Point of View October 17, 2024 – Hour 2 : The Hope of Heaven

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View.

[00:00:18] Anna Dexter.

[00:00:20] Welcome back to Point of View. As promised, my guest in studio is Sheila Walsh and Sheila Walsh is an author. She's a Bible teacher. She was part of, many of you may remember, the Women of Faith conferences. She's a three-time Grammy nominee and she's a television host.

[00:00:40] She co-hosts several shows including Praise and Better Together on TBN and she's written, she's a writer, she's an author. Her books have sold nearly six million copies and they include some bestsellers like It's Okay Not To Be Okay and Praying Women and the book that I had a great time reading and we're now so excited to talk about The Hope of Heaven, How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. Sheila, thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:09] It's lovely to be with you. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:11] Well, it's good to have you and I was just excited to hear that you are actually a Texan, although you don't sound like one.

[00:01:18] I'm trying.

[00:01:18] But you are a transplanted Texan and so how long have you been in this area?

[00:01:24] We moved to Texas when my son, our son was going into second grade and now he's graduated from grad school and he's in his own practice, he's 28. So we've been here a long time.

[00:01:35] Well, you wrote about heaven and I love to read about heaven. As I mentioned to you when you walked into the studio, I try to read a book about heaven every once in a while.

[00:01:44] But heaven seems like such a mystery to us. And so we have to ask what's it like? But there is a lot in scripture about it, isn't there?

[00:01:53] Yeah, that's what I discovered when I decided to do a deep dive. Even if you just take Matthew's gospel alone, Jesus talks about heaven 70 times. And the thought, the promise, the hope of heaven is scattered throughout the whole Bible.

[00:02:08] And it was just, it was a very exciting adventure for me and it literally has changed how I live day to day.

[00:02:15] Well, I am going to ask you about that because I think it does. I think the hope of heaven does change us. But what was it that prompted you to finally, you know, you've been probably reading about it all your Christian life, to finally write about it?

[00:02:29] Because I decided, I remember one day sitting outside and having a conversation with the Lord and said literally these words, I am fed up with earth. I'm fed up with everything that's going on with the wars, with a heartache. One of my dear friends was just diagnosed with cancer for the third time. And it just felt overwhelming.

[00:02:49] And I made one of those ridiculous statements, you know, Lord, just, I do not want one more thing. And so one more thing happened. I had a kind of freak accident and thought I had broken my neck.

[00:03:01] And my husband had to take me to the emergency room and they were busy and they were short staffed. And they said, it'll probably be a six hour wait. It turned into 18 hours. And at the end of the time, the neurosurgeon said, no, you haven't broken your neck. You've just torn ligaments. They will heal.

[00:03:17] But I found myself asking the Lord, why? What's wrong with me at the moment? I've walked with you for years. You have a track record with me, but I'm finding it hard to hold on to hope at the moment.

[00:03:28] And then that's when I turned to Hebrews chapter 12, verse two. And I actually wrote it down in the message translation, which I don't use for Bible study, but I love this.

[00:03:38] Where it says, keep your eyes on Jesus, who both began and finished this race we're in. Study how he did it, because he never lost sight of where he was headed.

[00:03:48] That exhilarating finish and within and with God, he could put up with anything along the way, cross, shame, whatever.

[00:03:55] And now he's there in the place of honor, right alongside God.

[00:03:59] So I took that literally study how he did it. So I began to dive deep into scripture and find everything I could know about, about what heaven is like and what will our lives be like in heaven?

[00:04:11] Who goes to heaven? Will I be fat in heaven? Does my dog make it?

[00:04:15] If you read about heaven, you realize, I think as a Christian, if you're reading honestly, that heaven is real.

[00:04:21] But there are a lot of people, even believers that don't think it's real. And you've got a whole chapter on is heaven real?

[00:04:27] So if someone wants to know, for instance, someone who's dying or maybe a child asked you the question, is heaven real? What do you say?

[00:04:36] Heaven is a very real place. The word is actually used for heaven or for paradise. It's something you can physically locate.

[00:04:44] It is a real place. And scripture talks about three heavens.

[00:04:47] The first heaven is what we see when we walk outside, the birds in the air.

[00:04:51] And the second heaven is the galaxies and the stars.

[00:04:54] And the third heaven, which is also called paradise, is where Jesus is right now.

[00:04:59] It's where my mom and dad are right now.

[00:05:02] Anybody who is a believer who dies before the return of Christ immediately goes to paradise.

[00:05:07] It's not our final destination because we're told in Revelation that a new heaven and a new earth will come down from God and he will dwell with us.

[00:05:15] But interestingly, I was just a couple of days ago, I was speaking in San Antonio at a crisis pregnancy banquet.

[00:05:22] They were celebrating 40 years.

[00:05:24] And to be able to say to some young women who had gone through and actually had an abortion and were troubled and were in a program for healing,

[00:05:32] to say to them, you will see that little one again.

[00:05:34] That little one is safely home with Jesus.

[00:05:39] So speaking of timing on heaven and Christ coming back to earth.

[00:05:45] So we assume that, and you just said the third heaven is where the believer goes immediately when they die.

[00:05:52] And, you know, you saw, I mean, the thief on the cross and Christ told him that you'll see me in paradise.

[00:06:00] But so when do we get there immediately?

[00:06:05] We're gone from the body.

[00:06:06] We're there?

[00:06:07] Immediately.

[00:06:08] In fact, it's really interesting.

[00:06:09] When I read this that Paul the Apostle wrote, he wrote it as a church in Corinth, which was Corinth in that day was basically Vegas of the day.

[00:06:18] They said, you know, what happens in Corinth stays in Corinth.

[00:06:22] A lot of captains of ships would say it is not for every man that we land in Corinth.

[00:06:26] It was a very evil place.

[00:06:29] It was a place of worship of all sorts of false gods.

[00:06:31] But Paul wrote something to that in his second letter to that church.

[00:06:35] And he talked about, he said, 14 years ago, I was caught up to the third heaven.

[00:06:41] And it says, whether I was in my body or I don't really know, but I was caught up and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words.

[00:06:50] Things no human is allowed to tell.

[00:06:52] Because I used to wonder, okay, Paul, you write to some churches and you say this light and momentary trouble.

[00:06:58] It was not light or momentary trouble.

[00:07:01] Some of our listeners right now are going through things.

[00:07:03] Not light, not momentary, devastating.

[00:07:07] But because of what Paul was allowed to see, he was given a vision.

[00:07:11] He was taken to paradise and shown.

[00:07:13] And I think that's why he was able to say to us, listen, I know this is hard.

[00:07:17] I know that you're hurting.

[00:07:19] But if you understood what Jesus has for us, hold on and keep looking up.

[00:07:24] I think that's why I like to read about heaven.

[00:07:28] It reminds us that the things that we face here on earth, they may seem hard.

[00:07:33] They may seem world changing.

[00:07:35] And sometimes they are.

[00:07:36] But there's more.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:38] And that's to me, that is the hope.

[00:07:40] And when I was young, I remember thinking, well, I want to go to heaven because it certainly, you know, beats the alternative.

[00:07:46] But I thought, what are we going to do?

[00:07:48] Are we just going to sit around and sing Kumbaya for 2,000 years?

[00:07:51] I actually asked my mom when I was a young girl, if I die early, could you bury me with some books?

[00:07:56] Because I just might want something to read.

[00:07:58] I might get bored.

[00:07:59] I might get bored.

[00:08:00] Well, I discovered that is very wrong.

[00:08:02] Okay.

[00:08:03] Well, ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question you'd like to ask Sheila Walsh, obviously she's studied heaven.

[00:08:10] She's looked at the scriptures, something we can all do.

[00:08:13] And we can do it by really reading her book, The Hope of Heaven.

[00:08:17] And I don't know, it comes out, I think, next week.

[00:08:20] Next Tuesday.

[00:08:21] Okay, next Tuesday.

[00:08:23] And you can also order it.

[00:08:24] And you can go to pointofview.net and click through and do that and find out more about the book.

[00:08:29] But we're going to continue our conversation for the remainder of the program.

[00:08:35] And we'll take your calls, 800-351-1212.

[00:08:39] If you've got a question about heaven for Sheila Walsh, give us a call.

[00:08:43] We'll be right back with more after these messages.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] As we look through the corridors of history, we see the rise and fall of nations.

[00:09:06] The symptoms of societal decline are well known.

[00:09:09] Governments spend too much and debase their currency.

[00:09:12] Leaders get decadent and patriotism declines.

[00:09:15] Families fracture and eventually the society falls apart.

[00:09:18] A nation in decline fails to protect its citizens.

[00:09:21] One of the important functions of a society is to protect the weak from those who intend them harm.

[00:09:25] Not only is crime in the streets, but it becomes difficult and eventually impossible to travel anywhere.

[00:09:31] In the ancient world, that surfaced in the form of highway robbery.

[00:09:34] In a recent commentary, Tucker Carlson explained that the modern version of this is carjacking.

[00:09:40] He says,

[00:10:07] Tucker Carlson then brought the story closer to home.

[00:10:10] Carjacking has become a permanent feature of life in New Orleans.

[00:10:13] That's not surprising since the city probably needs 2,000 police and has under 500 active duty police.

[00:10:20] The crime problem in this city can be found in many other cities in the nation.

[00:10:24] Two years of defund the police have had their toll on the officers, on the police force,

[00:10:28] and have kept possible recruits from joining the police force in their city.

[00:10:31] There are many signs of societal decline.

[00:10:34] We should add increased crime and carjacking to the growing list of problems in America.

[00:10:39] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on biblical reliability, go to viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:53] Viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:05] Welcome back to Point of View.

[00:11:07] I'm Penna Dexter, and in studio with me is Sheila Walsh.

[00:11:09] She's written a book about heaven, and it's just fun to talk about it.

[00:11:14] It's fun to wonder about some of these things, Sheila,

[00:11:16] but one thing I always do wonder about, and I can't really answer questions about this,

[00:11:21] and maybe you can.

[00:11:22] So we die, and our body is in the ground, and yet we get to be with Christ immediately.

[00:11:31] So is it just our spirit and soul that are with Christ?

[00:11:35] And if that's the case, do we recognize people?

[00:11:38] That's a great question.

[00:11:39] Or do we know the answer?

[00:11:41] We probably do not know the answer to everything.

[00:11:44] But if you think about it, if you think of people like Enoch,

[00:11:46] we read in the book of Genesis that Enoch was a godly man,

[00:11:50] that he walked with God every day,

[00:11:52] and then one day he was no more because he was taken up to heaven.

[00:11:55] I kind of imagine God saying to him one day,

[00:11:58] you know what, Enoch, we're actually closer to my house than yours.

[00:12:00] Let's just go home.

[00:12:02] So we know that Enoch went up as he was.

[00:12:04] We know that that happened to Elijah too.

[00:12:06] You know, when Elijah knows his time has come and a chariot is coming to get him,

[00:12:10] Elisha says, please, please see, you know.

[00:12:14] And usually you would confer a blessing on someone who's going to be your disciple.

[00:12:18] And what Elijah asked for was, could I have twice the blessing that was on your life?

[00:12:23] And interestingly, Elijah had five miracles in his life.

[00:12:27] Elisha had ten miracles.

[00:12:28] But he was taken up and he saw him go.

[00:12:31] So, I mean, our body does go on the ground,

[00:12:33] but I believe that we will recognize each other even in paradise before Christ returns.

[00:12:38] You mentioned the account of the stoning of Stephen.

[00:12:42] And I know that you and I both had a time at Christian Broadcasting Network.

[00:12:48] You were co-host there.

[00:12:49] I was leading tours of the facility.

[00:12:52] My husband was working there.

[00:12:54] And they have paintings there in the main center.

[00:12:56] And there's one painting of the stoning of Stephen.

[00:12:58] And I remember I used to show it to people when they would come through to visit.

[00:13:03] And there in that, he saw Jesus standing at God's right hand.

[00:13:07] And he said, so he could actually see Jesus.

[00:13:10] He wasn't there yet.

[00:13:11] And he said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

[00:13:14] And this is such a comfort, I think, to our loved ones to know.

[00:13:18] And I know that when my mom died and I was there, she didn't say she saw Jesus, but she just seemed to see him.

[00:13:27] She just seemed to be so aware of what was coming.

[00:13:30] You hear that so many times.

[00:13:32] I worked with a friend of mine who's a pediatric oncologist who was not a believer until she watched children die.

[00:13:39] Now, you would think that would be the antithesis of the situation, that seeing a child die would make you think there cannot be a good God.

[00:13:46] But she said, if you saw the way that Christ comes to meet children as they're taking their last breath, it is breathtaking.

[00:13:52] The thing I love about Stephen, and I wonder this often for those who have been martyred.

[00:13:57] I think of those 12 men.

[00:13:59] I think it was in Libya on the beach who were beheaded.

[00:14:03] I wonder if they were given that gift, too, because I often think Stephen literally got a standing ovation from Jesus.

[00:14:09] Because scripture tells us Christ is seated beside the Father on the right hand of the Father.

[00:14:14] But what he was given the privilege of seeing was Jesus standing, waiting to welcome him home.

[00:14:20] And I think that's just such a beautiful picture of comfort.

[00:14:24] And for me, it's very personal.

[00:14:26] My father died by suicide when I was five years old.

[00:14:29] And he was an incredible godly man who had a devastating brain injury that impacted his personality.

[00:14:36] And he was taken off to one of our local psychiatric hospitals.

[00:14:40] But he would have moments when he recognized who he was and moments when he did not.

[00:14:45] And he actually escaped from the hospital one night and drowned himself in the river behind the hospital.

[00:14:52] And he was buried in an unmarked grave at that point in Scotland because he was involved in the church.

[00:14:58] He died by suicide.

[00:14:59] It was looked on as a great shame.

[00:15:02] And so he was buried in an unmarked grave.

[00:15:04] But when I was older, I flew back and I went to the hospital.

[00:15:08] And I took the walk that I believe he must have taken that night down to the river.

[00:15:13] But I had such a sense, instead of the horror of the peace of Jesus, of feeling the Lord say, Sheila,

[00:15:20] he literally went from this earth into my arms.

[00:15:23] And I carried him home.

[00:15:24] I'm sure your father, in reading the story, I was thinking about it.

[00:15:29] He was probably utterly, utterly devastated that he actually didn't have the control of the man that he had been.

[00:15:38] And so, you know, he just probably was just desperate to.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:44] And I think it was very hard for him that the only person until the last day, the only person he took his rage out on was me.

[00:15:51] And there were three of us as children.

[00:15:53] And I thought I was the one who was closest to my dad.

[00:15:55] But a friend of mine who's a neurosurgeon said that sometimes when there's an extreme brain injury,

[00:16:00] the person instinctively reaches out to the one person they believe will love them no matter what.

[00:16:05] But you don't understand that when you're five.

[00:16:08] And my dad escaped two times, well, three times actually from the hospital.

[00:16:13] The first two times he got on a bus and he came home.

[00:16:17] And it was a very bad situation.

[00:16:20] And the third time he didn't turn right out of the hospital.

[00:16:23] He turned left and took his own life.

[00:16:26] And I think it was just not being able to live anymore with realizing what his life had become.

[00:16:31] Oh, well, I know that that affected your entire life.

[00:16:36] But it's also drawn you to the Lord.

[00:16:39] And I'm grateful that you told us that story.

[00:16:42] One other person who was able to see heaven was a person that she lived in the 1300s, Julian of Norwich.

[00:16:53] And I read a book about her this past year.

[00:16:55] She was allowed to see visions.

[00:16:58] After a long illness, she was able to see these.

[00:17:00] And after this long illness and then seeing these visions, she said,

[00:17:04] all shall be well and all shall be well in all manner of things shall be well.

[00:17:08] A lot of people have heard that.

[00:17:10] And so can you talk about what do you think she was reacting to?

[00:17:15] I think she saw the inequity of this life.

[00:17:18] I think she went through some very hard personal things in her own life.

[00:17:22] I think she saw things going on in the world.

[00:17:24] But when she was given these visions, which was such a gift to be able to see into the hope that we have.

[00:17:31] I have read that phrase over and over.

[00:17:34] And the fact that she ended by saying all manner of things shall be well.

[00:17:39] It was like there's some things on this earth that will not be well.

[00:17:42] You know, sometimes we preach a Christianity where it's like give your life to Jesus and everything will be great,

[00:17:46] which is ridiculous and unscriptural.

[00:17:48] But I think what she saw was, you know, but when Christ has finally, when the plan is finished.

[00:17:54] And I think I used to think that when when I first see Jesus that I would cry.

[00:18:02] Now I wonder if I'll laugh.

[00:18:04] I wonder if I laugh with outrageous joy, finally getting a picture of how we were always supposed to be.

[00:18:11] And I think that's that's what she saw.

[00:18:14] It's all going to be OK.

[00:18:16] She's still living.

[00:18:18] You know, that's the wonderful thing to think about is she's still living and maybe someday we'll have a conversation.

[00:18:25] Who knows?

[00:18:26] Yes.

[00:18:28] So our disappointments living on earth, you've already referred to that.

[00:18:33] Does disappointment exist in heaven?

[00:18:36] Absolutely not.

[00:18:37] There will be no more disappointment.

[00:18:40] I think I also think of people like like my mom, for example.

[00:18:43] She had to leave school when she was 14.

[00:18:45] She wanted to be a teacher.

[00:18:46] But my grandfather had Alzheimer's and was becoming very difficult to handle.

[00:18:51] And so my mom quit school so she could get a job and she could help my grandmother.

[00:18:56] And that kind of, you know, those little seeds.

[00:18:59] And I think so many people listening in who thought they could do one thing with their life.

[00:19:03] They had some great thought or plan or desire or gifting.

[00:19:07] And life took a different turn and they weren't able to.

[00:19:11] I think that when once this new heaven and new earth comes, when Jesus returns, all those things, I believe, will be fulfilled.

[00:19:19] Those little things that you thought you might do.

[00:19:22] But then you've got nine grandchildren.

[00:19:24] So how could you possibly have time to do that?

[00:19:26] But all of those things, I believe, I think that musicians will compose music we've never heard before.

[00:19:33] Artists will paint with colors we've never seen before.

[00:19:35] And we will have assignments in heaven.

[00:19:38] It's not just sitting around reading a book that you've rescued out of your casket.

[00:19:42] You know, sometimes the things that we think are going to fulfill us on earth don't.

[00:19:48] And God has a better idea.

[00:19:50] And that disappointment is part of that.

[00:19:52] It's hard for us to understand it when we're going through it.

[00:19:55] But I think looking back, sometimes you can.

[00:20:00] So you gave in your book some good reasons to look forward to heaven.

[00:20:04] I think it's good to look at some of these.

[00:20:06] One, number one, Jesus will be there.

[00:20:08] Well, yeah, I mean, that's I can't imagine what that will actually be like to finally see Jesus face to face.

[00:20:15] The only one in all of eternity who will carry the scars of the choice he made for us.

[00:20:21] All our scars and wounds will be gone.

[00:20:23] There will be no marks on us.

[00:20:26] But on Jesus, he chose to keep the scars.

[00:20:29] He could have left them in the tomb, but he didn't.

[00:20:32] And they became a sign of love.

[00:20:35] I think scars are proof that God heals.

[00:20:37] So the fact that we'll finally get to see Jesus face to face, I think, is just absolutely glorious.

[00:20:44] Since we're coming to a break, I'm going to read the other reasons.

[00:20:47] Your citizenship is there.

[00:20:49] You belong there.

[00:20:51] Your friends and family are there in heaven.

[00:20:54] Your spiritual heroes are there.

[00:20:58] And it's sort of a fine tuning of our focus.

[00:21:02] We'll talk about that after the break.

[00:21:03] But Jesus is there, as we said, and peace and joy forever are also there in heaven.

[00:21:10] We are talking with Sheila Walsh.

[00:21:13] Her book is The Hope of Heaven.

[00:21:15] We will take your calls if you'd like to ask her a question.

[00:21:18] 800-351-1212.

[00:21:21] You're listening to Point of View.

[00:21:23] You might check out the book at pointofview.net, and we'll be right back.

[00:21:30] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:21:36] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:21:40] People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics.

[00:21:45] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:21:49] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:21:53] You feel like giving up.

[00:21:54] But we can't.

[00:21:56] We shouldn't.

[00:21:57] We must not.

[00:21:58] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:22:02] Never give in.

[00:22:04] Never give in.

[00:22:05] Never, never, never.

[00:22:07] Never yield to force.

[00:22:08] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:22:12] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:22:15] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:22:23] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:22:30] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:22:39] Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151.

[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now, here again is Penna Dexter.

[00:23:13] And Sheila Walsh in studio with me.

[00:23:16] We're talking about heaven.

[00:23:17] And I did open the phones for you to ask Sheila some questions.

[00:23:21] We've got some folks waiting to do just that.

[00:23:24] So let's go to South Carolina and speak with Tammy.

[00:23:27] Hi, Tammy.

[00:23:28] What is your question for Sheila Walsh?

[00:23:31] My question is, my dad passed away two years ago.

[00:23:35] And, you know, you hear different stories and beliefs.

[00:23:39] And I know it says that the people in heaven will know you as you are when you get to heaven.

[00:23:46] Or, you know, if we go when the Lord returns.

[00:23:50] And, I mean, will he know me as his daughter?

[00:23:54] Will he know my mother as his wife?

[00:23:58] Absolutely.

[00:23:58] How will he?

[00:23:59] Absolutely.

[00:24:00] And it's interesting.

[00:24:01] The more research I did in terms of even simple questions like, how old will we be in heaven?

[00:24:06] You know, what if a baby dies at three days and somebody else dies at 96?

[00:24:12] Will they be those ages?

[00:24:13] Most conservative theologians throughout the ages have said they believe that we will be at what would have been the prime of life.

[00:24:20] Maybe even the age that Jesus was when he gave his life for us.

[00:24:24] But, yes, absolutely.

[00:24:25] You will be known.

[00:24:27] You will recognize them.

[00:24:28] It says we won't be married in heaven.

[00:24:31] But we will know one another.

[00:24:33] And there will be a lot of people waiting to hug you and say, welcome home.

[00:24:39] Well, thank you for that.

[00:24:40] And I have one more question.

[00:24:42] And the family that is there, like we've lost so many family members in the last few years.

[00:24:51] Do they greet one another there, you think?

[00:24:58] Or, you know, when they pass on?

[00:25:02] I've wondered that, too.

[00:25:03] Or do you greet one another when Christ comes back?

[00:25:06] That's a great question, Tammy.

[00:25:07] And, honestly, I don't know the answer to that.

[00:25:09] I don't know whether it's something that I know that every believer who dies meets Christ.

[00:25:16] They're in heaven.

[00:25:18] But whether we'll be able to talk to one another.

[00:25:21] And I honestly don't know that.

[00:25:23] The more I search scripture, I couldn't find something that declared absolutely.

[00:25:27] Now, do I think we probably will?

[00:25:29] Yeah.

[00:25:30] From my study of scriptures, I think we probably will be able to.

[00:25:33] But somebody said, well, then, if we're going through something really tough down here, will they be able to see that?

[00:25:40] And I don't think that's true because I don't think in the presence of Christ that grief would be there.

[00:25:45] I think there will just be a sense because time to us, it's like my mom died eight years ago.

[00:25:50] My dad died a long time ago.

[00:25:52] But time is just a human concept, whereas in heaven, it's like a second.

[00:25:57] It's like a moment.

[00:25:59] So I do know that time will not be the same.

[00:26:04] When we finally are home, it will almost look like we all came home together.

[00:26:08] Oh, wow.

[00:26:09] Okay.

[00:26:10] Thank you so much.

[00:26:11] And that really helped a lot.

[00:26:13] Thank you, Tammy.

[00:26:14] Thank you, Tammy.

[00:26:15] Let's go to Adam in California.

[00:26:18] Hi, Adam.

[00:26:19] You're on Point of View.

[00:26:21] I just wanted to share.

[00:26:23] Thank you for sharing.

[00:26:25] And I had a lot of family members that have been violated or died or that, you know, cancers or like being violated by family members or people.

[00:26:34] And I've always encouraged them that death used to be my biggest fear, but now it's him saying I never knew you.

[00:26:40] And I'm not saying that in a negative way, but I'm giving them more hope than themselves.

[00:26:46] Like you mentioned your father.

[00:26:48] And if someone, I've had suicide, and I remember telling them that before.

[00:26:54] So my, I'm just wondering if that's an encouragement.

[00:26:59] Yeah.

[00:27:00] Yeah, I know what you're saying, Adam.

[00:27:03] And honestly, my belief is we're not judged by the last thing we did.

[00:27:06] We're judged by the final thing that Jesus did.

[00:27:09] And when Jesus died on the cross, he said, it is finished.

[00:27:13] Bill paid in full.

[00:27:15] And I believe that.

[00:27:17] I mean, it's, I was speaking at a church somewhere in South Carolina and a young girl came up to me in floods of tears because she had been told that her dad, who was an elder in the church, but struggled with devastating depression, bipolar, and had taken his life.

[00:27:32] And someone in the church told her, your dad didn't make it to heaven.

[00:27:35] That is an absolute lie.

[00:27:37] The only, the only reason that we would not make it is if we refused Jesus.

[00:27:42] If we said, yeah, maybe you did come, but I don't want anything.

[00:27:45] That is the only other unforgivable sin.

[00:27:48] But other than that, we're all home.

[00:27:53] Adam, thank you for calling.

[00:27:55] I'm glad that you kind of cleared that up.

[00:27:59] That's a terrible misconception to have when that is something that's in your life.

[00:28:06] Everyone's invited, but we've got to respond to the invitation, don't we?

[00:28:12] Absolutely.

[00:28:13] And honestly, Pena, that was the hardest chapter for me to write.

[00:28:16] Does everyone go to heaven?

[00:28:17] And so I did a kind of, just threw the question out on Facebook one night and just kind of said, you know, what do you think about heaven?

[00:28:25] Who goes?

[00:28:25] Who doesn't go?

[00:28:26] What do you think?

[00:28:27] And a lot of people wrote things like, well, I've led a pretty good life and I give to charity and I do all sorts of things.

[00:28:33] So I'm pretty sure I'll be in.

[00:28:36] And other people were saying things like, I've really messed up.

[00:28:38] One person said, I spent time in prison.

[00:28:42] I've done some terrible things.

[00:28:43] I'm sure I'm not going to be there.

[00:28:45] And both of those are really inaccurate because the only thing that is the only entrance is saying yes to Jesus.

[00:28:53] And someone said to me recently, well, that's a ridiculously narrow door.

[00:28:57] And I said, it's the widest narrow door in all of eternity.

[00:29:01] Because if you read Romans chapter 10, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

[00:29:06] But when Jesus was trying to explain to the disciples at that last supper that he was going to be leaving them and they knew where he was going.

[00:29:13] And Thomas says, look, we don't know where you're going.

[00:29:15] What is the way?

[00:29:16] And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life.

[00:29:21] No one comes to the Father but by me.

[00:29:24] So if anyone has told you that there's different ways to get to heaven, you don't have to believe in Jesus.

[00:29:29] If you study the Bible and you believe the Bible as I do, that's not true.

[00:29:34] But then on the other hand, we have people like the Pope saying that basically everyone gets to go there.

[00:29:43] And I mean, it's amazing the Pope is saying that, isn't it?

[00:29:46] Well, when I read that, I was genuinely shocked by that, that his initial statement, which I believe may have been retracted, but was that all religions lead to heaven.

[00:29:57] And I thought it's a tremendous responsibility when you have people who look to you for spiritual guidance.

[00:30:03] Or, you know, I think of that every time.

[00:30:06] One of my dearest friends is a guy called Dr. David Jeremiah.

[00:30:09] And I said to him recently in an interview, when you walk up those steps onto the pulpit, what's going on?

[00:30:17] And he said, well, I always before I get up, I take a little step forward.

[00:30:21] And I'm so aware of saying, Lord, now I'm stepping into your power.

[00:30:24] This matters.

[00:30:25] Make sure that what I share is 100 percent true, that I can show people from from scripture.

[00:30:31] So that's why I really encourage people, whether you are 18 or 88, read your Bible.

[00:30:38] I mean, it's got it's not this boring old book.

[00:30:40] It's this love letter from Genesis to Revelation.

[00:30:43] And it's not about religion.

[00:30:46] It's 100 percent about relationship.

[00:30:49] Yes, it is.

[00:30:51] Well, it's a huge responsibility that a religious leader has.

[00:30:56] And so it's it is shocking.

[00:30:59] I hope that I hope that there's another pope sometime that actually goes back to, you know, doctrinaire orthodox Christianity.

[00:31:09] So what about your journey, Sheila?

[00:31:11] I mean, in a moment you became a believer.

[00:31:14] But you say in your book that it took years for you to really understand was it what it was to be a believer.

[00:31:20] I think that's probably the case with most people.

[00:31:22] I knew in a moment that I was saved just from praying a prayer.

[00:31:27] But my Christian life has been, you know, fits and starts back and forth.

[00:31:33] I never doubted.

[00:31:34] But I know that I've grown.

[00:31:37] Oh, gosh, absolutely.

[00:31:38] And and that's still an ongoing process for me.

[00:31:41] And part of it was that I carried so much shame after my father's suicide.

[00:31:46] He had he had tried to take his rage out on me the night before he was taken off.

[00:31:50] And I grew up thinking, what did my dad see in me that made him hate me so much?

[00:31:55] Because as a child, you don't understand exactly what's going on.

[00:31:58] And even when I was the co-host of the 700 Club for years inside, I was still the same scared little broken girl who wouldn't let anybody get close to her in case you saw what my father saw.

[00:32:10] And it took me ending up in a psych hospital at 34 to finally understand that God's love for me is not based on my behavior or what I've done right or wrong.

[00:32:20] It's based on the finished work of Jesus that my worst nightmare became the most transformative place in my life.

[00:32:27] Sometimes God will take you to a prison to set you free.

[00:32:31] Okay, we don't have a lot of time, but a lot of people wonder if their dog or their cat is going to be in heaven.

[00:32:39] I absolutely believe that.

[00:32:40] If you think about it, go back to the very beginning and read Genesis 1 and 2.

[00:32:45] And Adam was given dominion over all the animals.

[00:32:47] He was allowed to name them, say what they would be.

[00:32:50] And we're told throughout the Old Testament prophets that when this new kingdom comes, the lion will lay down with the lamb.

[00:32:57] I heard somebody say that they were swimming in a river and this tiger in India came up behind them and they were terrified.

[00:33:05] Well, Dr. Jeremiah said to me last week, you know what?

[00:33:08] In heaven you'll just say, oh, look, my pet tiger came to join me.

[00:33:12] Okay, that probably really sets a lot of people's hearts at ease to know this.

[00:33:18] Ladies and gentlemen, we are talking about heaven.

[00:33:20] Again, my guest is Sheila Walsh.

[00:33:22] She's delightful and the book is important.

[00:33:25] You can find out more about the book at pointofview.net.

[00:33:31] And you can also, I think you can find out more about ordering it.

[00:33:35] We'll talk about that after the break.

[00:33:36] Stick with us.

[00:33:38] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] Welcome back to the final segment of today's show.

[00:34:04] And I'm sad it's the final segment because there's a lot more I want to ask Sheila, and you may too.

[00:34:11] But you can get her book and you can do it by going to pointofview.net.

[00:34:16] But Sheila, talk a little bit about what can happen.

[00:34:19] I know the book is actually on sale in bookstores beginning...

[00:34:22] Beginning next Tuesday.

[00:34:24] Okay.

[00:34:24] I love my book company, Baker Books.

[00:34:26] They're amazing.

[00:34:27] And what they've done is if people pre-order the book and then go to SheilaWalsh.com and put in their information,

[00:34:33] they will get the free Bible study.

[00:34:36] They will get the free audio book with me reading the audio book.

[00:34:39] And the first three chapters of the book they would get today.

[00:34:42] And that ends on Tuesday, I think.

[00:34:44] Okay.

[00:34:44] Well, good to know.

[00:34:45] And there's so much scripture in the book backing up everything that's in there.

[00:34:50] So that would be important, I think, to get the Bible study.

[00:34:53] Okay.

[00:34:54] So the dogs are going to be there.

[00:34:57] The cats are going to be there.

[00:34:58] But the other question is, what about my bodily imperfections?

[00:35:03] Will I have those?

[00:35:05] No, I don't think so at all.

[00:35:06] Because I think Adam and Eve, when they were created, that's how God pictured how a man and a woman should be.

[00:35:13] And there were no imperfections.

[00:35:15] It was only when their eyes were opened, as it were, that they suddenly saw things about themselves that they didn't like.

[00:35:21] So I believe in heaven.

[00:35:23] No.

[00:35:24] The blind will see.

[00:35:25] One of my favorite people in the universe is Johnny Erickson Tada.

[00:35:28] We've been friends for 40 years.

[00:35:30] And when we first met, I was like a Christian rock singer with spiky hair and leather pants.

[00:35:35] And she was the same usual beautiful Johnny.

[00:35:38] But we immediately clicked.

[00:35:40] And I was interviewing her the other day.

[00:35:43] And she was talking about what it's going to be like to finally be able to run toward Jesus and then fall at his feet.

[00:35:49] There will be no more imperfections.

[00:35:52] She's such an inspiration.

[00:35:53] You almost think she's perfect now.

[00:35:55] I know.

[00:35:56] And yet she's dealt with being a quadriplegic since she was 16 years old.

[00:36:02] And she just turned 65 this week.

[00:36:05] So that is a long time in a wheelchair.

[00:36:07] Yes, it is.

[00:36:09] Yes, it is.

[00:36:10] Okay.

[00:36:11] So we answered the question, I won't be fat in heaven.

[00:36:14] I won't be too skinny in heaven.

[00:36:16] I'll be, I guess, perfect.

[00:36:18] Yeah.

[00:36:19] Whatever looks perfect to God, that's how he created us to be.

[00:36:23] And that's how we will be.

[00:36:25] What about our shame?

[00:36:26] You mentioned your shame.

[00:36:28] That will be completely gone, right?

[00:36:29] That will be completely gone.

[00:36:31] You know, I love that when David wrote Psalm 34, he was at one of the lowest points of his life.

[00:36:37] He had pretended.

[00:36:38] I mean, he'd done something terrible that cost 80 priests their lives.

[00:36:41] Then he pretended to be insane in another city and was kicked out.

[00:36:45] So he's now in a cave.

[00:36:47] And what he does is he writes Psalm 34.

[00:36:50] And he says, those who look to him will be radiant with joy.

[00:36:54] No shadow of shame will touch their faces.

[00:36:56] So I think Christ offers, even now, he offers us a way to lay our shame down.

[00:37:01] But in heaven, shame will no longer exist.

[00:37:04] It will be gone.

[00:37:05] We won't compare ourselves to one another.

[00:37:07] We won't look at each other and think, well, why is she taller than me?

[00:37:10] Or why is he more handsome than me?

[00:37:12] There will be none of that.

[00:37:13] And there will be no sun and no moon because Christ himself will be the light.

[00:37:18] So, okay, Melinda, I'm going to come to you before I run out of time.

[00:37:24] Melinda's in Georgia.

[00:37:25] You've got a question for Sheila Walsh.

[00:37:27] What's your question?

[00:37:28] I do.

[00:37:29] First of all, thank you, Sheila, for writing this book.

[00:37:31] I can't wait to have our promised inheritance.

[00:37:33] Amen.

[00:37:34] Help us to look forward to that joy.

[00:37:37] When we're raptured and then after the seven-year tribulation and Armageddon's going on,

[00:37:42] we get on our white horses and we're coming back to earth.

[00:37:45] Is that all people in heaven?

[00:37:47] Yes.

[00:37:49] That's, in fact, this morning I just got an email from Dr. Jeremiah.

[00:37:53] He's written a new book, which is about the millennium.

[00:37:56] It's about the thousand years of Christ's reign, which will happen before the battle of Armageddon.

[00:38:01] And that's when Satan will be cast into a pit and he will be chained up for a thousand years.

[00:38:07] And so we will, those of us who have died, will be with Jesus at that point and come back down and live.

[00:38:13] And if we were people who trusted in Jesus, we will not die during the millennium.

[00:38:18] But in the end of that thousand years, that's when Satan will be released to do his final dastardly work.

[00:38:25] And that's when he will be punished forever.

[00:38:27] And then a new heaven and a new earth says in Revelation 21, it says that God himself will be with us.

[00:38:35] But it talks about heaven coming down to earth.

[00:38:38] We will have a new heaven and a new earth.

[00:38:42] I can't wait for the new heaven and new earth.

[00:38:45] So, you know, I think the way I looked at it when I was reading your book, Sheila, was that we're going to go up in a sense.

[00:38:54] We'll go up to the third heaven.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:56] We'll be with Christ.

[00:38:58] And we may not have a body at all.

[00:39:01] I mean, I don't know.

[00:39:02] But then we will be back on earth.

[00:39:07] Christ will be there.

[00:39:08] It will be unbelievably light.

[00:39:11] It will be beautiful.

[00:39:13] And we'll live with Jesus forever.

[00:39:15] Well, this thousand year millennium period, the millennium period, Christ will be on the throne in Jerusalem.

[00:39:20] And King David will be his vice president, basically, for that thousand year period.

[00:39:25] And at the end of that thousand year period, where there will be peace on earth, we will not sin.

[00:39:30] It will be beautiful.

[00:39:31] Those who don't know the Lord still have the capacity to sin.

[00:39:34] But he can no longer blame it on the devil because he's going to be bound up for a thousand years.

[00:39:39] And at the end of that, when he's finally thrown into the fiery pit, that's when a new heaven and a new earth will come down.

[00:39:45] And we will live and reign with Christ forever.

[00:39:49] Okay.

[00:39:49] What are we going to be doing?

[00:39:53] Both heavens.

[00:39:54] Third heaven.

[00:39:55] And then when we're in this beautiful new heaven and new earth, what will we do?

[00:39:59] One of the things I think is fascinating is when Jesus sat down with his closest friends right before he was about to be betrayed and executed.

[00:40:07] He sat down on the Mount of Olives.

[00:40:09] And if you go to Matthew chapter 25 and you read that, Jesus tells two stories.

[00:40:14] The second story is about the master going away for a long time.

[00:40:18] And that's Jesus.

[00:40:19] And entrusting different gifts to his people.

[00:40:23] One, he gives five bags of silver, one two and one one.

[00:40:26] And when he returns, the person that was given five bags of silver now returns 10.

[00:40:31] The person who was given two returns four.

[00:40:33] The person who was given one did nothing with it and just buried it.

[00:40:36] But what I find fascinating is that Jesus says exactly the same thing to the person who produces 10 to the person who produces four.

[00:40:45] Well done, good and faithful servant.

[00:40:48] Enter into the joy I've prepared.

[00:40:50] Let's celebrate.

[00:40:51] So I believe how we choose to live now and how we choose to use our gifts rather than thinking, well, she's more gifted than me.

[00:40:58] So I'm not doing anything.

[00:40:59] No, you will only be judged by Christ.

[00:41:01] And it's called at the Bema seat, which is not about judgment.

[00:41:04] It's about rewards.

[00:41:05] There are rewards in heaven.

[00:41:07] And how we live our life for Christ right now will impact how we live eternally.

[00:41:12] So you have received a Dove Award.

[00:41:15] And so rewards, there's something that all bound up with that with crowns.

[00:41:23] What is that?

[00:41:24] Yeah, there's different crowns for different things.

[00:41:26] There's crowns will be given to those who spent their whole life leading other people to Jesus.

[00:41:30] There will be crowns given to those who have been martyred for their faith.

[00:41:33] But the thing that I think is amazing is when we stand before Jesus, everything we did will be shown.

[00:41:39] And it says some of it will burn up because there was nothing really of value.

[00:41:42] Will you still go to heaven?

[00:41:43] Absolutely.

[00:41:44] But for those who have taken this seriously and said, Lord, use my life, then there will be gemstones.

[00:41:50] And I think that we will be able to then cast our crowns at the feet of Jesus.

[00:41:55] What a gift to be able to give him a gift.

[00:41:58] So our crowns are not really awards like the Dove Award.

[00:42:02] They are rewards.

[00:42:04] And they're not for us to puff us up.

[00:42:07] No, absolutely not.

[00:42:08] But what a joy to think after everything that Jesus has done for us, to think that we can look and see the tangible proof that it mattered in heaven.

[00:42:17] But then I think we'll want to cast them at his feet.

[00:42:21] Ladies and gentlemen, you've gotten a taste of this book.

[00:42:25] And I recommend that you go to pointofview.net and click through or you can go to Sheila Walsh's, SheilaWalsh.com.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] And she mentioned that's probably a good thing to do right now.

[00:42:36] Considering the timing, the book comes out in bookstores next week.

[00:42:40] And Sheila, we wish you all the best for it because it's obviously going to be an influential book and change lives.

[00:42:46] Thank you so much for joining me today and spending an hour talking about it.

[00:42:50] I have loved talking to you.

[00:42:52] You're just lovely.

[00:42:53] Well, you are too.

[00:42:54] And ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us today.

[00:42:56] I'm sorry I couldn't get to all the calls.

[00:43:00] But there's a lot here.

[00:43:01] So you can get more by reading the book.

[00:43:04] And thank you so much, Steve, for everything you did to get the program ready.

[00:43:07] Also, you too, Megan.

[00:43:09] Ladies and gentlemen, have a wonderful evening.

[00:43:10] The Bible tells us not to worry.

[00:43:14] And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:43:19] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry.

[00:43:23] God gives us a next step.

[00:43:26] He says we need to pray.

[00:43:28] But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:43:32] And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation.

[00:43:43] Each week, you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans, along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:43:53] We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:44:01] Will you commit to pray for America?

[00:44:05] Go to pointofview.net.

[00:44:09] Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe.

[00:44:13] Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:44:17] Click on the Pray for America banner.

[00:44:20] Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America.

[00:44:27] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.