Point of View October 29, 2024 – Hour 1 : Jack Phillips Court Case

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, and now, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:43] We are first of all going to focus on what is happening in the campaign.

[00:00:47] Obviously, that will be a focus of much of our time and attention today.

[00:00:51] But that at the bottom of the hour, we're going to be talking as well with a good friend of ours,

[00:00:56] and that is Mike Ferris, who is an individual that was head of, until recently, the Alliance Defending Freedom,

[00:01:02] and talking about Jack Phillips.

[00:01:05] You might remember that court case having to do with an individual who was asked to bake a cake for a same-sex situation

[00:01:12] ceremony, and as a result, this has been a 12-year battle.

[00:01:17] We wanted to give you an update on that.

[00:01:19] And also, during this campaign season, remind you that the battle for religious liberty is on the ballot,

[00:01:25] and so we'll talk about that with him.

[00:01:28] Then, next hour, we'll be talking with Daniel Geraci, who is the founder and CEO of United in Crisis,

[00:01:35] and as he has been talking about the very important principles of reaching out.

[00:01:40] You know, over these last few days, we've been traveling around and doing remote radio broadcasts from locations in the

[00:01:47] southeastern part of the United States, and in some respects, we've seen the devastation of Hurricane Helene,

[00:01:53] and especially the devastation of Hurricane Milton.

[00:01:56] And we'll be talking with him about what happens when God's people get together and reach out to the homeless,

[00:02:03] reach out to refugees from Hurricane Katrina, those who were affected by Hurricane Harvey, tornadoes in Oklahoma, and many more.

[00:02:11] So, again, if we're going to apply the principles that are in the parable of the Good Samaritan taught by Jesus,

[00:02:17] we'll be talking about that with him.

[00:02:19] And just before we finish off as well, we'll also be talking about with Dr. Catherine Wheeler,

[00:02:25] who is an individual with the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians,

[00:02:29] about some of the, I guess we put it this way, misinformation about the issue of abortion,

[00:02:35] because many of you in various states will be voting on these amendments,

[00:02:39] which in some respects are going to be affecting you in terms of how you will vote in November,

[00:02:45] or, of course, many of you perhaps have already voted.

[00:02:47] So, let me get to a couple of key issues before we get to, at the bottom of the hour, our interview with our good friend Michael Ferris.

[00:02:54] And that is to simply point out that we are in the midst of the last week.

[00:03:00] I mean, this time next week, we will be voting.

[00:03:02] Many people already have voted.

[00:03:04] And by the evening, we may actually know who the next president of the United States is,

[00:03:08] who will be serving in the United States Senate and Congress and many other very important positions.

[00:03:14] And so, we've posted a couple of articles.

[00:03:16] One, by Molly Ball, America is having a panic attack over the election.

[00:03:22] And it goes into some interesting anecdotes.

[00:03:25] In the interest of time, since we have a number of guests today, I won't go into it,

[00:03:28] but it's something you may want to read.

[00:03:30] Just to remind you of some of the individuals who are actually in need of some kind of therapy,

[00:03:38] maybe some kind of pharmacological help because they are actually having a panic attack

[00:03:44] because this election looks like it is very close.

[00:03:47] One of those reasons, and we haven't posted this, but you can find it,

[00:03:51] about the various reactions to the fact that usually if there's one thing that the Democratic Party can assume,

[00:03:59] and especially the Democratic nominee for the presidency,

[00:04:03] is that you will receive an endorsement from the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.

[00:04:08] Those are sort of a near guarantee for any Democrat running for the presidency and oftentimes for other positions as well.

[00:04:17] And the fact that both of those individual papers have decided not to endorse a candidate has been,

[00:04:24] as one person said, another easy layup that Kamala Harris has missed.

[00:04:29] They've opted not to endorse, and some of the staff members have been very angry about that.

[00:04:35] And, of course, people around the country, I think, are also wondering what has happened there.

[00:04:40] The decision, interestingly enough, is that we have not going to endorse, nor we will do so in the future.

[00:04:47] We'll see how that plans out.

[00:04:48] But that is, again, one of those many things during the election that nobody probably would have expected,

[00:04:55] but here we are, one week away from the election, and no endorsement from two significant papers,

[00:05:02] the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.

[00:05:03] While we're talking about the press, let me just mention another article that we have posted for you to read in its entirety.

[00:05:10] Alicia Finley talks about the press bias, how that is actually helping Donald Trump.

[00:05:16] You might say, what does she mean by that?

[00:05:18] Well, again, she says our Democrats are having a panic attack as Donald Trump pulls ahead in national polls and battleground polls

[00:05:25] a little more than a week ahead, and, of course, found out that this may actually assure that he would be reelected.

[00:05:32] But she says all of this comes despite, or perhaps because of, the various attacks on him and even the partisan press that was,

[00:05:43] at least in the past, willing to try to disguise some of their bias and now are much more bold in some of their statements.

[00:05:50] She gives you a list of some of the headlines from the New York Times about Kamala Harris packed star power as Trump rails over legal troubles

[00:06:01] or a variety of other ones that go into, as election looms, Justice Department tries to steer clear of politics and all of the rest.

[00:06:09] And part of that is due to the fact that when you would think that the press has been very critical of Donald Trump,

[00:06:16] that that would have an impact.

[00:06:17] But according to the latest Gallup survey, the trust in the media has hit a record low, 31%.

[00:06:26] And so, as a result, she reminds us of the fact that there is a problem with credibility.

[00:06:33] And whereas before, people would pay attention to whether or not the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times,

[00:06:40] the paper of record in your community would endorse a particular candidate, now they seem to not necessarily care.

[00:06:47] And she gives a couple of reasons for that.

[00:06:50] First of all, the one-sided fact checks.

[00:06:53] And she's not just talking about, of course, the fact checking that took place during the presidential debates,

[00:06:58] but even some individuals that we've quoted very positively.

[00:07:03] For example, Glenn Kessler, who has done fact checking for years for the Washington Post,

[00:07:08] and I've usually quoted him in a positive way, was ignoring various decisions that came down.

[00:07:14] For example, ignoring that the Environmental Protection Agency had imposed rules requiring automakers to produce more electric vehicles,

[00:07:22] and that because of that, Michigan has lost 9,500 auto and parts manufacturing jobs,

[00:07:28] or USA Today fact checking an Instagram post and a variety of others,

[00:07:34] and actually pointing out that, number one, that one-sided fact checking strikes people as not so fair.

[00:07:40] And then, number two, she points out that when Kamala Harris fumbles or dissembles, the media covers for her.

[00:07:47] And in some respects, the press doesn't even talk about the fact that when President Biden was exceeding his presidential authority,

[00:07:55] the media simply cheered him on.

[00:07:57] And so when there have been people saying, well, that's because of how particularly negative Donald Trump is,

[00:08:04] she then in the rest of the column reminds you of all the things that have been said about George W. Bush and others in the past,

[00:08:12] to say that this is not a new phenomenon, but is something that, again, maybe is an illustration of, as she says,

[00:08:19] it may not necessarily be because the press actually is taking those stands.

[00:08:24] It's because we have a record low in terms of the number of Americans who actually trust the media,

[00:08:31] and the more they attack Donald Trump, actually, the better he seems to do.

[00:08:36] Anyway, we need to take a break, and when we come back, we'll continue looking at the campaign for a little bit,

[00:08:40] and then we'll get to our good friend Mike Ferris with Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:08:45] We'll be back right after these important messages.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:04] The acronym DEI is found in business and the academy.

[00:09:08] It's now being used in medical schools.

[00:09:10] DEI stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion.

[00:09:13] A new report of top medical schools documents that DEI has been used to weed out applicants

[00:09:18] who aren't firmly within the latest woke metric.

[00:09:21] The nonprofit Do No Harm conducted an analysis of medical school application processes

[00:09:26] and concluded that these schools were raising an additional entry barrier on top of the grade requirements and testing.

[00:09:32] The report argues that these medical schools are asking these questions to turn ideological support

[00:09:38] for health equity and social justice initiatives into a credential that increases an applicant's chance of acceptance.

[00:09:45] As you might expect, the questions on the applications ranged widely.

[00:09:48] One application asked prospective students how you have committed yourself to understanding and aiding in the pursuit of equity and inclusion

[00:09:55] in your academic, professional, or personal life.

[00:09:58] Another was more direct.

[00:10:00] The school asked applicants to share their thoughts on opposing systemic racism, anti-LGBTQ discrimination, and misogyny.

[00:10:07] The application then asked, how will you contribute?

[00:10:10] You know, this latest medical school trend parallels what has been happening on university campuses for years.

[00:10:15] Heather McDonnell documents how these woke ideas have spread from the university to the workplace in her book, The Diversity Delusion.

[00:10:22] And medical schools certainly have the right to ask questions of prospective students that help faculty determine whether they will make good doctors.

[00:10:29] But you could simply ask an open-ended question like, why do you want to become a physician?

[00:10:33] But these applications are using DEI to weed out certain applicants.

[00:10:38] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view on big data, go to viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:53] That's viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] All right, once again, broadcasting today from WAGP here in Beaufort, South Carolina.

[00:11:09] And again, we look forward to being back in the studio tomorrow.

[00:11:12] So again, as you are listening to Point of View, we are certainly enjoying meeting so many individuals.

[00:11:18] Oftentimes we have a breakfast or a lunch or a dinner with individuals to get a chance to talk to some people.

[00:11:22] And also, of course, as we'll be talking about in the next hour with Daniel Jorossi, some of the devastation from hurricanes.

[00:11:29] And he is well aware of that because he has provided, I think, some incredible stories of how if you can put together a network of Christians and churches, you can really make a difference.

[00:11:39] I do appreciate all of our friends that work in emergency management.

[00:11:44] But it is, I think, a testimony once again that when God's people get together and they actually begin to be the hands and feet of Jesus, they can make such a difference in ways that obviously the federal government can't really address the psychological and especially spiritual needs.

[00:12:03] They can do such a great job.

[00:12:05] So I think you'll be excited about that next hour when we talk about that.

[00:12:08] But if you listen to my commentary, my commentary yesterday was on DEI.

[00:12:13] I think it just actually played again over the network.

[00:12:15] And, of course, my commentary today is about the issue of the price of tomorrow.

[00:12:19] But when we talk about DEI, which stands for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, there have been some people noticing that that whole idea of DEI is beginning to fade away.

[00:12:32] And that actually is happening with the campaign of Kamala Harris.

[00:12:37] Very good piece by Rich Lowry in which he says the Harris campaign is testimony to the toxicity of woke politics.

[00:12:45] He begins by saying, defund the police?

[00:12:47] Absolutely not.

[00:12:48] Abolish ICE?

[00:12:50] No way.

[00:12:50] DEI?

[00:12:51] Never heard of it.

[00:12:52] Well, of course, those are the kind of comments you're hearing now, not only from Kamala Harris, who's running for the presidency,

[00:12:58] but from a number of United States senators, there are 34 U.S. Senate races, and also from certain members of Congress, 435 races for the House of Representatives,

[00:13:09] because the woke politics that have really found a home oftentimes in the Democratic Party, and sometimes in the Republican Party,

[00:13:18] but especially in the Democratic Party, have been ones that are not necessarily the kind of ideas and slogans that actually are going to help you win an election.

[00:13:29] And so his argument is that we seem to have passed a peak of woke politics in the U.S., and the best indication of that is the campaign of Kamala Harris.

[00:13:41] I could add to it some of the ones we mentioned yesterday, some of these Senate races where you've had some of these U.S. senators

[00:13:47] actually voting against a piece of legislation that would prohibit men from actually being part of a women's sports team

[00:13:58] or even going into the various locker rooms and things of that nature.

[00:14:03] And so in some respects, you are starting to see those things which were fashionable a few years ago.

[00:14:10] ESG is a good example, environmental, social, and governance.

[00:14:14] Remember, just maybe about five years ago when I first was speaking and somebody from the audience asked about that,

[00:14:21] I could see a lot of puzzled looks from various people in the audience.

[00:14:25] I explained what it was and explained how various groups like BlackRock and others were promoting it.

[00:14:33] Voting it so much now actually seemed to have turned their back on it.

[00:14:37] And then, of course, when we talk about DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion,

[00:14:42] there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that many politicians, including Kamala Harris, are turning their back on it as well.

[00:14:49] And so Rich Lowry, I'll come back to his piece, says she doesn't have any rote line asserting that she's not woke,

[00:14:56] but achieving the distance from what was kind of a fashionable left-wing politics actually has been something that she's tried to do.

[00:15:05] And so he points out that except for maybe her abortion stands, which I think still look very radical and left-wing,

[00:15:12] she's turned her back on one she used to profess to believe or had sympathy for.

[00:15:19] So again, he gives us the list.

[00:15:21] Defund the police? Absolutely not.

[00:15:23] Abolish ICE? No way.

[00:15:24] DEI? Never heard of it.

[00:15:26] Medicare for all? Well, that was a long time ago.

[00:15:28] The Green New Deal? Well, let's not get carried away.

[00:15:30] So she's backed off many of her extravagant positions on many of those topics.

[00:15:36] But again, if you watch some of the advertisements, some of the commercials, some of the various attack comments and things of that nature,

[00:15:46] they still have to do with things like the trans issue, the border, and a number of others.

[00:15:52] And when she says she wants to turn the page, sometimes people are a little bit wary about, well, what are we turning the page on?

[00:15:59] Are you actually truly leaving those ideas behind, or are you simply saying that in order to actually be elected?

[00:16:08] And so, for example, there's no hint of hostility to law enforcement, which was the case,

[00:16:14] even as we began to hear promotion of Black Lives Matter and certainly trying to defund the police.

[00:16:21] Instead, you hear Kamala Harris talking about the fact that she has a Glock, which is a firearm if you're not familiar with that,

[00:16:28] and she was a tough-as-nails prosecutor and those kinds of things.

[00:16:32] So it is interesting to see how that has changed.

[00:16:35] So, again, I just thought I would point to this piece by Rich Lowry,

[00:16:39] because his argument is that the campaign itself and the campaigns of some other U.S. senators

[00:16:45] and some other members of the House of Representatives show that actually woke politics has become rather toxic.

[00:16:53] But at the same time, he's willing to say,

[00:16:55] by no means does this suggest that woke priorities are on their way out.

[00:16:59] He says they're still dominant in the academy and in universities and in other elite institutions.

[00:17:06] And, frankly, he says if she wins, she will still pursue those.

[00:17:09] So don't necessarily be caught off guard.

[00:17:12] But I thought it was interesting that even as we are talking about DEI and the concerns that people have had about that,

[00:17:19] and you can go back to my commentary yesterday, or even if you would be interested,

[00:17:24] we make available a couple of booklets.

[00:17:27] But I have one on wokeness that goes into more detail what ESG is, what DEI is,

[00:17:34] some of the ways in which you can see the problems and even argue against it.

[00:17:38] And those booklets are available.

[00:17:40] It's one of the things we make available to those of you that donate to this ministry at $1 a day or $30 a month.

[00:17:47] You're part of our truth team.

[00:17:48] We send those out on a monthly basis, and we have a new one coming out on censorship,

[00:17:52] which I think you should be looking for in your local mailbox if you are already a donor.

[00:17:57] But even if you're not a donor and you would like to get one of those free booklets,

[00:18:01] simply contact us at Point of View.

[00:18:03] We'll be glad to educate you on that issue as well.

[00:18:06] So just before we take a break, since we'll be spending a lot of time with other guests,

[00:18:10] I do want to point you one more time to our Election Central.

[00:18:14] You can go to the website, pointofview.net.

[00:18:17] Go down to the right-hand column.

[00:18:19] You'll see Election Central, and there is a lot of information.

[00:18:23] We have election resources.

[00:18:24] We have fact-checking.

[00:18:25] We have voter guides.

[00:18:26] We have my booklet, free of charge if you'd like to get it,

[00:18:29] the importance of voting, some viewpoints, commentaries.

[00:18:32] Of course, we have video that you can watch on your duty to vote,

[00:18:37] one on the Democratic Party platform, the whole printout there.

[00:18:41] We also have a printout of the Republican Party platform.

[00:18:44] And again, I know that you're educated if you're listening to Point of View,

[00:18:47] but you know people that aren't, and those resources would be available to you as well.

[00:18:52] Yesterday, we made available a very good piece by Kelly Shackelford,

[00:18:56] which was a survey of people that aren't likely to vote.

[00:19:00] You might want to go back to yesterday's program,

[00:19:02] because we now have the full printout available there,

[00:19:05] showing that again, of people who were probably not motivated to vote,

[00:19:10] said that 17% of them said they would be more likely to vote

[00:19:14] if churches taught that voting is a biblical responsibility.

[00:19:17] 14% said they would be more likely to vote if family or friends were convincing them

[00:19:23] about the importance of voting.

[00:19:25] And of course, we posted this very good piece that came out in the past,

[00:19:29] which showed that 80% of Protestant churchgoers said they really want their pastures

[00:19:34] to address these hot topics and these important issues.

[00:19:37] So all of that is available at our website at pointofview.net.

[00:19:41] You can find the article by Kelly Shackelford that we posted yesterday.

[00:19:45] You can find the Election Central.

[00:19:47] And as you scroll down, let me just also mention that we have the Point of View Highlights on Spotify.

[00:19:53] And I've had a couple of people that I've had a chance to meet,

[00:19:56] both in Augusta, Georgia and Buford, South Carolina,

[00:19:59] that have said that this has been very helpful to them to pass on to their children or grandchildren.

[00:20:05] They may not be willing to listen to a two-hour radio program.

[00:20:09] They may not even necessarily listen to radio,

[00:20:12] but they still probably listen to podcasts.

[00:20:16] And so we have a place where you can actually see the highlights on Spotify.

[00:20:22] And that is something that Megan puts together so that maybe they wouldn't have a chance

[00:20:26] or even be interested in listening to a long interview.

[00:20:29] They can see one that maybe is about 10 minutes or less.

[00:20:33] And I think that that is just another way to reach out to people in your community.

[00:20:38] Of course, you can also listen to this program on podcast after the fact.

[00:20:42] But those are resources we want to make available to you.

[00:20:45] Of course, the election resources after next week will probably be less important,

[00:20:50] but all the other resources there are there for you to use.

[00:20:54] And I hope that you'll take advantage of those.

[00:20:56] Of course, as I mentioned, my viewpoint's commentary today is about the idea that really technology should make things deflationary,

[00:21:05] and yet we live in a time of inflation.

[00:21:08] And it illustrates, again, some of the things that have to be changed in our economic system

[00:21:13] because most of the technological products you have are much cheaper years later than they were before.

[00:21:21] So we should be seeing deflation.

[00:21:23] Instead, we're seeing inflation.

[00:21:25] And so we'll take a break.

[00:21:26] Come back and talk with our good friend Michael Ferris right after this.

[00:21:30] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle,

[00:21:36] not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:21:40] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism,

[00:21:44] and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon.

[00:21:48] London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:21:54] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:22:00] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers.

[00:22:04] Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:22:08] It is truth for all of life.

[00:22:10] Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today?

[00:22:16] Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox

[00:22:21] when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:22:27] Every weekday in less than two minutes,

[00:22:30] you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:22:35] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now.

[00:22:40] Pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:22:48] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] We now have the opportunity to talk with Michael Ferris,

[00:23:17] but first of all, let me just give you some background,

[00:23:18] because I think if you've been listening to Point of View

[00:23:21] or really been in the media at all and watching some of the stories,

[00:23:25] you know that for nearly 12 years, the owner of Masterpiece Cake Shop, Jack Phillips,

[00:23:31] has been sued and hounded.

[00:23:33] It began when you had an activist attorney wanted Jack to create a custom cake,

[00:23:38] pink on the inside, blue on the outside, similar gender transition.

[00:23:42] Of course, even before that, you had one that had to do with wanting to actually commemorate

[00:23:48] a same-sex ceremony and the rest.

[00:23:51] And so nearly 12 years and three court cases later,

[00:23:55] we still have the issue of what Jack Phillips is dealing with.

[00:24:00] So we have some great information there which links you to Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:24:05] And to help us understand that, we come to our good friend Michael Ferris,

[00:24:08] who is a litigator, educator, public advocate, founding president of both the Homeschool Legal Defense Association

[00:24:15] and Patrick Henry College served as well as president and CEO of Alliance Defending Freedom from 2017 to 2022.

[00:24:23] Still in semi-retirement, serves as a general counsel to national religious broadcasters

[00:24:29] and consults with the Convention of States.

[00:24:31] And Michael Ferris, always great to have you on the program.

[00:24:35] Kirby, it is wonderful to be with you,

[00:24:37] and Point of View has been such an important part of my life.

[00:24:40] Well, let's, if we can, tell the story of Jack Phillips.

[00:24:43] And before we're done, we might even talk a little bit about the old homeschool legal defense cases.

[00:24:48] But Jack Phillips is just a very nice individual,

[00:24:52] the kind of person that you would want to go into his masterpiece cake shop,

[00:24:57] and yet he's been hounded all these years.

[00:25:00] And so give us some of the background,

[00:25:01] because when people say, what happened to Jack Phillips?

[00:25:05] I say, well, the case is still going on.

[00:25:07] And so help us understand where we are at this stage.

[00:25:11] Sure.

[00:25:13] Jack's case started, like you say, 12 years ago,

[00:25:17] when a same-sex couple approached him to make a wedding cake,

[00:25:25] a custom-designed wedding cake for their wedding.

[00:25:30] And Jack is really an artist.

[00:25:32] He, you know, paintings are on cake.

[00:25:36] It's just amazing what he does.

[00:25:38] And Jack is willing to serve everybody.

[00:25:42] He's made all kinds of things for LGBT persons, and, you know,

[00:25:48] he doesn't mind serving people.

[00:25:50] It's just not all messages.

[00:25:52] And it wasn't just LGBT messages he didn't want.

[00:25:55] He doesn't do Halloween messages.

[00:25:57] He didn't do some things that were actually anti-LGBT at one time.

[00:26:02] But nonetheless, he told this original couple that he wouldn't do the cake for them.

[00:26:11] And that case worked its way all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States.

[00:26:15] On the day that the Supreme Court announced that it was going to take the case,

[00:26:22] a second case began that day.

[00:26:25] And that was when this transgender lawyer called up and wanted to order a pink on the outside,

[00:26:35] blue on the inside cake to celebrate his gender transition.

[00:26:40] And so Jack, wife, initially answered the phone, but Jack confirmed it as well, that, no,

[00:26:47] this is a message we don't want to deliver.

[00:26:50] You know, they would sell this person and other things, but we're not going to deliver this message.

[00:26:55] And so that person complained to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission,

[00:27:00] but the Civil Rights Commission held it while the U.S. Supreme Court was dealing with the initial case.

[00:27:06] Jack won the initial case.

[00:27:08] My former colleague and now the present CEO of Alliance Defendant Freedom, Kristen Wagner,

[00:27:16] argued the case in the Supreme Court for Jack.

[00:27:19] And Jack was victorious, 7 to 2, in the Supreme Court,

[00:27:24] on the basis that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission engaged in religious discrimination,

[00:27:30] pretty blatant discrimination in the way that they processed the case,

[00:27:34] including not punishing a different cake designer who refused to make a cake for an opposite kind of message,

[00:27:44] said a good friend of mine from the years past.

[00:27:49] It didn't have anything to do with him doing it.

[00:27:51] But knowing this other guy, he went to the other cake shop and asked them for another cake.

[00:27:57] And the Supreme Court said the Civil Rights Commission punished one for not doing a pro-LGBT message,

[00:28:05] but didn't punish the person for refusing an anti-LGBT message on similar grounds.

[00:28:11] And so that discriminatory practice got them in trouble.

[00:28:15] So when the Supreme Court, that case one was over, the Colorado Civil Rights Commission,

[00:28:22] rather than, you know, seeing their way clear to do the right thing, doubled down and found Jack to be in violation of their policies once again for this pink and blue cake.

[00:28:37] And again, put on the record the very same kind of anti-religious bias that got them in trouble in the first place.

[00:28:44] And ADF's lawyers confronted the Attorney General of Colorado with this, and eventually they backed down and said,

[00:28:52] okay, we're not going to go forward with that.

[00:28:53] Well, the transgender lawyer wasn't happy with that, so he sued them.

[00:28:58] This is round three.

[00:28:59] Sued them, Jack, in state court.

[00:29:03] And that case has worked its way up to the Supreme Court of Colorado.

[00:29:07] And just a few weeks ago, the Supreme Court of Colorado made its decision in the case dismissing the case against Jack on procedural grounds,

[00:29:17] saying that basically the transgender lawyer didn't bring the case in the right form at the right time

[00:29:22] and some other procedural irregularities and kicked the case out.

[00:29:26] And for now, it's over for Jack.

[00:29:29] And Jack, you know, has won.

[00:29:32] Now, it's unlikely in the absolute extreme that the Supreme Court of the United States would take up the case

[00:29:40] from the Colorado lawyers' procedural failures.

[00:29:45] That's not the kind of case they take.

[00:29:47] So, you know, while he technically has a few days yet to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court,

[00:29:53] it's a few days that are not worth talking about because it's not really effectively appealable.

[00:29:59] You can appeal anything, but you're going to lose.

[00:30:00] So I don't think it will happen.

[00:30:02] So for now, Jack's done, and we'll just have to wait and see if somebody else is going to come after him.

[00:30:08] Yep.

[00:30:08] And I thought it might be worth – I don't want to get into the deep weeds too much,

[00:30:12] but you've had a case that you won called 303 Creative,

[00:30:17] which also is a landmark case out of the Supreme Court,

[00:30:21] which makes it even harder to sue Jack Phillips or other individuals

[00:30:25] because it upheld the idea of free speech for creative professionals.

[00:30:29] In that case, an individual doing web designs.

[00:30:33] But I think it would also apply, wouldn't it, to Jack Phillips?

[00:30:37] Absolutely.

[00:30:38] In fact, that was an argument that we raised before the Colorado Supreme Court.

[00:30:42] Now, just to clarify roles here, I was the CEO of Alliance Defending Freedom

[00:30:48] when the 303 Creative case was decided by the Supreme Court.

[00:30:53] Again, that one was also argued by Kristen Wagoner.

[00:30:56] And Kristen, again, is now – she was my successor in the job.

[00:31:01] She did a great job in the Supreme Court on that.

[00:31:04] And so, yeah, the Supreme Court ruled when there's a conflict between free speech

[00:31:12] and a state LGBT law, the First Amendment trumps the state law.

[00:31:18] Now, that's not surprising, frankly, because the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution

[00:31:23] says when there's a conflict between state laws and state constitutions

[00:31:27] and the U.S. Constitution, guess what?

[00:31:29] The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

[00:31:32] So that was – you know, the LGBT community didn't like that outcome,

[00:31:37] but that was an outcome that was decided in 1787 when we wrote Article VI of the Constitution.

[00:31:44] And it was, you know, a great victory.

[00:31:47] And it applies in the First Amendment context.

[00:31:50] It doesn't apply in context, say, for example,

[00:31:55] a person doesn't want to rent their basement apartment to an LGBT couple.

[00:32:00] That's not a free speech case.

[00:32:02] That would be a freedom of association, perhaps, and it could be a religious freedom case.

[00:32:07] But those are different kinds of cases.

[00:32:09] And so when there's a legitimate free speech grounds, the 303 Creative case settled it.

[00:32:16] The Colorado Supreme Court didn't want to face up to that.

[00:32:19] And didn't really want to rule for Jack on that basis.

[00:32:23] And so they found this procedural irregularity and was able to get rid of the case

[00:32:29] without having to deal with the constitutional issues.

[00:32:32] That happens from time to time.

[00:32:33] But a win's still a win, and Jack has been victorious for now.

[00:32:39] Let's take a break, and I'm going to come back and then talk about the other implications of that.

[00:32:43] Because, first of all, we're in an election season,

[00:32:45] and religious liberty, I think, is on the ballot.

[00:32:48] Free speech is on the ballot.

[00:32:50] But also, for many years, we've wondered whether or not it would be possible to be a Christian

[00:32:55] and go into certain professions, because you've seen Christians who maybe photographers

[00:33:00] didn't want to photograph a same-sex ceremony,

[00:33:02] bakers or individuals that were doing web pages and a variety of others.

[00:33:07] But we've had a number of cases coming in the right direction.

[00:33:11] When we come back, I want to continue my conversation with Michael Ferris.

[00:33:14] If you'd like to know a little bit more, we actually have a link to tell you about this.

[00:33:19] And there's a place in which you can actually read the press release.

[00:33:23] Actually, even if you would like to support Alliance Defending Freedom

[00:33:27] and also learn about some of the other cases, we have all of that available.

[00:33:31] You, of course, go to adflegal.org, but we also have that link on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:33:39] Let's take a break.

[00:33:40] We'll continue our conversation with Mike Ferris right after this.

[00:33:56] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] Good to stand with us for a few more minutes.

[00:34:04] Michael Ferris, again, an individual that is the founding president of both the Homeschool Legal Defense Association,

[00:34:09] Patrick Henry College, and served as the president and CEO of Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:34:13] for a number of years.

[00:34:15] And, Mike, you know, one of the things that I do from time to time is speak on the issue of LGBTQ,

[00:34:20] especially in some of the schools.

[00:34:21] And I have a slide that I created years ago in which I raised the question,

[00:34:25] is it even possible to be an Orthodox Christian and then go into these professions?

[00:34:31] Photography, because I gave an example of a photographer who was sued

[00:34:34] because she would not take pictures of a same-sex situation.

[00:34:39] Baking, of course, we talk about Jack Phillips and Aaron and Melissa Klein.

[00:34:43] We talk about could you even be a counselor if you don't agree with some of the LGBTQ ideas?

[00:34:48] Could you even rent out your home or your barn or your facility if, indeed,

[00:34:56] somebody wanted to make that available to same-sex celebration and on and on and on.

[00:35:02] And we give this long, long list.

[00:35:03] But the good news is, since I created that slide years ago,

[00:35:07] these decisions coming down are making it much more possible for a Christian who holds to a biblical view about marriage and sexuality

[00:35:17] to go into those professions and be defended by some of these court cases.

[00:35:22] Is that fair?

[00:35:24] It's fair.

[00:35:25] We've made good progress.

[00:35:26] The battle is far from over.

[00:35:28] And not all those scenarios have been clarified.

[00:35:32] All of them involving freedom of speech have been clarified.

[00:35:36] The 303 creative case settles that pretty well.

[00:35:39] Now, it doesn't mean lower courts all get in line and there won't be people filing lawsuits.

[00:35:45] But those things should be readily decided in a favorable direction if there's a serious free speech component to it.

[00:35:53] But then your other point is where I wanted to go next because it's not done.

[00:35:57] And we're in the midst of an election.

[00:35:59] And who the next president is will determine actually not only Supreme Court justices.

[00:36:06] I think Donald Trump actually was able to appoint 235 individuals to the federal judiciary.

[00:36:12] And so in some respects, isn't it fair also to say that this issue of religious liberty as well as free speech is really on the ballot this year, isn't it?

[00:36:24] Indeed.

[00:36:25] It is for sure.

[00:36:26] And the Democrats have become more and more open about their antagonism toward the traditional forms of free speech.

[00:36:37] For example, I argued a case in the Supreme Court of the United States myself in 2018 when I was at ADF.

[00:36:46] And it was about pro-life pregnancy centers in California.

[00:36:50] And they were being forced by the state of California to basically tell every woman who came into their facility,

[00:36:57] hey, if you want to get a free abortion, the state of California will pay for it.

[00:37:00] And here's an 800 number to call.

[00:37:01] That was the message they were supposed to deliver.

[00:37:03] Now, California was doing that because they knew the pro-life centers would never do it,

[00:37:09] and it was a pretense to shut them down.

[00:37:11] But nonetheless, it was decided on a straight-up free speech basis.

[00:37:15] And we won by five to four.

[00:37:18] And all the Democrat-appointed justices said that, you know, we're the four.

[00:37:25] And the Republican-appointed justices said, no, free speech is free speech for everybody.

[00:37:29] And there was a professor at Georgetown Law School named Michael Lewis Seidman who wrote an article in the Washington Post a couple of weeks later

[00:37:40] talking about my case and a similar case involving free speech in a union context.

[00:37:46] And he said he traditionally believed in free speech for everybody,

[00:37:49] but he realizes now that free speech is being used to advance conservative agendas,

[00:37:54] and it's not helpful to the progressive cause.

[00:37:56] So he's abandoned that.

[00:37:57] I mean, and he's not unusual.

[00:38:00] There are people who say, no, free speech is not for everybody.

[00:38:05] There are four justices on the Supreme Court.

[00:38:07] In the case, I argued, basically said free speech isn't applicable for pro-lifers who have pregnancy centers.

[00:38:15] And so that's the kind of issue that's going to come down, and it shouldn't be partisan.

[00:38:22] You know, that should be a – my case should have been a 9-to-0 case.

[00:38:26] It wasn't.

[00:38:27] And there's a reality that we face.

[00:38:30] So, you know, who you vote for for President and Senate and the House and for state races matters up and down the line

[00:38:40] for a variety of applications of these principles.

[00:38:44] But it's especially important for the presidency and the U.S. Senate because of their effect on nominating

[00:38:50] and confirming federal judges both at the trial level, the appellate level, and the Supreme Court level.

[00:38:57] And that's one of the reasons we've talked about some of these Senate races.

[00:39:00] Again, it's a national program, but I've focused on a few of those because of that issue.

[00:39:04] And so, again, it's just one more thing to take into account when you talk about whether or not you're going to elect a particular individual

[00:39:12] to the Oval Office or to the United States Senate.

[00:39:15] But just before we run out of time, I did want to mention the fact that as the founding president of the Homeschool Legal Defense Association,

[00:39:23] I know that we have lots of homeschoolers.

[00:39:25] As a matter of fact, their numbers have grown substantially.

[00:39:28] And it does seem to me that because of your work there, homeschooling is more protected than it's ever been before.

[00:39:37] And sometimes I go back to a time when we worked with you and Marlon Maddox and everybody else

[00:39:42] to warn people about what was coming down that would have ended homeschooling.

[00:39:46] But the good news is if you're a homeschooler, you have more legal protection than you've ever had,

[00:39:51] and that's all due in large part to the work that you've done.

[00:39:55] Well, I appreciate those kind words.

[00:39:58] And, yes, I was involved.

[00:40:00] But there's nothing in my life, and especially the homeschool victories, that I won by myself.

[00:40:06] So God has done everything.

[00:40:09] Whatever talents he gave me, whatever opportunities he gave me,

[00:40:12] and the direct intervention of God has been true throughout my life.

[00:40:16] Also, other people have helped.

[00:40:18] But I was there, and, you know, the point of view was the first national radio program that called out this bad bill.

[00:40:25] And we did our program together with Marlon Maddox, and it started an onslaught of calls to Congress.

[00:40:32] And at the time, it set the record.

[00:40:35] There were three million phone calls in eight days.

[00:40:37] And we just blew the other side out of the water.

[00:40:40] The teachers union wanted to do a backdoor trip to ban homeschooling.

[00:40:46] And because of the outcry, our side won 422 to 1 on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives.

[00:40:54] This is when the Democrats were in control of both houses, and Bill Clinton was president.

[00:40:59] And so God delivered.

[00:41:02] And point of view was a part of that.

[00:41:04] I got to come along for the ride, too.

[00:41:05] I was part of it.

[00:41:06] But, you know, it was God and the point of view listeners and other Americans who stood up and spoke up,

[00:41:12] and our freedoms were protected.

[00:41:15] And I'll never forget that as long as I live.

[00:41:17] It was one of the most important events I was ever involved in.

[00:41:20] And point of view lit the match that got the thing going.

[00:41:23] Well, again, we've certainly appreciated our partnership with you for many decades

[00:41:28] and appreciate the work that you've done at the Homeschool Legal Defense Association,

[00:41:32] of course, establishing Patrick Henry College,

[00:41:34] and certainly working with Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:41:37] I know you're still working with, of course, the National Religious Broadcasters and other events.

[00:41:41] So, Michael Ferris, always great to have you on the program anytime.

[00:41:45] And this is at least as good a news as we can give about Jack Phillips.

[00:41:50] But if you'd like to know a little bit more, you can go to adflegal.org,

[00:41:53] or simply go to point of view.

[00:41:55] I'll have a whole section here on justice for Jack,

[00:41:58] where it explains the case, gives you some other things you can learn about in terms of the First Amendment,

[00:42:03] and where you can support ADF.

[00:42:05] And I would encourage you to do so.

[00:42:06] I support ADF.

[00:42:07] I'm not asking you to do something I don't do.

[00:42:09] We've always believed very much in Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:42:12] Of course, you know we have various guests on who are with ADF.

[00:42:16] So, certainly take the time to join with them and to learn more about their organization.

[00:42:21] Michael Ferris, thanks for being with us today.

[00:42:24] Thank you, Kirby.

[00:42:26] We're going to take a break, and when we come back, Daniel Gerasi, United in Crisis.

[00:42:30] You're going to learn some things about how we really can be the hands and feet of Jesus

[00:42:34] and what happens when Christians get together to address some of those issues.

[00:42:38] And before we're done, we also recognize that this whole issue of abortion and these abortion amendments,

[00:42:44] there are a lot of lies.

[00:42:46] We're going to do our best with Catherine Wheeler to try to begin to tamp some of those down

[00:42:51] and educate you about those issues as well.

[00:42:54] If you'd like to know a little bit more about all the things we're talking about,

[00:42:57] simply go to the website, pointofview.net,

[00:43:00] and you can, if you'd like to listen to this again, click on the button that says Listen.

[00:43:04] If you'd like to donate to the ministry, click on that blue button that says Donate Now.

[00:43:08] We'll be back right after this.

[00:43:10] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:43:17] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:43:20] People are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their politics.

[00:43:25] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:43:30] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:43:33] You feel like giving up, but we can't.

[00:43:36] We shouldn't.

[00:43:37] We must not.

[00:43:38] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:43:43] never give in.

[00:43:44] Never give in.

[00:43:45] Never, never, never.

[00:43:47] Never yield to force.

[00:43:49] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:43:53] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:43:55] This is not a time to give in,

[00:43:58] but to step up and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:44:03] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:44:10] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:19] Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151.

[00:44:25] Point of View will continue after this.