Point of View September 18, 2024 – Hour 2 : Reconnected, Wedgewood Church Shooting – 25 Years Later

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_07]: ive 2 points of View, I'm Merrill Matthew sitting in for Kirby Anderson today. And our guest is

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Carlos Whitaker, he's joining us by phone. He is a bestselling author, podcaster and global speaker.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_07]: And best of all, perhaps for our most well, best of all, for our purposes. He is an expert storyteller.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And we're going to be talking about his latest story that is his new book, Reconnected, how 7 screen-feed free weeks with monks and

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Amish farmers help me recover the lost art of being human. And if you're viewing online, you can see as I'm going to hold up the book here,

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_07]: the title is originally disconnected, but then they have that scratch through and then wrote in Reconnected. So this is how a disconnected person can become

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Reconnected. Carlos, thank you for joining us.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Hello, Dr. Matthew. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's a very interesting book here. Start us out by just telling us how you decided you needed to get away from social media,

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_07]: and you're talking about your cell phone there because you spent so much time on your cell phone. And you came to the conclusion that you were going to get away from this. How did you decide to do that?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think we're at a place in society where everybody is feeling some semblance of tension with how much time we're spending looking at a screen.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, tell me about it. You know, yeah, especially those of us that, you know, especially those of us that can remember what life was like before we had all of these screens and you know,

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: every Sunday we get a notification that most of us get one that slides across our screen that tells us you have average blank and

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: blank hours and minutes a day on your phone. And mine came across and it said that I was averaging seven hours in 23 minutes. Now the first thing I thought was, well, you know what this is what I do for a living.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I made videos that post them on TikTok and YouTube. So of course I'm going to spend seven hours a day. It's my job. But then when I decided to actually do the math, that's what led me to the math was this.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Seven hours and 23 minutes a day equals approximately 49 hours a week. So that's two entire cycles of the sun that I was spending looking at a phone.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I kept doing the math, which said that equals three months a year. So that was pretty shocking when I realized I'm spending three months of my life every year looking at a phone. That's just the phone. That's not even my TV or my laptop or anything else.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I kept doing them. I've been into the five lived to be 85 years old. I will spend over 10 years of my life looking at my phone. And that's just when I thought we weren't created for this.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't created for this. Let me do something pretty drastic a big experiment and see how it kind of changes my heart in my mind.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, Carlos, this is so important because when I get on an elevator if it's packed everybody's pulling out their phone and looking at it.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_07]: And then I'm like, oh my god.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_07]: When I walk down the street people are looking at their phone and in fact one year I was in Italy and they have a lot of little moped and yeah this is the culture.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_07]: I saw a lady riding on her moped reading her fucking owner.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my god. So you're absolutely right about this. Now tell me how did you decide because you don't have to go, you don't have to go to a monastery, you don't have to go to the homage family.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_07]: You could just say, yeah, you're phone aside. But how did you decide I'm going to do something where I'm completely away from these things?

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, great question. So I guess the first question I'd ask any of your listeners myself included is, well how well is it going for you just saying I'm going to change my habits.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we'd also like, well we've tried and we've failed. And so you know I just have been I was blessed with the opportunity to not not have to work for a couple months.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I said, you know what this is what I'm going to do. I want to see what really can happen on the other side of my phone screen. So I set up an appointment with a neuroscientist in Los Angeles named Dr. Daniel A. men and he scanned my brain.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's came. I bring so I could see what my brain look like at seven hours and 23 minutes a day of phone use and he did all this cognitive memory score testing all the old these things.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I went and I moved in yes to a Benedictine monastery in the high desert of Southern California for two weeks, 14 days living with those monks.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I flew from Los Angeles to Cleveland, Ohio with a paper boarding pass. I'm a ad so we was like living in my family and home because I didn't have a phone right.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so so I made it to Cleveland, Ohio without my phone it was a miracle.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And my friend picked me up and she drove me to Mount Hope, Ohio where I moved in with the Miller family, their sheep farming family.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I lived with them for two weeks and then I moved back home to Nashville with my family for three weeks.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why I decided to do the monks and to do the omnisch was because I wanted to live in some subcultures here in America where the the phone just wasn't a major part and a screen wasn't a major part of who they were,

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: which it really isn't every other subculture and so it was a lot easier obviously for me to not look at a screen when I was at the monks and not look at a screen when I was with the omnisch.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But by the time I got back home to my family, I mean I'll tell you Dr. Matthews, I didn't want to pick my phone up by that point.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I was so off of it it was the greatest feeling on planet earth. I felt like an elephant and stepped off my chest.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I just was living, I think in the purity of who maybe God created me to be for the first time in like 20 years and it was magnificent.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And then all that will say at the end of it, I got my brain weak and.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_07]: And when you go through, I mentioned this to people who haven't seen your book.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_07]: When you go through here, you look at various, I'm going to call them insights because each of your chapters.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_07]: I think almost all of them are one word. There's one that has two words, but identity, perspective, notice, wonder being,

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, attitude, that control it should be holding present.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_07]: It just very interesting that you're going through here and you're sort of highlighting these insights that you're getting.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_07]: So give us a little hand at what happened with the monks.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely. So you know, the monks was if you could just imagine going from seven and a half hours a day on your phone to 23 hours a day of silence for 14 days in a row.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It was the first three or four days were very difficult.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I was having some physical manifestations of anxiety, night sweats, heart palpitations.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: All these very anxious anxious.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's with the brothers and have my phone. This is true.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It was literally withdrawal absolutely out having withdrawals because again, if you think about it,

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: like our phones are legitimately affecting our dopamine levels in our brain, our serotonin levels in our brain.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I didn't have that drug, my withdrawal symptoms kicked in.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And so for four days horrible.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to leave. I wanted to go home, but then yeah, with the middle of day four, when all of a sudden everything just left.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I stressed left me moving at God speed left me the monks move at three miles an hour.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Everything was so slow they're chanting with those slow their prayers were so slow, but I fell in love with the pace of life.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I called there's a whole chapter in there called God speed.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: How God designed us to walk at three miles an hour.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to ask myself, wow, now that I'm moving at this speed, what else in my life is actually moving at the speed that God created me to live?

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I went out and looked over it, I was like, well maybe there's not a lot.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm moving way faster than I was created to move.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And so God speed was one of the things I learned from the monks, but then also wondering,

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: wondering is something that we are the first group of humans on planet Earth

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to be on that brink of extinction when it comes to wondering.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Wondering is almost extinct.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is if you're with the group of friends or your by yourself, you think,

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: well I wonder literally you pick up the wonder killer the phone and it kills your wonder.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh that thought there will be back in just a minute with our guest, Carlos Whitaker.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_05]: This is viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Peter Sainonj asks, how did American voters get so dumb?

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: If you've ever watched the answers given by people on the street to historical political questions,

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that many voters are not well educated about our history or form of government.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: J. Linno's Jay walking and Jesse Waters Waters World provide many laughs, but also cause us to shake our heads.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: When he was a professor Peter Sainonj ran in inaugural address through flesh-concade text analysis

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to measure the grade level.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Most of the inaugural addresses during the 20th century written at the 13th to 14th grade level,

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Barack Obama's inaugural was at the eighth grade level, Donald Trump's inaugural was ninth grade level,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Biden's inaugural was the seventh grade level.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: George Washington's inaugural began with, among the viscissitudes incident to life.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Andrew Jackson's inaugural began with, undertaking the arduous duties that I've been appointed.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Joe Biden's inaugural began with, this is America's day.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Back to the original question, how do we get so dumb?

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: His answer to the public schools, he reminds us that the modern government school came from the 1800s pressure

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that suffered from worker riots and present revolts.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The goal was indoctrination, not education.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Parents and taxpayers have a right to ask, what do we teach in any schools?

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Gradges who we see interviewed on the street corner don't seem to have a clue about this nation's history

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or about the structure of government.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of them could not pass the citizenship test we give to people who come here from other countries

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and desire to become US citizens.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately they will vote in November even though they don't even know enough to make it in form vote.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_05]: A free booklet on a biblical view of Patriot preachers go to viewpoints.info-patriot preachers.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Viewpoints.info-patriot preachers.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_04]: You're listening to point of view.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_04]: You're listening to supported source for truth.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_07]: And welcome back to point of view, my guest joining us by phone, Carlos Whitaker and the author of the new book, Reconnected.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_07]: And Carlos, when you're with the title of your chapters, just highlight some of the things that you are getting to be English.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm for lack of a better term reconnected the title of the book with because you mentioned you now have time to wander one WNDER

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_07]: but you did some wandering around as well.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Being you're becoming self-reflective again and have time solitude.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_07]: You have time to think about and introspection.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_07]: A lot of things change when you get away from those cell phones.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of things change and I think the reason why I called it reconnected is because I think I was getting reconnected to who I was fully created to be.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many things that are uniquely human about solitude, about wondering, about favoring, right?

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Noticing.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You talked about how when you got in the elevator and everyone's on their phone.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no one's noticing anything.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I was walking around at the monastery for two weeks with no phone, I was noticing all sorts of things that I never would have noticed.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had a phone in my hand.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you one quick story.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I was actually walking from my cabin to the chapel one day and I didn't have a phone in my hand.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm looking around and I actually noticed a bobcat that was on the path in front of me.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I stopped in my track and this bobcat started it come towards me.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I threw a trap and combed into the bobcat and scared away.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And all I thought was if I had been on my phone and didn't notice then saw that, what would have happened to me, right?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I just think that there's so many things that we need to make sure that we're doing, that we were created uniquely to do that I really learned at the monastery.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_07]: And you also talk about you got a chapter on control and you've got this term in their own page 87 that I really like.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Control bubble.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_07]: What is a control bubble?

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: A control bubble is what these phones have have placed us inside of because here's here's the truth.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Matthews, is that we're actually not in control.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to feel like we're in control and these screens give us a false belief that we're somehow in control.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that control is actually the drug that we're taking.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the phone is the drug. I just think the phone is the needle. The phone is a syringe.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The drug is knowledge. The drug is control.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that maybe we know way more than we're ever supposed to know, you know, you, we've got live 360 attached to all of our kids phones.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Now we can see how fast they're going.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Where are their apps?

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: All of these things that, you know, I talked to my mom who raised me in the 80s and she's like,

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: God, these those I'm so grateful that I never had like 360 to check you.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I just had to trust you. And we've lost all kinds of semblance of trust in our society.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I think because these phones put us inside of these control bubbles that sooner or later they're going to pop and I think roll in for a harsh reality.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_07]: But you know, it's interesting because we sort of think we are in control and we try to be in control.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_07]: But you sort of make the point there's an awful lot in our lives.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_07]: You might say almost everything that we really get control.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think and I get it.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Every single human being wants to feel control.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to feel out of control.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I learned once I didn't have this device is that, wow, like,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I no longer have to rely on Google if I'm feeling sick or, you know, checking in with somebody that,

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, maybe I've missed a message from there and there annoyed at me because I haven't replied back to them.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's definitely like there's all these control pieces that were no longer there that I had to rely on my intuition.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to rely on my prayers.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to rely on, I mean, get this just conversation space to face with other people.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, you know, I just realized pretty quickly that I actually don't have near the amount of control over my life.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That my phone made me think that I did which allow me actually to ultimately release the control.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_07]: So after two weeks with a monk, you head off to, was it Pennsylvania? You head off to be with the armage?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's Indiana though, is I'm thinking anyway. You head off to Ohio, Ohio.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_07]: You head off to live with the with the armage and you, it's kind of a different kind of monastery.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_07]: But if I did yourself, here you are, you're out there doing with dealing with wheat and now are not we, hey,

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_07]: and other things, it's just you're now on a farm and you're being a farmer.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I did. I listen. I'm a city board from East LA.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Never had much dirt underneath my fingernails and little that I know that three hours into arriving at the Miller sheep farm that Willis is going to have a sheep head between my legs.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was going to be wrangling that thing trying to shear it.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm telling you, there was a lot different than living with the monks. I was exhausted.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I was so tired one day of farm and had me about to retire.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But I told Willis, listen, you're going to make a sheep farm out of me in 14 days if I've ever been made to anything.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, I live with them for 14 days. I worked the land. I was able to farm. I was able to really fall in love with who the honest were, you know, something else I loved about this whole experiment was that

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the honest and I have very different lives. We have very different worldviews.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We look at things a lot differently.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But because we were able to share meals together that lasted an hour and a half because we were able to just being tight community.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We were able to disagree without being dishumanizing to each other. We were able to, you know, we found out that we may disagree on a few things but we agree on 17 things.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I just think that what I sound through them is the ability to maybe go back to, I think maybe where America used to be.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: How we could disagree with respect how we could disagree with honoring each other and I really appreciated that fast in about who the honest were.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_07]: You found something that they aren't as disconnected as you thought they might be.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, I'll never forget it was day three. I'm farming with Willis. You know, he's we're on the back of the plow and he's got four horses in the touch and all of a sudden he pulled that a flip phone from his pocket.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, excuse me, sir, why do you have a phone? And he goes, oh, he goes, um, he said, you know, if we own a business and our church allows us to have flip phones, they just can't be smart phones.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So that began my conversation with them about technology and like, well, so what do you allow into into your community? What do you not?

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved what he said. This actually skipped in my perspective on technology. He said the way we invite technology into our community is we ask two questions.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this piece of technology going to bring us closer together or is this piece of technology going to take us farther apart?

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's why you'll never see a TV. That's why you'll never see a smart phone. That's why we'll never have cars because although cars can get us place faster, it will actually take us farther away from each other if something happens.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to make sure that we're close enough that if Miss Sally Barnburns down we can have her a new barn built in 48 hours and if we all had cars, we never have those things. So, you know, they they're not anti technology.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They just ask those two very important questions. Will this technology bring us closer together or will it take us farther apart?

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Another thing you mentioned there is because you don't look like an honest farmer and I think that.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And you found out that they were even though you looked different than them, they were very open and willing to connect with you.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely again, you know, I'm not from Sweden. I'm a black man from Galon, find a mama, dad's from Panama.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also from UCLA and when I was riding around on my e-bike in my little omit hat, they were so welcoming. They were so intentional with who I am and they invited me in.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the thing I had a lot of biases about the omit.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a lot of opinions that I thought they believed one thing or another. Here's the thing, we can never truly know anything about somebody unless we actually get face to face with them, breath to breath with them and have honest conversations.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was so welcomed by that entire community willus and I are like best friends now whenever Carlos and Willis are together we call ourselves Willis and we made ourselves a little nicknamed for each other.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've been up there four or five times helping them with landing and you know, I mean I'm a little East Galathe farmer now. I'm accepted into the omit club.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_07]: One point I want to re-here towards the end of the book, you say we are the most digitally connected generation in the history of the planet earth and it would not be a stretch to say that we are also the loneliest.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_07]: We don't have a lot of time left to take about a minute to talk about that.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely you know, I think that these screens and things they can connect us and there's there's good things about it. This book isn't about wife phones or bad.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: This book is more about why it's beautiful on the other side of the phone and I think that because we connect so much digitally.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We forgotten what true community looks like face to face conversations being with each other disagreeing in person yet loving the other person.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just state that you know, as you fall in love with what's on the other side of your phone, you're going to find yourself in more face-to-face communities with people that love you want to support you and you will find that your loneliness begins to slowly, but surely dissipate.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_07]: We have more information about you on our website at pointofu.net and I think we have a link to your new book reconnected, but nature and few are the other books that you have because you've published a number of them.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I have absolutely so I've published a book called How to Human Three Ways to Share Life Beyond What Distracts Divides in Disconnected.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That one I think is super helpful in this pretty divisive time.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And probably one of my more popular books is called Kill the Spider, how to get rid of what's holding you back and I think if any of your listeners are having problems with getting past things, behaviors or things that they can't seem to get past that book kill the spider can help them out as well.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Well Carlos, thank you so much for joining us with a book that is meant for our time and maybe some people will take a look at it and then decide to set their phone aside and see how it goes for. Thank you so much.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Dr. Matthew.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_07]: When we come back we're going to turn to Dr. Al-Marie. Let's talk about the Wedgewood Baptist Church attack that happened 25 years ago.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_07]: We're on the 25th anniversary of that attack. Stay with us on point of view.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_05]: It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority. They say men can be women and women men.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_05]: People are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their politics.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens. It's overwhelming so demoralizing you feel like giving up, but we can't.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_05]: We shouldn't. We must not. As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II, never given. Never given. Never never never never never yield to force.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. And that's what we say to you today. This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We can't do it alone, but together with God's help. We will overcome the darkness.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Invest in biblical clarity today at point of view.net or call 1-800-347-51-51.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Point of view.net and 8347-51-51.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Point of view will continue after this. You are listening to point of view. The opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_05]: And now here again Dr. Merrill Baton.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_07]: And welcome back to point of view. September 15, 1999. That's 25 years ago this past Sunday. A killer walked into Westwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth and decided to start shooting.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_07]: And it ended up being a huge tragedy both for the church, but good things came out of it. The pastor at the time was Dr. Al Meredith.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_07]: He is now a meritist pastor of the church and he is also a Beatit's, a the adjunct professor at Baptist University teaching there.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_07]: He is a doctor of the church and he is also a full disclosure here.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Because in my wife, that's it's Al Meredith and we made named our first daughter, Maritith after that branch of the family.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_07]: And he is joining me now to discuss that incident.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Dr. Merrill, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me on.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_07]: You got your PhD from Michigan State University, both your master's and PhD and you've been teaching history for some time.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_07]: But then 25 years ago you became part of history. Tell us a little bit about what happened that evening.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was five months after column by and we're 13 people were killed up in Denver. And that was a real shocker.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There have been a series of mass shootings at schools in Padukar, Kentucky and Pearl Mississippi and then calm by.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But nothing happened in churches but on this night 25 years ago, a psychological deranged paranoid schizophrenic man who thankfully no one had ever known.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's no one to blame.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Walked into our church, armed with 200 rounds of ammunition, two pistols on a pipe bomb and began firing.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the time he was done eight people were dead, seven others wounded physically and hundreds of others wounded psychologically.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was such a shock. It was Wednesday night.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I got to tell you the evangelical church pipeline is fascinating internet every dream of every other evangelical churches having a youth group meeting or prayer meeting.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And they broke up in the middle of it. It's been a shooting in poor words.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We got to stop and break right now. And that was us.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And, but out of that terrible tragedy came many, many spiritual victories and a chance to share the gospel with a watching world that was just hanging on every word.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you were, you are already struggling because you were coming back on a flight.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just delivered the funeral service for your mother. I think a day or two beforehand. So you would normally have been at the church, but you weren't landing until I guess about right when the service was over.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I got in time, but I was I can remember.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I spent the weekend with my three sisters singing my mother into heaven.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And she died on Saturday. The funeral is on Monday. I preached her funeral took care of all these details.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember that Wednesday morning, sitting on the dock in front of my family home, thinking, oh God, when I get back to Fort Worth, I want any time to process this grief because I hadn't had time to reflect.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I was literally brain dead and that's the way God prepared me. So for once, out there, to go out of the way.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So the Holy Spirit could speak to me. That kept me from going into shock with everything going around and also to share out of moments notice microphones have been my face with questions.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm astonished people say, oh you blessed me when I heard you on Larry King live and I said, well, tell me what I said because I was brain dead and I church my bury and I kept all those videos and I go back and oh wait a go, you nailed that one.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I didn't think. Let's go. Did just amazing how God used.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I think what was it? A seven died and another four or five injuries are that had to go to the hospital. There were several tragedies from that.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: There were seven injuries and if you include the shooter who took his own life eight people died.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Tell me what was your thinking as you got there because by that time I think the police were coming around you had you just had a massive of first responders and others getting there very quickly.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. I had gotten a seven year student to take perming for me because I just got in town. I wasn't wasn't able to lead a perming but I was planning on being at the youth rally.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Our youth minister who is see at the pole day where students voluntarily meet around their flag pole before school know what else supervision just pray for the schools.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we go to camp in summer time with about a dozen other churches in the area and we invited all those churches and other areas churches and we had the pristine camp to lead in worship.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It was going to be a saw you at the pole rally. Well, I was going to be there. I was in town but through a circumstance is I was running a little late.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just getting off the table. I got a phone call from the religious editor at the start of telegram saying there's a shooting insurance. I said there must be some mistake right at her.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I hung up and immediately one of my deacons called so I got in my car we live five minutes.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Got with him two blocks and it was all court and off and I looked at the church. It looked like a beehive. There were four five helicopters flying around the Mason and each other.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I got there other other chaos just children screaming in shock parents screaming for their children in shock can't find them.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And the first scene I saw was my staff counselor on the grass and a ministering missionary nurse on furlough holding a plasma trying to replace the blood.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And my youth minister saw me and came across the mirems and I said tell me who we lost.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And from there it was trying to come everybody down trying to help the police round up all the students to the school.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was just in time for press conference at seven o'clock on the sidewalk outside and got there and someone put a microphone in my face and said where was God and all of it.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_07]: And what was your answer to you, go?

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kidding.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The answer God gave me.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Was God is exactly where he was when his own son was truly tortured in murder. He is on the throne of the university's not up for reelection there's no primary for this office.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He is a sovereign Lord of the universe and he is a parent that knows what's like to see his son murdered.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And tonight or today, he is weeping with us and he knows and he cares but he is in control.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said as far as those seven kids as far as we know every one of them new cries so we haven't lost anyone.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we know exactly where they are the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_07]: I should mention that there is was a book written by this, the attack came in 1999 and 2000 the book night of tragedy, donning of light by a doctor, our Dan R Crawford who was a professor at the seminary at the time.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_07]: And you and your comment, of course you have a forward to the book.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_07]: But talk a little bit about what's happened since then because there was as you mentioned this is there had been shootings at schools but this becomes one of the first I guess major attacks on a church and since then we've seen so many more especially in the recent days.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_07]: But there wasn't really sort of a playbook for how one responds on these things when it happened at Wedgewood.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well every time there is a shooting, especially if there is a shooting at church I get called by all the major networks and news and PR and whatever else.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I kind of become a guru of grief in the metroplex here you know what are they feeling now what do you tell this kind of thing.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And how to respond what to go through this kind of thing and that's happened as a result plus I've been asked to speak the first year I spoke I never missed a Sunday preaching.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That first year I knew my people needed me but I spoke 84 times on television shows and in rallies and conferences that first year second year was 60 something but I've spoken over and over again.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_07]: And tell us what we've learned what you've been learned from that.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well that's another book everybody said you ought to write a book and my response to all the world has too many bad books I don't want to add to their numbers but finally I can't remember when the last one was a couple years ago and the questions are always the same.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I could answer my sleep and the Lord told me it's time to write a book and try to be obedient to the prompting spirit so I did write and I was the surviving catastrophe is the title.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not just her shootings it's catastrophe in any organization what to do how to deal with a press what not to say.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The theology of suffering because in America we don't talk very much about we're so glad handed it.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to try and pull and our approach to religion and tell us we don't have a job just enough to put it happen.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_07]: How about how about how that thought we have to take a break and we'll be right back.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_04]: You're listening to point of view your listener supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_07]: And we're back with our final segment with Dr. Al Merida he is the past Ramarades of which would back to church that was the church that 25 years ago with shooter when in and began taking lives.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Now tell us a little bit about it has the church changed since that how did that affect the church.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course the church is changed it doesn't the definition of a living organism that doesn't change is a fossil.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we existed all we changed but it did affect the church one thing that came up we drew closer together.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You realize when the lights go out you need each other all the more and so we just bonded.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I was told by denominational leaders and other pastors get ready your church is very likely got a full because no church can understand this much traumas always be filled with guilt and blame and grief and what it.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's only and this death of this traumas is too much for any church to handle but in fact we grew by 50% in the next five years.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was the spirit was there we were pulling together a wonderful other thing happened is that the church has a hole in the Terrac County and the Metroplex.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We grew together I had been praying for years with a group of Catholic priests in New the Lord and assembly of God pastor church Christ pastor.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well the the shooter had historic church of Christ backgrounds his grandfather had founded church of Christ north of them.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the local church of Christ is a few blocks away we're wondering what can we do and they were meeting together on that Friday or Saturday and they were praying for us in a called Permay so let's go down see well my administration is going crazy because we decided to have church at morning anyway.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And he you know the carpet was torn up there was blood so queues and bomb shards in the dry wall and they swept and cleaned up and planted flowers at the entrance way that is still there to this day.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And just dear dear friends and the the evangelical churches of for us just pulled together and the community pulled together I can't stand up about the first responders the city council the mayor.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And as a city we pulled together rather than let the attack destroy us and drive us apart God served to draw us together.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_07]: You know in the book night of tragedy donning of light they have a chapter in there for they raise some of the questions that people would normally ask let me just sort of run some of those values you just did the forward to the book but.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_07]: How does the church respond when to evil and evil acts like this some people will say well that's clearly indication that their God does not exist because it wouldn't let evil happen how does the church respond to evil.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one God is not the author of evil.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: God created man in a perfect environment as man who chose to send and death and sin destruction evil of this all to man's own choices.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So evil is a very real thing but God is promised to turn all the evil things into good to those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose and we saw that happen over and over again.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: In the next few weeks hundreds of cards and letters came to us where youth groups saw conversions and the gospel was shared.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: At the memorial service on Sunday afternoon at the TCU football stadium CNN broadcasted it around the world and we got emails from Japanese ministry to Pan as a hard road ahead of their very resistant to gospel.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But they had people walking through department stores in Tokyo and televisions were some of set to CNN and there they heard me talking about the blood of Jesus and how we knew where these kids were and because of their faith in Jesus Christ well what's this about calfrey and the blood of Jesus.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And people in the trying to witness to came asking them and came to know Christ as a result so that's the sum of the good things that God brought about through this.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_07]: You know when when tragedy like this happens parents of young people there were several young people who were killed are injured in the shooting.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_07]: They can become hardened and turned away what happened with the parents there.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: One parent in particular Cassie Griffon a 14 year old her mother father.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course when it's terrible and don't deny people the privilege of grieving don't tell them you shouldn't be sad or you shouldn't cry they're in a better place that nonsense to tell a person who's lost a child not the greener like telling a man of the broken leg not to walk with a link to tell me shouldn't ask why.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you kidding me? The only person I've lived was perfect in every way was Jesus Christ in dying moments of the cross he said ask my god my god why if Jesus can ask why we can ask why be honest with your.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: With your questions your doubts your fears and your anger God can hang your hand on your hand but David Griffin.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Cassie's father went into a spiritual funk and for several years he couldn't pray he was anger with God he couldn't understand.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: He just came spiritually dead until God's planning made a breakthrough and he's come out he's an elder at our church and.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Scottish school directors and youth workers and does but had to bring him through that.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So I tell people don't tell people what they should or shouldn't feel let's.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_07]: The things that has occurred since the past several years as it churches have had to be much more cautious they've had people in there.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Many cases who are ready to respond to this and it creates a challenge doesn't for a church that wants to be open for people but also has to be careful about people.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well it does and Jesus himself said, be wise of servants and harmless.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the first church security teams became in rogue but you know we were told why didn't we have police officers, you need to have a police presence just to deter that.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But about a month after the shooting on a Sunday night a young man came through the door skin head tank top shirt wife feeder shirt tattoos and everybody held their breath what is this and he came in sat down in the service started.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And he got up and ran out well, breathe aside the least.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The next Sunday night he came back and he made it through the song service going I started to preach you up and ran out.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Third Sunday stage through the whole service and came down at the invitation and gave his life to Christ instead I'm on probation but I violated my parole.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going back in a jail and I don't know if I can survive I need Jesus to help me to get through it.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Well if we were had people's door to stereotype who we should let in see we to shut the door on.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But we need to reach for having sex those are the people that need the Lord most so you don't want a security team that's stereotyping people by their dress or their tattoos or whatever else.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You want them to be ready and eyes open and have a plan but our doors need to be open to the outcasts of the town truck and the broken heart it.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's who Christ came say is serve in the state.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Well I don't thank you for joining us I it's it was a tragedy but I can't think of a better pastor to have been in place during that situation because of just the message you've been able to take.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you buddy and be sure to say hello to my cousin Connie you realize we both married over our head.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_07]: I agree with that completely thank you.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay take that.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_07]: That was Dr. Al Meredith and as I mentioned we have a link to the book night of tragedy donning of light if you're interested in that and he mentioned the book that he is written in response to that.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_07]: And I want to thank Megan for being the engineer today and Steve for being a producer and thank you for joining us on point of view.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_05]: The Bible tells us not to worry and yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Thankfully the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry God gives us a next step.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_05]: He says we need to pray but sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult and that is why point of view has relaunched our pray for American movement a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Each week yours Eva brief update about a current issue affecting Americans along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Will you commit to pray for America?

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Go to point of view.net click on the pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Again that's point of view.net click on the pray for America banner.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Point of view is produced by point of view ministries.