Point of View October 22, 2024 – Hour 1 : The Case For Life

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to spend some time talking about the battle for life and the case for life, because this is a very important issue, the pro-life argument.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And since the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade, there have been many that think, well, that battle is over.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And in many cases, it's just begun. There's a need for us to know how to advocate for life and to speak out against abortion at the state and local level.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there are some very good reasons why I think it would be good to return to a book that has been out for many years called The Case For Life.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is a second edition, and it is written by Scott Klusendorf, forward by Lila Rose.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott Klusendorf, if you're not familiar, is the president of Life Training Institute.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I first became aware of him when he was at Stand to Reason with Greg Kokel, who's been on the program with us many times before.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: He speaks so often on the pro-life issue, speaks at various seminars and things of that nature, Focus on the Family, Truths That Transform, American Family Radio.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is a welcome opportunity for us to spend an hour learning from him in his second edition of the book, The Case For Life.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Scott, welcome to Point of View.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Kirby, a delight to be with you. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when people want you to address the issue, I know you speak at Summit Ministries recently.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we had you here at the Council for Life.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You are so eloquent in speaking on those issues.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And you, of course, give credit to two Greggs in your life.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: One that I just mentioned Greg Kokel, but the other is Greg Cunningham.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But there is a sense in which, as you read through this latest edition,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: there's just a veritable who's who of individuals that so appreciate the work that you do.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Greg Kokel, of course, I mentioned.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Jeff Myers, Andrew Walker, as well as Natasha Crane and John Stonestreet and Randy Alcorn and Paul Copan and J.P. Moreland.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: All individuals and many others that have endorsed your book that have been on Point of View.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into this because in some respects you're helping us to think logically.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: A key word that you use early on is the idea of a syllogism.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Because once you understand kind of the logical steps to making the case for life,

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you can begin to see how most of the other comments are just merely trying to deflect you from the case of the really the case for life.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So talk about this idea of syllogism and what you use so often when you train individuals.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's define that word in case any might not know what it means.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: The syllogism is simply a couple of premises followed by a conclusion that hopefully follows.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And pro-lifers have a syllogism and it's vital that we use it.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, Kirby, I tell people the three most important words in pro-life apologetics are syllogism, syllogism, syllogism.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason is this.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: When the word abortion is brought up, people love to change the subject.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know none of your intelligent listeners, whenever they've been quarreling with their spouses,

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: has ever changed the subject and they've been losing the argument.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But the people we encounter on the street often do.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So what we want to do is clearly state our case, do it formally, so we can always bring them back to the argument we're making,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: rather than chasing bunny trails, you know, that we don't want to get distracted by.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So the pro-life argument is simply this.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Premise one, it's wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Premise two, abortion intentionally kills innocent human beings.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This conclusion, therefore, abortion is wrong.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that syllogism that it's wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings,

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: abortion does that, therefore it's wrong, might be mistaken, Kirby.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not enough for our critics to simply say, oh, well, that's just your religious view.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Look, arguments are either sound or unsound, valid or invalid.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Calling an argument religious is name-calling.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a category error, like saying how tall is the number three?

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to do the hard work of actually refuting that argument and showing where it either doesn't follow,

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning it's invalid, or show where one or more of the premises is untrue, meaning it's unsound.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Outside of that, our argument stands.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's so helpful because a lot of times one of the deflections is, well, you're a man,

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't speak to the issue, you're a Christian, you have a religious bias, whatever.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But either the logic is there or the logic is not.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And before we go any further, in that same chapter you talk about the acronym SLED,

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: which stands for Size, Level Development, Environment, and Degree of Dependence,

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's another issue where individuals sometimes say, well, it all varies based upon the size of the individual,

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the embryo, the fetus, whatever it might be, its development, whatever.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, those are essentially things that you will run into if you're engaged in that discussion.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So help us through that.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we use that SLED acronym to show philosophically that there's no essential difference between Kirby the embryo

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and Kirby the adult that would justify killing you at that earlier stage of development.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The science of embryology establishes that you're a human being from the one-cell stage.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But for some people, that's not enough.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They want to say, well, the embryo is not yet self-aware or not developed enough or it's too dependent.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, notice they just assert these things.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They almost never argue for why those things are value-giving in the first place.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And a typical mistake that pro-lifers make is they bite the bullet there

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and they end up buying the premise of their critic.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They say, oh, well, by week six we can measure an embryo's brain waves

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: or by week 13 that fetus is dreaming in the womb so we know there's brain activity there.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you just bought the premise that brain activity or self-awareness that arises from brain activity

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is what gives us value.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We ought to push back on it, Kirby, and say, why is self-awareness value-giving in the first place?

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And how self-aware do I have to be to not be killed?

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And the SLUD acronym allows us to show that none of these differences really hold up.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So size, there's your SME acronym.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the embryo is smaller, but since when does body size determine value?

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Shaquille O'Neal, the former 7'2 NBA basketball star, is a foot taller than you and I,

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but it doesn't follow he has a greater right to life because body size doesn't determine value.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: L stands for level of development.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You were less developed as an embryo, and our answer ought to be so.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is that value-giving?

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Why does that matter?

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: How developed do I have to be not to be killed?

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A 2-year-old is less developed than a 21-year-old.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, a 2-year-old girl does not even have a developed reproductive system yet.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Is she less human and valuable than the 21-year-old young woman who does?

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's a level of development.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Then there's E, which stands for environment, where you're located.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You were in the womb, now you're out.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But how does where we are determine what we are?

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: When you move from the parking lot into the studio, I'm going to guess, I could be wrong,

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that you took a journey of at least 70 feet.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If a journey of 70 feet didn't change you from one kind of thing to another, how does a journey of seven inches down the birth canal suddenly transform you from non-human,

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: non-valuable thing we can intentionally kill to a valuable human being that we can't?

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And the obvious answer is if you weren't already human and valuable, changing your address doesn't fix anything.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And then finally, the D stands for degree of dependency.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you depended on your mother for survival, but again, we should ask, so why does that matter?

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: How does dependency on another human being mean you can be intentionally killed?

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We've all seen pictures, I suppose, of the two adult women, Brittany and Abigail Henschel.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: They are conjoined twins.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You look at a picture of them, there's one set of legs.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Then from the waist up, they branch off into two body trunks, two shoulders, and two heads.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The press has followed these women since infancy.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They depend on each other's circulatory systems and bodily organs, but we don't think you can split their throats because they depend on each other for survival.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Very good.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take a break and we'll continue our conversation on the case for life right after this.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: What do people in the intelligence community believe are the greatest threats to America?

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I had an opportunity to watch one presentation that listed five threats.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The first is the possibility of an EMP attack in which a nuclear weapon is detonated at high altitude over this country.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The Congressional EMP Commission has stated that it could bring down the entire power grid.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The second threat could have a similar impact.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the concern that sleeper agents from foreign countries in this country get activated and take down this country's power grid or conduct terrorist actions.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: A third concern is the possibility of massive supply chain disruptions which surface because of looters or rioters who target food production facilities and supply chains.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We've seen many suspicious fires at food production plants.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And this overlaps with a fourth concern that the country breaks out into a civil war with certain states deciding to secede and close their borders.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: A fifth concern results from China invading Taiwan.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Some fear that this could trigger World War III if the U.S. decides to respond.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: China has the largest navy in the world and more warships than the U.S.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I listed these in descending order of disruption.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The first two threats would have a devastating impact on the country.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Supply chain disruption could be harsh in some areas, perhaps less in others.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And we might hope that the likelihood of a national civil war or the onset of World War III would be less likely but very devastating if it occurred.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: These threats are a reminder that we need to have serious and capable people in office.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's also a reminder that each of us need to also prepare for scenarios like this we hope and pray never occur.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: For a free booklet on a biblical view of Israel, go to viewpoints.info.com

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: viewpoints.info.com

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Continuing our conversation today with Scott Klusendorf.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He is the author of this book, The Case for Life.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It is the second edition.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of great information about it in the book.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You can perhaps find it in your local bookstore.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It is published by Crossway.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But also we have information about him and about Life Training Institute on our website on pointofview.net.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You can, of course, get a copy of the book there as well.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott, one of the things I like that you do is very similar to, of course, what Greg Kokel does.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is you oftentimes put together sample dialogues.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And in there, there is a dialogue between Pam and Emily.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But you use that to help us understand that oftentimes when we get involved in a discussion,

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: whether you're working at a pregnancy resource center, whether you're talking to a friend or a neighbor,

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe even having a conversation with an abortion-minded person,

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: there are oftentimes hidden assumptions.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And in some respects, again, going back to this idea of logic,

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes they're begging the question.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you explain that?

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's another place where if we're going to have a fruitful and even a life-giving conversation,

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to sometimes understand those assumptions, don't we?

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We do.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Begging the question is where you assume the very thing you're trying to prove.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So imagine I knock on your door, Kirby, and I say, Kirby, when did you start cheating on your taxes?

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And you protest and say, I don't cheat on my taxes.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I say, that's not what I asked you.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know when you started.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And even though you protest, I insist on asking when you start.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, obviously, I would be assuming that you cheat on your taxes, which if I'm with the IRS is the very thing I'm trying to prove.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And people do this with abortion all the time.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: They simply assume the unborn aren't human rather than argue that they're not human.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So you get President Biden saying things like reproductive freedom, by which he means abortion, is good for, quote, everyone, unquote.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, wait a minute, Mr. President, is it good for the unborn to undergo dismemberment and be killed?

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: See, he just assumed they weren't human by saying it was good for everyone.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Would anybody suggest killing a toddler, for example, in the name of choice and who decides,

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: or reproductive freedom, or privacy, or economic hardship, or any of the other reasons people bring up at the street level?

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: All of those objections assume they're not human.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And the way we know that is nobody would make those arguments if the question was killing toddlers.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that you talk about is the fact that you've done some debates,

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and we've actually had this same individual on the program, Nadine Strawson, former president of the ACLU.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, that debate or a couple of debates that you've had with her are actually very civil.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And she has been a very civil individual because we've had her on to talk about free speech and not censoring individuals.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do remember that you talk about one of the debates where the assumption she makes,

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's again something that we see time and time again, is with an appeal to reproductive freedom.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that, again, seems to me very much, and many of these statements being made by even people that we can get along with,

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: still maybe they are not aware that they're making the assumption, they're begging the question,

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: even when they are very gracious in their interaction with some of us.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you're right, Nadine is phenomenal on the issue of free speech.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really appreciate that about her.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it might surprise your listeners that I consider her a friend.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do believe she is mistaken on abortion.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the primary errors she makes is many of her arguments simply assume the unborn aren't human.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So the way I've dealt with this in debate settings with her is after her opening remarks,

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say to the audience, men and women, I agree with everything my friend Nadine just said.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: She's right that there should be no laws against abortion.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: She's right that our tax dollars should pay for it.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: She's right that pro-lifers like me ought to butt out of this issue and leave it to personal choice.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with her completely if.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: If.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: If what?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If the unborn are not human.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And if my friend and colleague Nadine can demonstrate tonight that the unborn aren't human using good evidence,

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I will publicly adopt her viewpoint.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, you can imagine that doesn't happen.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I mean.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got to expose this assumption.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We can't just let it go unchallenged because it's a major distraction from talking honestly about this debate.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I love that you do that.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember a debate even before I think you started speaking on this years and years ago when Dr.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Norman Geisler and I were doing debates sometimes together.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He did one of those.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember afterwards I said, Norm, I'm just hoping that you don't have a heart attack before you get to the if.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, he spent a very long period of time taking every one of the arguments and making the argument of pro-abortion advocates and then got to if.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, if you don't get to the if, it gets a little bit more difficult.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's an illustration of the fact that that's a whole example of begging the question.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And since you have a book that is 250 pages, I'm going to keep moving because one of the other chapters is what does it mean to be pro-life?

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I appreciate, again, you putting that in there because some people have changed the definitions or, as you put it, have switched the labels.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have to look out for that, too, don't we?

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We do.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's coming from two sides.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: There are some well-intentioned pro-life people who are trying to move us from being pro-life to, quote, whole life.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is very damaging to our cause.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's critics that want to do it.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the critics are a little more pronounced.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They come along and say, oh, you oppose abortion?

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what are you doing about refugees?

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing about poverty?

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing about school lunch programs?

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing about tax increases to help, you know, vulnerable communities?

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, nothing?

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There goes your whole case.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, obviously, if we understand that the argument stands or falls on its merits, not the person making it, our case isn't damaged at all.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's no excuse for us to become jerks.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But it does mean that our argument stands or falls apart from our behavior.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would also add this, Kirby.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: How does it follow that because pro-lifers oppose the intentional killing of an innocent human being, we have to take personal responsibility for fixing everything wrong with society?

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, imagine if I said to the American Cancer Society, you have no right to call yourself a medical organization when you only treat one disease, not all of them.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what are you doing about heart disease and Crohn's disease and lupus and diabetes?

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, nothing.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: There goes your whole argument for being a healthcare organization.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if I said that, I'd be laughed off the stage at a medical conference, and rightfully so.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But yet, if people say that about pro-lifers because we focus on a major point of injustice in our culture today, it's okay to attack us because we're not trying to take on every issue under the sun.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Does anybody say to sex trafficking organizations, you don't really care about human life because you're only treating one injustice, not all of them?

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is silly, and I think pro-lifers need to push back on this.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, again, there are some well-intentioned people on our side that are trying to tell us we need to be whole life.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And here I think they're failing to make an important distinction.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: As Christians, Kirby, you and I will have a broad ethic.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We will care about a lot of issues.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We will care about sex trafficking.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We will do something about poverty.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We will give money to address the refugee situation and other issues.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't follow from the fact that our Christian ethic is broad and inclusive, that the operational objectives of the pro-life movement must be so.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing wrong with us focusing on that single issue.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Frederick the Great put it well, he who attacks everywhere attacks nowhere.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It would bankrupt pro-lifers to take on every issue under the sun.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We can take a break, and I just might mention that this book, as I alluded to, is about 250 pages.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The first section we've been kind of working our way through is pro-life Christians clarify the debate.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll come back and talk about pro-life Christians address some of the worldview questions.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Pro-life Christians survey some of the major thinkers.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then answering some of these objections.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And even coming back and asking a fundamental question, is the Bible pro-life?

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I think you know the answer to many of those.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is an attempt to really try to pull some of this together.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you find yourself saying, oh, that was a good point, and that was a good point.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hoping you're taking some time to write it down or maybe go back and listen to this again.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But let me also point you to the website that we have there.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It is ProLifeTraining.com.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is an opportunity.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And before he's finished, we'll certainly have Scott talk about all the ways he has been involved in equipping Christians to defend pro-life ideas and to defend the unborn since 2004.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: 20 years of work as an individual really articulating these ideas and helping you understand a little bit more about that.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's on the website at pointofview.net.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: If you scroll down, you'll see that, first of all, we also have, of course, information about the book, Case for Life, and even the Case for Life blog.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's CaseforLife.com.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You can find some great material there as well.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So lots of information that is available on the website today at Point of View.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are actually concerned about the pro-life issue, and I hope that you are, and you would like to be better at making the case for life, that's exactly why we're spending an hour today talking about this new edition of the book, The Case for Life, equipping Christians to engage the culture.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott Klusendorf is the guest.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He is the author of the book.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Crossways is the publisher.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We will take a break, and we'll come back with more right after this.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Who can you trust?

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Years ago, many of us could probably have provided a fairly long list, but today, well, today, it seems we almost can't trust anyone.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Educators don't even know what a woman is anymore.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Many so-called public servants have shown all they care about is themselves.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The FBI has been accused of bias, law-breaking, betrayal, and journalism.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's largely corrupt, with no Clark Kent standing up for truth, justice, and the American way.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: All of this is why Point of View Radio is more important than ever.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And your part in supporting us is more needed than ever.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Do your part today in supporting trustworthy truth.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Stand with us and help push back the lies and the darkness.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Visit pointofview.net.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't put it off.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Take a moment right now and click on that big blue button that says,

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Donate Now.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Or call to invest at 1-800-347-5151.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Pointofview.net.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And 800-347-5151.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Continue your conversation today with Scott Klusendorf as we talk about the second edition of his book,

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The Case for Life, Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So many great gems and illustrations and insights in each one of the chapters.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'll keep moving through this and do commend to you reading the book.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But one of the additions that I think is very helpful, Scott, is a whole section on which worldviews inform the abortion debate.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it does seem to me that so often we talk about worldviews here on Point of View.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have done a good job of helping us understand what might be the mindset or the assumptions or the philosophy behind someone arguing for abortion.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's important that we know these underlying worldviews.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me define worldview, though I'm sure your audience having listened to you knows what that is.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But in case there's a straggler out there that is just tuning in for the first time, by worldviews, we mean clusters of foundational beliefs.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Think of them as glasses through which an individual views reality.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And people bring worldview assumptions to topics like abortion.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, if a Christian theist is talking to a philosophical naturalist who's an atheist and starts talking about human life having intrinsic value because it's made in the image of God.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, for the naturalist, that makes no sense at all because the naturalist believes the universe came from nothing and was caused by nothing.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And human beings, like every other living thing, are really just cosmic accidents.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: The blind watchmaker thesis, so to speak.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to know what these worldviews are.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Another prominent player right now is postmodernism, the belief that we can't know reality as it truly is because each of us are trapped behind our own perspectives or our own language communities, as some postmodern writers would say.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Then, of course, the new kid on the block is what we would call wokeness or critical theory.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is perhaps the most damaging worldview at the moment because that worldview, Kirby, says that objective truth, reason, and argument are actually tools of oppression.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the only thing that counts is real knowledge is lived experience.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: The technical term for this is standpoint epistemology, the belief that the only people who can see truth as it really is are victims of oppression.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And everybody else has to shut up and just listen to their perspective.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And any other perspective can be canceled or ruled out on the face of it.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you get people who come to the abortion debate and they say, well, you're a white male.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: You have no standpoint to even talk about this issue.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Notice there's no attempt to refute the argument the pro-lifer is making.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's simply an attempt to shut down the debate or cancel it because the person making their case has no alleged standpoint.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So these are worldviews we need to be aware of and bring our biblical thinking to the table as we engage them.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and again, you talk about the fact that maybe ask the question first are things like right and wrong, real and knowable.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And even for my postmodern friends and my woke friends that actually want to deny that they just can't really live in that world.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are the kind of conversations we've had with Greg Kokel and others because they actually do believe that certain things are right and wrong.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they say, no, it's just a matter of perspective, well, then steal their iPhone or, you know, take their car.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, pretty quickly they begin to object because they do know and they have an intuitive sense that there's right and wrong.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how can you say somebody is an oppressor and being an oppressor is wrong if you believe all morality is just from the standpoint of an alleged victim individual?

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, is that true or just your standpoint?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it just cuts the legs off from their argument.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But we need to know how to recognize where the person is coming from so if need be, we can address those larger worldview assumptions they bring to the abortion debate.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well said.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We will get to some of the exceptions, but I want to postpone that because once we're talking about worldview, you have chapters on does God matter and is the Bible pro-life?

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But again, getting back to this idea in the heart of individuals, they probably do suspect that there is right and wrong, good and evil, God and Satan, even if they don't necessarily articulate it.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And more importantly, if somebody is a new Christian and they're saying, oh, OK, you've given me some good logical reasons why I should be pro-life.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But does the Bible have anything to say about it?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you answer that?

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, people love to say, critics of the pro-life view, the Bible nowhere mentions abortion.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Nowhere will you find the command, thou shalt not have an abortion.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And nowhere does it expressly teach the unborn or human.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go ahead, Kirby, and grant both those premises and still argue the Bible is pro-life.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The first thing I would point out is this.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: When the critic says the Bible nowhere condemns abortion, are they saying that whatever the Bible does not expressly condemn, it allows?

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, where in the Bible, Kirby, does it say thou shalt not use neighbor for shark bait?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's not in there.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that mean we can do it?

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously not, because we can reason from the Scriptures to the conclusion that that would be a forbidden behavior.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And the same is true with abortion.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's how we know this.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The Bible is clear that all humans have value because they bear the image of God.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Genesis 1 teaches that in the Old Covenant.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: James 3 teaches it in the New.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Because humans bear the image of God, Scripture expressly forbids the shedding of innocent blood,

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning the intentional killing of innocent human beings.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Exodus 23, 7 teaches that.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Proverbs 6, 16 to 19 teaches that.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And Matthew 5, 21 teaches that.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So again, in both Old and New Covenants, we've got attestation to the point of not shedding innocent blood.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That leaves us only one question.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Are the unborn human?

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if they are, the same commands against the shedding of innocent blood apply to the unborn as they do everyone else.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And we know from the science of embryology that from the one cell stage, from the earliest stages of development,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the unborn are distinct, living, and whole human beings.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, the commands against shedding innocent blood apply to them as they do everyone else.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: In short, the Bible's pro-life.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the other things that you do address, and it's also helpful, is when people say,

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: well, I don't see thou shalt not have an abortion in the Bible.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You do have a lot of things that are in extra-biblical literature that were written around the time.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But you, of course, raise this question.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Why is the New Testament silent?

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it turns out that all but one of the New Testament authors were Jewish.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they had a Jewish perspective.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's now see what Jewish people living before the time of Christ or after,

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: what they said about things about the womb and about what we would today call abortion.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And you then begin to see that there wasn't as much of a reason to raise it

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because that was sort of the assumption of the culture in which they lived.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You're spot on, Kirby.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the Hebrew culture of the Old Testament, here's what you find.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That commands against abortion were unnecessary.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me just give you a couple of reasons why.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, children were a blessing, not a curse.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, barrenness was the worst curse a woman could have.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And to have lots of children was a place of honor for her.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But beyond that, nationally, Israel was surrounded by enemy nations.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And in order to survive, they had to keep their population levels up.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So they needed to have a lot of kids.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Thirdly, God had given Israel a mandated divine command to be fruitful and multiply,

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and that through their seed, God would bless all nations of the world.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's look at that worldview.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Barrenness is a curse.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Having children is a blessing.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You're surrounded by nations that are hostile to you,

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and God has given you a divine command to be fruitful so that you can bless all nations of the earth.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: In that kind of culture, is elective abortion likely to get a foothold?

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So for the Bible to be silent about it in the Old Testament makes perfect sense.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And you pointed out why it's silent in the New Testament.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The first Christians, the early church, were Jewish believers with an essentially Jewish morality that they had inherited.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And as a result, they also were not likely to intentionally kill their unborn humans.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So no wonder the Bible is silent on this issue.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't need to speak to it because abortion was not something that the Hebrews of the Old Testament or the new believers of the New were doing.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take a break.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And when we come back, we'll finish off with our conversation today with Scott Klusendorf.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, if you've just joined us talking about this book, The Case for Life,

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the second edition forward by Lila Rose and endorsed by just a veritable who's who of individuals,

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: many of whom we've had on this program.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It is published by Crossway Books.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: When we come back, we're going to talk about, okay, what about some of the objections and the exceptions?

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But we're going to do that by really talking about how to ask good questions.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about this before because oftentimes questions can help individuals begin to understand their own particular bias or their assumptions.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll talk about some of those before we wind down.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And once again, before we end, we'll talk about where you can find other great resources that are a good companion to this book, The Case for Life.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be right back.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Continue your conversation with Scott Klusendorf for just a few more minutes.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The book is entitled The Case for Life, and you can go to ProLifeTraining.com.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Find out more about that organization.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Also find out where he'll be speaking because he is doing a number of these pro-life apologetics training sessions

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: in all sorts of places around the country where we broadcast.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So quite likely you could be finding one locally where he might be speaking.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I know he's going to be at the Cannacutt Institute where I speak as well.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And all sorts of resources can be found there at ProLifeTraining.com.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But, Scott, let's, if we can, for just a minute, talk briefly about the kind of questions that you might want to ask.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it does seem to me that sometimes when you hear objections or arguments for excuses for abortion,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes by asking a series of pointed questions, partially to get information,

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to understand where that person's coming from, and also maybe to point out some of their logical flaws,

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that can be a very good strategy.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And certainly when we get into the issue of life, sometimes it can get pretty heated pretty quickly, can't it?

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're spot on, Kirby, because what we want to do is avoid shouldering the burden of proof all the time.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're the one making the claim, you bear the burden of proof.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes our critics are making the claim, and we bear the burden of proof when we shouldn't.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So we want to reverse that and put it back on them where it belongs.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if somebody says to you as a pro-lifer, well, the unborn are not even self-aware yet.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You could very easily reverse the burden of proof and put it on them to prove that point by saying something like,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: tell me what you mean by self-awareness.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you mean I have to be actually self-aware?

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that would mean then that I could be killed while I'm sleeping.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Or do you mean I must merely have the immediately exercisable ability to be self-aware?

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that would protect me while I'm sleeping, but not when I'm under anesthesia for a hospital surgery.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Or do you mean that I must merely have the intrinsic capacity for self-awareness,

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the natural capacity for it in virtue of the kind of thing I am?

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, in that case, that would protect me while I'm sleeping, while I'm having surgery,

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: but it would also apply to your standard fetus or embryo who also has the natural capacity for self-awareness,

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: even though they can't immediately exercise it.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Another question I love to ask people is why is self-awareness value giving in the first place?

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Make them defend that.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I also like to put the human equality question out there.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say, do you believe each and every human being has an equal right to life?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: In today's egalitarian culture, nobody wants to say no.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when they say yes, as they almost always do, I then simply say, if I can demonstrate for you that the unborn are members of the human family,

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that they are human from the beginning, would you agree that they too deserve equal treatment?

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, then the excuses start.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And they'll bring up all their arbitrary things like, oh, it's not self-aware, it's too small, it's too dependent.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just then ask a very simple question.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say, if it's wrong to hurt people because of skin color or gender, why is it okay to hurt them?

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they're too small, less developed, and more dependent.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something they've never thought about.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody has ever turned the tables on them and made them defend what they're actually saying.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a big part of apologetics.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So many good arguments and discussions and suggested questions in the case for life.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I thought I might end by talking about something we focus on, and that is the need for training.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have a section here on Equip to Engage, the Pro-Life Pastor in a Post-Roe America.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so part of it is, what would you, first of all, say to pastors the need for them to address issues,

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: at least on a Sanctity of Life Sunday, but hopefully at other times.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then second of all, what would you say to all of our listeners who could maybe benefit from your Pro-Life training

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: by going to Pro-LifeTraining.com?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you speak to that?

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and this is why I did an update on the book.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The original book had 247 pages.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The second edition has 416.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite a bit fatter.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason is I wanted to give people hands-on training that would equip them to actually put in practice what they've read.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So for a Pro-Life church, here's what a pastor should do.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want your church to be Pro-Life, commit yourself to four big objectives.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Here they are.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, objective number one, teach, preach, and counsel a biblical view of human value,

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning human beings aren't valuable for functions they perform, like self-awareness or viability.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They're valuable because of whose image they bear.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the foundation of their value.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly, preach, teach, and counsel that the intentional killing of innocent human beings through abortion

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: represents the shedding of innocent blood, and the Bible forbids that.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We've already gone over the passages that point that out.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the third thing we need to do that a lot of people forget.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to minister to broken men and women who participated in abortion decisions

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and bring the gospel to them so they can find healing.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it's only in us being declared righteous in virtue of Christ taking our place on the cross,

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's only by being covered in his righteousness that we can find healing from sin.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to preach that biblical gospel to men and women who've been wounded by abortion.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And finally, the thing that most churches ignore, Kirby, is we've got to equip our people to make a case for the pro-life view

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with unchurched people who don't accept biblical arguments.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I think those are all very important issues because we can't necessarily say the Bible says anymore

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because, first of all, that's not necessarily connecting to the rest of the culture,

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but oftentimes people in the churches don't even know what the Bible has to say.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So it brings me back to what you do at the Life Training Institute.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And as I mentioned, there's a place for individuals to learn a little bit more about what is taking place in their community

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and to check in to find out what, for example, you might be talking about

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02]: or what Leslie or a variety of others, Megan, and some of the other people are speaking to.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there is an opportunity by going to the website, ProLifeTraining.com,

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to see if there's actually an event that will be taking place in the community where many of our listeners are located.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so as they go there, even if there's not one in their community,

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: they can benefit from all the great resources that you have on the website, can't they?

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Precisely.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, let me just recommend two things for your listeners to consider.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: In addition to getting a new edition of the Case for Life, I have a self-paced course on my website,

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: ScottKlusendorf.com, or they can get it at ProLifeTraining.com that you mentioned earlier,

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: 10-week course that will equip them with a master's degree level of expertise on defending the pro-life view.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We take a deep dive into the best thinkers on the other side, and that's something everybody can do.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They can take that course at their own pace.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We have lectures, roundtable discussions, interviews to keep it fast-paced and moving.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And the book, The Case for Life, the second edition, is the textbook for the course.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So they can get everything they need to become a very well-rounded pro-life apologist just by doing the course and having the book.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Scott, I appreciate the fact that you've been in this battle for at least 20 years that I know of,

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and before that, even working with Stand to Reason.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it has always been great to learn from you.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But I was thrilled when I found out that this second edition is available because, as you said, over 400 pages.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It is as heavy as a book stop here, you know, but doorstop.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a great resource, and it is one that, as people go through it, will learn how to make the case for life.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for writing it, and thank you for giving us an hour today here on Point of View.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me on, Kirby.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You do great work.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, this is a book that I do commend to you.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott Klusendorf is the president of the Life Training Institute.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: He trains all sorts of pro-life advocates.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are working in a pro-life ministry, really think about having him or one of his associates come and speak.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I would encourage you to get a copy of this book.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And, again, you can get it both in paperback and Kindle.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's available, of course, on our own website at pointofview.net.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: A very important issue, life.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about this for decades here on Point of View.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to equip you to make the case for life.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we're talking about it today here on Point of View.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The Bible tells us not to worry.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: God gives us a next step.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He says we need to pray.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes, even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Each week, you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans, along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Will you commit to Pray for America?

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Go to pointofview.net.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Click on the Pray for America banner.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Point of View will continue after this.