Point of View October 8, 2026 – Hour 2 : Washington State Forces Church to Fund Abortion

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View. And now, Liberty McCartney. Thanks for joining me on Point of View and staying with me into the second hour. Still talking with Dr. Andrea Gurney. We have an article posted at pointofview.net. I encourage you to check out. Here's how we can turn the tide on the dating recession.

[00:00:33] So, Dr. Gurney, you talked a moment ago about a new initiative that you have helped to spearhead. It is DEAN, the Dating Education Action Network. And you talked about how it was a multidisciplinary network of experts who are coming together to try to really provide that dating education and help equip young adults. And something else you said that I think is so important is that really young adults need a blueprint of what a healthy relationship and healthy marriage looks like.

[00:01:01] And so many lack that blueprint. So, you had a kickoff event last night. I'd love to hear about that. Have you received a lot of interest? Are you hearing things that people in ministry and schools and different areas are already doing to try to encourage dating and what's going on in that scene? Well, yes, that's a great question. We did have a good amount of interest. We had folks that were researchers, academics, pastors, public policymakers.

[00:01:29] It was very exciting for the kickoff event. We're going to start doing a monthly update and newsletter, start kind of establishing different working groups, if you will, because there are folks who are saying, we've got to get into the high schools and start teaching relationship literacy when they're in high school so they can start having the courage and work up to these things. Others are really interested in that young adult groups. So, we're going to have a small working group that looks at the college age.

[00:01:55] And there's many. And certainly as a clinician, I see this both in my private practice and in the college classroom. There's both emerging adults, the young 20s, but there's plenty of folks that are approaching 30 and early 30s that are feeling frustrated and stuck and exhausted. So, we would break up those groups and think about, okay, what are some of the practical pathways that we can create, different research-driven curriculum that we can create,

[00:02:21] some of the natural pathways that churches can actually be a part of. So, there was a good amount of interest. We already have our next meeting set to gather folks, and we're hoping more will join us as we continue to get the word out. That's encouraging. And before we go, I do want to make sure that you can give people websites or links or resources in case they're interested. But just to kind of dive into some of the goals of that a little bit and break down, okay, what would this look like?

[00:02:51] What does a dating education action network look like? And one of the things you talk about is promoting a cultural paradigm shift. Now, obviously, like that's something that has to happen kind of from the ground up in some of these different, you know, local environments that you're talking about. But tell us a little bit more about that because in our first segment a few minutes ago, you talked about how this consumerist mindset commodification really has taken over how we think about relationships. And so, what do we need to do in order to shift that paradigm?

[00:03:21] That's a great question. And we realize we have a lofty goal to promote that cultural paradigm shift from this consumeristic approach towards a growth-oriented character-first framework. So, some of it is, as you said, it's ground up. It's thinking about what can we all do in our spheres of influence in regards to trying to teach young people to dismantle some of the myths that they have swallowed,

[00:03:47] to think about encouraging real-world risk to create these low-pressure environments. So, we are still working on trying to get the word out there and actually developing more robust kind of curricula and pathways. But I think the more that – and this is for everybody. This is for parents, grandparents, mentors. The more that we can be speaking about these things in, you know, if we're married, if we're a grandparent, but we've got young adults in our lives,

[00:04:15] how do we start modeling relational vulnerability? How do we start dismantling the soulmate myth, right? How do we reframe rejection in a culture that has removed the natural friction of life and rejection through technology, right? Because we can do everything online. We can entertain ourselves, order food. We can work online. So, a lot of these young adults are so scared to kind of take a risk and put themselves out there.

[00:04:42] So, I think the more that we are all doing that and speaking explicitly, openly, and honestly with the young adults in our lives, that's how we're going to start kind of doing this cultural shift, right, and hopefully driving a bit of a cultural paradigm shift from this transactional approach to a character-first approach. So, I would encourage everyone listening, whatever your role.

[00:05:07] We all know young adults, whether it's high schoolers or whether it's college students or those in their late 20s or early 30s who are feeling overwhelmed, who are desiring a partner but don't have a pathway to get there, right? So, really, I think being open, explicit, and honest with those folks in our lives would be a great start so that everybody could help us with this paradigm shift. Yeah, I love that. And one of the things you mentioned is also, you know, just to kind of drill down into that for a moment,

[00:05:36] is creating those practical pathways because so many, you know, kids have been raised in the digital revolution, really, and so there aren't as many in-person environments where kind of, you know, meeting other people is even facilitated. We've only got a couple of minutes left, but I'd love for you to maybe just talk about that vision for a minute and what that can look like in, like, a church or a school or a community. Yeah, it's a great question, and this is what we are still really wanting to think about because as a person of faith,

[00:06:06] I want to see churches be on the front lines of this. How can they offer structured, real-life kind of meet-and-greets social settings where young adults can interact naturally without the pressure of, you know, an immediate romantic commitment? And we could have other older mentors there who are married couples. So whether that's just fun events that churches, communities are putting on that are gathering individuals

[00:06:34] and maybe even at times even doing some social skills teaching on this, right, encouraging them to take risks. And I think the more that we have folks modeling that, that would be helpful. So we're still getting our heads around what does that look like, wanting to get into churches to speak about this. I've thought about developing a curriculum about four kind of pillars of dating coaching, if you will. I'm not a dating coach, though.

[00:07:00] There are plenty of folks who are, but I think there can just be a natural way in which we all do this with those people in our lives who we love and care for and help them figure out it's okay to walk up to somebody and have that social courage. And even if they say no or reject you, that doesn't wipe away who you are, right? Like getting into the arena instead of staying on the sidelines is part of it.

[00:07:25] And they feel scared to do that because, once again, a culture that has been online for so many of them for so long, so they just remove all tension and friction because they communicate through a screen. And I know we're running out of time, but so I hope so. I think we're still really figuring out how do we create those low-pressure environments. But I think churches can hopefully lead the way in that. Yes, I love it. Dr. Andrea Gurney, thank you so much for being with us today.

[00:07:51] And where's a website or a link that people can go to if they want to maybe sign up for the newsletter and stay in touch? So they can look at NARME, N-A-R-M-E.org. Right now we are kind of housed under that, and there will be a dean update, and they're going to be highlighting deans. They can sign up for the free newsletter at NARME.org, National Alliance for Relationship and Marriage Education. Wonderful. Well, Dr. Andrea Gurney, thank you for joining us today.

[00:08:21] You can go to our website, pointofview.net, and you can click on the picture of Dr. Gurney right there, and you can see the articles that we've posted as well where you can get that information on how we can turn the tide on the dating recession. I really encourage you to check that out and see how maybe you and your community, maybe your church, can get involved. We'll be right back on Point of View after this short break.

[00:09:00] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. You know, you could say that William Shatner is the most famous astronaut in the world. Until recently, he was not a real astronaut, but he is best known for playing Captain Kirk in Star Trek's TV series and movies. Last year he did go into space, and it had such an impact that he started crying and now has written about it in his memoir, Boldly Go. You know, at age 90, he had a life-changing experience by going into space.

[00:09:28] He thought it would be a fulfilling experience to see planet Earth from a different vantage point. Others told him that they were struck by the apparent fragility of this suspended blue marble. He also experienced the strongest feeling, dominating everything else by far, was the deepest grief I've ever experienced. When he looked away from Earth towards the rest of the universe, he didn't feel attraction.

[00:09:51] Instead, he realized that we are a tiny oasis of life surrounded by an immensity of death. There's a name for that experience. Space philosopher Frank White called it the Overview Effect, which is the title of his book by the same name. It comes from the emotional shift in a person's awareness when they see Earth from space. You gain a greater understanding of the preciousness of Earth. So I think we can draw two conclusions.

[00:10:18] First is environmental stewardship, which was Shatner's conclusion that he wanted to protect Earth for his grandchildren and great-grandchildren. We need to do all we can to prevent the destruction of this planet. But a second conclusion is intelligent design. Earth is not an insignificant speck in the galaxy. Earth is our home. He was created by God for us, and we can now measure all the fine-tuned parameters that show God's fingerprints. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:49] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Well, we've been spending the last few minutes talking about the dating recession, but what about the happiness crash?

[00:11:12] This is another report from the Institute for Family Studies that I wanted to talk about because the dating recession, marriage decline, happiness crash, they are related. So I thought it would be good to highlight this since it does relate to what we were just talking about with Dr. Andrea Gurney. And so what we are seeing is that since 2000, reports of unhappiness have more than doubled from 11% to 23% for men and women aged 20 to 35.

[00:11:38] So in 26 years, you have seen unhappiness rates among young adults double. But two groups are really protected from this. Married individuals and religious young adults. They have largely escaped the happiness crash.

[00:11:54] Now, maybe that's not super surprising, but when you do have a culture that is really what Dr. Gurney was describing, that is very consumerist mindset, a culture that idolizes individualism over any sort of covenantal commitment or family,

[00:12:11] then the message that we get in the media a lot, including from entertainment media and news media and that young people have grown up with is that commitments are bad, that relationships can drag you down, that we do have we do commodify other people. We commodify basically every member of the human family at this point. So when it comes to relationships, it's basically looked at as a product.

[00:12:39] And does this product satisfy me? Am I going to get a good return on my investment? And if not, then I'm going to exchange this product for another one. That is the attitude that has been created. And so if we've been raised in church and with happy families and we've got a good, solid relationship with the Lord and we know what we believe, then we may say, well, of course, you know, I'm going to be happier and more fulfilled and joyful if I've got that security.

[00:13:06] But for people who weren't raised in that environment, that might not be the case. And that's why this research is so important. And when you're having conversations with people or maybe you're having conversations with someone who is arguing that, you know, marriage isn't good for people, that it's not natural, people were never designed for monogamy. You'll hear, you know, atheists argue that kind of thing. You can point to data actually that says that's not that's not true. That's wrong. So let's go through some of this.

[00:13:31] Did you know that social isolation, according to research by psychologists, increases the risk of early death by 29 percent? Loneliness increases the risk of early death by 26 percent. And living alone increases the early risk of early death by 32 percent. Now, obviously, that doesn't mean that anybody who lives alone is necessarily going to have that risk.

[00:13:55] But when you are seeing a trend where more people have been in communities, in religious communities, in family communities and environments to where people are becoming more socially isolated, it impacts health. It impacts lifespan. And there are a lot of reasons for this. We got into some of them with Dr. Gurney. But a big reason is that we can't get away from is technology, is the digital revolution. So I think that this article that's from the Institute for Family Studies really puts it well.

[00:14:24] This is by Dr. Brad Wilcox that we've interviewed here. He's the author of the book Get Married, which is another book you should read. But he says that when it comes to social isolation, we have been running a new experiment. And its unwitting subjects are the young adults who grew up amidst the digital revolution. Smartphones and social media, not to mention gaming, pornography and AI chatbots have crowded out face-to-face conversation, socializing and community life among teens and young adults.

[00:14:53] Now, yesterday, whenever I was interviewing Barry McGuire and we were talking about AI, artificial intelligence, one of the statistics that I cited, and I had just found this recently, according to Pew Research, I think it was 61 percent. It was over 60 percent of teenagers report using AI, report talking to a chatbot. But only 51 percent of parents in the United States said that their teen used a chatbot.

[00:15:21] So that means a lot of times, you know, kids are on these devices, they're interacting with these digital tools and parents aren't aware of it. I've covered other stories in the past about, you know, really, really sad where students are turning to AI to try to help them craft texts to their friends, that they would rather text people instead of talking in person, that they are using chatbots for therapy instead of talking to their friends about their problems because they don't want to be a bother.

[00:15:49] It's that friction that they have grown up without. And so whenever you've grown up without that, then how do you embrace that? How do you get over, you know, rejection not only by somebody that maybe you're interested in dating, but just by a friend of, you know, maybe they're having a grumpy day. Maybe they don't want to talk to you right now. Maybe they can't answer your text or your call. Well, that's just part of life.

[00:16:09] But if you if you've been raised in this, you know, digital revolution, this unwitting experiment, as Wilcox calls it, then you haven't had that life experience to help you learn that that that that is OK. That that is normal. And so it leads to this loneliness. It leads to more isolation. And while digital tools can be great, you know, I love being able to FaceTime or Zoom with a friend that lives in another part of the country or make a phone call to somebody.

[00:16:36] You know, those are great to kind of bridge the gap when you can't be with your loved ones or can't see your friends all the time. It is not a replacement for embodied community, though. So too many people treat it as though it is. And they think that even though they're that they're connected, you know, online, that they're somehow connected in reality. I think more people are waking up to the fact that that's not the case. But there's a report. You can find it if you click on this article that we have at pointofview.net called The Devout Difference.

[00:17:04] And it is showing that if we want to protect people from the isolating currents of modern life, again, two things really inculcate people against this isolation that we are seeing. Strong marriages and regular religious practice. Okay, so according to a survey, 50% of married religious Americans between the ages of 20 to 35, that's the same demographic that has seen a double and reported or doubling of reported unhappiness.

[00:17:32] 50% of those Americans at that age who are married and religious describe themselves as very happy compared with just 16% of their unmarried secular peers. And so while marriage alone can boost somebody's happiness, the combination of faith and family is the most powerful. Now, why does this matter beyond what we know as Christians, which is that there is inherent goodness? I mean, obviously, we need to have our restored relationship with God. That's number one.

[00:18:00] And so we need to be religious. We need to have the right religious faith, right? We need to believe in the God of the Bible and have that relationship with him for our own salvation and fulfillment. But family is an inherent good established by God in the Bible. It is one of the pillars of society. It's the foundational one. But if we were, again, trying to talk with people, maybe we're arguing, we're convincing. What does it matter if people are getting married more or less?

[00:18:27] Is it just something that people chose to do? Did they, you know, somebody who doesn't believe in God's intelligent design might say, well, people just evolved to do that for protection. It's not necessary anymore. And so people aren't really leading that kind of lifestyle. Or is there actually social good behind it? Well, here's one of the things that we're seeing. And honestly, this is concerning to me. This is something that Dr. Wilcox points out. It's not just, okay, that people who are socially isolated are anxious. They're more depressed.

[00:18:57] They're unhappy. We've seen that. But young people who are isolated and adrift are also more vulnerable to counterfeit communities, including counterfeit communities that can flourish online. What are some of the things that we talk about quite often on Point of View? The radical, the radical ends, right? The radical left and the radical right as well. You've got socialism and anti-Semitism really popping up, not just on the far left, but you're starting to see that on the far right.

[00:19:26] When people don't have a sense of community, a healthy sense of what good community looks like, when they don't have what Dr. Gurney mentioned a few minutes ago, a blueprint of healthy relationships and a real strong social tie to a network like a religious community or nuclear family, then they are going to be more vulnerable to, again, these counterfeits because people want to find meaning. Here's something else he says that I'm just going to quote because I think it's so great. People crave something bigger than themselves to live for.

[00:19:56] Marriage and faith answer that craving twice over. They call us to sacrifice for something beyond ourselves. They bind us to the people we need to survive and thrive. In a society that is really led by a consumerist mindset where we view people as commodities, whether that is somebody that you're going to enter into a relationship with,

[00:20:20] or whether even people view children as commodities, as decorations on their life that they may want to have or may not, that they can get rid of and dispose of. Whenever you live in that kind of society, again, it's very selfish and individualistic. We've lost a lot of what it looks like to have a commitment to other people where you are willing to sacrifice. We have the ultimate example in our Savior. And, of course, he said that the greatest love is being willing to lay down your life for your friends.

[00:20:49] And husbands and wives are called to do that for each other in Scripture as well. So it shouldn't be a surprise to us that people who are living according to this blueprint that we have in Scripture are fulfilled. I encourage you to look at this. It's a great resource if you want to have a conversation with people in your life about the inherent goodness of religious community and marriage and the need for that in an age of social isolation, especially among young adults. It's a great resource.

[00:21:16] And if you missed our interview that we did a few minutes ago with Dr. Andrea Gurney, be sure that you go to pointofview.net and check that out as well. But when we come back, let's talk about whether or not states can force churches to provide abortions through insurance for their employees. We'll be right back. In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle, not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:21:42] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism, and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon. London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually. Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports. Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers. Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:22:10] It is truth for all of life. Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today? Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up for the Viewpoints Commentary at pointofview.net. Every weekday in less than two minutes, you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:22:37] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash sign up right now. Pointofview.net slash sign up. Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:03] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Liberty McCarter. As you know, if you listen to Point of View, religious freedom is the very first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment of our Constitution. And it applies in so many ways.

[00:23:27] I remember talking with people in the past about all the different applications in the different fields and different states where religious freedom rules have to be applied, including in education and even in the medical field. And they were like, oh, my goodness, I never thought of that. Well, you may not have had to think about it unless you have been put in a position where you were forced to. And that's the case of a church in Washington state. So talking about that with me for the rest of this hour is Joel Noble.

[00:23:54] He is the director of public policy at Samaritan Ministries International. Joel, thanks for joining us on Point of View today. I appreciate you having me. So tell us about this legal battle that is playing out in Washington state right now regarding Cedar Park, Assembly of God, Church, and then the state of Washington. What's going on there? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:15] So Washington, like about a dozen other states, requires that any insurance policy that includes maternity must also include abortion services. And so Cedar Park, you know, being a church that's opposed to abortion, did not want their health care dollars going towards that.

[00:24:42] So they've been suing for a number of years against that. And then recently in September, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against them. And what they're saying is that it's not a problem with the law in Washington, but rather that it's a problem with the insurance companies in Washington

[00:25:06] and them not being able to find one that would provide services in their area. There is a slight carve-out if the insurer is a religious entity like Providence, for example, which is a Catholic health insurance company.

[00:25:28] They would be able to offer insurance without abortion, but then they would just have to push any of their insurer to the Department of Health if they wanted an abortion. But Providence no longer operates in Washington, and that's part of the problem that Cedar Park is having is that they cannot find an insurer there. And so any insurer that would take them would also be covering abortion.

[00:25:56] And this is, I mean, just devastating to think about, you know, if you are a ministry, if you're an employer of any kind, you've got people with families, with paychecks, with needs, and they want to be able to have those covered by insurance without having their conscience violated. And so just for somebody who maybe has a little bit of pushback and says, okay, well, does this really have to affect Christian employers? What if they just, you know, don't use it?

[00:26:26] Maybe it's covered by the insurance policy that they're paid for, but they're not using it. None of their employees are actually getting abortions. Why is that still problematic for the clients in this case? Yeah. So the reason is money's fungible, which means that that money that you're sending to the health insurance company goes into a pool that gets paid out to cover abortion.

[00:26:52] So, yes, your employees may not get an abortion or using that type of policy, but the money that you're giving to that insurance company, while none of that may come directly back to your employees, it is going to someone's abortion. It would be the same way if, you know, someone on the street has a sign that says, you know, they need money for food.

[00:27:22] You know, a lot of people just go and buy them food because then they know that, you know, that is their need as opposed to just giving them money, which then, I mean, a lot of people are opposed to because they don't know where that money's going. And in the same way, it's the same way with insurance, that you give that money, it gets put into a pool, and you have no idea where it's going. And very well, it's going towards abortion or gender reassignment or any other things that you may be opposed to in your Christian worldview.

[00:27:49] And so this is taking place in Washington State, but as you mentioned, that's not the only state. And this is something that can spread. And so why should people be paying attention to this? Maybe they live in a conservative state or in a state that doesn't have this requirement. It's not something they've ever really thought about before. But what are some of the implications of this policy in other states? Yeah.

[00:28:14] So, you know, it may not be in your state, but insurance companies a lot of times are large. And while the state may not be mandating it, your insurance company very well be paying for abortions in other states. And but you could be in a state that does. And you don't even, you know, are any aware of it.

[00:28:41] I think it was just yesterday the mayor of Washington, D.C., signed into law requirement that now all the policies in the District of Columbia has to cover abortion. Wow. So it's it's, you know, spreading. You know, I when I talked about this, you know, previously, just, you know, last year in some other interviews, I was talking about, you know, the 10 states. And now I'm talking about the 12 states. And so it's it's it's growing.

[00:29:11] And and it's good for believers to be aware. I mean, it's not just insurance. I mean, one of the, you know, things I saw pop up very recently was about the Trump accounts. And people are super excited, you know, to be able to get this money. But one of the things that there's a big push for is bilically responsible investing and to get that cleared so that, you know, OK, this account that I have for my newborn child.

[00:29:39] Where's that money being invested? And so it's kind of, you know, this type of thing where you may say, OK, I'm OK with my health insurance. But how about my investments or how about where I spend this dollar? And it just kind of brings overall awareness to believers of, hey, how's my money being spent? Yeah, absolutely. We have to be paying attention and be paying attention to what's happening in other parts of the nation as well.

[00:30:07] So, you know, maybe you can enlighten us maybe with just some other examples. I do. Well, after we get back from the break in a few minutes, want to go more into Samaritan Ministries and the services that you provide there. Sure. But this maybe isn't something people have thought about when you come up against insurance or the medical field and you've got a conscious conscience conflict there. What are some examples maybe that you've heard of of people who have run into that kind of scenario?

[00:30:36] Yes. So probably the one that, you know, I'm most familiar with was when the ACA or what, you know, is commonly known as Obamacare came about, everyone was required to buy insurance or pay a penalty. And I took a phone call from a lady that found out about health care sharing, particularly Samaritan. And there was a carve out, you know, in the law for health care sharing. So you could be a member and not be subject to the penalty.

[00:31:07] And she was literally in tears saying I was going to have to buy insurance and I was going to it was going to, you know, the policy was going to have me paying for abortion, even though I'm not going to use that. And then I found you all. And, you know, she was just, you know, in tears about the idea of like, I didn't know what I was going to do. I needed insurance, but I couldn't, you know, do this, you know, on my conscience and pay for this.

[00:31:34] And so examples like that, once they once folks find out and, you know, and realize that my health care dollars are going towards things that, you know, any other day I'm, you know, maybe I'll holding signs, you know, on the street protesting again. And then I, you know, write this check to pay for it in another sense. Hmm. Wow. Well, we're talking with Joel Noble. He's the director of public policy at Samaritan Ministries International.

[00:32:03] And before we go to a break, I do want to just highlight this because this issue of religious freedom, of conscience freedom with regard to the medical field, with regard to what's happening between you and your doctor and your money and the decisions that you're making. This is a real issue that's affecting many Americans and people who have not experienced that conflict might not be aware of it. So thankfully, we do have friends both at ADF who I think are taking care of this case out of Washington State.

[00:32:33] Also, of course, First Liberty Institute. And let me just mention before we go to the break, a resource that you might want to be aware of. This is from First Liberty Institute. It's something that they put together every year called Religious Liberty in the States. And if you go to religiouslibertyinthestates.com, you'll see a map of the United States.

[00:32:53] You can click on your state and you can see what religious freedom protections exist in your state in multiple different arenas, including medical religious freedom. And again, there are many applications of this that people are often not aware of protecting doctors, protecting medical staff, protecting the patient from any sort of thing that would come in conflict with their religious freedom and with their conscience. So you can also see what kind of protections other states have. Maybe that you're like, I would want my state to have that.

[00:33:23] And now I see this. I see what it looks like. I'm going to advocate for that at my state legislature. So religiouslibertyinthestates.com. Check that out over the break and see what the protections are in your state. But when we come back, we'll keep talking with Joel about protecting religious freedom in the medical field. We'll be right back.

[00:33:57] You're listening to Point of View. Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back for a few minutes with Joel Noble, Director of Public Policy at Samaritan Ministries International. And I mentioned right before the break Religious Liberty in the States and how you can go to religiouslibertyinthestates.com and click on your state and see if there are any protections for religious freedom, specifically in the medical arena.

[00:34:20] We've been talking about a case out of Washington State where there is a legal battle going on with the church in this case, the Cedar Park Assembly of God. And they don't want to be forced to pay for abortion through their insurance policy for their employers. And so, but this is something that, as you said, Joel, this is happening in multiple states. And so, you've testified before many state legislatures.

[00:34:45] And I'm wondering, is this something that when you're talking about, you know, people at the state level, are they often aware of even these kinds of policies that might be impacting or impeding, you know, the exercise of religious freedom in their state with regard to medical practice or insurance policies? Or is this something that even, like, legislatures and legislators at the state level need to be educated about? Yeah, I think some states they do.

[00:35:16] But throughout the states that I've, you know, testified in, particularly about health care sharing, I see both sides of it. I've been in states where they're, you know, very aware of health care sharing and the fact that our members know where their health care dollars are going. And they've been very supportive of that. I've been on the other side of that in some states where they know the exact same thing and they hate it.

[00:35:45] And, you know, they, you know, and they, you know, want, you know, particularly us out of their state or they want to try to, you know, start regulating us because they're aware of that. So I've seen both sides of it. I've gotten, you know, praise from, you know, the pro-life legislators for what we do. And then on the other side, those that are not, you know, not super happy that we have members in their state.

[00:36:11] So, yes, you know, they are aware, but it is, you know, still a lot of folks aren't even aware of health care sharing at all and just, you know, getting them educated on that. And then they start, you know, kind of put the pieces together of the benefit of it. You know, this is something that it makes me think this could be an opportunity for advocacy for our listeners.

[00:36:38] You know, we always talk about equipping listeners to be able to make a difference. And so there are multiple obvious issues, you know, whenever you're talking about who's representing you at your state legislature, you want to make sure that they're pro-life or that they've got views on education that align with yours or these different things. But what about advocating for more medical freedom or for the ability to do the medical sharing?

[00:37:01] And that can be something that you can ask your representative at the state level and say, hey, do you support this or I want there to be more support? You know, what's the situation in my state? I could definitely see that being something that, you know, people could look into. And I didn't know if maybe you had any more thoughts on that, Joel. I mean, we've got midterm elections coming up. So you're intimately familiar with state legislatures and kind of the state level there because you have testified in different states.

[00:37:29] And something that, you know, you see in surveys from people is that a lot of times when people go to the polls, they vote for like maybe what they've seen, you know, kind of advertised like a big federal position. But when it gets down to more of the state level, a lot of people don't vote in those elections. But they can have a really big impact on policies like this. Yeah, for sure.

[00:37:52] And, I mean, the health care sharing, you know, ministry issues and pro-life and a lot of things under the sun. I mean, folks need to be asking, you know, the candidate where they stand on a whole host of issues, whether it just be like bathroom-type bills about, you know, being able to protect folks in schools

[00:38:17] and other places that, you know, they're not going to, you know, be fearful of their young girl or their young boy being in a bathroom and someone of the other gender walks in or, you know, women in sports. And all these issues that you see, you need to be holding your candidates' feet to the fire. And because it may not be an issue that's coming up right now, but ask them if this comes up, if, you know,

[00:38:44] if my public library suddenly, you know, has a, you know, transgender, you know, librarian. Like, am I going to have to be fearful that my young child is going to be, you know, in the bathroom when this, you know, person of the opposite gender walks in? And so figure out ahead of time before the issue comes up and, you know, get them on the record on all these different issues that are important to you within your Christian worldview.

[00:39:10] Yeah, that's a great advice to ask ahead of time before it comes up. And, you know, people, we tend to be reactionary, like, oh my gosh, I just heard about this thing and I don't like that policy or that new law that passed. But what if we were vocal about it beforehand? Well, in our last few minutes here, I would love for you to just talk more about Samaritan Ministries, because as we've been talking about these religious liberty conflicts or maybe the issue of wanting to make sure that your money is going to things that you support,

[00:39:37] people might be really interested in that and wanting to check that out. So tell us about the kind of services that are provided through Samaritan Ministries. Yeah, absolutely. So Samaritan is a health care sharing ministry, which means we're not insurance. And the easiest way to explain it is it's just member-to-member sharing of medical needs. The same way that if someone in a church had a medical need

[00:40:05] and they got up during announcements and said, you know, Mrs. Smith broke her leg. She's having problems paying the bill. And they passed the collection plate around and took up an offering for her. We're just doing that more sophisticated and connecting the believers together to help with their medical needs outside of using insurance, which means it's going to be member-to-member. So the checks that you receive or the electronic transfer is not coming from us at Samaritan. It's coming from your fellow members.

[00:40:35] And the notes and cards are coming from them, and you know that they're praying for you. And all that means is when you're sending your share, you know exactly where it's going. You know it's going towards a broken leg. You know it's going towards the cancer need. You know it's going towards maternity. And on the flip side of that, you know where it's not going. You know you're not paying for someone's abortion. And you know that it's not gender reassignment or, you know, even hair transplants, which, you know, is not a, you know, conscious issue.

[00:41:05] But, you know, like, okay, this was a real need. And because it's not insurance, the real benefit is that we're outside of the state insurance code. And that's a big part of my work is making sure that we're not subject to the insurance code in states. And we've done that in nearly two-thirds of the states.

[00:41:25] And so that, you know, is kind of what we call a safe harbor to make sure that the state's not going to try to apply these same standards to us and destroy, you know, our ministerial mission. So, and that's the thing that I hear most from members is the fact that they know where their money is going and they love the choice. They love that their employer, the government, and no one's telling them where to go to the doctor

[00:41:53] because they have complete control of their health care dollars. And I love that for my own family. I talk about all the time, you know, the medical choices we've had and being able to take, you know, choose what ER that my son went to in the middle of the night. And, you know, when my oldest tore his ACL and, you know, was able to choose a doctor that worked best for him as a college athlete. All kinds of examples. And I hear that, you know, all the time from our members. Wonderful. The choice that they have. Yep. Yeah.

[00:42:22] Well, Joel, we're almost out of time here at Point of View, but thank you for joining us. And, you know, really raising our awareness of these important issues, both the legal battles that are happening around the nation that we need to stay aware of and just the options that are out there for Christians. So if you want to learn more about Samaritan Ministries, you can go to pointofview.net, click on Joel's picture there, and you can see the link and check that out and stay aware of religious freedom issues and how they relate to insurance and medical coverage. We're out of time for today.

[00:42:51] Thank you, Megan, for engineering the show and Derek for producing the show. And I hope that you'll join us tomorrow because it's going to be the weekend edition. I'll be here with you again as well as Aaron Smith from First Liberty Institute. Richard Lim is going to be back with us as well. It's going to be a great weekend edition. So I'll see you tomorrow right here on Point of View. The Bible tells us not to worry. And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:43:21] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry. God gives us a next step. He says we need to pray. But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult. And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation. Each week you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans,

[00:43:50] along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others. We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand. Will you commit to Pray for America? Go to pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe. Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:44:19] Click on the Pray for America banner. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America. Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.