terms of language in terms of postures

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of behaviors yes they will not be above reproach and i think in that situation

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: they should be disqualified by their local church from that office

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say we can talk about the other aspect of that because you've got a chapter on how do

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: pastors pick their fights and in first timothy three and second timothy two the idea of not

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: quarrelsome although i love the old king james not a brawler but we're not talking about somebody

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: who's going to uh get engaged in what they call fisticuffs or physical but there is a sense

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: in which sometimes you do have to pick your fights i'm thinking of the famous phrase in

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: essentials unity in non-essentials liberty in all things charity there are times when you can

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously say that's maybe not a hill i want to die on that is not a fight i need to get

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: involved with but there is the extreme of peace at any price in which we compromise the

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: scriptures and then the other in which we're always fighting about this that or the other

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we're to speak truth in love and i think there are times when we're dealing with the essentials

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: of the christian faith we cannot compromise and those are times when i think we do fight

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: but there are other things that maybe i don't want to pick a fight on because

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: a person's salvation or even the doctrinal integrity of the church isn't really at stake

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the color of the carpet or the drapes what are your thoughts well you know the the

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_03]: eldership qualification is esp has not quarrel some yes i love the king james it still translates all

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: these centuries later not a brawler some translations have not pugnacious that the

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: greek word there is is is literally not a fighter that's where they get the not quarrel

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: from and another a positive mean if you wanted to say positively what that means you could use the

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_03]: word peaceable yes somebody who like jesus is blessed are the peacemakers that elders pastors

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: should be peacemakers now there's there's two different ways to make peace sometimes you make

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and keep peace by just ignoring stupid stuff that's not going anywhere and you're not constantly

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: having a fight and brawling here and there another way to make peace is that when there's really a

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: problem you address it so that on the other side of the struggle you pursue peace you don't say

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: peace peace when there is no peace but you pursue peace by being by taking seriously serious charges

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: to like you said there could be the essentials that would be an important thing and in particular

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_03]: in second timothy chapter two at the end of second timothy two paul talks about a whole

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_03]: demeanor and way of approaching various conflicts in the church by christian leaders which i think is

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: so important that even when the it would be the doctrine of the trinity or the word of god or

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: the divinity of jesus or justification by faith one of our major doctrines even when it would

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: be one of those essentials there's a particular approach it doesn't just mean go in and battle

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: on the world's terms battle with all manner of unrighteousness towards a good end of a good cause

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: rather paul gives a sith he says let the lord servant not be quarrelsome there's the same language

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_03]: from the other qualifications but and now here's the positive things he says but kind to everyone

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_03]: able to teach so even in conflict that a pastor would would teach would have the kind of

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03]: perspective and heart of the teacher not necessarily a judge who's walking in just rendering final

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_03]: verdicts but a teacher's perspective and patience and that's the next one patiently enduring evil

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: mature christian leaders patiently endure evil as they engage in these essential conflicts and he

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03]: says correcting your opponent like yes correct them that's right and then he says with gentleness

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a way to correct opponents in christian maturity and holy spirit magnanimity that you would

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: approach even a conflict on the essentials with kindness patience clarity about error

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and all the while a kind of gentleness that represents the very heart and power and strength

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and beauty of jesus christ and paul gives a prayer there that those who have been

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that those who have been an error might repent of their ways they got my grant them repentance

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_03]: leading to a knowledge of truth and they may escape from the devil's trap having been captured by him

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_03]: to do his will so even the whole approach from the pastors in conflict is wanting to win

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the seeming opponents yes rather than wanting to destroy them well said again the book is

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: titled workers for your joy a call for christ on again the call of christ on christian leaders

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: david mathis with us again it is a book published by crossway 15 chapters we've only covered less than

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: half of them five appendices steady questions and so much more so david thank you for writing the

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: book and thank you for joining us today here on point of view thank you very much curbie it was

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: a joy to talk to you will gain we and commend this book to you it would be a resource for

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: your personal study it could be something that you could use as a group study and it's a way in

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: which we can call leaders back to christian behavior and you've been listening to point of view in 19th

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: century london two towering historical figures did battle not with guns and bombs but words and

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: ideas london was home to carl marx the father of communism and legendary baptist preacher charles

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: spurgeon london was in many ways the center of the world economically militarily and intellectually

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: marx sought to destroy religion the family and everything the bible supports spurgeon

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_01]: stood against him warning of socialism's dangers spurgeon understood christianity is not just

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: religious truth it is truth for all of life where do you find men with that kind of

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: wisdom to stand against darkness today get the light you need on today's most pressing issues

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