Point of View October 9, 2024 – Hour 2 : Beyond Our Control

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] You know, sometimes we think we actually have control over our lives, and yet I think we oftentimes learn that much of what happens is beyond our control.

[00:00:29] And that's what we're going to be talking about this hour.

[00:00:31] It is a new book that came out in November, Beyond Our Control, Let Go of Unmet Expectations, Overcome Anxiety, and Discover Intimacy with God.

[00:00:41] I'll warn you ahead of time, we're going to be talking about everything from infertility to adoption to illness to loss.

[00:00:48] I mean, we are going to cover the gamut of those emotions and feelings, and we are going to do that with two friends of this ministry.

[00:00:56] First of all, Lauren Green McAfee, who is the founder of Stand for Life.

[00:01:01] She's also the ministry director of Hobby Lobby, author of Only One Life, Not What You Think, a legacy study created in the image of God.

[00:01:10] She's also the founder of the Bible, pursuing a PhD in ethics and public policy.

[00:01:13] We've talked about that work that she is doing.

[00:01:16] And, of course, with her father, helped found the Museum of the Bible, worked as curator and artifact collection manager, and much more.

[00:01:23] So, Lauren, welcome back to Point of View.

[00:01:26] Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be with you again.

[00:01:28] Also, Michael is with us as well.

[00:01:30] He is the president and founder of Inspire Experiences.

[00:01:34] He also is a PhD student studying public theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and an individual that is also a teaching pastor.

[00:01:45] And so, Michael, welcome back as well.

[00:01:47] Thanks. It's great to be with you.

[00:01:49] Lauren, let me come to you because, first of all, the introduction, if you will, the preface for the book and the foreword is by Dr. John Townsend.

[00:01:59] It reminds us that, of course, we sometimes misinterpret various passages in Scripture.

[00:02:05] And that almost immediately leads us into the first chapter about some of the half-lives we tend to believe.

[00:02:14] We have these, they're sort of true, but they're half-lies.

[00:02:17] And as a result, we tend to maybe not necessarily understand Scripture and think that maybe, indeed, we actually have a handle on biblical interpretation when we really do not.

[00:02:31] Right. Well, that's it.

[00:02:33] We wanted to really start from the outset as we were diving into this book and we're going to be talking about challenges that we have faced in our lives,

[00:02:41] really address what we might have as beliefs or preconceived ideas about what God owes us or what it means to live a Christian life.

[00:02:53] And so we're grateful that our friend, Dr. John Townsend, who many might know as the author of the best-selling book, Boundaries, as well as many other books,

[00:03:03] he's helped us just as a friend process through some of this and think through what does the Scripture say?

[00:03:09] And as we've done our studies, what does the Scripture say about when we come up against hard things in life?

[00:03:14] And many times we'll read passages where we see, you know, God has good in mind for us.

[00:03:22] He promises to give us blessings and good things.

[00:03:25] And while those are true, we do have to look at the whole of Scripture to gain the full perspective of what it is that is the picture of life on this earth and serving the Lord in every area of our lives.

[00:03:40] And you don't have to look very far in Scripture to also see that there will be pain and there will be hard circumstances.

[00:03:48] And even if you're doing all the right things and you're trying to serve the Lord, pain and hardship will still come in this life.

[00:03:58] And we see over and over in Scripture, if you look at particular examples,

[00:04:03] even just the book, the entire book of Job is about that narrative of, you know,

[00:04:08] here is this person who lived an upright life and was being praised as someone who is honoring the Lord,

[00:04:17] yet he was still faced with obviously tragedy in his life and great loss.

[00:04:23] And so the Lord will use painful circumstances, losses in our lives,

[00:04:29] things that are outside of our control to draw us closer to him, to bring glory to himself,

[00:04:38] and as well use that for our good.

[00:04:40] And so a lot of the book is trying to unpack that,

[00:04:45] but we wanted to start with kind of what might be some misconceptions that we have whenever we do face pain.

[00:04:51] And I think probably a lot of people, whenever they've walked through a painful circumstance,

[00:04:56] can reflect back on what their initial reaction, and I know for myself it was, you know,

[00:05:02] questions like, why is this happening?

[00:05:04] Why would God allow this to happen in my life?

[00:05:08] And those questions were telling me something about what I was believing,

[00:05:12] which was that, you know, hard things or these bad things shouldn't happen in my life.

[00:05:19] And, you know, Scripture, like I said, Scripture doesn't promise that we're going to have an easy life,

[00:05:23] and it doesn't promise that hard things won't come our way.

[00:05:27] But one of the promises we can cling to is that God is with us always, even in the painful circumstances.

[00:05:34] Michael, let me come to you because you, of course, wrote this chapter,

[00:05:37] and I think the really telling part was if you look at Psalm 127,

[00:05:43] that children are a blessing from the Lord and a reward.

[00:05:46] I have heard many an infertile couple say, well, if that's a reward, why is God cursing me?

[00:05:53] And I first came to that understanding years ago when I'd written a book on genetic engineering,

[00:05:59] and I honestly thought if I heard from anybody it would be about these new genetic techniques.

[00:06:03] But instead, because I'd had a chapter in there about artificial reproduction,

[00:06:09] I was instead hearing from all sorts of modern-day Hannahs who were desiring children

[00:06:16] and wanting to know more about some of those technologies.

[00:06:21] And if you are dealing with infertility, you can understand why some people say,

[00:06:26] wait a minute, if God loves me, why is it I can't have a child?

[00:06:30] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:31] Like, why would God keep something that he says is a blessing,

[00:06:36] that he is seemingly, that is a promise, that it is something that we will receive?

[00:06:41] You know, over and over again, you see promises throughout Scripture of seemingly, like,

[00:06:47] if I do X, then God will reward me with Y.

[00:06:50] So why, if I don't have Y, if I don't have the reward, then why is God not holding up his bargain?

[00:06:55] Or am I not doing, am I not good enough?

[00:06:57] Am I not holding up my end of the bargain?

[00:07:00] And so it makes, tries to turn God into this, like, cosmic slot machine, right,

[00:07:04] where, like, or cosmic vending machine where you put in the coins and, you know, type in what you want.

[00:07:10] And that was the half-life or the half-truth that I was believing as we were delving into this

[00:07:17] is realizing that I had expectations that so many things had gone well for me, had gone right for me.

[00:07:22] We have a great wife.

[00:07:23] We have a house.

[00:07:24] We have food on our table.

[00:07:26] We have all these things I just took for granted as, oh, well, these are things that I have because of what I've done.

[00:07:32] And as a result, not only was I have a misconception of what I should expect in life

[00:07:38] and that God tells us that we should expect hardship because of the fall,

[00:07:41] but also I was denying God the very worship that he created and crafted me to give to him,

[00:07:47] where I would explode with joy and gratitude for all the things that I do have.

[00:07:52] And so those half-truths, I mean, especially that relates to things like fertility,

[00:07:57] which we've struggled with for years now.

[00:07:58] We've wanted to have biological kids for coming up on a decade,

[00:08:01] and that has not, to this point, been the Lord's will for our lives.

[00:08:04] And we don't have answers, and we're not the saddest story anyone's ever read,

[00:08:08] but we're, I think, just a very normal couple of grappling with our own story through infertility,

[00:08:13] through adoption, through childhood cancer, and beyond our control, just asking,

[00:08:17] okay, Lord, why is it that we're not receiving the type of life that we expected,

[00:08:22] and what is it that you're trying to offer us instead?

[00:08:25] Because what ultimately God gives us is better than what we asked for,

[00:08:29] but it's just not better in the way we expected it to be.

[00:08:32] Let's take a break, and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation

[00:08:35] as we talk about this new book came out in November, published by Thomas Nelson.

[00:08:40] Beyond Our Control, Lauren and Michael McAfee with us,

[00:08:43] and we'll be back with them right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] Recent story from CBN News reports that there have been a fourth major collegiate revival in the last month.

[00:09:08] According to the story, thousands of students gathered at the University of Arkansas on Thursday night

[00:09:12] to seek Jesus Christ and find salvation in His name.

[00:09:15] Unite U.S. reports that 10,000 students from 67 different universities gathered in Bud Walton Arena.

[00:09:22] One young man shared his powerful testimony right before getting baptized at the event, saying,

[00:09:27] I spent a lot of years running from God.

[00:09:29] I just came to Jesus about five weeks ago, but I got caught up in, I'll just say, cocaine and alcohol.

[00:09:35] I had a lot of really near-death experiences,

[00:09:38] and I think Jesus had His hand on my life because I should not be here.

[00:09:42] The other campuses reporting a revival last month include the University of South Carolina,

[00:09:47] Texas A&M at Corpus Christi, and Ohio State University.

[00:09:50] You are probably also aware of the major revival that took place on the campus of Asbury College in early 2023.

[00:09:57] Jerry Newcomb wonders if the recent campus revivals will spill over to the nation.

[00:10:02] He reminds us that poll after poll documents that millions of Americans feel the country is headed in the wrong direction.

[00:10:08] He goes on to argue that there's a great need for a national revival,

[00:10:12] and then reminds us of the First Great Awakening.

[00:10:15] That revival began in the 1730s with the preaching of Reverend Jonathan Edwards

[00:10:20] and spread through the colonies due to the work of traveling evangelist George Whitefield.

[00:10:24] He quotes Benjamin Franklin and John Adams who witnessed the impact of the revivals that led to the Great Awakening.

[00:10:31] America needs a revival and a reformation.

[00:10:34] I pray that what is happening on campus will spread to the rest of the country.

[00:10:38] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:46] For a free copy of Kirby's booklet, A Biblical View on Antisemitism,

[00:10:51] go to viewpoints.info slash antisemitism.

[00:10:54] viewpoints.info slash antisemitism.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Back once again while we are talking with Lauren Michael McAfee.

[00:11:07] Again, the book is entitled Beyond Our Control,

[00:11:09] Letting Go of Unmet Expectations, Overcoming Anxiety, and Discover Intimacy with God.

[00:11:16] Well, Lauren, let's see if we can talk about Zion.

[00:11:19] Your daughter diagnosed with cancer when still a baby,

[00:11:24] and that, of course, not only gets us into the issue of misconceptions but expectations.

[00:11:30] Can you kind of fill out the story for us?

[00:11:33] Yeah.

[00:11:34] So for those that aren't familiar with our story, you just hinted at it,

[00:11:37] but we, you know, along with our infertility journey, we were also pursuing adoption.

[00:11:41] And so we were in the adoption process.

[00:11:44] That was actually the first way that we tried to grow our family was through adoption.

[00:11:49] And began pursuing that and ended up our international adoption,

[00:11:56] kept having roadblocks and delays and issues that were beyond our control.

[00:12:01] And after seven years of pursuing adoption and praying that the Lord would bring us a child through adoption,

[00:12:10] we finally brought home our daughter, Zion, from China.

[00:12:13] And she was a year and a half old.

[00:12:16] And we brought her home, and we were just getting used to, you know,

[00:12:19] the first season of parenthood and being a family of three.

[00:12:23] And then we were doing some routine medical checks when we got a phone call and said that we needed to rush to the emergency room,

[00:12:32] the children's hospital, and that our daughter had a tumor on her liver, and it ended up being cancer.

[00:12:40] So here we had a one-and-a-half-year-old.

[00:12:43] We had been parents for a month-and-a-half, and now we were walking cancer with our daughter.

[00:12:50] And that was a moment in life that, you know, you just never expect to have to walk through a diagnosis like that.

[00:12:59] And I remember thinking it felt so unfair that we had waited for seven years for this child,

[00:13:07] and now just, you know, less than two months in, having that longing fulfilled,

[00:13:14] and here we were navigating a life-threatening cancer diagnosis.

[00:13:19] And whenever you say that you believe something, it's one thing to say that when things are going okay and things are good,

[00:13:30] but to have those beliefs in the moments where what you believe is being tested

[00:13:36] and you're going through a difficult season and you're going through those trials,

[00:13:41] it's a very different thing to continue to believe that.

[00:13:46] And I think those seasons where your beliefs are kind of pressed

[00:13:51] and you are pushed to grapple with and wrestle with what you believe

[00:13:55] are really seasons that can bring about great blessing

[00:14:01] because it can solidify what you have said you believe

[00:14:05] in a way that you can't experience if you don't go through the hard times.

[00:14:09] So, you know, for me, that looked like questioning God's goodness.

[00:14:14] And if he was really in control, then why would he allow this to happen?

[00:14:19] And so I had to continue to go back to Scripture

[00:14:21] and look for truth about what God says about himself

[00:14:25] and remind myself of his character,

[00:14:28] even though things seemed so bleak and so dark in my own life circumstances.

[00:14:35] And having watched through that and coming out on the other side,

[00:14:39] feeling that, you know, even though I had said that I believed this in the good times,

[00:14:46] I also still believed it.

[00:14:48] Thanks to, you know, God and his Holy Spirit giving me the strength in those moments.

[00:14:51] It meant something deeper having walked through that.

[00:14:55] And thankfully, with Diane's experience, she did come out on the other side of that in remission.

[00:14:59] And she's almost four years into remission now.

[00:15:03] But certainly those seasons of darkness and those seasons of trials

[00:15:06] can give us a certain strength to our faith and our beliefs

[00:15:10] that we might have not had otherwise.

[00:15:12] Michael, let me talk to you for a moment because, again, as a teaching pastor,

[00:15:16] it seems to me that the lesson of this book,

[00:15:19] and maybe the lesson of how you teach,

[00:15:21] is the chapter talks about the misplaced hope in control,

[00:15:26] the illusion of control, and then the reality of control.

[00:15:30] And it does seem to me that if we're going to equip people for the 21st century

[00:15:34] or just really equip them for life,

[00:15:36] they're going to have to give up this idea that I can be a micromanager

[00:15:41] and that I can control my life because that's just not the way things work out.

[00:15:46] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:15:47] I mean, the idea that we're kind of masters of our own fate,

[00:15:51] that's not as much a biblical concept as it is a product of enlightenment thinking.

[00:15:59] And so for us, saying that life is beyond our control

[00:16:03] isn't meant to lead us to just kind of a fatalistic worldview by any means

[00:16:07] or anything like that.

[00:16:08] But it is to say that what we were talking about last segment,

[00:16:12] that, hey, recognize that everything you have in your life,

[00:16:15] that we so often attribute the things that we have to ourselves

[00:16:20] and to our own efforts and deny the fact that it is God.

[00:16:24] And so likewise, when we look forward to things that we want,

[00:16:27] we think it's within our grasp.

[00:16:28] And if we don't have it, it's because we're not working hard enough

[00:16:30] or because we don't have enough faith or because of some other reason.

[00:16:35] And the reality is that ultimately our hope is not that life is going to get better

[00:16:40] and better in this world.

[00:16:41] Our hope is not that for anyone that's listening that's missed out on a promotion

[00:16:45] or a job opportunity or lost their job recently,

[00:16:48] that there's a better career around the corner for them

[00:16:51] or a relationship that's broken,

[00:16:52] that there's a more significant relationship or a better spouse or whatever it is

[00:16:56] that we so often want to say, well, I know things are bad now,

[00:17:00] but they're going to get better in this life.

[00:17:03] And you can have hope that things are going to turn around for you

[00:17:06] in terms of your earthly existence.

[00:17:07] And the reality is it might just get worse or it might never be quite the same.

[00:17:13] That while Zion did, her health has recovered,

[00:17:16] that our other story is with our son Ezra, who we had for a year,

[00:17:21] we expected to adopt, was a member of our household.

[00:17:25] And through some unusual court circumstances, we had to say goodbye.

[00:17:29] And representing just our pain, the pain of the hopeful adopted parents,

[00:17:35] that pain ultimately drove us to seek deeper intimacy with God

[00:17:40] and a greater hope beyond what we could experience in this life with Ezra.

[00:17:45] Well, let's see if we can.

[00:17:46] Michael, talk about that because you have a chapter that you've written on intimacy,

[00:17:50] the joy of his presence.

[00:17:51] And it does seem to me that some people might think, okay, pain, grief, lament, intimacy?

[00:17:58] How does that all fit together?

[00:18:00] Can you help us out?

[00:18:01] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:03] Well, the idea is if you look at Scripture, it's clear and it's consistent

[00:18:07] that God not only allows but ordains difficult circumstances in our life

[00:18:13] for the purpose of bringing us into greater intimacy with him.

[00:18:17] So we even laid out the chapters in the form of a chiasm with the center of that chiasm,

[00:18:22] or in other words, the point of the arrow, so to speak, aiming at intimacy with God.

[00:18:27] When God does take something from us, he intends to replace it,

[00:18:31] not necessarily with something better in this life, but with more of himself.

[00:18:36] And that is better than whatever he has taken from us,

[00:18:38] giving us more of his presence, more of himself.

[00:18:43] He is the purpose, he is the point, he is the joy that we've been seeking

[00:18:48] in all other things in this life.

[00:18:50] And so that's the pruning that often happens where we get more of the true vine.

[00:18:54] Well, and that kind of relates to a conversation I had with my producer the other day.

[00:18:57] You know, if God closes a door, well, that's because he has something better for you.

[00:19:01] No, not necessarily.

[00:19:03] It may be better in the sense spiritually, but, you know,

[00:19:07] if you don't get this job promotion, well, maybe there's a better job promotion.

[00:19:11] No, not necessarily.

[00:19:12] Those are kinds of things that really need to be kind of set aside.

[00:19:15] And, again, it's back to some of those misconceptions.

[00:19:19] We're coming up to a break, and I thought maybe when we come back,

[00:19:22] I would have Lauren and Michael, both of you, to maybe address some of these issues.

[00:19:27] Maybe we'll start in the negative in terms of grief and lament,

[00:19:30] but then talk about prayer and hope and peace, perspective, even perseverance,

[00:19:37] because those are important aspects of that as well.

[00:19:39] And let me just mention that this book actually has 11 chapters.

[00:19:44] Like he says, it all points to chapter 6, which we just talked about in terms of intimacy.

[00:19:49] But what I think is so helpful about the way this book is put together

[00:19:54] is for those of you that maybe have a small group or a Sunday school class,

[00:19:58] as you go through that chapter, then there's a section at the end of the chapter

[00:20:04] in which you have a chance to collect your thoughts.

[00:20:07] And you can begin to find some questions.

[00:20:11] There's a way in which you might get some journaling ideas.

[00:20:15] And then there's a whole section on how to address some of those particular questions.

[00:20:21] So, again, it is written in such a way that you may actually not only want to go through this individually,

[00:20:27] but it may be something that you could go through collectively through various groups.

[00:20:32] So let me just simply mention that these are some resources that are available.

[00:20:36] And if you would like to know more about any of the individuals we're talking about today,

[00:20:42] we, of course, have a link to, for example, standforlife.com.

[00:20:46] That will give you some great information there.

[00:20:48] We also, of course, have some other information about Michael.Bible.

[00:20:54] And, of course, we have information about the book.

[00:20:56] You should be able to find it in your local bookstore.

[00:20:59] It is published by Thomas Nelson.

[00:21:02] And, again, it's a book with about 200 pages, some very significant chapters.

[00:21:07] And I think, if nothing else, would be just a great help for all of us,

[00:21:11] but especially if you're going through a difficult time,

[00:21:14] to recognize that this book is about beyond our control,

[00:21:18] let go of unmet expectations, overcome anxiety, and discover intimacy with God.

[00:21:23] We'll continue our conversation right after this.

[00:21:31] Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age.

[00:21:36] Well, today, there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:21:41] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important

[00:21:45] and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information.

[00:21:53] Let me give you a suggestion to help with that.

[00:21:56] Visit pointofview.net.

[00:21:58] Look at the tabs across the top.

[00:22:00] Find the one named Viewpoints.

[00:22:02] Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news

[00:22:07] to identify those issues that you really need to know about.

[00:22:11] They boil things down in a brief summary,

[00:22:13] and then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved.

[00:22:18] Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints,

[00:22:22] you'll see exactly what I mean.

[00:22:24] You'll see the issues that we are covering right now.

[00:22:27] And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will,

[00:22:31] you can slide on over, enter your email,

[00:22:34] and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day.

[00:22:38] That's it.

[00:22:38] Take a minute now.

[00:22:40] Now be informed.

[00:22:41] Pointofview.net.

[00:22:43] Click on Viewpoints.

[00:22:48] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:58] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:03] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] Continue your conversation today as we talk about this new book,

[00:23:17] Beyond Our Control, Let Go of Unmet Expectations,

[00:23:20] Overcome Anxiety, and Discover Intimacy with God.

[00:23:24] Lauren and Michael McAfee with us,

[00:23:25] and we are talking about some of these very important issues of control.

[00:23:30] And Lauren, I thought maybe I would come to you for just a minute,

[00:23:32] and we have done some programs in the past about everything from grief to lament,

[00:23:38] but that is a very significant part of this whole moving towards intimacy with God.

[00:23:45] Can you maybe share a little bit from your own experience?

[00:23:49] Yeah.

[00:23:49] I think considering and processing grief, especially this time of year, is a really important topic.

[00:23:56] I think with holidays, I can often bring up reminders of pain points in life,

[00:24:02] whether it's lost relationships, loved ones who have passed and are no longer here,

[00:24:07] or, you know, painful relationships.

[00:24:10] And so I'm glad that we're getting the chance to talk about this.

[00:24:14] So we write about grief in our book because having walked through, you know, cancer with our daughter

[00:24:20] and then having had a son for a year that we had to say goodbye to,

[00:24:25] we certainly had to navigate what grief looked like for us.

[00:24:30] And I want to, you know, first look at what we can see from Scripture,

[00:24:37] which is that God created all human beings in the image of God.

[00:24:41] And so as image bearers, we are created to reflect God.

[00:24:45] And we're not, we are not God, but we are created in his image,

[00:24:50] which means that there are certain things we reflect that are like him.

[00:24:53] And so God as an emotional being, as someone that has positive emotions,

[00:24:59] he created good things, he can enjoy things.

[00:25:03] We were created with emotions as well.

[00:25:06] And so as we consider how we were created with emotions and for those emotions to be stewarded

[00:25:14] and processed in a healthy way, I think we can then approach grief knowing that in a fallen world,

[00:25:22] there are negative emotions.

[00:25:25] And so we will experience, you know, pain, loss, sadness, grief.

[00:25:30] And in Scripture, we see also a lot of processing of negative emotions in the form of lament.

[00:25:39] So lament just means to express your grief.

[00:25:43] We have the Book of Lamentations, which is a book with the word lament in it.

[00:25:47] You know, it's a book about the lament of God's people.

[00:25:51] And you look in the Psalms and you see the psalmist writing about and kind of journaling through their prayers

[00:26:01] and their laments before God.

[00:26:03] And so as we see that example, we can know that as we do face the pain in our own lives

[00:26:10] and try and process that, it is good to acknowledge and make space for the negative emotions of sadness and grief

[00:26:17] and to acknowledge that.

[00:26:20] And someone that wrote a number of resources that were really helpful for me was a Christian psychologist

[00:26:27] named Diane Langberg, Dr. Diane Langberg.

[00:26:30] And she gave a really helpful kind of three-step process for navigating grief, which I thought was helpful.

[00:26:38] And that is that it takes talking.

[00:26:41] So, you know, having community to process that with healthy and safe relationships you can process through your pain,

[00:26:48] as well as talking to God in prayer.

[00:26:50] So healing from grief takes talking.

[00:26:52] It takes tears, so allowing that emotion to come out.

[00:26:57] And then also it takes time.

[00:26:59] So healing is a process and time is a part of that healing process.

[00:27:02] And so as we, in Christian community and with the Lord, take part in talking, allow space for our tears,

[00:27:10] and give it time, God can work to heal us from those wounds that we have and from our grief.

[00:27:17] Michael, let me come to you because as a pastor,

[00:27:20] you recognize that we don't have a whole lot of messages that we give from the pulpit

[00:27:24] or even in life groups or small group messages on lament.

[00:27:29] And yet there's, of course, a chapter in here about prayer.

[00:27:33] And lament is a prayer in pain that leads to trust.

[00:27:36] And it does seem to me that we need to begin to equip people in our churches and in the body of Christ

[00:27:42] to understand how that actually works.

[00:27:45] Right.

[00:27:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:47] I mean, I think it is such a, it's important to recognize that it is a spiritual discipline

[00:27:51] and that it is good for us, that we were, that Jesus himself, Jesus is the, you know,

[00:27:59] the truest expression of what it means to be human, not only what it means to be God,

[00:28:03] and that in his humanity that Christ not only went through suffering,

[00:28:08] but he was a man that was acquainted with sorrow and was acquainted with grief,

[00:28:13] that he goes to the funeral of his beloved friend Lazarus,

[00:28:18] knowing that he's about to raise him from the dead.

[00:28:22] And yet we get the shortest verse in the Bible, you know,

[00:28:25] in our superimposed verse structure, Jesus wept.

[00:28:28] And so it is good for us to take time to lament.

[00:28:32] And I think it comes from a good place that we, or comes from the, not from pure motives often,

[00:28:38] of knowing that the story of the resurrection is the story that while there is a cross,

[00:28:43] that the cross isn't the final word, that death ultimately is defeated.

[00:28:47] And so because that's the story that we're heading towards at the end of Revelation,

[00:28:51] I'm preaching Revelation 21 this Sunday, like because that's the culmination of the story,

[00:28:56] we know that there's a happy ending, sometimes in our own lives,

[00:28:59] and sometimes when we encourage others, we want to push forward to that happy ending before it's time,

[00:29:06] sort of before Resurrection Sunday has come.

[00:29:08] And I know for us at least, like as we dealt with our own, you know,

[00:29:14] our disversion that everyone goes through of hard times and difficulties and challenges,

[00:29:18] that it was people that would come alongside of us and were just kind of okay with us being not okay,

[00:29:23] that we're okay with us being in a period of lament and mourning,

[00:29:28] and not in a way of wallowing in our pain unnecessarily,

[00:29:31] but in a way of not just kind of immediately rushing to, hey, it's, you know,

[00:29:35] I know you're sad you lost Ezra, that you weren't able to adopt him,

[00:29:39] but, you know, you'll be able to adopt another child.

[00:29:41] And you know what?

[00:29:42] Like you knew that this could happen.

[00:29:44] And so like it's kind of trying to brush aside, it was invalidating in a lot of ways.

[00:29:50] It's, you know, not their motive by any means,

[00:29:53] but those that helped us to recognize the importance of lamenting,

[00:29:58] of expressing grief, and of processing the loss that we experienced,

[00:30:03] was so helpful in that season as we prayerfully learned to trust God,

[00:30:10] even in the midst of pain,

[00:30:11] even when like the Charles Spurgeon has this great quote of God is too wise to be mistaken,

[00:30:18] and he is too loving to be unkind.

[00:30:21] And when we cannot trace the hand of God to know what he's doing,

[00:30:24] we must learn to trust his heart.

[00:30:26] And so that's ultimately what lament friends and family,

[00:30:30] our community that helped us to lean into prayers of lament,

[00:30:33] helped us to do is to say,

[00:30:35] Lord,

[00:30:35] even though we can't trust you in the midst of this dark circumstance,

[00:30:38] and there's no way that we can see where our life is improved because of not having our son Ezra in our home,

[00:30:45] Lord,

[00:30:45] we will trust you even in the hard times.

[00:30:47] Wow.

[00:30:48] Lauren,

[00:30:49] again,

[00:30:50] we have some chapters that kind of look to the end points,

[00:30:54] hope and peace.

[00:30:55] Now,

[00:30:56] again,

[00:30:56] it would be tempting for some people to think,

[00:30:59] well,

[00:30:59] that's just being Pollyanna or very naive about the future.

[00:31:03] But there is a sense in which,

[00:31:05] as we're talking about this issue of lament,

[00:31:08] of grief,

[00:31:09] of really not having control.

[00:31:11] In some respects,

[00:31:13] this issue of hope and peace are very important elements to have some of that in perspective.

[00:31:21] Yeah,

[00:31:22] that's a good reminder that you just mentioned that kind of Pollyanna perspective,

[00:31:26] but I think whenever we do try and point towards hope and peace,

[00:31:30] like Michael said,

[00:31:32] we don't want to get there too,

[00:31:34] not necessarily too quickly,

[00:31:36] but only going there and not acknowledging the reality of the pain.

[00:31:41] But as we do acknowledge the pain and validate the real difficulty,

[00:31:46] we also do have the ability as believers to bring with that the joy of hope and peace that we can have in this life because of the promises we see in Scripture.

[00:31:59] And so as we know that the things of this world are not the ultimate day of what our life is to be,

[00:32:07] we can know that we have eternity to look forward to.

[00:32:10] And so it's a perspective shift that I think can bring a lot of peace and hope whenever we do see this life in light of our eternal promises,

[00:32:21] and not just the here and now.

[00:32:24] And so as we look at an eternal perspective,

[00:32:26] we know,

[00:32:27] you know,

[00:32:28] Michael,

[00:32:29] as he said,

[00:32:29] is preaching on Revelation 21 this coming Sunday.

[00:32:33] And I was reading that passage yesterday,

[00:32:36] giving a devotional with my staff at the office,

[00:32:39] and I can't help but read that,

[00:32:43] the first opening verses of Revelation 21 without getting emotional because it is a promise that

[00:32:49] the Lord will come back and make things right,

[00:32:52] and every tear will be wiped away,

[00:32:55] and death will be no more.

[00:32:57] And that is a beautiful promise that as believers,

[00:33:01] we,

[00:33:02] even as we're in our pain and making space for grief,

[00:33:06] can hold to those promises that give us great strength and in the midst of that,

[00:33:10] and great peace and joy,

[00:33:12] that is not explainable in this world,

[00:33:16] right,

[00:33:17] to have something that's eternal to hold on to,

[00:33:19] gives us something that the world can't offer.

[00:33:21] And that's a part of what can give us peace in the midst of our tumultuous season.

[00:33:27] Let's take a break.

[00:33:28] When we come back,

[00:33:29] just a few more points that we can make as we talk about Beyond Our Control,

[00:33:34] let go of unmet expectations,

[00:33:36] overcome anxiety,

[00:33:37] and discover intimacy with God.

[00:33:39] It's published by Thomas Nelson,

[00:33:40] written by Lauren and Michael McAfee.

[00:33:43] We'll be right back.

[00:33:56] You're listening to Point of View,

[00:33:59] your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] Back once again,

[00:34:02] talking about the book Beyond Our Control,

[00:34:05] and Lauren and Michael with us.

[00:34:06] And Michael,

[00:34:06] let me come to you because perseverance is one of the things you write about.

[00:34:10] You say,

[00:34:10] whenever a stressful situation shows up in my life,

[00:34:13] I fall into a worst-case scenario state of mind.

[00:34:16] Oh,

[00:34:16] that sounds familiar,

[00:34:17] doesn't it?

[00:34:28] perspective.

[00:34:29] And a chapter you've written about perseverance.

[00:34:31] But that's important because we need to have an eternal perspective and recognize that what looms large at the moment is going to be so insignificant in light of eternity.

[00:34:44] Exactly.

[00:34:45] Exactly.

[00:34:45] Yeah.

[00:34:46] You know,

[00:34:47] it sounds really depressing to go to worst-case scenario,

[00:34:50] but it's a habit and exercise that rather than kind of spiraling has helped me to go,

[00:34:57] okay,

[00:34:57] what's the very worst thing that could happen?

[00:34:59] And realizing,

[00:35:00] in the grand scope of eternity,

[00:35:02] is this that bad?

[00:35:03] Is this something that I really should,

[00:35:05] if I'm not going to be worried about this in 10,000 years when I'm bright,

[00:35:08] shining as the sun,

[00:35:09] like,

[00:35:09] does this,

[00:35:09] does this really need to consume my everything today?

[00:35:13] Or do I need to just steward this moment in the best way I can,

[00:35:16] knowing that ultimately God is the one who's sovereign and in control of what's happening before me?

[00:35:20] And so I know for myself,

[00:35:22] when I was in high school,

[00:35:24] I had a youth minister that challenged me to memorize James chapter one,

[00:35:28] verses two through four,

[00:35:29] which says,

[00:35:29] consider it pure joy,

[00:35:31] my brothers,

[00:35:31] when you face triumphs,

[00:35:33] when you face challenges of various kinds,

[00:35:35] because,

[00:35:36] why would you think that?

[00:35:38] Because the testing of your faith develops perseverance,

[00:35:40] and perseverance must finish its work so that you may become mature and complete,

[00:35:44] lacking in nothing,

[00:35:45] right?

[00:35:45] I mean,

[00:35:46] everyone has seen in their own lives that they can point back to times,

[00:35:50] of,

[00:35:50] of challenges and struggles and difficulties at the times that they were refined in the fire to become who,

[00:35:56] who they are today.

[00:35:58] And so,

[00:35:59] um,

[00:35:59] Lord willing,

[00:36:00] hopefully that that has been a time where you've leaned into God.

[00:36:03] I know that as I look back in my life,

[00:36:04] I can say this only by God's grace,

[00:36:06] that when those,

[00:36:07] those waves crashed,

[00:36:09] when my parents' marriage fell apart,

[00:36:11] when we went through difficult times in our own marriage,

[00:36:13] when cancer,

[00:36:14] an unexpected cancer diagnosis hit,

[00:36:16] or when we had to say goodbye to our son Ezra,

[00:36:18] that all of these things that I could have easily used those to run from God,

[00:36:24] um,

[00:36:24] but instead that by his grace that I was able to run towards him,

[00:36:29] or that he rather,

[00:36:29] uh,

[00:36:30] ran towards me and beckoned me,

[00:36:32] um,

[00:36:32] to him.

[00:36:33] And so that's,

[00:36:34] that's the hope is that,

[00:36:35] uh,

[00:36:35] through,

[00:36:36] uh,

[00:36:37] a shift in perspective for eternity,

[00:36:39] that we would have the ability to have perseverance,

[00:36:41] knowing that ultimately at the end of the day,

[00:36:43] that Romans 8,

[00:36:44] 28 is true for all of us,

[00:36:46] that God does work all things together for good.

[00:36:48] Like we've talked about,

[00:36:49] it's just not necessarily the,

[00:36:51] the simple,

[00:36:52] like your life is better in the here and now,

[00:36:54] but it is that you are being made into the type of person that God created you to be.

[00:36:59] And he's replacing the desires that you,

[00:37:02] you thought you had for these other things and not,

[00:37:04] not taking them away or not,

[00:37:05] not completely replacing the thing that you lost,

[00:37:07] uh,

[00:37:08] until we get to the new heavens and the new earth where all the,

[00:37:11] the sad things will become untrue.

[00:37:13] You know,

[00:37:14] Lauren,

[00:37:14] let me,

[00:37:15] if I can maybe talk about this idea between an earthly perspective and a heavenly perspective,

[00:37:19] because the apostle Paul in second Corinthians four verse 17 talks about our light and momentary troubles,

[00:37:27] which are achieving for us in eternal glory.

[00:37:30] And in some respects,

[00:37:31] I remember when I first read that as a Christian,

[00:37:33] I thought light and momentary.

[00:37:35] I mean,

[00:37:35] I've seen people with some major problems that they have dealt with.

[00:37:39] And then it occurred to me that the apostle Paul wasn't,

[00:37:43] uh,

[00:37:43] actually immune to some of the major challenges.

[00:37:47] I mean,

[00:37:48] he had been stoned.

[00:37:49] He'd been shipwrecked.

[00:37:51] He had been incarcerated,

[00:37:52] no multiple times beaten.

[00:37:55] Um,

[00:37:55] and yet he was saying that when you look at that from an eternal perspective,

[00:38:00] Steve,

[00:38:01] what seems so heavy,

[00:38:03] so grievous,

[00:38:04] so unbearable actually will from the light of eternity seem like light in momentary troubles.

[00:38:12] Yeah.

[00:38:13] And that is a,

[00:38:14] a shocking concept in some ways,

[00:38:17] because I know that when,

[00:38:19] when there are listeners that are in the midst of that really deep grief,

[00:38:24] it can feel so,

[00:38:25] um,

[00:38:27] painful and so unbearable.

[00:38:29] And I remember being in that place after losing our son,

[00:38:33] Ezra and for anything to see,

[00:38:37] to be called light,

[00:38:38] uh,

[00:38:38] and momentary,

[00:38:39] it didn't feel that way.

[00:38:41] And so I think I would hope that listeners hear you talk about that passage and reflect on that scripture and find encouragement that,

[00:38:51] yes,

[00:38:51] even though that the pain is dark,

[00:38:54] um,

[00:38:54] there is hope because of that,

[00:38:56] because of that promise that the Lord,

[00:38:58] um,

[00:38:58] in light of eternity is,

[00:39:00] is with us and we're not facing the pain alone.

[00:39:03] And,

[00:39:04] um,

[00:39:04] I also would like to just mention too,

[00:39:08] that community,

[00:39:09] Christian community is so important too,

[00:39:11] in that,

[00:39:11] um,

[00:39:12] as we're walking in the pain and as we're reminding ourselves of the promises of the Lord,

[00:39:17] that,

[00:39:17] that in eternity and eternal perspective,

[00:39:19] um,

[00:39:20] that these,

[00:39:20] these circumstances in our life are going to be considered light and momentary.

[00:39:25] We also,

[00:39:27] um,

[00:39:27] look to the ways that we can be encouraged to continue forth in our faith and certainly having Christian community around us.

[00:39:35] And for,

[00:39:36] for Michael and I,

[00:39:37] we,

[00:39:37] we continued to lean into our church and,

[00:39:41] and lean into the believers that were around us that we had been living life with.

[00:39:46] And so,

[00:39:46] um,

[00:39:47] Christian community was so helpful in pointing us towards those promises that you just mentioned when we didn't feel those promises.

[00:39:55] And we're,

[00:39:56] we're just so grateful for,

[00:39:58] um,

[00:39:58] the strength of the body of Christ holding us up whenever we didn't feel like we could hold ourselves up in those promises.

[00:40:05] Michael,

[00:40:06] Michael,

[00:40:06] let's talk about the value of community and in particular,

[00:40:09] how you could use this book because this I've mentioned before,

[00:40:12] but maybe you can go into it in more detail at the end of every one of these chapters is there is a chance to collect your thoughts.

[00:40:19] And then usually four questions that you suggest.

[00:40:23] And so this is something that as individuals certainly could go through this individually.

[00:40:29] I think within the body of Christ,

[00:40:31] within a small group setting,

[00:40:33] a life group setting,

[00:40:34] maybe even a pastor preaching through this from the pulpit,

[00:40:38] this would be a great encouragement to the body of Christ.

[00:40:41] Yeah,

[00:40:42] absolutely.

[00:40:43] And,

[00:40:43] uh,

[00:40:43] and,

[00:40:43] and we would love,

[00:40:44] you know,

[00:40:44] we,

[00:40:45] we speak regularly.

[00:40:46] And so if there is anyone that we could encourage either individually or as a church family or a group,

[00:40:50] we'd love to do that.

[00:40:51] And,

[00:40:52] and yeah,

[00:40:52] I had someone this week that told me that they have been working through the book on their own,

[00:40:57] and then they will bring the questions,

[00:40:59] uh,

[00:40:59] to a,

[00:41:00] a group of men that,

[00:41:01] that he's discipling and has sent out one or two of the questions as a conversation starter.

[00:41:06] And so,

[00:41:06] um,

[00:41:07] there's a lot of ways that the book can be used,

[00:41:09] but the,

[00:41:09] the,

[00:41:09] that is only as helpful insofar as it sparks conversation to point people back to the scriptures and back to the gospel ultimately.

[00:41:17] And so that's,

[00:41:17] that's our hope and our prayer with beyond our control and with everything in our ministry is that it would point back to Christ and point people deeper to the scriptures because that's where,

[00:41:26] that's where true hope is found.

[00:41:27] And so even in this hard season,

[00:41:29] I mean,

[00:41:30] I know for us as we're approaching,

[00:41:31] it's a,

[00:41:32] this Sunday is two years ago that we,

[00:41:34] the last day we saw our son and had to suddenly say goodbye with two hours notice.

[00:41:39] And,

[00:41:39] uh,

[00:41:39] and so Christmas season for us as well,

[00:41:41] kind of brings up a lot of those emotions.

[00:41:44] And just as an encouragement,

[00:41:45] it has been for us a steadying anchor to know that God himself knows what it is like to suffer,

[00:41:52] that,

[00:41:52] uh,

[00:41:52] that Christ ultimately,

[00:41:53] uh,

[00:41:54] suffered for us on the cross and that God himself as a father knows the loss,

[00:41:59] knows the sting of watching,

[00:42:00] um,

[00:42:01] uh,

[00:42:01] of,

[00:42:01] giving up a son and watching a son die on the cross for us.

[00:42:04] And so whoever's listening,

[00:42:05] that needs to be reminded,

[00:42:07] like we,

[00:42:07] that's the beauty of Christianity,

[00:42:09] the truth of Christianity,

[00:42:10] that God does not stand apart from this world and suffering,

[00:42:13] but engages with it and suffers on our behalf.

[00:42:15] So we could be made whole.

[00:42:17] Lauren and Michael,

[00:42:18] I always appreciate both of you in all the conversations we've had with you,

[00:42:22] the round table discussions and the rest.

[00:42:24] And I want to thank both of you for,

[00:42:26] uh,

[00:42:27] participating today.

[00:42:27] Thank you for writing the book beyond our control.

[00:42:30] This is a lie.

[00:42:31] Thanks for having us.

[00:42:33] Let me just mention that as we wind down the interview,

[00:42:36] that again,

[00:42:36] this is a book entitled beyond our control,

[00:42:39] let go of unmet expectations,

[00:42:42] overcome anxiety,

[00:42:44] about 200 pages,

[00:42:45] great material that you could go through individually.

[00:42:48] You could go through collectively.

[00:42:50] And it's just a great way to recognize that though we think we have control over our lives,

[00:42:56] I think we are starting to learn that we don't control as much as we might think.

[00:43:00] So again,

[00:43:01] I hope you've enjoyed the interview and I hope you've been enjoying listening to point of view.

[00:43:11] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:43:17] They say men can be women and women,

[00:43:20] men.

[00:43:21] People are prosecuted differently or not at all,

[00:43:24] depending on their politics.

[00:43:26] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law abiding citizens.

[00:43:31] It's so overwhelming,

[00:43:32] so demoralizing.

[00:43:34] You feel like giving up,

[00:43:35] but we can't,

[00:43:37] we shouldn't,

[00:43:38] we must not.

[00:43:39] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:43:43] never give in,

[00:43:45] never give in,

[00:43:46] never,

[00:43:47] never,

[00:43:47] never,

[00:43:47] never yield to force,

[00:43:49] never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:43:53] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:43:56] This is not a time to give in,

[00:43:58] but to step up and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:44:04] We can't do it alone,

[00:44:05] but together with God's help,

[00:44:08] we will overcome the darkness.

[00:44:10] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net

[00:44:15] or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:19] pointofview.net

[00:44:21] and 800-347-5151.

[00:44:26] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.