Point of View October 15, 2024 – Hour 1 : Black Conservation Summit, Difficult Conversations Podcast

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. Thank you for joining me. It is the Tuesday edition of Point of View and we definitely have a packed show today. Going to spend some time in just a minute talking with our good friend Dr. Eric Wallace about the Black Conservatives Summit. A little bit later we're going to also be talking with Walter Kim who is the president of the National Association of Evangelicals has a podcast called Different and Difficult Conversations that we'll talk about.

[00:00:42] And then in the next hour we're going to talk about Gen Z Radio with a Gen Z individual that also produces a podcast that you will want to know about as well, the Self Evident Podcast. Of course then we'll get into some of the issues in the news, the issue of whether or not Kamala Harris has committed plagiarism, which I think is now well proven, has generated some real interesting comments and so we'll talk about that.

[00:01:07] CBS once again has been called out for deceptively editing some of the news, the first time it had to do with the interviews with Kamala Harris, this time having to do with the Speaker of the House, so we'll talk about that.

[00:01:20] But then we will, before we're all done today, talk about archaeology because in a classic case of life imitating art, archaeologists have found human skeletons and even a Holy Grail-like cup at Petra, which is where the final scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade were filmed.

[00:01:40] They discovered this unknown tomb containing 12 skeletal remains, grave goods, including a cup that looks a little like the Holy Grail, I'm sure it was not, and one very similar to actually the movie starring with Harrison Ford and Sean Connery.

[00:01:55] So we've got a lot of things to talk about.

[00:01:57] I always like to end with something a little bit interesting and lighthearted, and that is something that I think caught even the archaeologist off guard a little bit.

[00:02:06] But let's get to some very serious issues, and Dr. Eric Wallace is an individual who's been on the program with us before, holds postgraduate degrees in biblical studies,

[00:02:15] and actually was the first African American to earn a Ph.D. in biblical studies from what is now Union Presbyterian Seminary.

[00:02:22] It was Union PSCE back then.

[00:02:25] He's run for office, state senate, run for representative of the Congress and a number of other things.

[00:02:30] Began publishing what's called Freedom's Journal Magazine, which is an online political magazine.

[00:02:37] First organized the Black Conservative Summit back, I guess it was in 2013, so now 11 years later.

[00:02:44] He is the author of Kingdoms in Conflict, A Matter of Race, Faith, and Public Policy,

[00:02:50] which is a TV program which you can watch and also has been someone who has spoken quite a bit on things like critical race theory.

[00:02:58] Dr. Eric Wallace, welcome back to Point of View.

[00:03:02] Hey, thank you for having me, Kirby.

[00:03:03] Talk about the summit.

[00:03:05] I think some people may be familiar with it.

[00:03:07] I think some are hearing about it for the very first time.

[00:03:11] We do have a link so that people can not only watch some of the things that happened this time,

[00:03:17] but some of the other very significant speeches going all the way back to 2013.

[00:03:23] Yeah.

[00:03:26] So we just held our sixth.

[00:03:28] So we've been around for 11 years, but a couple of years we didn't do the summit.

[00:03:34] Okay.

[00:03:34] So we just started back last year doing the summit again.

[00:03:38] And we did it, and last year we had, you know, Larry Elder, Votie Bauckham,

[00:03:44] I'm trying to think of some of the folks, Ken Blackwell, Lieutenant Colonel Allen West,

[00:03:49] and we actually premiered the video Uncle Tom 2.

[00:03:53] Oh, yes.

[00:03:54] In that time.

[00:03:56] And it was a very, very nice turnout.

[00:03:58] We did it this year.

[00:03:59] We actually had our keynote speaker, actually more of a keynote interview.

[00:04:06] I didn't want to give a speech, but it was Senator Tim Scott.

[00:04:10] Yes.

[00:04:10] Who came out.

[00:04:11] I thought we mentioned that.

[00:04:12] Yeah.

[00:04:13] And, you know, a number of other pastors and some folks from Heritage Foundation came out and spoke.

[00:04:22] And it was a nice event, and looking forward to doing it again next year.

[00:04:29] The actual theme was Black America at a Crossroads, Cultural Marxism versus a Biblical Worldview.

[00:04:34] Right.

[00:04:35] And we wanted to challenge folks to understand, first of all, what a Biblical Worldview was and what cultural Marxism was.

[00:04:42] So, you know, Curtis Hill of Indiana, former Attorney General of Indiana, spoke.

[00:04:49] Corey Brooks, I don't know if you know the rooftop pastor or what they call him,

[00:04:52] because he sat up on the rooftop building, raising money to build a community center in the heart of Chicago's,

[00:04:59] one of the most troubled neighborhoods, good friend of mine, and a number of others who came out and spoke.

[00:05:07] And you can find one of the things that's really going viral is this discussion about pastors.

[00:05:14] We try and do this thing called the State of the Black Church in America.

[00:05:18] That's where I want to go next, because I know you spoke on that.

[00:05:20] Go ahead.

[00:05:21] Go ahead.

[00:05:21] Go ahead.

[00:05:22] So it's kind of gone viral.

[00:05:25] We put it up on YouTube.

[00:05:27] We've had over – I haven't checked today, but the last time I checked, it was 133,000 people that looked at it

[00:05:32] and left a couple thousand responses.

[00:05:37] Ninety-three percent said they liked it.

[00:05:40] We have a couple really negative ones on there.

[00:05:42] I can believe.

[00:05:45] But we're getting a reaction, and people are like – a couple of pastors are like, oh, man, I'm so glad to hear this.

[00:05:51] You know, I'm a pastor, and I thought I was – you know, I was out here by myself.

[00:05:55] Yeah, I was the only one.

[00:05:56] You know, I didn't know there were other pastors out here who felt the same way I do.

[00:05:59] So it really touched my heart, and I'm so glad that we persevered.

[00:06:04] We do this, because there are always some obstacles every time you're trying to do something like this.

[00:06:09] But we persevered through it, and looking forward to doing the next one.

[00:06:13] Let me just mention real quickly before we go to a break, and that is, first of all,

[00:06:16] we have a link so that you can go to freedomsjournalinstitute.org and then type all of that in.

[00:06:23] But you just simply can go to pointofview.net.

[00:06:25] As you scroll down, you will see that this is an incredible panel discussion, kind of a veritable who's who.

[00:06:32] The state of the black church in 2024 goes on for about 47 minutes, and you can, of course, scroll back and forth

[00:06:40] and hear from the different individuals.

[00:06:42] But, again, these are people that are bringing a different perspective.

[00:06:46] Most of them are in some pastoral ministry, or a few of them are looking from the outside in.

[00:06:53] I think you're going to find that very helpful.

[00:06:55] And then I might also mention some of the resources we have.

[00:06:58] I'll hold up this booklet here on racism, because this is the whole issue of how to address this issue of racial reconciliation.

[00:07:05] And that booklet, of course, is available through us here at Point of View, free of charge.

[00:07:09] I'll also hold up the one on critical race theory, since Eric Wallace is probably one of the best people to speak on that subject.

[00:07:15] But, again, I think what we are encouraging is for people, even if they could not attend the conference,

[00:07:22] you have videos going all the way back to 2013, 2014, 2015.

[00:07:28] Then, of course, you took a break.

[00:07:30] But then you have the ones from the last two years.

[00:07:32] And, again, kind of a who's who of individuals, many of whom we've interviewed on this program,

[00:07:38] some that we never have been able to interview, and, of course, yourself.

[00:07:41] And so if you're interested, I would encourage you to go to the website right now.

[00:07:46] If you have some time, you might want to watch one of those videos.

[00:07:49] And, of course, this one on the state of the church is very significant.

[00:07:54] But when we come back, I thought what we might do, Eric, is talk a little bit about, of course,

[00:07:58] what you learned from that issue of the state of the American church,

[00:08:01] but also go on to some of the other issues that you have been addressing as well,

[00:08:06] because that is something, for example, your best known, of course, for the TV show Kingdoms in Conflict.

[00:08:13] And at a time right now when we are encouraging people to go out and exercise their right to vote,

[00:08:19] you also recognize there are some issues that we need to address as well.

[00:08:23] So let's take a break, and if you would like to know more about the Black Conservative Summit,

[00:08:27] we're certainly going to come back and continue our conversation with Eric Wallace.

[00:08:31] But during the break, probably be a good time to go and check that out.

[00:08:34] It's one of the links we've provided on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:08:39] If you'd like to watch the videos, I would encourage you to do so.

[00:08:41] If you know somebody that would benefit from those videos, you might take the time to even send it to them.

[00:08:47] We'll be back right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:03] Yesterday I talked about the book The Sovereign Individual that decades ago predicted the death of the nation-state.

[00:09:08] To paraphrase Mark Twain, the rumors of the demise of the nation-state are greatly exaggerated.

[00:09:13] Governments may still exist and exercise their power,

[00:09:16] but we can see how the power and influence of some governments are in decline.

[00:09:20] And there are many reasons for this trend.

[00:09:22] First is geography.

[00:09:23] The information revolution has made it possible for many people to make a living online or working remotely.

[00:09:29] A factory has a more difficult time changing locations,

[00:09:32] though many have done so by even leaving the United States.

[00:09:35] By contrast, an individual participating in the cyber economy can pick up and leave a jurisdiction

[00:09:40] if taxes, regulations, or even climate is unfavorable.

[00:09:44] Second is the reality of a government monopoly.

[00:09:47] When we go into a store or a coffee shop, we expect customer service.

[00:09:51] But governments take us for granted and rarely treat us like customers.

[00:09:55] The authors use this example.

[00:09:56] If you went into a store to buy furniture and the salespeople took your money,

[00:10:01] but then proceeded to ignore your request and consult others about how to spend your money,

[00:10:05] you would quite rightly be upset.

[00:10:07] The fact that something like this happens in dealings with governments show how little control its customers actually have.

[00:10:13] A third reason, not mentioned in the book, is the sad reality that governments are broke.

[00:10:18] You could argue that the United States has $31 trillion passed broke.

[00:10:23] Put another way, the U.S. national debt is significantly more than the GDP,

[00:10:28] and there are a dozen other countries in the world with higher debt loads.

[00:10:32] This is not sustainable.

[00:10:34] Nation states are not dead, but most of them are dying.

[00:10:38] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:47] For a free booklet on biblical reliability, go to viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:54] Viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:59] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Back once again, we are privileged to have with us for a little bit longer Dr. Eric Wallace.

[00:11:08] If you'd like to know more about the Black Conservatives Summit, we have that link on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:11:14] And in that roundtable discussion, it's unfair to try to summarize 40-some-odd minutes of great conversation with the panelists,

[00:11:21] but can you give us maybe a few takeaways, Eric, that you picked up from that conversation that you had there?

[00:11:27] Well, again, the state of the black church and looking at, you know, people's lack of understanding of Scripture,

[00:11:40] I think, kind of came to the fore.

[00:11:42] I think one of the things I had thrown out there was the whole black church pact.

[00:11:49] You know, they had the convention here in the Chicagoland area, and they talked about, or during that time,

[00:12:00] the churches were talking about this black church pact, which talked about the three things they were interested in

[00:12:04] was gun violence, voter suppression, and mass incarceration.

[00:12:08] Now, as I started off, I tried to list off those three, and I forgot one of them.

[00:12:12] But we dig at a chance to talk about why are these the three issues when we've got problems with kids in the schools,

[00:12:20] when we've got, you know, abortion of black babies, and we've got the breakdown of the black family.

[00:12:26] We've got a number of hosts of other issues, and they're worried about gun violence,

[00:12:30] which is generally people trying to get rid of guns, voter suppression,

[00:12:35] which generally means they want that people want folks to have voter IDs,

[00:12:40] which most black people want people to have voter IDs.

[00:12:43] And in mass incarceration, most black folks who live in a black community, you know,

[00:12:47] generally you talk about crime.

[00:12:49] Most black people, most black criminals criminalize their own communities.

[00:12:54] Most white criminals criminalize their own communities.

[00:12:57] The same thing with Asians because that's where they live, right?

[00:12:59] And so they end up robbing and stealing from people who are around them.

[00:13:04] And so most black people, if you're a criminal, they want you to be incarcerated.

[00:13:07] So I don't understand.

[00:13:10] One of the questions to them was we don't understand why they're focusing on these other things.

[00:13:14] Yeah, and sometimes that's a distraction I might mention.

[00:13:17] Today we're going to do our action item on to stop non-citizen voting.

[00:13:21] We'll get to that in a little bit, but I just wanted to mention that one of our action alerts deals with that issue,

[00:13:27] and we would certainly want citizens to vote.

[00:13:30] We'd want non-citizens to vote.

[00:13:32] But somehow even saying that is voter suppression.

[00:13:35] So, again, who can figure?

[00:13:37] But that's the world we live in, isn't it?

[00:13:41] And so one of the things we talked about, not only that, but that people are falling in line because they're more concerned about the color of our skin.

[00:13:50] And so the left has been really good at painting the right and everything, really, that's not left as white supremacy.

[00:14:00] The number one issue for us is white supremacy.

[00:14:03] Not only other things, not employment, not family, not of these other what you call kitchen table issues that everybody's dealing with,

[00:14:12] it's white supremacy.

[00:14:13] And we reject that.

[00:14:16] Matter of fact, I think I mentioned in the time that I actually spoke, not on the panel, but before I kind of opened up the summit,

[00:14:28] actually I call it kingdoms in conflict.

[00:14:29] We follow the true king.

[00:14:31] And the question was anybody or the statement was anybody who puts, anybody, again,

[00:14:36] who puts their ethnicity ahead of their Christianity, it's idolatry.

[00:14:41] You cannot say my being an Irish American is more important than my being a Christian,

[00:14:46] or my being black is more important than my being a Christian.

[00:14:49] And that's what a lot of people have done in the black community.

[00:14:52] They've been told that somehow, of course, our current president actually said this,

[00:14:57] if you're not careful, they'll put you back in chains, which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of.

[00:15:03] And if you don't vote for me, you're not black.

[00:15:05] That's another one.

[00:15:06] Yeah.

[00:15:08] But there's no way.

[00:15:09] The 13th Amendment means that slavery was dealt a death nail and will never rise again, right,

[00:15:15] unless you're just going to ignore the Constitution.

[00:15:18] 14th Amendment gave us the right to vote.

[00:15:20] Oh, excuse me.

[00:15:21] 14th Amendment, I'm getting them mixed up now.

[00:15:24] One of them gives us the right to vote, and the other one gives us the right to full citizenship.

[00:15:27] So I guess it was full citizenship for 14th and then 15th was the right to vote.

[00:15:32] Right.

[00:15:33] And then you have civil rights legislation that took place.

[00:15:36] So nobody's turning back the pages to slavery or Jim Crow, for that matter.

[00:15:43] Let me come back to that because your theme for the Kingdoms and Conflict message was Luke 4,

[00:15:49] which is verses 1 to 13.

[00:15:51] Well, that's the temptation of Jesus.

[00:15:53] But talk about that because most people, if they have ever given a sermon on the temptation of Jesus,

[00:16:00] probably didn't take it in the direction you did.

[00:16:02] Can you explain?

[00:16:04] Well, the idea was trying to understand what's going on in the temptation.

[00:16:09] So as I studied it, the temptation not only looks back at what happened in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve,

[00:16:19] but it also looks at the temptation of the nation of Israel in the wilderness.

[00:16:25] So the question is, will the Son of God be tempted to disallow his father?

[00:16:36] Right.

[00:16:36] So Satan said, if you are the Son of God, turn this rock into bread.

[00:16:41] Well, trying to get him to succumb to his physical need and reject that and go after the food that –

[00:16:52] or turn the rock into bread and satiate, you know, fill his satiation for food,

[00:16:57] almost in the same way that Eve was tempted to eat of this fruit.

[00:17:01] And if you eat of this fruit, you know, all of a sudden you're going to be wise.

[00:17:04] You can have all this information.

[00:17:05] We get to the next one, you know, up on the – he shows them all the kingdoms, right?

[00:17:11] And he says, these will be yours.

[00:17:12] And I ask the question, well, what does Satan have to offer him?

[00:17:15] I mean, really?

[00:17:17] It's already been said he's going to take over his throne, the throne of David,

[00:17:23] and his kingdom will last forever, right?

[00:17:26] I mean, this stuff is already talked about in the first couple of chapters of Luke.

[00:17:30] So what does he have to offer?

[00:17:31] And what he has to offer is a shortcut.

[00:17:33] Here's a shortcut.

[00:17:34] If you just fall down and worship me, I'll give you all these kingdoms.

[00:17:37] And he doesn't even argue with them.

[00:17:39] No, you don't have all these kingdoms because the answer really is yes.

[00:17:43] Temporarily he has custody of all these kingdoms.

[00:17:46] Wow.

[00:17:47] But Jesus is the real king.

[00:17:49] Jesus is coming through his death, burial, and resurrection.

[00:17:51] He will take all of that over.

[00:17:53] And it's already been given to him.

[00:17:54] He just has to follow.

[00:17:56] And one thing I do regret, I didn't unpack it enough to let people understand what was being offered to him.

[00:18:03] He is going to go through literal hell to die for us, right, to be rejected, to be mocked, to be despised.

[00:18:12] You know how much that bothers us?

[00:18:14] I mean, he went through that and then had a crown of thorns put on his head.

[00:18:18] I mean, it was totally disrespected.

[00:18:19] And here was the creator of the universe, right, who's come here in flesh and bones, and his creation is totally dissing him and acting as like he's a piece of dirt.

[00:18:33] And he knew he would have to go through that, and he turns down Satan's offer and wholeheartedly accepts his destiny of the cross.

[00:18:44] And then lastly, the pinnacle where it tells him to jump off.

[00:18:48] Right.

[00:18:51] And he misuses scripture, which is what people do all the time these days.

[00:18:55] Right.

[00:18:55] He puts scripture out of context and then acts as though God is supposed to do what the scripture says, even though we're taking it out of context.

[00:19:04] And so, you know, Jesus then quotes another scripture.

[00:19:07] And each time, Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy.

[00:19:09] Yes.

[00:19:11] Which I think says something about the fact that we should be reading the Old Testament as well.

[00:19:15] Just about coming to a break, and I wanted to mention a couple of things.

[00:19:17] First of all, of course, we have the freedomsjournalinstitute.org where you can find that.

[00:19:23] You don't even have to remember all that because we have a link on the website.

[00:19:26] But if people would like to get the Freedoms Journal magazine, which is an online magazine, and maybe understand some of the issues we're talking about.

[00:19:35] And this isn't just for our African-American listeners out there.

[00:19:38] There's for everyone because you're dealing with things like multiculturalism, DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, critical race theory, and a variety of other issues.

[00:19:50] And if you would like to get a solid voice on some of those issues, that is certainly what you started quite a number of years ago.

[00:19:59] And it is something that is a resource that people can link to when they go to the website, can't they?

[00:20:05] Yes, they can.

[00:20:06] As a matter of fact, we've got older versions of it.

[00:20:08] It started out as a digital magazine.

[00:20:11] So the PDFs are there.

[00:20:12] Now it's more like a blog, if you will.

[00:20:15] We get articles.

[00:20:18] We post those, and people can read those.

[00:20:21] We have all the versions of Kingdoms and Conflict, the TV show that we did, the three seasons of that.

[00:20:27] We hope to get to our fourth season.

[00:20:28] Right.

[00:20:29] So there's a lot that's there.

[00:20:32] We also have an app, by the way.

[00:20:34] So people want to download it to their phone or their tablet for the iPhone, Android, for Fire.

[00:20:42] And there's one other.

[00:20:44] There's Google.

[00:20:44] There's one other.

[00:20:46] There are also TV apps as well.

[00:20:47] So you can actually watch this stuff on your big screen TV.

[00:20:52] Let me again mention that we do have a link to that website.

[00:20:54] And if you would like to have Eric come and speak for you, or if you'd like to know a little bit more about that,

[00:21:00] like to go in and do some research, that's the case.

[00:21:02] You could spend a long time watching some of those videos,

[00:21:05] but let me commend you a couple that we've already mentioned that you might want to pick out first.

[00:21:09] So, Eric, as always, appreciate the work that you're doing,

[00:21:12] and thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:21:14] Hey, thanks for having me.

[00:21:15] Appreciate it.

[00:21:16] Let me just mention, as we go to a break, we're going to get this a little bit later,

[00:21:19] we have a take action item today, and it's to keep non-citizens from voting.

[00:21:24] Well, there's a concept.

[00:21:25] We'll talk more about that right after this.

[00:21:31] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle,

[00:21:37] not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:21:41] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism,

[00:21:45] and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon.

[00:21:49] London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:21:55] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:22:01] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers.

[00:22:05] Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:22:09] It is truth for all of life.

[00:22:12] Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today?

[00:22:16] Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox

[00:22:21] when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:22:28] Every weekday in less than two minutes,

[00:22:31] you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:22:36] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now.

[00:22:41] Pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:22:45] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:03] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:11] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] Let's talk about difficult conversations.

[00:23:16] You know, right now in this polarized situation that we find ourselves in,

[00:23:21] sometimes we find ourselves playing whack-a-mole.

[00:23:24] We're trying to make some sense out of it and maybe trying to deal with a particular issue,

[00:23:29] as we just talked about a minute ago with Eric Wallace or others.

[00:23:32] And as a result, there's really a need to know how to give a better answer in the midst of differing opinions

[00:23:39] and know how to maybe engage in difficult conversations.

[00:23:42] In the past, we've had Dr. Darrell Bock on to talk about dealing with difficult conversations,

[00:23:48] but there is now a podcast we wanted you to know about.

[00:23:51] We have information about that on the website at pointofview.net.

[00:23:56] And to help us understand a little bit more about that,

[00:23:58] we go to Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals,

[00:24:04] became the president back in January of 2020,

[00:24:08] served as a pastor in Boston's historic Park Street Church,

[00:24:12] a church I've sat in many times when I was back in Connecticut and in Massachusetts,

[00:24:17] also had churches in Vancouver, Canada.

[00:24:20] He has served on the boards of Christianity Today and World Relief and many others,

[00:24:26] has his MDiv from Regent College at Vancouver,

[00:24:28] a place where I've actually taken some classes,

[00:24:30] and also from Harvard University.

[00:24:33] So, Dr. Kim, it is a delight to bring you back to the program.

[00:24:36] Point of view.

[00:24:38] Kirby, it's great to be on.

[00:24:39] Thank you for having me.

[00:24:40] Let's, if we can, maybe tell people a little bit about NAE.

[00:24:44] When I was living in Washington, D.C., I had a chance back then to work with Bob Dugan,

[00:24:50] who was head of the governmental affairs,

[00:24:52] later replaced by another individual I sometimes work with, Rich Seizek.

[00:24:56] And yet this has been a very significant organization

[00:25:00] and has also had very significant influence in the public policy arena.

[00:25:05] But give us some of the background of the NAE.

[00:25:08] Yeah, thanks for asking, Kirby.

[00:25:10] So we've been around since 1942, seeking to connect and represent evangelical Christians.

[00:25:17] There are 40 different denominations, various streams of evangelicalism,

[00:25:21] but also hundreds of other organizations that are a part,

[00:25:25] educational institutions, Christian colleges, seminaries,

[00:25:28] Christian humanitarian aid organization.

[00:25:32] In fact, I just had a conversation with Convoy of Hope,

[00:25:34] a member organization that's doing some fantastic relief work down in Florida

[00:25:40] and the Carolinas in the wake of the hurricanes.

[00:25:43] And so that's a part of our work.

[00:25:45] We also endorse and certify chaplains, all branches of the military, law enforcement.

[00:25:52] World Relief is our humanitarian aid organization working around the world,

[00:25:56] but also in refugee resettlement here stateside.

[00:25:59] And as you mentioned, we also are engaged in public policy issues,

[00:26:04] seeking to be the presence of Christ at a time where I think it's all the more important

[00:26:10] that faith has a robust witness in our society.

[00:26:14] Well, let's see if we can talk about the podcast for just a bit

[00:26:17] because that is the reason we wanted to focus on it.

[00:26:20] Let me just mention to our listeners that some of the series of interviews feature,

[00:26:26] well, people that we've had on the program like Jonathan Haidt and Derwin Gray

[00:26:30] and Caitlin Scheiss and Sean McDowell and many others.

[00:26:34] So there is a sense in which when you're oftentimes talking about,

[00:26:37] we were talking with Sean McDowell recently about his book,

[00:26:39] And the Stalemate, we've talked with Jonathan Haidt about his previous book,

[00:26:44] about The Coddling of the American Mind,

[00:26:46] and of course more recently his book, The Anxious Generation,

[00:26:49] and Caitlin Schleiss who talked about The Ballot and the Bible.

[00:26:51] Well, you're doing the same sort of thing,

[00:26:53] and it gives people a chance to begin to think about whether or not in this polarized culture

[00:26:59] we're just always going to return fire

[00:27:02] or whether we can find some ways to have a meaningful and civil dialogue.

[00:27:07] So explain that if you might.

[00:27:09] Yeah, I think we can all imagine a moment, whether it's a Thanksgiving meal

[00:27:13] or after a small group or during a small group or after church,

[00:27:16] decreasing the sermon or maybe in the workplace.

[00:27:18] You've alluded to this kind of whack-a-mole that we're playing right now,

[00:27:22] cultural and political social whack-a-mole,

[00:27:24] where we seem to be taking these verbal mallets at one another, family, friends.

[00:27:30] We are at a point where we see fractured relationships.

[00:27:33] And oftentimes it begins with a disagreement on some particular position,

[00:27:39] whether it's a policy position or some issue in society.

[00:27:43] But oftentimes underneath that, that's just the tip of the iceberg,

[00:27:48] that's a presenting issue.

[00:27:49] But underneath it are all sorts of concerns, fears, hopes, anxieties,

[00:27:55] as well as opportunities that are often missed when we don't recognize that the surface conflict

[00:28:02] really is about deeper issues.

[00:28:05] And so we wanted a series not just about positions.

[00:28:08] You know, there are plenty of places that we can figure out what is a biblical position,

[00:28:12] what is a God-honoring position.

[00:28:15] But the series is not so much about positions.

[00:28:18] It's about posture.

[00:28:19] What's the kind of posture we should be taking toward one another that would lead to civility?

[00:28:25] And again, I would say that from a Christian point of view, we would want civility.

[00:28:29] Sometimes people say we want tolerance.

[00:28:30] Well, tolerance has been so redefined.

[00:28:32] I think the word civility works better and just the idea that, in a sense, it's the golden rule.

[00:28:38] We want to be treating others as we would like to be treated.

[00:28:42] And I think it's kind of interesting because although I've had Dr. Jonathan Haidt on the program,

[00:28:46] he doesn't necessarily come from a biblical point of view,

[00:28:48] but he, along with many others, recognizes how polarized the culture is.

[00:28:54] And in your inaugural interview, you spent some time talking with him, just helping us understand maybe,

[00:29:01] and maybe you can give us some possible explanations for why we are so polarized today here in America.

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:09] Well, we wanted to spend some of the early episodes.

[00:29:12] There will be several episodes released over the course of many weeks.

[00:29:16] But we wanted to spend some of the early episodes in diagnostic mode,

[00:29:19] trying to understand what makes us tick and what is broken right now.

[00:29:25] And whether it's Jonathan Haidt making observations from social science or actually tapping into the science,

[00:29:33] we realize that it's really about God's design and the impact of the fall.

[00:29:37] So one of the observations that Jonathan Haidt made was we seem to be wired from the social science perspective to live in tribes.

[00:29:48] We want to be in community.

[00:29:50] Right.

[00:29:51] And the community is often defined by shared interests.

[00:29:55] And it's easy to develop a sense of community by defining who's not in the community.

[00:30:00] Now, that may be convenient for a moment and at times very important to figure out who's in and who's out.

[00:30:08] But over time, that could lead to situations where we begin to demonize those who are in the others,

[00:30:16] use fear in order to define who is against us to increase our sense of the tribal in-group affinities.

[00:30:26] But this is another way that science is just tapping into what we had long seen in Scripture,

[00:30:32] that God designed us for community.

[00:30:34] That's the positive thing.

[00:30:35] We're intended to live in families and networks of community, the church being the example of that.

[00:30:44] But when it goes awry because of the impacts of sin, we begin to demonize others.

[00:30:50] We begin to do the very work of instead of loving our enemy so that we can present Christ afresh,

[00:30:57] we begin to bludgeon our enemies creating these distances.

[00:31:01] That's why so much of the Scriptures is about in the New Testament,

[00:31:04] what does it mean to bridge the divide between Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female,

[00:31:10] to discover oneness in Christ.

[00:31:12] So I think we see science as confirming what Scripture has long said about the fundamental yearnings of humans,

[00:31:21] the fundamental design for us to be in community,

[00:31:24] and the fundamental fractures that sin and Satan would seek to produce,

[00:31:28] and that is the breaking down of our ability to connect with one another.

[00:31:32] You know, I think of Colossians 3 where it talks about there's neither Greek nor Jew,

[00:31:36] Jew, circumcised, uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free,

[00:31:40] but Christ is all and in all.

[00:31:43] You think about that, it's really breaking down a number of distinctions.

[00:31:47] First, national distinctions, Greek and Jew.

[00:31:50] Religious distinctions, circumcised and uncircumcised.

[00:31:53] Cultural distinctions, barbarian and Scythian.

[00:31:55] And even economic distinctions, slave or free.

[00:31:59] But again, sometimes we want to be in our tribe,

[00:32:02] which may protect us if we're in a dangerous area.

[00:32:06] As you have somebody coming up to you in the street,

[00:32:09] sometimes you have to make an instantaneous decision

[00:32:11] whether that person is going to shake your hand or do you harm.

[00:32:16] So I understand that there's a natural reaction

[00:32:19] when we see somebody we don't know or don't understand.

[00:32:22] But I think as Christians, we are to show that kind of Christ-like love.

[00:32:27] So what I want to do is take a break and when we come back,

[00:32:30] one of the things that Sean McDowell talked about in his book,

[00:32:33] and I know that's an upcoming podcast from his book,

[00:32:36] And the Stalemate, is for us to be, first of all, good listeners.

[00:32:40] After all, we should be quick to listen and slow to speak.

[00:32:44] I think we can find that in the Bible too.

[00:32:45] But also to maybe understand their argument

[00:32:48] and not make a straw man argument, but a steel man argument

[00:32:53] so we at least understand their position.

[00:32:55] So I thought we'll talk about how that is another principle we can apply

[00:33:00] in terms of these difficult conversations.

[00:33:02] And if you would like to give the podcast, we do have a link.

[00:33:06] It's nae.org.

[00:33:08] And then there's a link we provide,

[00:33:10] which has an introductory trailer that you can listen to first.

[00:33:14] And then, of course, you can begin to subscribe

[00:33:16] and receive some of these podcasts that are being put together

[00:33:20] by the National Association of Evangelicals.

[00:33:22] So, of course, we have a link to the NAE.

[00:33:24] We have a link to the difficult conversations.

[00:33:26] And most importantly, I hope that you will check out some of the work

[00:33:30] that Walter Kim and others are doing there

[00:33:32] at the National Association of Evangelicals.

[00:33:35] But we'll take a break, come back,

[00:33:36] and maybe see if we can discern a few more principles

[00:33:39] in how to handle these difficult conversations.

[00:33:42] We'll be right back.

[00:33:57] You're listening to Point of View,

[00:33:59] your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:02] For a few more minutes with Dr. Walter Kim,

[00:34:05] and then we'll go on to some other issues next hour,

[00:34:08] including Gen Z Radio.

[00:34:10] Just an opportunity to talk with a Gen Z organization

[00:34:13] and a group of individuals speaking to issues.

[00:34:17] And then we'll get back to some of the political issues.

[00:34:19] After all, we're in the midst of a political campaign.

[00:34:22] But Dr. Walter Kim with us a little bit longer,

[00:34:24] talking about difficult conversations.

[00:34:26] And I thought I'd jump ahead to Sean McDowell.

[00:34:29] I know that's probably an interview you have ready to come out in the future.

[00:34:33] But since we've done the interview with him on the book,

[00:34:35] End the Stalemate,

[00:34:37] I think one of the things he admitted is that sometimes

[00:34:39] when we are engaged in a discussion or a debate,

[00:34:42] and Josh McDowell, his father, and Sean McDowell,

[00:34:45] and I and many others do debates,

[00:34:47] I always try to, if I can,

[00:34:51] represent accurately the other person's position.

[00:34:53] And sometimes that takes some time to listen to them

[00:34:57] if it's in a dialogue,

[00:34:58] or to read them ahead of time before a discussion or a debate.

[00:35:02] And there is a tendency, I think,

[00:35:05] Walter Kim, for the fact that sometimes we give a straw man argument

[00:35:08] instead of a steel man argument.

[00:35:10] We tend to ridicule or make fun of that viewpoint

[00:35:13] instead of just trying to understand

[00:35:15] the reason they come with such anger and frustration

[00:35:19] and such conviction.

[00:35:21] And I think that's a key to handling these difficult conversations,

[00:35:25] don't you think?

[00:35:26] Absolutely.

[00:35:27] You've alluded to the verse in James,

[00:35:30] be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry,

[00:35:33] because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.

[00:35:37] And, you know, there's a certain logic to it.

[00:35:39] If we're quick to listen, really paying attention,

[00:35:41] we will be slow to speak,

[00:35:42] because we're not spending the time in our head

[00:35:47] creating a rebuttal.

[00:35:49] If we're quick to listen, we'll be slow to speak,

[00:35:51] because we're really paying attention to the other person.

[00:35:54] So when it comes to our turn, we're like,

[00:35:55] oh, wait, actually, I've been paying attention to you.

[00:35:58] Give me a moment to think about what I'm going to say.

[00:36:01] And as that happens,

[00:36:02] we become slow to anger,

[00:36:03] because we, in fact, start to humanize the person.

[00:36:07] We see their hurts, their hopes,

[00:36:09] and really speaks to the fact that one of the things we are exploring

[00:36:12] through the various experts and actual examples is that every difficult

[00:36:17] conversation really is three conversations packed together.

[00:36:20] There's the conversation about the facts,

[00:36:22] what actually counts as the facts,

[00:36:26] and that could change depending on your perspective,

[00:36:29] life experience.

[00:36:31] Then there are the feelings.

[00:36:32] You know, these facts produce different kinds of emotional responses,

[00:36:35] responses, and underneath the feelings are the challenges to our sense of identity

[00:36:41] and security.

[00:36:43] And so we differ in any one conversation on all three levels,

[00:36:47] the facts, the feelings, the sense of identity and security.

[00:36:51] And so when we think about the iceberg of our difficult conversations,

[00:36:56] yes, there's what shows the particular conflict,

[00:36:59] but underneath it there's a whole world that we need to explore of our feelings,

[00:37:05] of our identity,

[00:37:06] our sense of security and significance and meaning and place in the world.

[00:37:11] And that can only happen if we spend the time exploring with curiosity

[00:37:17] what makes another person tick.

[00:37:20] It does seem to me that that's a really important issue to try to pull together,

[00:37:24] because if we're not understanding what a person is saying,

[00:37:28] then obviously we're going to be making some very significant mistakes,

[00:37:32] and maybe in some respects making a judgment.

[00:37:36] Another book that we really enjoyed is by Curtis Chang,

[00:37:40] you know, the after party,

[00:37:41] which involves, of course,

[00:37:42] him and a variety of other authors,

[00:37:44] because the same concept is even among Christians,

[00:37:47] they had slightly different viewpoints.

[00:37:50] And so you get a chance to hear how even within the body of Christ,

[00:37:54] people have maybe different perspectives,

[00:37:56] and each one of them then contributes to the whole,

[00:38:01] and I think that's another value sometimes of these difficult conversations,

[00:38:05] to recognize that even within the body of Christ,

[00:38:07] there are obvious differences theologically,

[00:38:10] denominationally,

[00:38:10] but even politically,

[00:38:11] aren't there?

[00:38:13] There are,

[00:38:14] and we have an opportunity to learn from one another,

[00:38:17] increase the sense of the work that God is doing in the world,

[00:38:20] because we have a richer,

[00:38:22] more multifaceted vision of it.

[00:38:23] And that's one of the things that I've really appreciated in the conversations

[00:38:27] that I've had in hosting these podcasts,

[00:38:29] whether it's,

[00:38:30] you know,

[00:38:30] Francis Collins or Wilkinson talking about differing perspectives on what

[00:38:35] happened with the pandemic,

[00:38:37] and what they have humbly learned from one another,

[00:38:39] or talking to people from rural and urban settings to recognize that their life

[00:38:44] experiences both reveal hopes as well as challenges that fill out the picture of what it means to share life together in this country,

[00:38:55] but specifically what it means as a church to have a more expansive ministry.

[00:39:00] And I also think about some of the global perspectives that we've been,

[00:39:03] uh,

[00:39:04] been able to glean that help us to really tap into the sense that God truly is at work in a myriad of ways.

[00:39:12] And we miss out on what God is doing if we're not attentive to the places that we can learn.

[00:39:19] You know,

[00:39:20] again,

[00:39:20] you mentioned that one of the bonus episodes is understanding the rural experience,

[00:39:24] and I've seen a lot more discussion about that as well.

[00:39:27] So again,

[00:39:28] the bottom line is,

[00:39:29] is if people would like to know a little bit more,

[00:39:31] they can go where they get podcasts.

[00:39:33] You're encouraging people,

[00:39:34] for example,

[00:39:35] to go to Apple podcasts and maybe give a five-star rating after they've had a chance to hear some of them.

[00:39:40] But you can go initially to our website,

[00:39:42] which will take you to the NAE.org website.

[00:39:46] And there is a trailer that you can listen to.

[00:39:48] First of all,

[00:39:49] get a little bit of a handle for what is going to be unfolding and then get a chance to listen to some of the very difficult conversations.

[00:39:57] That Dr.

[00:39:58] Walter Kim and the staff have put together.

[00:40:00] So thank you for the work that you are doing in this regard.

[00:40:03] And I think especially after this contentious election season,

[00:40:07] we're going to need this more than ever before.

[00:40:10] So thank you for joining us today.

[00:40:12] Kirby,

[00:40:13] thank you for having me on.

[00:40:14] Let's,

[00:40:15] if we can take a break.

[00:40:16] And when we come back,

[00:40:16] I'm going to talk about Gen Z radio.

[00:40:18] I think you will enjoy that,

[00:40:20] get into some other issues.

[00:40:21] But you might've heard me say just a minute ago,

[00:40:24] we have an action item.

[00:40:25] Now,

[00:40:25] if you receive an email,

[00:40:26] you may have already received that.

[00:40:28] But if not,

[00:40:28] you can go to our website at point of view.net.

[00:40:32] That middle section says,

[00:40:33] take action.

[00:40:34] Now,

[00:40:34] this one is pretty straightforward.

[00:40:36] And that is the house of representatives,

[00:40:39] which of course is one of the bodies that govern the district of Columbia.

[00:40:43] District of Columbia is not a state.

[00:40:45] It's a district.

[00:40:46] So actually they passed HR one 92,

[00:40:50] which would prohibit individuals who are not citizens,

[00:40:53] the United States from voting and elections in the district of Columbia.

[00:40:57] Now that passed,

[00:40:58] uh,

[00:40:59] actually every Republican voted for it and 52 house Democrats voted for it,

[00:41:03] but it's now sitting in the U S Senate.

[00:41:06] Probably will go nowhere unless we create a little bit of interest.

[00:41:10] Now you might say,

[00:41:11] well,

[00:41:12] I want to do more than that.

[00:41:13] I recognize,

[00:41:13] but let's take one step at a time.

[00:41:16] When you have individuals who are allowed to vote that are not citizens right now,

[00:41:22] anybody that lives in the district of Columbia for 30 days could be then eligible to vote,

[00:41:28] at least in local elections.

[00:41:30] Now that could mean then that you could be,

[00:41:33] I don't know,

[00:41:33] an ambassador from China or Russia.

[00:41:36] You've lived there 30 days.

[00:41:37] You could actually vote.

[00:41:38] Does that make any sense to you?

[00:41:40] Or you could be from,

[00:41:42] um,

[00:41:42] a hostile country.

[00:41:43] You could be from a country where terrorism is dominant.

[00:41:48] and again,

[00:41:49] if you are in the district,

[00:41:51] you can vote in local elections.

[00:41:52] Now I recognize there's a lot more that needs to be done,

[00:41:55] but you take one piece at a time.

[00:41:58] You've heard the old phrase,

[00:42:00] how do you eat an elephant?

[00:42:01] One bite at a time.

[00:42:02] I'm not sure I want to eat an elephant,

[00:42:04] but you know what I'm getting at here.

[00:42:05] The point is,

[00:42:06] is that let's deal with something simple.

[00:42:09] And then let's see if we can go a little further.

[00:42:12] But isn't it interesting that you couldn't get all the Democrats to vote for it?

[00:42:16] You got all the Republicans to vote for it,

[00:42:18] not all the Democrats.

[00:42:19] And we can't even get a vote at the moment in the U S Senate.

[00:42:23] So it's a pretty simple one.

[00:42:24] Matter of fact,

[00:42:25] talk about,

[00:42:26] um,

[00:42:26] really,

[00:42:26] this is very simple and very easy.

[00:42:29] All you need to do is go to our website,

[00:42:31] click on that button,

[00:42:32] put in your zip code,

[00:42:34] and then up pops,

[00:42:34] what your two United States senators.

[00:42:37] And you can then say voting is a privilege.

[00:42:39] We think that this is a very common sense argument to actually say that local residential voting should take place.

[00:42:48] It should be individuals who are citizens that should be allowed to vote.

[00:42:52] This is again,

[00:42:53] if I use a different metaphor,

[00:42:55] camel's nose under the tent.

[00:42:56] Well,

[00:42:56] if they can vote for local elections,

[00:42:58] why can't they vote for national elections?

[00:43:00] And you can kind of see where we go with that.

[00:43:02] So if you believe in voter integrity,

[00:43:05] this is a pretty simple one.

[00:43:06] We've made it possible for you to contact your two senators.

[00:43:09] We'll be right back.

[00:43:12] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:43:18] They say men can be women and women,

[00:43:20] men,

[00:43:21] people are prosecuted differently or not at all,

[00:43:25] depending on their politics.

[00:43:26] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:43:31] It's so overwhelming,

[00:43:33] so demoralizing.

[00:43:34] You feel like giving up.

[00:43:36] But we can't.

[00:43:37] We shouldn't.

[00:43:38] We must not.

[00:43:39] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:43:44] never give in.

[00:43:45] Never give in.

[00:43:47] Never,

[00:43:47] never,

[00:43:48] never.

[00:43:48] never yield to force.

[00:43:50] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:43:54] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:43:57] This is not a time to give in,

[00:43:59] but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:44:04] We can't do it alone,

[00:44:06] but together,

[00:44:07] with God's help,

[00:44:09] we will overcome the darkness.

[00:44:11] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net

[00:44:15] or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:20] Pointofview.net

[00:44:22] and 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:29] Point of View will continue after this.