Point of View October 28, 2024 – Hour 2 : Who Owns the Land?

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View. And now, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] Second in the hour today we're going to be talking about Israel with a good friend that we've had on this program many times before.

[00:00:26] And there's always the question about who owns the land which is the title of the book.

[00:00:30] And of course it is as current as what has happened even over the weekend where Israel launched three waves of attacks on Iran on this Saturday morning

[00:00:39] in retaliation for the Iranian attack on October 1st.

[00:00:42] Of course we recognize that a year ago, October 7th, just shortly after we had returned with our trip, our Point of View trip to Israel,

[00:00:52] Hamas attacked Israel and of course we have talked about that as well.

[00:00:55] So I wanted you to certainly know that this book which was published back in I think it was 1991, went out of print,

[00:01:02] they've updated it and then updated it again. So this newest edition, we do have information about it on our website.

[00:01:09] In case you can't find it in your local bookstore, but you certainly should look there first.

[00:01:14] And it is written by our good friend, Dr. Charles Dyer, an individual that spent 20 years both as a faculty member and administrator

[00:01:22] at Dallas Theological Seminary another 10 years as provost of Moody Bible Institute

[00:01:28] and then became professor at large for the Bible, for Moody Bible Institute.

[00:01:33] He is the host of the radio program which I commend to you and we've talked about before, the Land and the Book radio program,

[00:01:40] heard in about 350 stations.

[00:01:42] And as an author of many books, as a matter of fact, when we travel to Israel, oftentimes we encourage him to get,

[00:01:49] for example, maybe 30 days in the land of Jesus or maybe the Christian Travels Guide.

[00:01:54] Just last week when I did talk about Islam, I actually quoted and showed a picture of his book, The ISIS Crisis.

[00:02:02] Of course he is known for the rise of Babylon and many other books.

[00:02:06] So Charlie Dyer, it is always great to have you on the program.

[00:02:10] Yeah, Kirby, it's always great being with you. Thank you.

[00:02:13] We are broadcasting today from Augusta, Georgia, because we're traveling around here.

[00:02:18] So I'm glad that we could still connect up with you.

[00:02:20] And I thought let's give the history of this book because the original author, Stanley Ellison,

[00:02:25] of course had that book come out, Dr. Ellison, and that came out in 1991.

[00:02:30] Then of course they updated it again.

[00:02:31] But as you point out in the revised edition, unless you were fortunate enough to have found that

[00:02:37] maybe in a school library or secondhand bookstore, you weren't aware of the fact that this is a very important and helpful book was there.

[00:02:46] So I'm so grateful that a book that went out of print were actually brought back into print by our good friends at Moody Publishers.

[00:02:54] And you have updated it and even put in some material about the attack of Hamas on Israel.

[00:03:00] So you can't get any more up to date than this book, can you?

[00:03:04] You know, that's the incredible part.

[00:03:06] There's so much that's happened when Stanley Ellison wrote the book back in the early 90s.

[00:03:11] That was right when actually the first intifada was beginning and had just started running out of steam.

[00:03:19] And it looked like peace might be on the horizon.

[00:03:22] But ten years later I was asked to revise it because the peace treaty had fallen apart.

[00:03:27] The second intifada had started.

[00:03:29] Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon and then from the Gaza Strip.

[00:03:34] Well, now here we are 20 years later and all those same places, the same actors are back in play.

[00:03:41] And people wonder what in the world is going on.

[00:03:43] It's so complex, so confusing for the average person.

[00:03:46] So what I wanted to do was bring it up to date and then help people understand kind of the big picture.

[00:03:52] Because if they don't have the history, they can just get lost in the weeds when it comes to why things are happening

[00:03:59] and who to believe when each side accuses the other of problems.

[00:04:04] And again, we'll get into the contemporary ones, but I want to give people a history lesson.

[00:04:08] And first of all, you talk about the fact that if you're really honest about this, this is a family feud.

[00:04:15] And in some respects you call it a family feud rekindled.

[00:04:19] And that's a good place to start before we even talk about things like the Balfour Declaration and Zionism

[00:04:25] and some of the peace accords and all that.

[00:04:27] We really need to go back to the Bible.

[00:04:29] And nobody better to talk about that than an individual who is the host of a radio program that talks about the land in the Bible.

[00:04:36] Well, thanks.

[00:04:37] Yeah, in fact, it goes back to the first book of the Bible, the book of Genesis.

[00:04:42] Because God made a promise to Abraham.

[00:04:44] He said, to your offspring, I give this land.

[00:04:47] Well, the problem is Abraham had two sons.

[00:04:49] The first was Ishmael.

[00:04:51] The second was Isaac.

[00:04:54] And so you have to ask, so which one inherits the land?

[00:04:57] Well, as you read through the Bible, it makes it very clear.

[00:05:01] By Genesis 15 and 17, when God is confirming this covenant, he says, I'm going to do something for Ishmael.

[00:05:07] I heard what you said.

[00:05:08] I'm going to bless him.

[00:05:09] But my covenant, I'll establish with Isaac.

[00:05:11] And so when it comes down to the land itself and the blessings that will come to the world through Abraham's descendants,

[00:05:18] they're limited to Abraham's descendants through Isaac.

[00:05:22] Well, of course, Islam would say, no, that's that's the wrong way around.

[00:05:25] It's through Ishmael.

[00:05:27] And Ishmael has the land and and the Jews may have had it for a while, but we've inherited it from them.

[00:05:34] So, you know, at the very beginning, it starts with who did God make the promise to?

[00:05:38] And really, it comes down to which Bible is the correct.

[00:05:42] Is it the Bible that we hold to the the the Bible of Judaism and Christianity?

[00:05:47] Or is it the Koran that has the the correct interpretation?

[00:05:53] So it's also your starting point is going to determine where you end up in this whole conversation.

[00:06:00] I would think so.

[00:06:01] And let's if we can, since we're still on the Torah here, talk about not only Genesis, but Deuteronomy, because there are some predictions.

[00:06:07] And that is, I think any of our listeners probably know that if indeed you obeyed God, there would be blessings that would come.

[00:06:15] And if you disobeyed God, there would be judgment.

[00:06:18] And ultimately, even the idea that is described of the divine expulsion of Israel from the land,

[00:06:27] because there are some that won't acknowledge that Israel was there before.

[00:06:32] But we can look from Scripture and recognize that there was what we later call the diaspora.

[00:06:39] Can you explain that for us?

[00:06:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:41] You know, it is interesting that when you want to talk about God's history with Israel,

[00:06:45] Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 detail God's, you know, God's relationship to them.

[00:06:52] And he said, if you will obey me, I'm going to bless you.

[00:06:54] And he enumerates all the blessings he'll give.

[00:06:56] But if you disobey me, I'll curse you.

[00:06:58] And then there's a list of judgments that God will bring on them.

[00:07:01] And the ultimate one was, I'll expel you from the land.

[00:07:05] And God historically did that on several occasions.

[00:07:09] But what's nice is Deuteronomy 28 is followed by Deuteronomy 30,

[00:07:12] because God makes it clear that that expulsion isn't forever.

[00:07:17] In fact, he says, wherever you've gone and you call this to mind and call on me, I'll restore you to the land.

[00:07:23] And I love it in Daniel chapter nine, it's a prophecy of the 70 weeks.

[00:07:27] But the first half of that prophecy, in fact, the vast majority of that chapter is spent with Daniel praying the prayer that was said in Deuteronomy 30,

[00:07:36] as he confessed the sin and called on God to restore the people.

[00:07:39] So God, in answer to his prayer, told what the future was for the nation of Israel.

[00:07:44] So, yeah, there was expulsion.

[00:07:46] But thankfully, that's not the end of the story as far as Israel is concerned.

[00:07:50] Well, let's take a break.

[00:07:51] When we come back, we'll talk about the Jews in worldwide dispersion.

[00:07:55] Then what about this idea of Islam, the Crusades and those kinds of things,

[00:07:59] which will then bring us up to something that is a little closer to that.

[00:08:03] And that is what we call the Balfour Declaration and the attempt to return the Jews back to a land

[00:08:09] and to establish once again the nation of Israel, 1948.

[00:08:14] And we'll get into some of that because unless you understand that, you don't understand some of the conflict that is taking place.

[00:08:21] Of course, we have a little booklet that I've made available on Islam and another booklet on Israel, as well as another booklet on anti-Semitism.

[00:08:30] So some of that is available free of charge through us at Point of View.

[00:08:34] But I think you're going to find some of the best material in this new book, our newly revised book, Who Owns the Land?

[00:08:42] An in-depth look at the truth behind the Middle East conflict.

[00:08:45] We'll be back right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:04] The acronym DEI is found in business and the academy.

[00:09:08] It's now being used in medical schools.

[00:09:10] DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion.

[00:09:12] A new report of top medical schools documents that DEI has been used to weed out applicants who aren't firmly within the latest woke metric.

[00:09:21] The nonprofit Do No Harm conducted an analysis of medical school application processes

[00:09:26] and concluded that these schools were raising an additional entry barrier on top of the grade requirements and testing.

[00:09:32] The report argues that these medical schools are asking these questions to turn ideological support for health, equity and social justice initiatives

[00:09:40] into a credential that increases an applicant's chance of acceptance.

[00:09:44] As you might expect, the questions on the applications ranged widely.

[00:09:48] One application asked prospective students how you have committed yourself to understanding and aiding in the pursuit of equity and inclusion in your academic, professional or personal life.

[00:09:58] Another was more direct.

[00:10:00] The school asked applicants to share their thoughts on opposing systemic racism, anti-LGBTQ discrimination and misogyny.

[00:10:07] The application then asked, how will you contribute?

[00:10:09] You know, this latest medical school trend parallels what has been happening on university campuses for years.

[00:10:15] Heather McDonald documents how these woke ideas have spread from the university to the workplace in her book, The Diversity Delusion.

[00:10:22] And medical schools certainly have the right to ask questions of prospective students that help faculty determine whether they will make good doctors.

[00:10:29] But you could simply ask an open ended question like, why do you want to become a physician?

[00:10:33] But these applications are using DEI to weed out certain applicants.

[00:10:38] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view on big data, go to viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:53] That's viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:03] Thank you.

[00:11:08] that we could mention, including this latest one, Who Owns the Land?

[00:11:12] I was just thinking, Charlie, the last time you and I saw each other face-to-face was in Israel.

[00:11:17] We were actually over there by where the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Isaiah Scroll is displayed.

[00:11:24] And I look up, and you look up, and we say hi to each other,

[00:11:27] and I point out that everybody in our group has the 30 Days in the Land with Jesus book by Charlie Dyer.

[00:11:33] And I said, here's the guy that actually wrote the book.

[00:11:35] So it was kind of fun to see you there.

[00:11:37] But you have taken so many groups to Israel.

[00:11:40] I'm hoping someday that will open up again,

[00:11:43] because you can't do any better than having a tour led by Charlie Dyer.

[00:11:47] So, again, those are some resources that I wanted you to know about.

[00:11:50] We have a link to his website, which will also let you know more about his program,

[00:11:56] The Land and the Book, so you can listen to it on podcast.

[00:11:59] Of course, if you already listen on the Moody radio stations, you hear that.

[00:12:03] But let's, if we can, Charles, get into the issue of the Jews dispersed,

[00:12:08] because that is important.

[00:12:10] And you have a couple of chapters that deal with the dispersion after, of course, the fall of Jerusalem,

[00:12:17] and then the issue of the Muslim involvement as well as the Crusades.

[00:12:24] And if we can summarize that somewhat quickly, then we'll get into sort of the modern era of the desire for the Jews to come back to the land.

[00:12:32] But what do we need to know about that?

[00:12:35] Well, I'd start with A.D. 70.

[00:12:38] When the city of Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed, it fell to the Romans.

[00:12:44] And we usually think of that as the beginning of the dispersion, the modern dispersion anyway, and it was.

[00:12:49] But 100 years later, Hadrian, there was a second Jewish revolt,

[00:12:53] and he came in and tried to wipe out the Jewish presence completely in the Holy Land.

[00:12:58] In fact, he changed the name of it.

[00:12:59] It was no longer going to be Judea.

[00:13:01] It would now be Palestine, a Philistine land.

[00:13:03] And that's where the name Palestine actually came from,

[00:13:06] was the Roman Emperor Hadrian trying to expunge any Jewish connection to the land.

[00:13:12] And you jump ahead to Islam, and you're into the 7th century.

[00:13:15] But Islam came in from the Arabian Peninsula and literally swept through not only the Holy Land,

[00:13:21] but swept through the Mediterranean Basin all the way up to Spain.

[00:13:26] And they took the land.

[00:13:29] Now, it's interesting.

[00:13:30] We tend to think, okay, the Muslims had it, but it was actually several Muslim groups

[00:13:34] because the Arabs were there initially, but then you had groups from Iraq, from Damascus, from Egypt, from Turkey,

[00:13:41] who gained control of the empire.

[00:13:44] Finally, the Turks are the ones we think of most recently, and for about 500 years they had control of that region.

[00:13:50] It was the events in the 11th, 12th centuries when just the terrible time that the Christians were experiencing in the Holy Land

[00:13:59] that led to the Crusades.

[00:14:01] And we tend to, again, we know about them, we don't know much about them,

[00:14:05] but sadly they're a blot on much of Christian history because the Crusaders not only went over to try and get the infidels out of the Holy Land,

[00:14:16] but they attacked the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[00:14:19] So there was a Western Church against the Eastern, and they attacked the Jews.

[00:14:23] In fact, in many cases they didn't even leave Europe and said, why go to the Holy Land?

[00:14:29] We can kill the Christ killers while we're here.

[00:14:32] And so the Jews suffered terrible persecution at the hands of those who claimed to be followers of Christ during the Crusade era.

[00:14:42] And most people don't even know, even slightly after the Crusades, we know 1492 is when Columbus discovered America.

[00:14:50] That's also, though, the fact that the same time is when Spain expelled the Jews from Spain.

[00:14:57] You can track down through all the people from Spain, from France, Lithuania.

[00:15:06] They were just expelled from one place after another, fleeing, trying to find some place where they could even live.

[00:15:13] And it's a sad commentary.

[00:15:16] In fact, we cover it briefly.

[00:15:18] Unfortunately, there's more we could have written, but we recorded what we did because we wanted people to understand when Jewish people look askance at Christians,

[00:15:30] there's a history behind that.

[00:15:32] They don't trust us, and for good reason, sadly.

[00:15:37] Again, you have a whole section on the pogroms and the protocols of the elders of Zion, some of this which we have in our book on anti-Semitism and the rest.

[00:15:46] But let's then move to a little more of the modern era, and that is there's always been a dream of the Jews returning to the land.

[00:15:54] This is what is known as Zionism.

[00:15:56] And I guess it brings us to kind of a bound of the area of the World War I and the Balfour Declaration of really trying to establish a homeland for the Jewish people.

[00:16:09] So, again, let's talk about that and then how that didn't turn out but eventually was culminated in 1948 after World War II.

[00:16:18] Yeah, it is interesting because a lot of people think that, in fact, today it's being claimed the Jews are colonizers.

[00:16:24] They're just Western colonizers that came in.

[00:16:27] Throughout their history, there's been a Jewish remnant still in the Holy Land, in the Promised Land.

[00:16:34] But from Passover through the Day of Atonement, they would end their services with next year in Jerusalem.

[00:16:40] There's always been that longing to go back to the land promised them by God.

[00:16:44] But it never really took off, at least not in a major way, until World War I.

[00:16:50] And it was interesting that it was a letter was sent to him by James Balfour.

[00:16:57] And the text is very simple.

[00:16:59] It just said, His Majesty's government view with favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

[00:17:06] And we use its best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this.

[00:17:11] That simple statement ultimately became the basis for the League of Nations giving the mandate to Britain following World War I

[00:17:18] as the Ottoman Empire was broken up to try and bring that to reality, to create a national homeland for the Jewish people.

[00:17:26] When I put it into its context, I tell people, if you want to be interested, look at a map of the Middle East.

[00:17:31] And do you ever wonder why there's such straight lines between, say, Jordan and Saudi Arabia?

[00:17:37] Those were created on a map using a ruler by the British and the French carving up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.

[00:17:46] They promised land to Israel, in fact, to the Jewish people.

[00:17:50] Initially, it was going to be what we would say today is Israel and Jordan.

[00:17:54] But then they carved away the part that they gave to the emir that became the king of Jordan and left the remaining part for Israel.

[00:18:05] Then they later carved that back.

[00:18:08] And then at the end of World War II, they were trying to create two states out of what was left.

[00:18:13] Israel was disappointed but reluctantly accepted.

[00:18:16] The Jewish people accepted what was being offered.

[00:18:19] It was the Arab states who rejected it.

[00:18:22] And the war that followed ultimately created the nation of Israel that was larger than what they had been offered by the UN.

[00:18:30] So it's kind of a, even as they're heading toward what they think is their goal, the prize keeps getting shaved down and down and down.

[00:18:40] But the real issue at the end was no Arab country or no Arab group would even accept that much for a Jewish state in the land that they had once controlled.

[00:18:51] And I think one of the points you were pointing out, and again, this has the map,

[00:18:56] so you can kind of see what was happening when you had Israel and then Transjordan becomes that.

[00:19:01] And then you start looking at all the other nations surrounding the nation of Israel.

[00:19:07] And for anybody that has never been there or had never looked on a map,

[00:19:10] we're talking about a country that is about the size of New Jersey,

[00:19:14] surrounded by hundreds of miles and square miles of very hostile countries around them.

[00:19:23] But as you point out, at the end of World War II, there was an attempt to actually provide a homeland for the Jews,

[00:19:30] especially in light of what had happened with the Holocaust.

[00:19:33] You have that in one of your chapters.

[00:19:35] And as a result, they were willing to accept it and the Arabs were not.

[00:19:40] And that, of course, led to the first war,

[00:19:42] because immediately there was a desire on the part of Arabs to,

[00:19:45] well, just completely get rid of the Jewish group once and for all.

[00:19:49] And this is where we have a series of battles that take place in which each particular time,

[00:19:56] the Jewish nation was able to succeed in the midst of oftentimes overwhelming odds.

[00:20:02] Yeah, most people did not expect the state to be born.

[00:20:06] They thought it would be still born in 1948.

[00:20:09] In fact, most countries were refusing to help the Jewish people even at that time.

[00:20:14] And to his credit, it was our president, Harry Truman,

[00:20:16] who was the first to recognize the Jewish state.

[00:20:20] And Israel never forgot that act of loyalty and kindness on his part.

[00:20:25] But, yeah, it was overwhelming odds.

[00:20:27] They should not, from a human perspective, have succeeded.

[00:20:30] But, of course, we know there's someone beyond the human perspective who's taking care of all of this.

[00:20:35] And I think we're seeing God fulfilling his grand design

[00:20:38] through bringing back the Jewish people to the land.

[00:20:41] Well, let's take a break.

[00:20:42] When we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about how we begin to see that,

[00:20:46] because you have, of course, the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War and some of that.

[00:20:51] But then also all the way up to these Intifadas

[00:20:54] and then the battle with Hamas to the southwest of Israel,

[00:20:58] the battle with Hezbollah to the north, and how that all fits together.

[00:21:02] And we'll take on some of those theological issues as well.

[00:21:05] Weren't the promises to Abraham transferred to the church?

[00:21:09] What about that idea?

[00:21:10] And are they really colonizers?

[00:21:13] And is it even possible to think about peace in the Middle East?

[00:21:16] We have a lot more to cover.

[00:21:17] It's all part of this book, Who Owns the Land?

[00:21:20] And if you'd like to join with us, 1-800-351-1212.

[00:21:24] We'll be right back.

[00:21:30] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle,

[00:21:36] not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:21:40] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism,

[00:21:44] and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon.

[00:21:48] London was in many ways the center of the world,

[00:21:50] economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:21:54] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:22:00] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers.

[00:22:04] Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:22:08] It is truth for all of life.

[00:22:11] Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today?

[00:22:15] Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox

[00:22:21] when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:22:27] Every weekday, in less than two minutes,

[00:22:30] you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:22:35] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now.

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[00:22:48] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:58] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] Continuing our conversation today as we talk about the book,

[00:23:16] Who Owns the Land?

[00:23:17] It is published by Moody Press.

[00:23:20] You should be able to find it in your local bookstore,

[00:23:21] but if not, we have a place for you to get it available.

[00:23:25] And that link will take you to, of course,

[00:23:27] a place where you get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:23:30] Really important reading and a very important book that I'm glad that after it went out of print,

[00:23:35] it has not only been put back into print, but updated dramatically.

[00:23:39] And before we talk about some of the modern conflicts,

[00:23:43] let's again just remind our listeners, Charlie, that we have, of course, the War of Independence.

[00:23:47] You then had a Sinai campaign.

[00:23:50] Then probably the two best-known wars,

[00:23:53] the Six-Day War of 1967 and the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

[00:23:59] Four different wars, which in each particular case could have destroyed the nation of Israel,

[00:24:06] yet here it stands today, here in 2024.

[00:24:10] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:12] 1948 was one where everybody assumed the nation would just be stillborn.

[00:24:17] There were so many Arabs facing it.

[00:24:19] The armies were much larger than Israel's tiny little defense force at the time.

[00:24:25] The second, well, the third, actually, the war, in 1967,

[00:24:28] was the next time Israel, everyone was convinced, would be just pushed into the sea.

[00:24:32] It was Egypt and Syria and Jordan together.

[00:24:35] Their armies attacking Israel from the south and from the north and from the east.

[00:24:40] And in six days, Israel managed to defeat them all

[00:24:44] and actually capture far more territory than they had ever had before.

[00:24:49] But, of course, with that came the Palestinian population centers

[00:24:55] and created some of the problems Israel has faced today.

[00:24:58] In 1973, Israel was, I think, still living on high,

[00:25:04] thinking that they had defeated the Arab, probably underestimating the armies around them.

[00:25:08] And Egypt and Syria again launched a surprise attack.

[00:25:12] It took Israel by surprise, though they had the inklings of it.

[00:25:15] They just chose not to believe it.

[00:25:16] And they came very close to losing the country.

[00:25:21] The Syrian army especially was taking the Golan

[00:25:24] and were pushing down to take over the Sea of Galilee.

[00:25:27] Had they done so, it would have cut the water supply for Israel off.

[00:25:30] The Egyptian army was coming up through the Sinai,

[00:25:33] heading toward the south, ultimately toward Tel Aviv.

[00:25:36] Israel at that time, actually, they had nuclear weapons.

[00:25:40] They went on a full nuclear alert.

[00:25:43] And at that point, the U.S. changed its position.

[00:25:45] We began resupplying conventional weapons to them

[00:25:47] to keep them from having to use their weapons of last resort.

[00:25:52] And they managed to turn those armies around

[00:25:54] and ended up crossing the Suez Canal and heading toward Cairo on one side

[00:26:00] and were marching back toward Damascus on the other

[00:26:03] when the major powers of the day, the U.S. and Russia, both stepped in

[00:26:08] and brought an end to that conflict.

[00:26:10] But it certainly was a very crucial time in Israel.

[00:26:15] The amazing parallels, though, that was 50 years ago.

[00:26:18] And the surprise attack took place on the Yom Kippur,

[00:26:22] the Jewish religious holiday.

[00:26:24] Here, 50 years later, there was the latest attack by Hamas

[00:26:28] at the end of the fall festivals on the Jewish religious holiday

[00:26:32] that also took Israel by surprise

[00:26:34] and created great turmoil, great angst within the country.

[00:26:39] Yes.

[00:26:40] And again, one of the things you say is

[00:26:42] after surviving those four attacks, four different wars,

[00:26:46] Israel might be thought to have earned lasting world respect,

[00:26:49] but actually just the opposite.

[00:26:51] We've gone from a time when Israel first began

[00:26:53] and everybody saw that as sort of David against Goliath.

[00:26:57] And now it's almost been reversed,

[00:26:59] especially with the rise of kind of this modern notion of anti-Semitism

[00:27:03] coming from critical theory and things of that nature,

[00:27:07] saying that, well, because they're strong, we should be against Israel.

[00:27:11] And oftentimes you have young people marching in the streets

[00:27:15] supporting Hamas, even after what happened on October 7th,

[00:27:19] supporting the various other Palestinian groups.

[00:27:23] And so in some respects, we're kind of up to date

[00:27:26] where then we've had attempts to try to come up with some peace accords,

[00:27:31] the Camp David Accords, the Oslo Accords, and things of this nature.

[00:27:35] Each president wants to try to bring peace.

[00:27:38] But in most cases, Charlie, it seems to me that if anything,

[00:27:43] we make some concessions, maybe even given land for peace,

[00:27:46] like giving Gaza to what ultimately became Hamas,

[00:27:50] and it just has never worked out.

[00:27:52] And although we all pray for the peace of Jerusalem,

[00:27:55] that doesn't seem like something's going to happen anytime soon.

[00:27:59] Yeah, and part of it, I think, is the Western secular mindset.

[00:28:03] We truly don't understand that at its core it's a religious conflict.

[00:28:07] In fact, Hamas, you know, we think they were given Gaza.

[00:28:12] Israel pulled out of Gaza completely.

[00:28:13] They had the ability to make that into a resort area for European travelers.

[00:28:18] And instead, they invested all of the resources they could have to build tunnels

[00:28:23] and to build the weapons that they unleashed on Israel over the years.

[00:28:29] In fact, the reason, though, Hamas says even within their charter,

[00:28:33] Israel will exist.

[00:28:34] It continues to exist until Islam will obliterate it.

[00:28:36] They say there's no solution for the Palestinian problem except by jihad.

[00:28:41] They quote the Hadith.

[00:28:43] The day of judgment won't come until Muslims fight Jews and kill them,

[00:28:47] which we've just chosen to ignore.

[00:28:49] But that's what they said.

[00:28:50] Hezbollah says essentially the same thing.

[00:28:53] Hamas is Sunni fundamentalists.

[00:28:55] Hezbollah are Shiite fundamentalists sponsored by Iran.

[00:28:59] But they see in Israel the vanguard of the U.S. and our Islamic world,

[00:29:02] and they say it's a hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve.

[00:29:07] So it's a religious conflict at its core.

[00:29:11] And until they're willing to accept the right of the Jewish people to have a land,

[00:29:16] there's really no permanent solution.

[00:29:18] Now, but I've got to end with a good piece of news here.

[00:29:21] There is a final solution.

[00:29:23] We know there's going to be peace,

[00:29:24] but it's not going to really happen until the Prince of Peace shows up.

[00:29:28] Between now and then, there are temporary absences of war,

[00:29:31] but there is a solution on the horizon, and God will bring it at his time.

[00:29:37] One of your chapters is to whom does the land really belong?

[00:29:41] And you talk about, of course, the Palestinian claims to the land,

[00:29:44] the Jewish claims to the land, and do a very good evaluation.

[00:29:48] But just for a moment, let's talk about a theological issue,

[00:29:52] because there are fellow Christians sometimes that say,

[00:29:56] well, I appreciate that you're talking about Genesis 12,

[00:29:59] and we also talked today about Genesis 15.

[00:30:02] We talked about Leviticus and Deuteronomy 28 and all that.

[00:30:05] But those were promises given to Jews,

[00:30:08] but because of their disobedience, the promise, the covenant there, went to the church.

[00:30:15] Now, as far as I can tell, whenever I look in the scriptures,

[00:30:18] and it is a universal and binding and everlasting covenant

[00:30:25] that doesn't mean that it changes later on.

[00:30:28] But can you help us out?

[00:30:29] Because that is certainly, I know, something you've talked about occasionally

[00:30:33] on your radio program, The Land and the Book.

[00:30:35] Can you help us out with that theological issue?

[00:30:38] I think I can.

[00:30:39] And the key to me ends up being Romans 11.

[00:30:42] And I say it this way.

[00:30:43] There's one place in the New Testament

[00:30:45] where the author specifically says,

[00:30:47] let me give you the relationship between Israel and the church.

[00:30:50] And that's what Paul does in Romans 9, 10, and 11.

[00:30:53] And when he comes to 11, he says,

[00:30:55] I don't want you to be ignorant of the mystery.

[00:30:57] Israel's experienced the hardening in part

[00:30:58] until the full number of the Gentiles comes in.

[00:31:00] And then he gives the future.

[00:31:02] And all Israel, he says, will be saved.

[00:31:04] Now, it doesn't mean every single Jewish person,

[00:31:07] but Israel as a nation is going to have a national revival.

[00:31:10] And then he quotes two scriptures to place it within a context.

[00:31:14] The first is Isaiah 59.

[00:31:15] He says,

[00:31:16] The deliverer will come from Zion and turn godlessness away from Jacob.

[00:31:20] It's a picture in Isaiah of the Messiah's return

[00:31:25] and bringing the redemption for Jerusalem.

[00:31:28] And then he says,

[00:31:29] he quotes Jeremiah 31,

[00:31:30] And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

[00:31:34] The new covenant getting applied to Israel,

[00:31:36] which is who it was given to initially in Jeremiah 31.

[00:31:39] And then Paul concludes, he says,

[00:31:41] As far as the gospel is concerned,

[00:31:42] right now they are enemies on your account.

[00:31:45] The Jewish people in his day,

[00:31:47] and many Jews, not all, but many today,

[00:31:50] oppose the idea that Jesus is the Messiah and Savior.

[00:31:53] But then he goes on and says,

[00:31:54] But as far as election is concerned,

[00:31:56] they're loved on account of the patriarchs.

[00:31:58] Well, the patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[00:32:01] And then he says,

[00:32:02] The reason for that is for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

[00:32:06] When God made a promise to Abraham

[00:32:08] and then reaffirmed it to Isaac and Jacob,

[00:32:10] God doesn't go back on his promises.

[00:32:12] And so Paul says there's a future,

[00:32:14] because God's promises to them are irrevocable.

[00:32:17] Which I happen to like, by the way,

[00:32:18] because Islam teaches that God promised us something as a church,

[00:32:22] but then he took it back and gave it to the Muslims.

[00:32:25] Well, I'm hoping to get to heaven,

[00:32:26] and I'm basing it on God's promise to me.

[00:32:29] And that if I put my trust in Christ,

[00:32:32] he will forgive my sins and give me eternal life.

[00:32:34] The God who didn't give up on his promises to Israel

[00:32:37] is the same God who didn't give up on his promises to me.

[00:32:41] And if his gifts and his calling are irrevocable for us,

[00:32:44] they are for Israel as well.

[00:32:46] And that's the point Paul's making there.

[00:32:48] And again, words like everlasting, irrevocable,

[00:32:51] I think we know what those words mean.

[00:32:53] And so if those words mean anything, that is certainly the case.

[00:32:57] I want to come back and talk about the church's responsibility to Israel

[00:33:01] and also whether or not we will see peace.

[00:33:04] I think we've already sort of alluded to the fact that there will only be peace

[00:33:07] when the Prince of Peace comes.

[00:33:09] But again, some of these claims and counterclaims being made,

[00:33:13] I think illustrate again that if anything,

[00:33:15] at a time when we see probably a rising of anti-Semitism.

[00:33:19] Charlie, I'd written a book years ago,

[00:33:21] one of these booklets we make available to our donors on anti-Semitism,

[00:33:25] with sort of the classic arguments that are sort of in the early part of your book.

[00:33:28] But then I began to notice with this idea of critical theory

[00:33:31] and always wanted to support the underdog,

[00:33:34] there's almost a new strain of anti-Semitism.

[00:33:37] So I want to talk about what Christians and the church can do to support Israel.

[00:33:41] We'll talk about that right after this.

[00:33:56] You're listening to Point of View,

[00:33:58] your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] Back for a few more minutes with Dr. Charlie Dyer.

[00:34:04] And again, we're talking about the book Who Owns the Land,

[00:34:07] which really provides an insight and a knowledge of some of the various history

[00:34:13] and even the recent events.

[00:34:15] If sometimes you say,

[00:34:16] okay, I don't understand Islamic Jihad,

[00:34:19] the PLO, the Palestinian Authority,

[00:34:22] Hezbollah,

[00:34:23] what are all these different groups,

[00:34:24] and how did this all come together?

[00:34:26] How did the history come together?

[00:34:27] It really kind of explains the events that led to the current situation in the Middle East.

[00:34:32] About 250 pages published by Moody.

[00:34:34] You should be able to find it in your local bookstore.

[00:34:35] I really do commend it to you.

[00:34:38] If you're trying to make some sense out of this,

[00:34:40] if you know somebody who is just convinced that Israel is at fault

[00:34:43] and they're colonizers,

[00:34:45] maybe they would like to at least take the time to read through the book

[00:34:48] and learn some of the history we're talking about here today.

[00:34:52] But Charles, I thought it would be good for just a minute

[00:34:54] to talk about a section that you have here

[00:34:56] on the church's responsibility to Israel today.

[00:35:00] Now, as I talk to non-Christians,

[00:35:02] I say, even if you don't accept my argument from Genesis 12 and other passages,

[00:35:08] certainly we have a lot of commonality with the Jewish nation

[00:35:13] because it is a democracy in the midst of a world

[00:35:16] where very few have the kind of freedom that is provided there.

[00:35:21] We, of course, also recognize how important that nation is

[00:35:26] and what a blessing it has been through all the patents

[00:35:29] and entrepreneurial activities and the rest.

[00:35:32] But for those of us who are Christians

[00:35:34] and recognize that indeed this is a universal

[00:35:38] and eternal and irrevocable covenant,

[00:35:42] you also talk about the fact that we certainly have some responsibility

[00:35:46] as Christians in the church towards Israel.

[00:35:49] Could you explain that?

[00:35:51] Yeah, I can.

[00:35:52] I think we need to start with a couple basics

[00:35:55] and understand why the Jewish people have had so much problem

[00:36:00] with the church over time.

[00:36:02] We need to support Israel's right to the land.

[00:36:04] In fact, I start this way.

[00:36:05] Who does the land belong to?

[00:36:07] Well, it belongs to God.

[00:36:08] Psalm 24 said,

[00:36:09] The earth is the Lord's and everything in it.

[00:36:11] But God has said in his word

[00:36:13] that he's given it to Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob.

[00:36:17] And we need to support that.

[00:36:18] In fact, Romans 11, as we just talked about,

[00:36:21] says that that covenant is still operative

[00:36:23] because God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

[00:36:26] Now, we also need to clarify the guilt of the cross.

[00:36:29] Sadly, so much of the church and church history has said

[00:36:32] the Jews are Christ killers.

[00:36:34] They're responsible for the death of Christ.

[00:36:37] Actually, if we read the Bible carefully,

[00:36:39] each of us is responsible for his death.

[00:36:42] He was wounded for our transgressions,

[00:36:44] bruised for our iniquities.

[00:36:45] Christ died for our sins.

[00:36:48] Certainly, the Romans played a part.

[00:36:50] The Jewish religious leaders played a part.

[00:36:52] But God, it's not that they overtook Jesus.

[00:36:56] God permitted it to happen because of his larger purpose,

[00:36:59] to die for us.

[00:37:00] And we just need to erase that idea

[00:37:02] that Israel bears some special responsibility for Christ's death.

[00:37:06] Certainly, their turning away from their Messiah

[00:37:10] led to great destruction in Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

[00:37:14] But they're not responsible solely for the death of Christ.

[00:37:19] We also need to be able to answer their arguments.

[00:37:21] They have a problem because they see us worshiping three gods.

[00:37:24] So we need to be able to explain that, indeed,

[00:37:27] the Old Testament can support the idea of a triune God.

[00:37:32] You know, whom shall I send and who will go for us

[00:37:35] is what God said among the triune deity in Isaiah chapter 6.

[00:37:43] But there's ways that we can explain

[00:37:45] how we understand the unity of God

[00:37:47] with still only worshiping one God.

[00:37:50] And we also need to be careful on proselytizing.

[00:37:53] Certainly, as they view proselytizing,

[00:37:55] it was proselytizing by the sword in the early church.

[00:38:00] Martin Luther said things that sound very much like

[00:38:03] Adolf Hitler later on in history.

[00:38:06] And we just need to recognize

[00:38:07] that very unfortunate, sad, and wrong things were said.

[00:38:12] In fact, we have an obligation

[00:38:14] to share the good news of Jesus with his followers.

[00:38:18] But we need to do it in a loving and understanding way.

[00:38:21] Our goal isn't to convert.

[00:38:22] That's God's job.

[00:38:24] Our goal is to share the good news of Christ with them.

[00:38:26] And doing that while also supporting Israel's right

[00:38:30] to be in the land.

[00:38:32] Now, there are a number of people

[00:38:34] that identify themselves as Palestinians

[00:38:36] who are also Christians.

[00:38:37] And so I think sometimes we tend to think

[00:38:40] that all of the individuals

[00:38:41] that are identified as Palestinians are Muslim.

[00:38:44] And there's certainly most there are.

[00:38:46] But I know as you've traveled over there,

[00:38:48] we certainly have an attempt

[00:38:50] to try to reach out to them

[00:38:52] because the gospel is true

[00:38:54] and is available not only to individuals

[00:38:58] who are not Christians,

[00:39:00] all the Muslims that are in those regions of the world,

[00:39:03] but also there are a number of Christians

[00:39:06] that are in some of those

[00:39:07] what are called Palestinian territories, aren't there?

[00:39:11] Oh, absolutely.

[00:39:12] In fact, if we start with God owns the land,

[00:39:16] when God made his promises to Israel,

[00:39:18] he makes it very clear to them

[00:39:20] that they're to treat the,

[00:39:21] it's called in the Bible,

[00:39:23] usually on our translations, the aliens,

[00:39:24] but the non-Israelis in the land

[00:39:27] are to have a right to be in that land.

[00:39:30] And if we start with two principles,

[00:39:32] I think right now,

[00:39:33] one is that the whole history

[00:39:35] in the Middle East right today is tangled.

[00:39:37] You can't unscramble an egg.

[00:39:39] So we need to start with the way things are.

[00:39:42] And then the second is

[00:39:43] that Israel has a right to sovereignty,

[00:39:45] a divine right to the land,

[00:39:47] though others can own property in the land.

[00:39:49] And certainly that was permitted

[00:39:50] in the Old Testament.

[00:39:51] It's permitted in Ezekiel 47

[00:39:53] as God described

[00:39:54] what the future is going to be like.

[00:39:56] There will be non-Jewish individuals there

[00:39:59] who have a right to be in the land,

[00:40:01] and God wants to make sure

[00:40:02] their rights are protected.

[00:40:05] Well, again, let me just mention

[00:40:07] that before I let you go,

[00:40:08] that we also have a link

[00:40:10] not only to this book,

[00:40:11] Who Owns the Land?,

[00:40:12] but also a link to the land and the book.

[00:40:14] So if you are actually listening

[00:40:17] on many of the stations

[00:40:18] that carry that program,

[00:40:20] that is great.

[00:40:21] But if not,

[00:40:22] there's a place where you can listen to this

[00:40:24] and learn a little bit more.

[00:40:25] There's also a way in which

[00:40:26] if people want to ask you

[00:40:27] some other questions

[00:40:28] or go back

[00:40:30] and maybe do some further research,

[00:40:32] that's available.

[00:40:32] But I do think this book

[00:40:34] is one that individuals should read

[00:40:36] if they want to understand more

[00:40:37] about Israel and the Middle East.

[00:40:39] And the way you've put it together

[00:40:41] with the various questions

[00:40:42] and everything,

[00:40:42] I think it could even be

[00:40:43] a small group study,

[00:40:44] which people could do as well.

[00:40:45] So, Charlie,

[00:40:46] I appreciate you taking a book

[00:40:47] that actually was out there

[00:40:49] and really answering

[00:40:51] some of the questions

[00:40:51] and taking the time

[00:40:53] and effort to update it

[00:40:55] and then to convince your friends

[00:40:56] at Moody Publishers

[00:40:57] to publish it.

[00:40:58] So thank you so very much

[00:40:59] for producing the book

[00:41:01] and also thank you

[00:41:02] for joining us today

[00:41:03] here on Point of View.

[00:41:05] Kirby, thank you.

[00:41:06] It's just my privilege

[00:41:07] to be with you

[00:41:08] and I enjoy every time

[00:41:09] I get to talk with you.

[00:41:10] So thank you.

[00:41:10] Well, again,

[00:41:11] let me just mention

[00:41:12] that if you have a chance

[00:41:13] to make a trip to Israel,

[00:41:15] that's not happening right away,

[00:41:17] you can't come up

[00:41:18] with a better guide

[00:41:19] than Charlie Dyer.

[00:41:20] So let's just

[00:41:21] before we wind down today,

[00:41:22] I want to again mention

[00:41:23] that we're broadcasting today

[00:41:25] from Augusta, Georgia.

[00:41:26] I want to thank

[00:41:27] the Good News Network.

[00:41:28] What a great bunch of people

[00:41:29] that we always enjoy

[00:41:30] being in their studio.

[00:41:32] I encourage you

[00:41:33] to support the local radio station

[00:41:35] that carries this program.

[00:41:36] You wouldn't hear

[00:41:36] Point of View without them.

[00:41:37] So for those of you

[00:41:39] in the area of Georgia

[00:41:40] or Alabama, South Carolina,

[00:41:43] North Carolina,

[00:41:44] that hear the Good News Network,

[00:41:45] let me just mention

[00:41:46] you might want to support them.

[00:41:48] But also,

[00:41:48] let me just mention

[00:41:49] that tomorrow

[00:41:50] we're going to be

[00:41:51] in Buford, South Carolina.

[00:41:52] We're going to have

[00:41:53] Mike Ferris with us.

[00:41:54] He has been,

[00:41:55] in the past,

[00:41:56] the head of the

[00:41:57] Alliance Defending Freedom.

[00:41:59] We're going to be talking

[00:42:00] about the Jack Phillips

[00:42:01] court case

[00:42:02] and we'll give you

[00:42:03] an update there.

[00:42:04] Daniel Gerasi

[00:42:05] will be with us.

[00:42:06] We'll talk about

[00:42:07] his book,

[00:42:07] United in Crisis.

[00:42:09] And then we've had

[00:42:10] just a lot of

[00:42:12] misinformation,

[00:42:13] can I even use

[00:42:13] the word lies,

[00:42:15] about the issue

[00:42:16] of abortion,

[00:42:17] especially with some

[00:42:18] of these various

[00:42:19] cases and even

[00:42:20] some of the attempts

[00:42:21] to amend

[00:42:22] state constitutions.

[00:42:24] So Dr. Catherine Wheeler

[00:42:26] will be with us

[00:42:27] of the American Association

[00:42:28] of Pro-Life Obstetricians

[00:42:29] and Gynecologists.

[00:42:30] So there is an opportunity

[00:42:32] for you to hear

[00:42:33] some of that as well.

[00:42:33] But I also want to

[00:42:35] thank everybody

[00:42:35] that made it possible

[00:42:36] today.

[00:42:37] John,

[00:42:37] thank you for

[00:42:38] engineering right here

[00:42:39] in the studio.

[00:42:40] John Weidler,

[00:42:41] as well as we

[00:42:42] certainly want to

[00:42:43] thank back in

[00:42:44] Dallas,

[00:42:45] both the producer

[00:42:46] Megan,

[00:42:47] as well as

[00:42:48] the producer

[00:42:49] Steve.

[00:42:50] And I hope that

[00:42:50] you've enjoyed

[00:42:51] the conversation

[00:42:52] today,

[00:42:52] but if you find

[00:42:53] yourself saying

[00:42:53] I'd like to get

[00:42:54] some more information

[00:42:55] on some of these

[00:42:56] topics,

[00:42:57] you can go to

[00:42:57] the website

[00:42:58] pointofview.net

[00:42:59] and as I mentioned

[00:43:00] we have those

[00:43:00] booklets on

[00:43:01] Israel and

[00:43:02] anti-Semitism.

[00:43:02] They're available.

[00:43:04] We'll see you back

[00:43:04] here tomorrow,

[00:43:05] right here on

[00:43:06] Point of View.

[00:43:11] Who can you

[00:43:14] trust?

[00:43:15] Years ago

[00:43:16] many of us

[00:43:16] could probably

[00:43:17] have provided

[00:43:18] a fairly long

[00:43:19] list,

[00:43:19] but today,

[00:43:21] well today

[00:43:22] it seems we

[00:43:22] almost can't

[00:43:23] trust anyone.

[00:43:25] Educators

[00:43:25] don't even know

[00:43:26] what a woman

[00:43:27] is anymore.

[00:43:28] Many so-called

[00:43:29] public servants

[00:43:30] have shown

[00:43:31] all they care

[00:43:31] about is

[00:43:32] themselves.

[00:43:33] The FBI

[00:43:34] has been

[00:43:35] accused of

[00:43:35] bias,

[00:43:36] law-breaking,

[00:43:37] betrayal,

[00:43:38] and journalism

[00:43:39] is largely

[00:43:40] corrupt with

[00:43:41] no Clark Kent

[00:43:42] standing up for

[00:43:43] truth,

[00:43:43] justice,

[00:43:44] in the American

[00:43:44] way.

[00:43:45] All of this

[00:43:46] is why

[00:43:47] Point of View

[00:43:48] Radio is

[00:43:49] more important

[00:43:50] than ever.

[00:43:51] And your part

[00:43:52] in supporting

[00:43:53] us is more

[00:43:54] needed than ever.

[00:43:55] Do your part

[00:43:56] today in

[00:43:57] supporting

[00:43:57] trustworthy

[00:43:58] truth.

[00:43:59] Stand with

[00:44:00] us and

[00:44:01] help push

[00:44:01] back the

[00:44:02] lies and

[00:44:03] the darkness.

[00:44:04] Visit

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[00:44:06] Don't put it

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[00:44:07] take a moment

[00:44:07] right now

[00:44:08] and click

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[00:44:11] donate now

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[00:44:29] is produced

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