Point of View October 16, 2024 – Hour 1 : Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] Thank you for joining me. We're going to come back to another very important topic that we've discussed before, and that is the whole issue of how to engage in a civil manner with people with whom we disagree.

[00:00:32] The whole idea of difficult conversations certainly is something that we've tried to address in a number of different formats.

[00:00:39] And this new book out called Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel really help us know how to discuss controversial topics with love and kindness.

[00:00:51] It is written by our good friend Dr. Michael Brown who is the president of Ask Dr. Brown Ministries, also the president of the Fire School of Ministry, author of more than 40 books,

[00:01:01] has in many cases served as an adjunct professor or visiting professor at seven leading seminaries, been involved in various debates.

[00:01:09] Of course, you probably know him as well from his daily talk show, The Line of Fire.

[00:01:15] And Dr. Michael Brown, welcome back to Point of View.

[00:01:17] Always good to be with you, Kirby. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:20] Well, let's start out with something pretty simple, and that is your first chapter really, I think, was an illustration of why we need this.

[00:01:27] And that is a pastor says, they sound like us.

[00:01:30] And one of the things we have discussed in the past is if you get involved in the culture war, you begin to dehumanize the people with whom you disagree.

[00:01:39] You begin to not realize that even if they bring a fair amount of, if I can use the word fire, since that's certainly something you talk about so often,

[00:01:48] or really a great deal of emotion to the conversation, at the same time, they really, in some cases, are very much more like us.

[00:01:56] And that's one of the revelations you begin the book with.

[00:01:59] Yeah, and it's a conversation I had with a younger pastor.

[00:02:02] He's about 40 years old.

[00:02:04] I've been a mentor to him for about 10 years.

[00:02:07] And he's very involved politically.

[00:02:09] They evangelize.

[00:02:11] They feed the poor.

[00:02:12] They do all those things.

[00:02:13] But they also believe they should have an impact in the political realm.

[00:02:17] And one of his congregants was a state representative in Texas and was working hard to outlaw the general mutilation and surgical castration of minors,

[00:02:28] the transitioning of minors.

[00:02:30] And it was a pitched battle in the local houses of Congress.

[00:02:34] And ultimately, our side came out on top saying, oh, this is something not to be done to children.

[00:02:40] Well, subsequent to the event and the passing of the bill, he got online and started to go to some of the pages of the people who were on the other side.

[00:02:50] And he said, Dr. Brown, they sound just like us.

[00:02:53] It's the same rhetoric.

[00:02:54] We've got to save the children.

[00:02:56] This is for the children.

[00:02:58] We're saying, no, we've got to save the children.

[00:03:00] And they're saying, if you don't let them have these surgeries, they're going to commit suicide.

[00:03:04] And we say it's medical malpractice to do this, to remove the healthy breasts of a 14-year-old girl because she's confused about her gender.

[00:03:11] And they say, no, it's medical malpractice to withhold them.

[00:03:14] So it was an eye-opener.

[00:03:17] But that's what I had been wanting him to do was to see the other side, to realize, okay, you do have people with a demonic, destructive agenda.

[00:03:27] I understand that.

[00:03:28] You have people on different sides of the issues from us that have an ugly agenda, that hate God, that hate the gospel, that hate our values.

[00:03:36] But plenty others, they sound like us.

[00:03:40] They really think this is the right thing, the best thing, even on abortion issues and other things.

[00:03:45] They're genuinely convinced as caring human beings, as caring parents, as concerned citizens, that this is for the best.

[00:03:53] And most of the time, we sit in our safe little echo chambers, right?

[00:03:58] I post something to my people on social media, and they cheer me on, Dr. Brown.

[00:04:02] You're so courageous.

[00:04:04] And yes, and amen.

[00:04:05] And we never even listen to the other side.

[00:04:08] And we end up demonizing each other instead of listening to each other because ultimately, I want to help those people.

[00:04:13] I want to reach those people.

[00:04:15] I want to engage them and change their hearts.

[00:04:18] That's the best way to get lasting changes in the laws.

[00:04:21] But it's costly to do it.

[00:04:23] Again, this is a new book that just came out this month.

[00:04:26] So you probably can find it in your local bookstore.

[00:04:28] But if not, of course, we have a link so that you can obtain it as well.

[00:04:31] Published by Chosen, which is a division of Baker Publishing House.

[00:04:35] Twelve chapters, but the first nine are what we're going to focus on first.

[00:04:38] And then the last three, how to have a difficult conversation on abortion, then on LGBTQ, and on race, and then a conclusion on an unstoppable formula.

[00:04:49] But again, what you're talking about is the importance of seeing the other side's humanity.

[00:04:54] One of the other points you make, and it's a good one, is that we should recognize that we have blind spots.

[00:05:02] And so one of the techniques I've always talked about, and I know you do as well, is that if you go to the book of James, it says we should be what?

[00:05:09] Quick to listen, slow to speak.

[00:05:12] Because sometimes as we're listening, they'll point out something we'd never thought about.

[00:05:16] They'd point out maybe a blind spot we have.

[00:05:19] Or most importantly, even if they're completely wrong and we're completely right, sometimes that does happen.

[00:05:24] At least we could at least understand where they're coming from.

[00:05:27] But we do have blind spots, don't we?

[00:05:29] Yeah, I use in the book the example of John Newton, the infamous slave trader who then has a radical conversion experience, writes Amazing Grace, becomes a tremendous abolitionist.

[00:05:41] But he came to faith and was still captain of a slave ship for several years and ultimately got out of it for health, economic reasons, not out of conviction.

[00:05:52] And he said if he had been a better Christian, he would have gotten out earlier.

[00:05:56] But he said that it didn't come up because this was the custom of the day.

[00:06:01] This was the norm.

[00:06:02] Like we look back at people who lived in the days of slavery or segregation and say, how could you possibly call yourself Christians?

[00:06:10] But it was the norm and seemed to have biblical support and things like that.

[00:06:15] So often we are much more limited by our culture, by our upbringing, and we don't even realize it.

[00:06:24] And you know something that's really fascinating, when you travel outside of America, realize that the American way is not the only way to do things.

[00:06:30] And that sometimes we think we have the Christian value and people look at us like, what are you talking about?

[00:06:36] I was listening to a book, really fascinating.

[00:06:40] It was about reading the Bible through non-Western eyes.

[00:06:44] And it was one of the authors had been a missionary in Indonesia.

[00:06:48] And he had Christians that he was teaching in a school.

[00:06:51] And he gave them multiple choice tests.

[00:06:54] And they turned it back in and some people left answers blank.

[00:06:58] And he said to them, why don't you leave it blank?

[00:07:00] At least take a guess, right?

[00:07:02] You get a chance of getting it right.

[00:07:03] And they were mortified.

[00:07:04] They said, but then that would give a false impression that we actually knew the answer.

[00:07:09] And that would be dishonest.

[00:07:11] So I used to enjoy watching Hannity and Combs.

[00:07:15] I didn't watch it often.

[00:07:16] But I enjoyed it because Hannity would lay out his opening argument.

[00:07:20] I think, man, Combs has nothing to say here.

[00:07:22] And then Combs would come back.

[00:07:24] I thought, no way Hannity has an answer for this.

[00:07:26] And then Hannity have an answer.

[00:07:27] I thought, that's how I can learn.

[00:07:29] That's how I can learn by hearing it fleshed out.

[00:07:32] But sometimes, though, we're too insecure in our own views to do it.

[00:07:36] We don't dare have them challenged because we're not that sure ourselves.

[00:07:41] Well, again, we'll take a break and come back and continue the conversation.

[00:07:45] That piece on John Newton.

[00:07:46] Very good.

[00:07:47] I would encourage you to read that if you get the book because it reminds you of, again, how we can be culturally captive, even if we're saved in our heart.

[00:07:55] Also, I'd love some of the verses you have.

[00:07:57] For example, Psalm 18, but who can discern their own errors?

[00:08:01] Forgive my hidden faults.

[00:08:03] Keep your servant also from willful sins.

[00:08:06] May they not rule over me.

[00:08:08] Then I will be blameless, innocent of great transgression.

[00:08:11] There's a great psalm, and there's some others in there as well, about our blind spots.

[00:08:15] But we'll reach out after the break and talk about what it means to reach out.

[00:08:20] We'll talk a little bit about this idea of total honesty.

[00:08:22] Of course, the biblical admonition we see in the book of Romans to overcome evil with good and a variety of other issues.

[00:08:30] And then we will actually take the time to apply this to at least three different contentious issues.

[00:08:36] All of that in the book, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:08:40] We'll continue our conversation with Dr. Michael Brown right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:03] You know, when I talk about the polarization in this country, I'm often asked why there is so much hostility towards Christians.

[00:09:10] We are often the greatest source of ministry and encouragement in the community.

[00:09:14] In his book, Christians in a Cancel Culture, Joe Dallas devotes a chapter to this question about hostility towards Christians.

[00:09:21] You can summarize his excellent discussion with three words that all begin with the letter C.

[00:09:26] The first is convenience.

[00:09:28] Whenever truth is told, someone is inconvenienced.

[00:09:31] Former worshipers of the goddess Diana were upset when the gospel was preached in Ephesus.

[00:09:36] The silversmith who made money selling shrines was negatively affected.

[00:09:40] Elijah's words to Ahab were an inconvenience to the king.

[00:09:44] And, of course, the teachings of Jesus were certainly troubling to the religious leaders of his day.

[00:09:49] He rebuked their hypocrisy, presented himself as a savior, and the way to salvation.

[00:09:55] The second is conscience.

[00:09:56] Presenting biblical truth can prick the conscience of unbelievers and carnal Christians.

[00:10:01] One example he cites are the accusers of the adulterous woman who were convicted of their own sins because that conviction can be found in both Christians and non-Christians.

[00:10:10] The third is conviction.

[00:10:12] It would be a mistake to assume that hostility towards biblical truth springs only from an inconvenienced agenda or a prick conscience.

[00:10:20] Saul of Tarsus had strong convictions.

[00:10:22] He persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

[00:10:27] Should we expect hostility?

[00:10:28] Jesus faced hostility, so we will likely face hostility as well as we present biblical truth.

[00:10:34] We should speak the truth in love and leave the rest to God.

[00:10:38] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on biblical reliability, go to viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:53] Viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Continue our conversation today with Dr. Michael Brown.

[00:11:06] I just mentioned we will open up the phones if you'd like to join the discussion a little bit later.

[00:11:10] 1-800-351-1212.

[00:11:13] Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel, How to Discuss Controversial Topics with Love and Kindness.

[00:11:18] And in one of your chapters, Michael, you do explain something that I'm sure many people have maybe been puzzled about.

[00:11:25] Certainly you are well known as an individual that has a Jewish background

[00:11:30] and certainly have done some debates with Orthodox rabbis and those kinds of things.

[00:11:35] But you're also known as an individual that has debated gay activists.

[00:11:40] And in Chapter 3, you talk about the fact that as we really came into the early part of the 21st century,

[00:11:48] all of us, and we were certainly talking about this on Point of View,

[00:11:51] were seeing the rise of homosexual activism and the idea of a gay theology.

[00:11:56] And that's where at one point you said, well, why should I be actually getting involved in this?

[00:12:02] I have a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literature.

[00:12:05] I don't have a degree in counseling.

[00:12:07] But nevertheless, you were willing to step forward and get involved.

[00:12:11] And in some respects, that provides a model for other listeners even today that say,

[00:12:16] well, should I really go and testify in front of the school board because I've got a concern?

[00:12:21] And the answer is yes.

[00:12:23] Yeah, a very big yes, a giant yes, in fact.

[00:12:27] So here's what happened.

[00:12:28] When God burdened me to begin addressing Jewish objections to Jesus and called me to debate rabbis,

[00:12:36] it made sense.

[00:12:37] I'm Jewish.

[00:12:38] My dad was a senior lawyer in the New York Supreme Court.

[00:12:41] I grew up in kind of a debating environment.

[00:12:44] As a brand-new believer, late 71, early 72, my dad brought me to talk to the local rabbi.

[00:12:51] So I was engaged from day one.

[00:12:52] I saw we didn't have materials to answer.

[00:12:55] It was my background, my degrees you mentioned in studies.

[00:12:59] So it made sense for me to do that.

[00:13:02] It's who I am.

[00:13:03] Who else is going to do it, right?

[00:13:04] Of course.

[00:13:05] But in 2004, when God really began to burden me about homosexual activism, and I saw already in 2004,

[00:13:13] once I surveyed the scene, that it was already the principal threat to freedom of religion, speech, and conscience in America.

[00:13:19] Way back then, it became clear the moment I stepped back and looked.

[00:13:22] I thought, okay, I know I'm called to controversy.

[00:13:25] I know I'm called to culture wars on some level.

[00:13:27] But you've got James Dobson in focus on the family doing a great job.

[00:13:32] You've got prophetic voices like Chuck Colson.

[00:13:34] You've got political advocacy groups like Tony Perkins and FRC.

[00:13:38] What do you need me for?

[00:13:40] I don't come out of homosexuality.

[00:13:41] I was a heavy drug user.

[00:13:42] I've got that testimony.

[00:13:43] But I don't come out of homosexuality.

[00:13:45] I've never had a particular burden to reach out to the gay, lesbian community.

[00:13:48] It's not my specialty background.

[00:13:50] And what I began to realize was nobody gets to sit this one out.

[00:13:54] This is going to be the issue that everybody talks about.

[00:13:58] Look, this was long before transgender activism was a big battleground between the presidential candidates.

[00:14:05] This was long before we were talking about whether it's okay to generally mutilate or chemically castrated minors who are gender confused.

[00:14:15] This was long before we were talking about trans-identified athletes, boys playing on girls' teams, etc.

[00:14:23] So it was just clear then no one gets to sit this out.

[00:14:27] And Dr. Al Mohler, well-known Southern Baptist leader, made it clear to pastors' leaders, the knock's going to come on your door.

[00:14:34] You are inevitably going to be asked the question, where do you stand on same-sex, quote, marriage?

[00:14:39] What's your view on these things?

[00:14:41] And that's the reality.

[00:14:43] Everyone is involved.

[00:14:44] Your kids are confronted with this in school.

[00:14:46] You have to deal with this as a pastor.

[00:14:48] Not just the agenda, but also people struggling, also people who are confused in their own lives.

[00:14:54] So this is the issue that we could not avoid.

[00:14:58] For me, though, my nature is more confrontational.

[00:15:01] Go out and debate.

[00:15:03] Take this on.

[00:15:04] You push me.

[00:15:05] I'll push back harder with truth.

[00:15:06] And what God had to do was break my heart for the people.

[00:15:10] Because I realized these are not just issues we're talking about, but people we're talking about.

[00:15:15] It's not just an agenda, but it's individuals for whom Jesus died who are loved by God.

[00:15:20] And many of them have been hurt by the church.

[00:15:23] Many of them have been taught that they themselves are an abomination because of their attractions.

[00:15:28] And the formula that God laid on my heart in early 2005 was reach out and resist.

[00:15:35] Reach out to the people with compassion.

[00:15:38] And I realized many of them are very sensitive.

[00:15:40] They've been hurt.

[00:15:41] They've been rejected by church, family.

[00:15:43] I may think I'm being sensitive, and it may be off-putting to them.

[00:15:47] I'm going to need real compassion.

[00:15:48] And then resist the agenda with courage.

[00:15:52] And that I knew from some of my colleagues that took stands here.

[00:15:55] You will be vilified.

[00:15:56] You'll be attacked in the most profane ways.

[00:16:00] It's going to cost you and your ministry.

[00:16:01] But that's been what we've sought to live by.

[00:16:04] Reach out to the people with compassion.

[00:16:07] Resist the agenda with courage.

[00:16:08] Hence the title of the book, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:16:13] I love your line there.

[00:16:14] Of course you say that.

[00:16:15] No one gets to sit this out.

[00:16:17] And again, this idea of reaching out, for those of you taking notes, to the people with compassion,

[00:16:23] but resist the agenda with courage.

[00:16:25] But that kind of leads to the next section, because then you talk about, even when total honesty hurts, love tells the truth.

[00:16:33] And, of course, we've just been talking about LGBTQ.

[00:16:35] But here now you focus on the issue of abortion.

[00:16:38] Of course, we're going to talk about some of the practical applications a little bit later.

[00:16:41] But you have now people talking about shout your abortion.

[00:16:45] I remember interviews years ago that Marlon Maddox did on this program with some of the individuals that were speaking back in the 1980s.

[00:16:54] And the abortion decision had only been about 10 years old.

[00:16:58] And even then they were saying, I had no idea.

[00:17:00] I thought that this decision would come down.

[00:17:03] And then people would maybe get some abortions quietly.

[00:17:07] But I never anticipated, first of all, people would be marching in the streets for abortion.

[00:17:13] And certainly nobody anticipated they'd be talking about shout your abortion.

[00:17:17] So sometimes, even when you speak the truth with love and grace and civility, the reaction is pretty intense, isn't it?

[00:17:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:17:27] I remember back in the 80s that we had students in a ministry school where I taught on Long Island.

[00:17:32] And some of them would share the gospel in front of an abortion clinic.

[00:17:35] And they tell me, you know, grandma with her grandkids in the car rolls down the window and starts cursing them out like a drunken sailor.

[00:17:44] And other friends began to say what's wild is almost every protest that comes against us, it's a coalition of atheists, Satanists, and gays and lesbians.

[00:17:57] It's all united against you for standing up for life.

[00:18:01] But it's understandably a tremendously sensitive subject.

[00:18:06] And you have to think of this.

[00:18:08] Think of a woman who's grown up in America in the last 50 years where Roe v. Wade was the law of the land.

[00:18:16] And that's the only thing I've known.

[00:18:18] The mother's grown up with that.

[00:18:19] The daughter's grown up with that.

[00:18:21] The mother's grown up with that.

[00:18:21] Grandchildren are being born into it.

[00:18:23] And now some legislators, some men are going to tell us what we can and can't do with our own bodies.

[00:18:31] And, you know, they're going to compare us to the Taliban in Afghanistan and things like that and these wicked fundamentalists.

[00:18:37] And then, of course, it is a spiritual battle.

[00:18:40] It is.

[00:18:41] The shedding of innocent blood is tremendously important in God's sight.

[00:18:44] So it's a spiritual battle.

[00:18:45] And it's very intense.

[00:18:47] The opposition is intense.

[00:18:48] The vilification is intense.

[00:18:49] And yet it's something also that we don't get to sit out because this is very important in God's sight.

[00:18:55] Well, just before we take a break, one of the other chapters, of course, is overcome evil with good.

[00:19:00] Romans 12, do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[00:19:04] But I want you to maybe set up and, of course, after the break, talk about behind the scenes in the culture wars because this is indeed a spiritual battle, isn't it?

[00:19:12] It is.

[00:19:13] And something that was very, very telling, and I talk about it in the chapter you mentioned, telling the truth,

[00:19:18] a call that I got from a Christian woman who had taken a job as a manager at a Planned Parenthood and called to ask if it was okay.

[00:19:28] And I give the transcript of a lot of that call.

[00:19:31] It was absolutely unbelievable.

[00:19:34] Once she started opening up behind the scenes as a Christian woman working in Planned Parenthood, what she saw, what she experienced, what the women who had abortions had to say afterwards.

[00:19:48] And thankfully, the day she called was the last day she ever worked there.

[00:19:51] But that was an incredible story.

[00:19:54] She asked for her opinion.

[00:19:55] I spoke the truth to her in love.

[00:19:57] But what she shared was absolutely eye-opening.

[00:19:59] We're going to take a break.

[00:20:00] When we come back, we'll talk about that, kind of look behind the scenes of the culture war.

[00:20:04] And then there is a very telling chapter about hijacked by demonic forces.

[00:20:10] And, of course, you have seen some of the video.

[00:20:13] Matter of fact, there's one video of an individual that graduated from Master's Seminary, which is John MacArthur Seminary.

[00:20:18] And he is a pastor in Franklin, Tennessee and has been making the rounds.

[00:20:23] So we're going to talk about some of that as well.

[00:20:25] And then we'll get into some of the practical application because what I think is so helpful about the book is great theory and then great practical information on how to have a difficult conversation on issues like abortion, LGBTQ+, as well as race relations.

[00:20:43] And all of it is part of a book I highly recommend by Dr. Michael Brown.

[00:20:47] It just came out this month, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel, How to Discuss Controversial Topics with Love and Kindness.

[00:20:55] If you'd like to know more about Dr. Michael Brown, of course, we have a link to his website there, which you can find.

[00:21:01] And then, of course, you also have information about the book in case you'd like to get it in a paperback or Kindle.

[00:21:07] It's all available at our website at pointofview.net.

[00:21:10] Let's take a break.

[00:21:11] We'll come back and kind of peel back the veneer and talk about what's going on behind some of these culture wars and even how some of this has been hijacked by demonic forces.

[00:21:25] A lot to look forward to.

[00:21:26] We'll talk about that right after this.

[00:21:31] The Bible tells us not to worry.

[00:21:34] And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:21:38] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry.

[00:21:44] God gives us a next step.

[00:21:46] He says we need to pray.

[00:21:48] But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:21:53] And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement,

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[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Thank you for being with us.

[00:23:14] Continuing as we talk about this book, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel, by Dr. Michael Brown.

[00:23:20] Let me just mention that, of course, as you might always expect, on our website, pointofview.net,

[00:23:26] we have a link to his various social media outlets.

[00:23:29] We also have a link to his website, thelineoffire.org.

[00:23:33] You can sign up to get the Frontline Newsletter.

[00:23:35] All sorts of great resources all right there on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:23:41] But, Michael, I think it's about time to say, okay, what's going on behind the scenes?

[00:23:46] And you have a chapter about hijacked by demonic forces.

[00:23:49] But earlier on, you even talk about in the book the fact that there are some things going on in the culture wars.

[00:23:55] Can you explain?

[00:23:55] Yeah, so if we look at abortion from the outside and we see the militant shout-your-abortion people,

[00:24:04] we see the women scratching at the doors of the Supreme Court during the congressional hearings for Brett Kavanaugh.

[00:24:11] And you just think, okay, these women, they're just baby killers.

[00:24:15] It's the spirit of Molech again.

[00:24:17] And it's just about greed.

[00:24:19] And for some, I'm sure it's very evil and very wrong.

[00:24:22] And I have no question that Planned Parenthood is driven by greed, that love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

[00:24:29] But often we forget the human side of things.

[00:24:32] And later in the book, when we lay out the conversations, I do my best to present heartbreaking accounts,

[00:24:40] agonizing accounts where you could really see why someone says abortion is the compassionate good thing and it's the right thing.

[00:24:48] Well, let's go a little deeper there.

[00:24:50] I get a call from this woman, anonymous caller, working at a Planned Parenthood as a Christian.

[00:24:58] And she said, you know, her friend said, look, it's okay, you need the money.

[00:25:02] She was a single mother at that point.

[00:25:04] And you're not actually involved in the abortions.

[00:25:07] You're just working in the front, manager receptionist and things.

[00:25:10] So she asked about it, and I told her categorically no, why it was wrong, why she couldn't work there.

[00:25:16] Gave her all the reasons.

[00:25:17] And then she began to open her heart.

[00:25:19] She asked if God could still forgive her.

[00:25:21] I assured her he would if he could.

[00:25:23] And then she said, you know, even though you're not actually involved in the abortions, they cross-train you.

[00:25:29] And they want you to just see everything happening in the clinic.

[00:25:33] And she said they brought me in the back and showed me what they called POC, talking about behind the scenes.

[00:25:39] The products of conception.

[00:25:41] And she starts sobbing.

[00:25:42] She said, it's babies, it's eyes, it's legs, it's arms, it's babies.

[00:25:47] She's sobbing on the phone.

[00:25:49] And then I asked her, okay, you know, you hear all the shout your abortion and celebrate and comedians making jokes about their abortions and things like that.

[00:25:58] And she said, well, she said it's not like that.

[00:26:01] People won't really talk when they leave.

[00:26:03] The parents, grandparents will come with the daughter or the wife.

[00:26:07] They said they're kind of heavy hearted when they leave.

[00:26:09] And she said they have journals in the back.

[00:26:12] So when the women wake up from the abortion, they can write down what they're feeling.

[00:26:16] She said it's horrific.

[00:26:18] It's terrible what they're writing down.

[00:26:20] And you wonder, I wonder if some of the shouting is to cover the pain.

[00:26:25] Right.

[00:26:25] But then that reminds us, when we talk about the evil of, quote, baby killing, we have people listening.

[00:26:31] We have Christian women listening.

[00:26:32] We just ripped open a wound for them again.

[00:26:35] Because they had an abortion years ago.

[00:26:37] They know they're forgiven.

[00:26:38] But they hear us talking and it rips open a wound.

[00:26:41] Many pastors don't like to talk about abortion because they know women in their churches had abortions in the past.

[00:26:48] And they don't want to hurt them.

[00:26:49] What we do is both.

[00:26:50] We address the evil.

[00:26:52] We address the wrong.

[00:26:54] And then we minister to those who've had abortions.

[00:26:57] And those who are not Christians say there is a way to get rid of the guilt.

[00:27:01] And that is through the blood of the cross.

[00:27:03] And you can start a brand new life in obedience to God.

[00:27:06] But again, if we only demonize those we differ with rather than humanize them,

[00:27:12] we miss these opportunities to reach out.

[00:27:15] And Kirby, I don't have formal training in debating or apologetics.

[00:27:20] It was on-the-job training from early on being saved and meeting rabbis and having no choice.

[00:27:27] But one of the principles I realized, okay, if you're going to debate dialogue,

[00:27:32] you at least have to understand what the person is saying.

[00:27:34] So a good way to make sure of that is to say, do I really understand this is your position?

[00:27:38] And put it in your own words.

[00:27:39] Okay, now we're good.

[00:27:40] But what was really important, very costly, if I want to address someone rightly,

[00:27:46] I have to feel the weight of their objection.

[00:27:50] Right.

[00:27:50] Which means I have to get out of my comfort zone and try to see the world through their eyes.

[00:27:56] And when I do, now my answer can have substance and weight.

[00:28:00] But it's costly and painful to do.

[00:28:02] But it's ultimately a Jesus kind of thing because you get in someone else's shoes.

[00:28:07] You can have genuine love for them and now really reach out to help.

[00:28:11] You know, we've had Sean McDowell on because he has a new book out as well.

[00:28:14] And he says a different way.

[00:28:15] But again, you would agree with this.

[00:28:17] And that is so often where even in our discussions or debates have kind of a straw man argument.

[00:28:23] And what you need to do, as you're saying, is to have a steel man argument.

[00:28:27] What is their best argument?

[00:28:28] Where are they coming from?

[00:28:30] What are they trying to suggest?

[00:28:32] And again, you do have a chapter which I thought was so appropriate because it is, again,

[00:28:37] enrolling in Shared Humanity 101 to recognize that individuals didn't set out to hold to that viewpoint.

[00:28:44] There may have been something that triggered them in one way or another that caused you to understand that.

[00:28:50] But as you said, you sort of had on-the-job training.

[00:28:54] But one of the things you had is just the ability to think critically.

[00:28:57] And I think one of the things we want to try to communicate on Point of View,

[00:29:02] and I know you have been trying to communicate it on your radio program and others,

[00:29:06] is to teach people how to have critical thinking skills and to have discernment

[00:29:11] because it's going to get real confusing to individuals if they don't use logic, rationality,

[00:29:18] and instead come to every issue just simply thinking about it in an emotional way.

[00:29:24] Yeah, and it's very easy to get emotional, and we know how to push one another's buttons.

[00:29:29] We get triggered ourselves.

[00:29:32] And again, when you quoted from James 1, so slow to anger, quick to hear, quick to –

[00:29:41] so slow to anger and slow to speak, but quick to listen.

[00:29:45] We often get that turned around.

[00:29:47] Yes.

[00:29:48] So when I got saved, I had a horrific temper, and I realized I had to master that.

[00:29:55] I meditated on verses in Proverbs about the dangers of being hot-headed.

[00:29:59] I would meditate on 1 Corinthians 13 and the qualities of genuine love and pray those for myself

[00:30:05] because my nature was to be confrontational, to be contentious.

[00:30:09] Then you add in a bad temper.

[00:30:11] And look, you know if we're dialoguing with someone, even if you have the right position,

[00:30:16] if you get nasty, if you lose your temper, if you're not kind to that person,

[00:30:21] you're going to drive them away, and you're also going to hurt your cause for those watching.

[00:30:26] And that's what we have to remember.

[00:30:27] Our social media pages, our interactions, people are watching.

[00:30:32] Proverbs 15.1 remains true, that a soft answer turns away wrath.

[00:30:37] A harsh word stirs up strife, and sometimes all we want to do is get attention,

[00:30:42] and there's so much more heat than light.

[00:30:45] It doesn't help.

[00:30:47] And you mentioned a couple of times the chapter titled about hijacked by demonic forces.

[00:30:52] Even this is important because you look at an antifa.

[00:30:56] You think evil, plain, simple, evil.

[00:31:00] You look at the extreme of BLM, Black Lives Matter,

[00:31:03] not the affirmation that every black life matters, of course,

[00:31:06] but the BLM movement and its Marxist ideologies.

[00:31:09] You say evil.

[00:31:10] Okay, I agree.

[00:31:11] But when you talk to people more deeply,

[00:31:14] you find out that many of them care about the underdog.

[00:31:17] Many of them care about justice.

[00:31:20] Many of them want to make things right,

[00:31:22] but their right attitudes have been completely hijacked by demonic forces.

[00:31:28] If we can see through that,

[00:31:31] if we can see past the ugly, wrong exterior,

[00:31:35] we have a better chance of reaching them.

[00:31:37] And someone that went through the 60s, the counterculture revolution,

[00:31:40] that's when I became a heavy drug user.

[00:31:42] What do you look back at?

[00:31:43] You see sex, drugs, rock and roll, Eastern religion, rebellion.

[00:31:46] It was all there.

[00:31:47] But in the midst of it, we were looking for a better world.

[00:31:51] We were disillusioned by the Vietnam War.

[00:31:53] We were unsettled by all the assassinations.

[00:31:56] We didn't buy into the American dream.

[00:31:58] We thought there's got to be more.

[00:32:00] And we were asking the right questions,

[00:32:02] but they got hijacked by the flesh, by demonic forces,

[00:32:06] and we gave way to sin.

[00:32:07] But that's why so many of us got saved in the Jesus people movement.

[00:32:11] Ah, this is what we're actually looking for.

[00:32:14] So I look at a Gen Z, which is so wrong on so many issues.

[00:32:19] You know, a Gen Z survey a few months back indicated that over half said that

[00:32:24] Israel should be ended and given to Hamas.

[00:32:27] Think, what in the world?

[00:32:29] And overwhelmingly identify with LGBTQ issues and people.

[00:32:34] But the strength of Gen Z is tremendous empathy,

[00:32:38] that they really side with the outsider, the one that's marginalized.

[00:32:42] They side with them, but they don't have a biblical worldview,

[00:32:46] biblical foundations, a larger view of right and wrong

[00:32:50] and where society is going.

[00:32:51] They come out on the wrong side.

[00:32:53] Maybe I could reach them with their heart for empathy,

[00:32:56] but show them that God's kingdom ways are the real way to accomplish what they desire.

[00:33:01] We're going to take a break, but let me just mention these last three chapters,

[00:33:04] each one how to have a difficult conversation on abortion.

[00:33:07] And we've sort of covered that,

[00:33:09] but it has a great summary of the issues and then questions to ask.

[00:33:12] So I thought just real quickly, we'll jump into the other two,

[00:33:16] and that is how to have a difficult conversation on LGBTQ

[00:33:20] and how to have a difficult conversation on race relations.

[00:33:23] And each one of those chapters ends with a very good summary of the key issues,

[00:33:29] possible responses, and questions to ask.

[00:33:31] Some very great resources that are available in this book,

[00:33:35] Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:33:37] We'll spend a few more minutes with Michael Brown right after these important messages.

[00:33:41] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] Back for a few more minutes with Michael Brown.

[00:34:03] Again, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:34:05] I thought we'll have a difficult conversation about LGBTQ+.

[00:34:09] And before we get into that, one of the things I appreciate you mentioning

[00:34:13] is something I talked about last week when I was speaking to these second-year students

[00:34:17] at a Bible school on the issue of homosexuality and transgender,

[00:34:21] that there really is an internal debate between LGB and T and Q.

[00:34:28] And you even quote Andrew Sullivan, who's written about that.

[00:34:31] And I think it's important for people to realize that sometimes when you see the reaction

[00:34:36] to Christians about the transgender issue, there's an equal kind of interaction,

[00:34:42] almost civil war, even within the so-called broad homosexual movement, isn't there?

[00:34:47] Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:48] In other words, the fact that someone says,

[00:34:51] I've always felt same-sex attracted as far back as I can remember,

[00:34:54] so in their mind they were born this way, and hey, how is it hurting anybody?

[00:34:59] I want to be able to walk down the street holding my partner's hand like you do with your spouse.

[00:35:03] And we love each other.

[00:35:04] We want to marry, spend the rest of our lives together.

[00:35:06] How is it hurting anybody?

[00:35:07] What's wrong with that?

[00:35:08] Okay, that's completely different than saying that a boy who identifies as a girl is actually a girl.

[00:35:15] They're two completely separate categories.

[00:35:18] And there are many gay activists.

[00:35:21] There's even an ex-Twitter group called Gays Against Groomers.

[00:35:27] They're very active on social media.

[00:35:29] And they're saying, we don't want this.

[00:35:31] We don't want children to be groomed.

[00:35:33] And we don't want children to be confused about their gender identity,

[00:35:37] and you're getting this all wrong, and we don't want to mutilate children.

[00:35:40] It's not only that.

[00:35:41] It's secular voices like podcaster Joe Rogan or atheist Richard Dawkins

[00:35:48] or author of Harry Potter, J.K. Rowling, or down the list, Bill Maher, another atheist.

[00:35:55] These left-leaning or strong left-wing people, some of whom absolutely oppose religious beliefs,

[00:36:02] dare speaking out against trans activism.

[00:36:05] The tennis great Martina Navicilova, herself an open lesbian,

[00:36:10] say male bodies don't belong in women's sports.

[00:36:13] But see, that's one of the things that we try to communicate.

[00:36:16] So in these chapters, the last three chapters, we really unpack things.

[00:36:20] And I do my best to present the other side as clearly and accurately as I can

[00:36:25] to the point that it should be troubling to a Christian.

[00:36:28] When you read it, you think, oh, that's painful.

[00:36:31] That's difficult.

[00:36:32] Okay, how do we respond then?

[00:36:34] And one of the things we show is there's a trajectory.

[00:36:38] I know you feel what you do in your own life doesn't affect anybody else,

[00:36:43] but we have seen laws affected.

[00:36:45] We have seen school curricula affected.

[00:36:47] We have seen larger society affected.

[00:36:50] There's a ripple effect.

[00:36:51] And we say, look, once you deviate from the norm of male, female, he created them,

[00:36:57] you do open yourself up to this.

[00:36:59] Once you deviate from males, for females, females, for males, marriage as God intended it,

[00:37:06] once you deviate from that, you're going to go in this direction.

[00:37:09] So I wrote a response to Andrew Sullivan, articulate, well-known gay blogger for many years.

[00:37:14] I said, you cannot separate the T and the Q from the LGB.

[00:37:18] And maybe you weren't trying to indoctrinate kids about their bodies,

[00:37:23] but you were certainly trying to indoctrinate them in terms of their own hearts and minds

[00:37:27] and what should be taught in schools and things.

[00:37:29] It's an inevitable trajectory.

[00:37:32] So let's understand.

[00:37:34] Let's recognize that your average person who identifies as gay and lesbian

[00:37:37] is not marching down the street half naked or three-quarters naked at a gay pride event,

[00:37:43] that most of them are not activists.

[00:37:44] Most of them are simply just trying to live their lives like everybody else and just fit in.

[00:37:50] And we have to understand that so that we can rightly respond.

[00:37:54] Let me just mention that those two points are really key, unpacking the issue of trajectory,

[00:38:00] because, of course, you and I, and, of course, Penodexter, Marlon Maddox,

[00:38:04] all the way back when he was broadcasting this,

[00:38:06] talked about the possible impact of legalizing same-sex marriage

[00:38:10] and normalizing homosexual relationships and all that.

[00:38:13] And the trajectory we find ourselves in now was something we were pointing to

[00:38:18] and you were pointing to decades ago.

[00:38:20] But then the other one is the idea of unpacking the point of law,

[00:38:24] because in some respects this isn't just changing the culture or changing cultural attitudes.

[00:38:30] It's changing the law, and that has an impact as well.

[00:38:34] So in some respects you have been so good at arguing all these points,

[00:38:39] but just in the few minutes we have remaining,

[00:38:41] let's see if we can talk about how people can use the book.

[00:38:44] Because, first of all, the first nine chapters really kind of take you through,

[00:38:48] and I've covered many of them, not all of them,

[00:38:50] to help you understand kind of how to think about this

[00:38:52] and maybe really begin to interact with some of the people around you

[00:38:57] that maybe have different points of view,

[00:39:00] and whether it's around a Thanksgiving table or just a conversation at a coffee house

[00:39:05] or in your own business or in your own family.

[00:39:08] But then, again, I think so practical you have how to have a difficult conversation

[00:39:13] about abortion, LGBTQ, and, of course, the issue of race.

[00:39:17] But the way in which people can use this book is certainly to read through it individually,

[00:39:21] but I think the way you've put it together with some of the questions,

[00:39:24] it could also be a small group study, couldn't it?

[00:39:27] Oh, 100%.

[00:39:28] And that's what the publisher asked me to do.

[00:39:30] Let's work hard at the end.

[00:39:33] Let's put at the end of these major chapters a summary of issues.

[00:39:37] So, you know, God made me this way.

[00:39:40] He's a God of love, and this is the love he's given me.

[00:39:43] I can't change.

[00:39:45] How do we respond to that?

[00:39:46] I've never been attracted to the opposite sex.

[00:39:48] Same-sex attraction has always seemed natural to me.

[00:39:51] I'm in a solid committed same-sex relationship.

[00:39:54] So are many others I know who are like me.

[00:39:56] I should be able to marry the person I love.

[00:39:58] Love is love, and you have the right to be with the one you love.

[00:40:01] So I list each of these, a bunch at the end of each chapter.

[00:40:05] Here's how we respond.

[00:40:07] And then, of course, at the end of each chapter, further discussion questions.

[00:40:11] There's even a chapter on how to deal with rejection.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:15] How to deal with persecution in terms of verbal, social ostracization.

[00:40:20] How to deal with that.

[00:40:21] Because some of us are thick-skinned, and we're kind of made for it.

[00:40:23] But most people, rejection hurts.

[00:40:26] It stings you.

[00:40:27] And ideally, here's what I'd suggest.

[00:40:30] That if you do it in a Bible study, in a small group, then have someone play the other side's advocate.

[00:40:37] Have them say, okay, I'm going to raise my question to you.

[00:40:40] I'm going to be that person.

[00:40:41] I'm going to be the pro-choice person.

[00:40:44] I'm going to be the pro-LGBT person or the person arguing that Christians are just bigoted and hateful people,

[00:40:51] and you don't believe in social justice.

[00:40:54] And then what you do is say, no, no, you still don't feel the force of the argument.

[00:40:58] That was your answer to me didn't really answer my question, so let's put it out again.

[00:41:03] And then together, like, oh, now we got it.

[00:41:06] Now we see where you're really coming from.

[00:41:09] And I think, you know, it's just like when you're studying for a test as a kid that you get the question on the one side

[00:41:14] and the answer on the other, and you hide the answer to see if you're getting it right.

[00:41:18] This is something you can do.

[00:41:19] Okay, let's look at the questions.

[00:41:21] Let's put them out there.

[00:41:22] How do you respond?

[00:41:24] And then maybe, ideally, if you have someone in the group that wants hell to that other perspective,

[00:41:29] they can say you're not getting it.

[00:41:31] You know, my wife Nancy, when we met at 19, she was a hardcore atheist.

[00:41:36] And even though she got saved at 19 and we'd been together enough, married 48 years,

[00:41:41] I still don't fully understand an atheist perspective because I've never been an atheist,

[00:41:46] as much as I've dialogued with atheists, debated, et cetera.

[00:41:49] So years back I was preparing to debate Professor Bart Ehrman on whether the Bible provided an adequate answer

[00:41:55] to the problem of suffering.

[00:41:57] And I told her I've got this really good argument.

[00:41:59] She goes, no, that doesn't work.

[00:42:00] I said, why not?

[00:42:01] An atheist would shred that immediately.

[00:42:03] I said, I don't get it.

[00:42:04] And then we'd talk.

[00:42:05] I said, now I get it.

[00:42:07] Now I can come up with a better argument.

[00:42:08] So it takes a little time, but boy, is it worth it.

[00:42:11] Again, the book is entitled Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:42:15] Michael Brown has been with us.

[00:42:17] And, of course, he needs to head on to his next activity, certainly his talk show.

[00:42:21] So I hope you will appreciate the fact that as we've been talking about this today,

[00:42:25] the culture wars are intensifying over the last couple of days and weeks.

[00:42:30] We've tried to give you some great information on how to have some difficult conversations.

[00:42:35] This one on how to discuss controversial topics with love and kindness.

[00:42:41] It is published by Baker Publishing House, a chosen book.

[00:42:45] And one last time, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel.

[00:42:48] Again, how to discuss these controversial topics with love and kindness so that you will be prepared to speak the truth and to speak it in love.

[00:42:57] And you're listening to Point of View.

[00:43:11] Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age.

[00:43:16] Well, today, there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:43:21] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information.

[00:43:32] Let me give you a suggestion to help with that.

[00:43:35] Visit pointofview.net.

[00:43:38] Look at the tabs across the top.

[00:43:40] Find the one named Viewpoints.

[00:43:42] Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news to identify those issues that you really need to know about.

[00:43:50] They boil things down in a brief summary.

[00:43:53] And then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved.

[00:43:57] Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints, you'll see exactly what I mean.

[00:44:04] You'll see the issues that we are covering right now.

[00:44:07] And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will, you can slide on over, enter your email, and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day.

[00:44:17] That's it.

[00:44:18] Take a minute now.

[00:44:20] Be informed.

[00:44:21] Pointofview.net.

[00:44:23] Click on Viewpoints.

[00:44:24] Point of View will continue after this.