Point of View November 7, 2024 – Hour 1 : Serpents and Doves

[00:00:04] Across America Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] How should Christians really interact with the political arena? Many people are saying that now we need to focus some time on the very important question, what next?

[00:00:30] And that is certainly what we're going to be talking about today in this first hour and then certainly in other broadcasts as well.

[00:00:37] We're going to be bringing to you a book that I think you will find very helpful. It is written by Dr. James Spencer.

[00:00:43] He's been on the program with us before. It's entitled Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:00:51] You might remember that he is the president of the D.L. Moody Center.

[00:00:55] He has his doctorate in theological studies from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

[00:01:00] He's a theologian, a podcaster, Christian leaders. Matter of fact, you might even go to his podcast, which is called Thinking Christian, as well as he has a weekly radio program, Useful to God.

[00:01:11] He's written a number of different books on Christian thinking, Christian resistance, Useful to God, Eight Lessons from the Life of D.L. Moody, and this book, Serpents and Doves.

[00:01:20] James Spencer, welcome back to Point of View.

[00:01:23] Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

[00:01:25] Let's start with your story that you begin with, and that is a number of years ago where you were serving as an academic dean at a Bible college.

[00:01:33] Donald Trump was elected in November of 2016.

[00:01:36] Then you go to a gathering, which was pretty much in the chapel, and that was a sort of eye opening.

[00:01:44] And I think in some respects was what is the impetus for this book, wasn't it?

[00:01:50] It was. It was the first time I think I was really confronted with a drastically different understanding of politics than I'd been confronted with previously.

[00:01:59] You know, I grew up in a fairly small town in central Illinois, and so the politics almost pass you by.

[00:02:05] You know, things kind of run a little bit more automatically in a rural community, especially when I was growing up.

[00:02:10] So to see these students come to the chapel really frustrated, truly concerned, having real legitimate concerns about what was going to happen with the Donald Trump presidency in 2016 was definitely eye opening for me.

[00:02:25] And I think what I saw more than anything else was that these students weren't left or right.

[00:02:31] They had real concerns that they were worried wouldn't be addressed under a Trump presidency, and they were having difficulty understanding how to root themselves in patterns that are deeply derived from the biblical text as opposed to buying into one political narrative or another.

[00:02:50] And so I think overall that experience for me was what sort of started to get me interested in politics and ultimately, as you said, prompted me to write this book.

[00:03:00] Well, and I think it illustrates again that we just had another election, and one of the universities they went to, Georgetown University, had a day for individuals to not have to go to class, and they could go and have various treats and pet dogs and really try to recover from that.

[00:03:16] I noticed that when that was posted, Hillsdale College put up and said, what are we going to do tomorrow?

[00:03:21] We're going to have class as usual.

[00:03:23] So, I mean, you can recognize that whether you're talking about 2016, 2024, you're talking about some very deep questions that you try to address.

[00:03:34] And I might just mention to our listeners that if you find yourself interested in the book as we go through this, 13 different chapters.

[00:03:41] We'll do our best to try to cover some of these.

[00:03:43] But in some respects, what you try to do is give some of the arguments, some of the key texts, and then sort of a point-counterpoint taking us through the book.

[00:03:53] Isn't that kind of the way you really wanted to discuss and actually discover some of these principles?

[00:03:59] Yes, I very much wanted to try to root this in the scriptures and begin to differentiate between what is a very good American story.

[00:04:09] I am not anti-American in any sense of the word.

[00:04:12] But I do think that the biblical story and the story of the Christian church is slightly different than the American story, and we need to differentiate those.

[00:04:21] And so as I went through it, I really did try to root a lot of this in the biblical text and try to take my cues from there as opposed to advancing sort of a left view or a right view, as it were.

[00:04:33] And I think one of the things that we need to also talk about is the need for some kind of practicality.

[00:04:38] I was just thinking, for example, of Carl Henry.

[00:04:41] Got to know him pretty well over the years, and he also had a son that was in Congress.

[00:04:46] And I think that is helpful, or you can think of J. Gresham Machen.

[00:04:50] You can go all the way back, or Steele Moody was thinking about that himself.

[00:04:54] There is a sense in which most of the time you have theologians over here and you have politicians over there.

[00:05:01] And I sometimes, even when I would teach at a local seminary right down the road here, Dallas Theological Seminary,

[00:05:07] I was sort of like a skunk in the party because, you know, people were reading my columns in the Dallas Morning News,

[00:05:12] and I was also teaching classes.

[00:05:13] It's like, okay, how do those two come together?

[00:05:16] Which I think brings us to your first chapter, distinguishing church and state.

[00:05:21] There is a sense in which we certainly don't want to accept the way the ACLU and other groups describe the separation of church and state.

[00:05:31] But it is very clear that the institutions of church and state are separate.

[00:05:36] And sometimes there is a little bit of tension when a person who has an ecclesiastical degree goes into government.

[00:05:43] I am thinking of Mike Huckabee or somebody like that.

[00:05:46] Or when somebody who is political all these years then begins to get more involved in church politics.

[00:05:52] And yet we recognize those are different spheres.

[00:05:55] Can you help us out?

[00:05:56] Yeah, it's a difficult thing to understand because I think we're all aiming for some semblance of the good.

[00:06:03] And so if we think about it, you know, on its best day, our government is shooting for the good,

[00:06:10] something that we would all understand as good.

[00:06:13] And good sits above.

[00:06:15] It's sort of like God.

[00:06:17] You know, God derives the good.

[00:06:19] The good is determined.

[00:06:20] It's not something that we choose necessarily.

[00:06:22] It's not something we identify ourselves.

[00:06:24] You know, as if by labeling something good, we automatically make it good.

[00:06:28] Good sits above us.

[00:06:30] It transcends us.

[00:06:31] And so as the government gestures toward the good, I think a lot of times Christians can feel like we're on the same team.

[00:06:37] But the reality is that Christianity always has a surplus of the good that we can identify because we know Christ.

[00:06:46] We know the triune God.

[00:06:47] And ultimately, we see that the semblance of peace, the semblance of justice, the semblance of the good that our governing authorities can bring about,

[00:06:57] they're not bad things, but they're still a semblance.

[00:07:00] They're still less complete than we will ever see in the kingdom of God.

[00:07:04] And so the way I sort of approach this, and this has come even after I wrote the book,

[00:07:10] I started interacting with folks who are more practically involved in politics

[00:07:13] and really tried to learn and understand what their perspective was.

[00:07:18] And one of the things I would say is, as Christians, we need to recognize and applaud the good that the government does

[00:07:25] while at the same time pointing beyond that good.

[00:07:30] We can never give up our proclamation of the gospel.

[00:07:32] We can never give up our pointing to and glorifying the triune God.

[00:07:37] We don't want God to get lost.

[00:07:39] And we don't want to settle for what the government can provide for us.

[00:07:43] And so there's a sense in which, yes, we should critique our government when they do something wrong,

[00:07:47] but there's also a sense in which we should celebrate our government when the governing authorities do something good.

[00:07:52] We just can't settle for that goodness because it's not complete,

[00:07:56] and it is not commensurate with what it means to be a Christian person.

[00:08:01] Let me just mention we're going to take a break.

[00:08:03] When we come back, we're going to work our way through the book.

[00:08:05] But if you find yourself interested in it at all, we have information about it.

[00:08:10] It came out earlier this year, and so you can get it in paperback or Kindle.

[00:08:14] And so you can click on that button there if you'd like to get that.

[00:08:17] And also, you might imagine, since we're talking with the president of the D.L. Moody Center,

[00:08:22] that indeed we have a link to moodycenter.org for some information there.

[00:08:28] The other day I was checking, and I think at the moment you're doing some reconstruction and those kinds of things,

[00:08:33] but eventually it might be a place where I think some of the listeners would like to go and tour that as well.

[00:08:38] But let's take a break.

[00:08:39] We'll continue our conversation with Dr. James Spencer, serpents and doves.

[00:08:44] We'll be right back.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] Twenty years ago I did an interview with Bernard Goldberg in his book, Bias.

[00:09:06] I bring it up because his analysis has stood the test of time.

[00:09:09] At the time, he was the first media insider to reveal what many of us suspected about the background

[00:09:15] and attitudes of people who determine what you read, see, and hear in the media.

[00:09:19] There were other studies, like the Lichter-Rothman studies, that also provided insight,

[00:09:23] but Bernard Goldberg's book provided lots of information and an important perspective.

[00:09:28] His perspective was helpful because it set aside the idea that media bias was some liberal conspiracy.

[00:09:35] He said, there isn't a well-orchestrated, vast left-wing conspiracy in America's newsrooms.

[00:09:40] Instead, he said, the bitter truth is worse.

[00:09:42] Essentially, what we have in the mainstream media is a common worldview that is promoted in the newsrooms

[00:09:47] and promoted in the way news stories are covered.

[00:09:50] Various studies of the media leak concluded that people who determine what is newsworthy

[00:09:54] and how it is covered are very different from the rest of the American public.

[00:09:58] Let's look at a few examples.

[00:10:00] Polling data of political parties show that the United States is about evenly divided

[00:10:04] between Republicans and Democrats.

[00:10:06] But when you ask journalists to identify their political party,

[00:10:09] you can only find 4% of them identify themselves as Republican.

[00:10:12] One study found that members of the media, when compared to the public at large,

[00:10:16] are less likely to get married, have children, less likely to own homes.

[00:10:20] They are also less likely to go to church or synagogue.

[00:10:23] And how many journalists polled belong to the American Legion

[00:10:26] or service organizations like the Rotary Club?

[00:10:29] The answer was zero.

[00:10:31] You know, 28 years later, Bernard Goldberg's book still reminds us that the media elite

[00:10:35] view the world differently than the average American.

[00:10:39] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:47] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net.

[00:10:53] That's pointofview.net.

[00:10:57] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:03] Dr. James Spencer with us today, and again, he is the president of the D.L. Moody Center,

[00:11:07] which is in Northfield, Massachusetts.

[00:11:09] Let me encourage you to visit there sometime if you are traveling in New England

[00:11:14] and certainly would benefit from some of the great resources they have,

[00:11:17] and we do have a link to that on our website.

[00:11:20] This book is entitled Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:11:25] And I thought I'd jump ahead to one of the chapters there on Christ's authority,

[00:11:29] because what you are making the case for is the church.

[00:11:33] Not only the institutional church, but the body of Christ must guard against,

[00:11:37] number one, compromising its belief or character because it believes or appears to be politically expedient,

[00:11:44] and number two, adopting the logic of the nations.

[00:11:48] That is a very poignant warning, and it's something which unfortunately, James,

[00:11:54] we have seen many churches do.

[00:11:57] Whatever is sort of culturally relevant at the moment,

[00:12:01] then people come to the Bible and say,

[00:12:03] well, that's what the Bible has always been saying.

[00:12:05] And so instead of doing what we call biblical exegesis,

[00:12:09] or putting Christ first, putting the Word of God first,

[00:12:12] we do what's called iso-Jesus.

[00:12:14] But talk about that, because we certainly do believe that Christ is not only authority

[00:12:19] and authority over the church, but over the state as well.

[00:12:22] Isn't that true?

[00:12:24] That's true.

[00:12:24] Romans 13, 1 through 4 really speaks to that,

[00:12:27] that there's no authority except that established by God.

[00:12:30] And so I think where we are right now is that many of our nation's leaders don't recognize God's authority.

[00:12:35] And even if they recognize it sort of in a more generic way,

[00:12:39] they may not fully grasp it in a very specific way.

[00:12:42] And so we haven't really developed a strong,

[00:12:45] robust understanding of what it means for a nation to sit under the authority of God.

[00:12:51] And I think one of the areas where I see the sort of compromise that I talk about,

[00:12:56] these compromise of beliefs and character because they're politically expedient,

[00:13:00] I often see them in absence as opposed to in action.

[00:13:05] And so here's what I mean by that.

[00:13:06] I was speaking to somebody who's involved in getting folks elected,

[00:13:12] and this person had to be a Christian.

[00:13:13] And at one point he said, you know,

[00:13:15] we talked a little bit about the abortion issue and the change of the Republican platform this year,

[00:13:20] which largely went pro-choice.

[00:13:21] And so I just asked about that and said, well,

[00:13:24] it's something that, you know,

[00:13:24] we're going to put up with because, you know,

[00:13:27] we think that's what's necessary to get our guy elected.

[00:13:29] And that's sort of how this individual phrased it.

[00:13:32] And I think that that is an instance where,

[00:13:35] because Christians aren't necessarily speaking out as vehemently against that,

[00:13:39] that we are compromising our beliefs to some degree.

[00:13:43] And in part, at least,

[00:13:45] we're doing so because we don't want to lose a political election.

[00:13:49] And I think that the church needs to really wrestle with those sort of notions

[00:13:53] that we oftentimes may be tempted to keep silent and not proclaim the truth

[00:14:00] simply because we don't want to lose to what we perceive to be a greater evil.

[00:14:06] And so I think this is a very complex issue.

[00:14:08] It isn't just about, you know, sort of the,

[00:14:11] and I think you're right,

[00:14:12] the cultural accommodations that are often made within the church.

[00:14:16] But I also think it's around this sort of willingness to be silent in order to win.

[00:14:23] And I just, I wonder about that.

[00:14:25] That's one of those things that I feel a lot of discomfort about as Christians participate in politics.

[00:14:31] Well, and again, it's just as relevant as yesterday.

[00:14:34] We're having a meeting to develop the January issue of Outlook.

[00:14:38] And I know Liberty is writing on this very issue,

[00:14:42] starting with the abortion issue and some others.

[00:14:44] And it's not just abortion.

[00:14:46] I mean, you could also talk about the silence of the evangelical and fundamentalist churches

[00:14:50] in the 1960s during the Civil Rights Movement and a variety of other things

[00:14:54] where there was sometimes it's not what you say, it's what you don't say tells you some things as well.

[00:15:00] Well, let's get to, first of all, one of your chapters, Chapter 4,

[00:15:03] but it's also the title of the book, Serpents and Doves.

[00:15:06] It isn't something about zoology.

[00:15:08] It actually has to do with the fact that we need to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

[00:15:15] And you chose that particular illustration that Jesus uses to really give us an idea

[00:15:21] of what it means to be wise in the political sphere.

[00:15:25] Can you explain that?

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:27] In Matthew, Chapter 10, Jesus is sending his disciples out for the first time.

[00:15:31] And one of the warnings that he gives them is to beware of men.

[00:15:34] And in the context, what that likely or what that seems to mean is that Jesus is sending them out.

[00:15:40] Some people are going to accept the disciples and their message,

[00:15:43] and other people are going to reject that message.

[00:15:45] These people that Jesus is warning them against are the people who reject the message of Christ.

[00:15:50] And he goes on to talk about how these people that they are to beware of will betray them,

[00:15:55] that ultimately their allegiances lie elsewhere.

[00:15:58] They're not with the disciples.

[00:16:00] They're not with Christ.

[00:16:01] And so he urges them to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves,

[00:16:05] so that as they're sort of navigating the political sphere that they'll ultimately be subjected to,

[00:16:14] that they understand what probably we might say what their rights are.

[00:16:19] In other words, how to maneuver the political sphere, but not to depend on it,

[00:16:23] not to lean on it so heavily that when it breaks badly, that they are harmed in that breakage.

[00:16:30] And I think what Jesus is really trying to get across here is that the church needs to depend on Christ.

[00:16:36] They need to depend on the Holy Spirit.

[00:16:38] They need to depend on the people who are loyal to Christ, loyal to God.

[00:16:42] And we really can't always trust the people who don't have that deep relationship with Christ.

[00:16:48] It doesn't mean that we defame them.

[00:16:51] It doesn't mean that we shun them or anything like that.

[00:16:53] It just means that we have to be that much more careful of who our allies are and how we choose them.

[00:17:01] Let's talk about how to maybe figure that out,

[00:17:03] because certainly the idea that you also go into is render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,

[00:17:09] but also to God the things that are God's.

[00:17:11] That's Matthew 22.

[00:17:12] But then you also see in Romans 13 that Paul reminds us that all government is under God's authority.

[00:17:20] 1 Peter 2 talks about the idea that we honor the emperor living as servants of God.

[00:17:25] And so it seems to me that we should be good citizens.

[00:17:29] We should be good people.

[00:17:31] We should obey government, but not in every case,

[00:17:34] because I've got a booklet that we've made available on civil disobedience.

[00:17:37] When there are specific times when the government specifically orders you to do something

[00:17:43] that would violate biblical principles, then you can disobey.

[00:17:47] But most of the emphasis on Scripture is to obey the government.

[00:17:51] And so I think whether we're talking about Christ's authority

[00:17:55] or even this idea of innocent as doves and as wise as serpents,

[00:18:01] those are principles that we need to really begin to develop in the political arena, don't we?

[00:18:07] They are.

[00:18:08] And I think when we think about authority,

[00:18:10] probably the best way I've come up with to think about it is to understand authority as delegated.

[00:18:15] And so God delegates authority to the governing authorities.

[00:18:19] And so we're subject to those governing authorities to the extent that they are seated under the authority of God,

[00:18:25] that they are actually enacting that authority that God has given them.

[00:18:29] Oftentimes governing authorities go beyond the authority that God has given them.

[00:18:34] And it's at those times where we then don't obey the governing authorities.

[00:18:38] We always obey God.

[00:18:40] And so there should be a flow through.

[00:18:42] It should be that the governing authorities, in the best possible scenario,

[00:18:45] the governing authorities are doing exactly what God would have them do,

[00:18:48] and we are living in peace and with justice underneath those authorities.

[00:18:54] But when the governing authorities step away from God's authority,

[00:18:57] when they reject God's authority,

[00:18:59] when they take up more than they are supposed to take up,

[00:19:01] when they go in a different direction and start calling evil good and good evil,

[00:19:05] then that's when Christians sort of go around them, back up to the big boss, right,

[00:19:11] the one who has delegated that authority, and we always obey God.

[00:19:14] And so that's how I sort of picture that.

[00:19:16] It's almost like if you can picture a Russian nesting doll.

[00:19:20] You know, God is the biggest doll.

[00:19:22] He is the one that holds all these things together.

[00:19:25] And so we are always obeying him.

[00:19:28] Occasionally we are doing that as we obey governing authorities.

[00:19:32] But it's always a response to God and the authority that he provides

[00:19:36] and the authority that he wields.

[00:19:38] I just mentioned, too, that you do have a section there about Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[00:19:43] and Karl Barth and others that actually were resisting Adolf Hitler,

[00:19:48] something that I know that Erwin Lutzer, who, by the way, is on your board, has spoken to,

[00:19:53] and certainly Eric Metaxas has spoken to as well.

[00:19:56] So certainly that helps us understand that there is a separation

[00:20:00] between the institution of the church and institution of the state.

[00:20:04] But when we come back from the break, I want to help you untangle,

[00:20:07] maybe you can help us untangle another one, and that is Christian and nation.

[00:20:11] Lots of times your chapters really take on one article or one idea and one another idea

[00:20:19] and how sometimes those are against each other or maybe they overlap with each other.

[00:20:25] We've already talked about this idea of church and state, but what about Christian and nation?

[00:20:29] And then we'll get into some other aspects as well.

[00:20:32] And if you find yourself saying, well, I would really be interested in this book,

[00:20:35] it might be a great individual study.

[00:20:37] It's put together in such a way that it could be a very good small group study.

[00:20:42] It is, again, entitled Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:20:48] We have information about it on the website.

[00:20:51] It might be difficult to find in your local bookstore, but I think you'll be able to find it here.

[00:20:55] Of course, you can also contact our good friends there at the D.L. Moody Center.

[00:20:59] But there's a way that you can get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:21:02] You might want to get multiple copies and have a very informative and, I think, enlightening study

[00:21:09] because each one of the chapters starts out with some of the arguments in the chapter,

[00:21:14] some key biblical texts, and then some ways in which you can begin that discussion.

[00:21:19] So if you're looking for something that might help you clarify how Christians can be salt and light,

[00:21:25] I think you'll really appreciate this book.

[00:21:26] And we'll be right back.

[00:21:30] Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age.

[00:21:35] Well, today, there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:21:40] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important

[00:21:44] and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information.

[00:21:51] Let me give you a suggestion to help with that.

[00:21:54] Visit pointofview.net.

[00:21:57] Look at the tabs across the top.

[00:21:59] Find the one named Viewpoints.

[00:22:01] Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news to identify those issues that you really need to know about.

[00:22:10] They boil things down in a brief summary,

[00:22:12] and then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved.

[00:22:17] Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints, you'll see exactly what I mean.

[00:22:23] You'll see the issues that we are covering right now.

[00:22:26] And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will,

[00:22:30] you can slide on over, enter your email, and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day.

[00:22:37] That's it.

[00:22:37] Take a minute now.

[00:22:39] Be informed.

[00:22:40] pointofview.net.

[00:22:42] Click on Viewpoints.

[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Continuing our conversation today with Dr. James Spencer.

[00:23:15] Again, the book is entitled Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:23:20] And two of your chapters, James, I think really help us out.

[00:23:23] One is untangling Christian and nation.

[00:23:27] And the one after that, about a people called.

[00:23:31] Because there's, of course, you who are living in Massachusetts are well aware of the fact that there were some who came to this country and said this would be a city on a hill.

[00:23:39] And that this would be the new Israel.

[00:23:42] So how do we sort that out?

[00:23:44] Because it seems to me that on the one hand, I think we would all agree that there were Christian principles important in the founding of this country.

[00:23:52] But this wasn't necessarily a Christian nation in the proper sense of the word.

[00:23:57] But it had Christian foundations.

[00:24:00] And even more so, there is a difference between, say, the United States and Israel.

[00:24:05] Can you sort us out for that?

[00:24:08] Hopefully.

[00:24:08] I'll try to.

[00:24:09] I think the first place we have to go is to look at Scripture.

[00:24:12] And Christian is actually only used.

[00:24:14] The word Christian is only used a few times in Scripture.

[00:24:17] It's used once in Acts 11, once in Acts 26, and then once in 1 Peter.

[00:24:21] But in each of those three instances, what we see is that what it means to be Christian involves a union with Christ.

[00:24:29] And so I think that from a biblical perspective, the way that we use Christian matters.

[00:24:34] I would go all the way back to the Ten Commandments and say that taking the Lord's name in vain likely involves applying the Lord's name to something that simply is not suitable to bear it.

[00:24:48] And so when we start calling our nation Christian, but our nation really does not have an essential unity with Christ, I think we're using the term in a way that the Bible doesn't use it.

[00:25:00] And I would really phrase it like that.

[00:25:02] I think that it's important for Christians to watch our language.

[00:25:06] I think it's important for us to stop confusing people and suggesting that our nation was a Christian nation and be a little bit more specific about what we mean when we say that.

[00:25:17] And I think what most people mean when they say that is that there was a Christian influence on our nation.

[00:25:24] There was certainly an influence by the Bible and by certain biblical virtues even on the founding of our nation.

[00:25:33] I don't think that's even deniable.

[00:25:35] But there's a fundamental difference between being inspired by the Scriptures and recognizing the Scriptures as inspired.

[00:25:43] And that's the distinction I think we need to capture.

[00:25:46] Our nation has never viewed the Bible as authoritative in the same way that the church does.

[00:25:52] And so this is just another one of those areas where our language has gotten a little bit confusing,

[00:25:57] and we need to continually clarify that so that the Christian church doesn't lose its mission or doesn't merge its mission with the United States.

[00:26:08] One of the things I oftentimes say when I'm speaking on this issue, because I do talk about America's godly heritage and all the rest,

[00:26:15] is I think after you've seen all the things I talk about, whether I talk about the pilgrims, the Puritans,

[00:26:21] the establishment of this country, the Declaration, the Constitution,

[00:26:25] how so significant were the sermons of the 18th century, the First and Second Great Awakening, and all the rest,

[00:26:31] I think any fair-minded person would have to say that Christian principles were very important in the establishment,

[00:26:39] really in the origin, even the foundation of the republic.

[00:26:43] Wouldn't it make sense that if they were so essential in the foundation of the republic,

[00:26:48] that they would also be important in the maintenance of that republic?

[00:26:51] And that's a way to emphasize again how important Christianity was and how important it needs to be in the future

[00:26:59] without necessarily trying to say that Israel and the United States are the same kind of situation,

[00:27:05] because God specifically created the nation of Israel.

[00:27:10] Humans started this country, but they were motivated in large part by Christian principles.

[00:27:16] Is that fair?

[00:27:17] I think it's really fair.

[00:27:18] And what I would just suggest is, you know, God chose Israel as his special possession.

[00:27:24] And so if, you know, when God calls Israel his people, the church really takes that up.

[00:27:31] It's not a replacement theology.

[00:27:32] I know when I say this, people kind of jump right to replacement theology as if the church is replacing Israel.

[00:27:37] I don't really think that's what it is.

[00:27:39] I think it's the assembly, the gathering of the Gentiles into Israel,

[00:27:44] so that we become God's people by having a vibrant and organic connection with Christ.

[00:27:51] America would fall under the sort of the nations category.

[00:27:54] And the nations have always been differently used by God, differently blessed by God.

[00:28:01] And as we see in Acts 17, they have been given sort of a provisional status.

[00:28:06] They're around for a while and then they fall off.

[00:28:08] They're around for a while and then they fall off.

[00:28:11] And so I 100% agree that I think Christian principles and specifically the church are necessary for any nation.

[00:28:20] And I would say particularly in the United States, we do have a heritage that has been deeply influenced by Christian principles.

[00:28:26] I'm with you.

[00:28:27] I don't think that's even arguable.

[00:28:30] But at the same time, what we need to recognize is that just as Israel fell away, even though God gave them a law off of Mount Sinai,

[00:28:40] there is no constitution, there's no set of laws, there's no bill of rights that's going to hold back the evil of human hearts.

[00:28:46] And so the church needs to stay clear on who we are.

[00:28:51] We need to stay clear that the gospel is what the world needs to hear, not a gospel of democracy, but a gospel of Jesus Christ.

[00:28:59] And that's really, I think, where I want to position these couple of chapters in the book.

[00:29:04] I'm trying to help people understand that there's nothing particularly wrong with using, you know,

[00:29:09] sort of a shorthand phrase like Christian nation.

[00:29:12] But I think it's very confusing.

[00:29:14] And the confusion is actually a problem.

[00:29:16] Yes.

[00:29:17] Well, again, we've talked about chapters five and six, but how about seven and eight for just a few minutes?

[00:29:21] Because on the one hand, we're talking about the fact that we have liberty and freedom.

[00:29:26] And we will even tomorrow probably talk about religious liberty.

[00:29:30] And we do on this program so often.

[00:29:32] But on the other hand, you give us the other part of that extreme.

[00:29:36] And that is obedience.

[00:29:38] And so there is really a tension which is found in the scriptures.

[00:29:43] It's certainly found even in our documents for this country of having liberty, but also having responsibility and obedience.

[00:29:52] Can you sort that out for us?

[00:29:54] Yeah, I think a lot of times when we talk about freedom, we tend to intermingle two different sorts of freedom.

[00:30:00] And I'll just call them one is political freedom, which is a freedom from consequences.

[00:30:06] So when we talk about freedom of religion, what we're really talking about is we're talking about the freedom to exercise the religion of our choice,

[00:30:13] to practice the religion of our choice without fear of repercussions from the government.

[00:30:19] That's the sort of freedom we're talking about.

[00:30:21] It's a freedom from consequences.

[00:30:22] I can act as I would like to act without fearing coercive power of the government keeping me from doing what I'd like to do.

[00:30:31] When we look at biblically freedom and the sort of freedom we often think about our freedom in Christ, that's actually a freedom from sin.

[00:30:40] It's a freedom now to obey.

[00:30:42] It's a freedom to live according to the fruits of the spirit, to experience life in Christ.

[00:30:48] It doesn't necessarily entail a political freedom.

[00:30:53] Those two are, I think, separate and distinct, although they can often come together.

[00:30:57] And so in the United States, for instance, we have both.

[00:31:00] We have religious freedom, and I think it's very important for us to protect that freedom.

[00:31:04] We're promised it in our founding documents.

[00:31:07] And so I think it's appropriate for Christians to speak up and say, this is what we were told this was going to be.

[00:31:12] This is the commitment that the government has to us.

[00:31:15] You need to keep your commitments.

[00:31:17] While, on the other hand, recognizing that religious freedom is not necessary for us to have freedom in Christ.

[00:31:24] There are a lot of Christians around the world who do not have the sort of religious freedom we have here and are still exercising their freedom to obey.

[00:31:32] It comes with different consequences.

[00:31:35] But ultimately, those two are, like I said, separate and distinct, though in America we have them sort of wrapped up together.

[00:31:42] Well said.

[00:31:43] Good.

[00:31:44] One other chapter maybe we'll get to, and then we'll deal with some more after the break, and that is this idea of Exodus.

[00:31:50] Because that is probably, again, a fairly unique chapter.

[00:31:54] I would imagine most people might not necessarily understand how that fits with, well, the book of Exodus, for example, and the idea of Sabbath and some things like that.

[00:32:04] Can you explain that for us?

[00:32:06] Yeah, it's fascinating.

[00:32:08] As I started to look into the founding documents and some of the other writings that were available early on in America's history, the Exodus kept coming up.

[00:32:16] And so you find that Benjamin Franklin suggested a picture of Moses bringing the Israelites out of Egypt as our national seal.

[00:32:26] And you see the Exodus just coming up like that often.

[00:32:30] And what it kind of reminded me of is two things.

[00:32:35] Number one, the Exodus in the Old Testament was not simply a political liberation.

[00:32:41] It was a theological redemption.

[00:32:45] And so what we have in the Old Testament is we have Israel being freed from servitude in Egypt to be brought out to be in service to God.

[00:32:56] In other words, they're not autonomous.

[00:32:57] They don't get to decide what sort of nation they're going to be.

[00:33:00] God's going to tell them what sort of nation they're going to be.

[00:33:02] He is now their king.

[00:33:05] When Exodus is used in early American founding literature, what it tends to be is we've been freed from tyranny.

[00:33:13] We've been freed from oppression.

[00:33:14] And so there's an Egypt and there's an Israel.

[00:33:17] You know, in early American documents, for instance, you see a great written framed as Egypt and you see America as the new Israel.

[00:33:24] But then there's not that subsequent and we're going to live under God's law sort of piece to it.

[00:33:30] It's strictly about political liberation, not about theological redemption.

[00:33:34] Well said.

[00:33:36] Let's take a break.

[00:33:37] We'll continue our conversation on this book, Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:33:42] We'll be right back.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] Dr. James Spencer with us as we talk about his book, Serpents and Doves, Christians, Politics and the Art of Bearing Witness.

[00:34:07] One of the chapters, God appoints and we choose.

[00:34:10] And this, I think, is so important because I run into people, James, sometimes that will say, look, I've read that God raises up leaders and brings them down.

[00:34:19] So God is already going to determine who's going to be in leadership.

[00:34:23] So why do I need to vote?

[00:34:25] My quick answer to that is, well, actually, God knows what you need, but he encourages you to pray.

[00:34:31] You believe that God is going to lead people to himself, but you also believe that you should be involved in evangelism.

[00:34:40] And so in some respects, that, I think, comes from this incredible confusion about what you call God appoints and we choose.

[00:34:48] So what would we actually need to discuss and try to discern from God's word in that regard?

[00:34:56] I think one of the big things I wanted to get across in this chapter is it's not that Christians shouldn't vote or or that our participation in politics is negated because God is in control.

[00:35:07] I think that sort of view of sovereignty is a little bit over exaggerated.

[00:35:11] And so what I was really trying to get across was this.

[00:35:15] Oftentimes we have a set of criteria that we use to choose our leaders.

[00:35:21] And then we are upset if our, you know, if the leader we wanted to get into office isn't elected.

[00:35:29] And I think that that is one of those moments where we just need to recognize that we have deep limitations in our understanding of what God is doing.

[00:35:40] And so after we've done our choice process, after we've thought it through, after we've looked at all the criteria, and it doesn't turn out the way we think, we shouldn't be necessarily lamenting the fact that our leader didn't get in.

[00:35:54] We should be curious about what it is that God is doing.

[00:35:57] And one of the areas that I cite is Jeremiah 25.

[00:36:00] In Jeremiah 25, Jeremiah prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar, who is called God's servant, is going to come in and take Israel into exile.

[00:36:11] And if you just think about that moment in time and you project back and you say, well, how many Israelites were really going to cast a ballot for Nebuchadnezzar?

[00:36:20] Not very many.

[00:36:21] But this was necessary.

[00:36:23] This was something that God needed to do.

[00:36:25] This was the direction of history that he was taking people on.

[00:36:28] And so sometimes our radar is just off.

[00:36:30] And I think what I want to encourage people with in this chapter of God appoints we choose is that sometimes we get our choices right.

[00:36:37] Sometimes we align with God, maybe for completely different reasons than we think.

[00:36:42] But ultimately, when we don't align with what God is doing, we should really be curious about what he's going to do.

[00:36:49] God is always in control.

[00:36:51] He is always appointing leaders.

[00:36:52] I don't think that negates our choice, but it should certainly make us interested to understand why it is that God has put this person over this nation at this time.

[00:37:03] And I think it should just make us more cognizant of watching for God's movement in the world.

[00:37:08] One of the other chapters, which probably would not have been predicted if you were just assuming this is going to be a politics chapter, is a whole chapter dealing with technology.

[00:37:19] And I'm glad you included that.

[00:37:20] First of all, my latest book, Discerning the Future, the first article is on transhumanism.

[00:37:26] The second article is on artificial intelligence.

[00:37:27] So you can see that you and I are speaking about those same issues because, as you point out, technology can have a political effect because it can influence us in very significant ways.

[00:37:39] Anybody that has been around social media understands that.

[00:37:43] But also just this way in which we think through this idea of technology is, again, one of those very important issues that Christians need to address.

[00:37:53] Yeah, it absolutely is.

[00:37:55] And I think, you know, we had a lot of this, you know, coming into this election of how social media in previous elections maybe had held certain information back or advanced other information to sort of influence the voting populace.

[00:38:08] I almost always come back to one thing.

[00:38:10] It's up to us.

[00:38:12] We're the ones who are giving our attention to that information.

[00:38:15] And so we have to manage our attention better.

[00:38:18] But technology today, it's making it more and more difficult to actually manage our attention.

[00:38:24] I think as we adopt more technology on a society-wide basis, we're all falling into this trap of how do I avoid looking at social media?

[00:38:34] How do I avoid checking my email?

[00:38:36] How do I avoid going on the Internet or using AI?

[00:38:39] Some of these things are becoming so embedded in the things that we already use that we're sort of stuck with them.

[00:38:45] And I think that was my, you know, one of my points in this chapter is just to say that these things are actively working to capture our attention.

[00:38:54] But our attention needs to be on the Lord.

[00:38:56] I think paying attention is a deeply theological act.

[00:39:00] When we speak about the fear of the Lord, we're fundamentally speaking about us attending to God, making him infinitely more relevant than any other actor or factor we face.

[00:39:11] And so as we see these competing elements within technology sort of coming at us and trying to grab our attention, pull us apart,

[00:39:19] we have to figure out ways to resist those and to set them aside so that we can really attend to what the Lord is doing in the world.

[00:39:27] Which brings us back to, of course, the conversation we're having here on Point of View.

[00:39:31] And that is we've really spent a fair amount of time encouraging people to maybe tune in to Point of View,

[00:39:38] to go to the podcast, even go to what we have, all the highlights on Spotify and many other places.

[00:39:46] Because one of the letters that we sent out a while back was about too much information, just information overload.

[00:39:53] Then another one of the letters I sent out recently was about misinformation.

[00:39:57] And between too much information and then false information propagated sometimes through other sources of media,

[00:40:05] you need to find where you find trusted sources of news, information, and commentary.

[00:40:10] And, of course, we hope that people will see that at Point of View

[00:40:14] and hope that they've appreciated even the conversation we've had with you today here on your book.

[00:40:18] Yeah, thank you very much.

[00:40:21] Because I think that's kind of what we need to address.

[00:40:23] But one last time, let me, again, encourage people,

[00:40:26] if they would like to know a little bit more about what you are doing,

[00:40:30] we have a link at themudycenter.org.

[00:40:34] So there's a great opportunity for you to find out more about the D.L. Moody Center.

[00:40:39] And so I would certainly encourage you to actually go to that particular website.

[00:40:44] And if you're interested in the book on serpents and doves,

[00:40:47] Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness, you can click on that button.

[00:40:52] And, again, that is an opportunity for you to also know a little bit more about what is available in this resource.

[00:40:59] Thirteen different chapters I think is put together in such a way that would probably provide for you

[00:41:05] a great opportunity to study it individually.

[00:41:08] But it's put in a nice structure where if you'd like to have an ongoing conversation

[00:41:13] about what is your social responsibility, I think you're going to find that very helpful.

[00:41:18] Let me also commend to you some of the other books by James Spencer.

[00:41:21] Of course, he produces a weekly radio program, Useful to God, based on one of his books.

[00:41:26] And then, of course, a podcast, which is called Thinking Christian, also based on one of his books.

[00:41:31] And so you can find all of those resources there as well.

[00:41:34] But as we wind down, I just thought I might mention once again,

[00:41:38] we want to be your trusted source for news, information, and commentary.

[00:41:42] If you appreciate this book or other conversations we have,

[00:41:46] hope that you might visit the website at pointofview.net.

[00:41:50] A couple of things you can do.

[00:41:51] First of all, if you'd like to listen to this again,

[00:41:53] or if you'd like to pass it on to someone else that might benefit,

[00:41:58] click on that red button that says Watch or Listen.

[00:42:01] And so that is the case.

[00:42:02] If you want to find out a little bit more about some of the other resources

[00:42:06] we've been making available, including my Viewpoints commentary, that's there as well.

[00:42:11] And then there's, of course, a button that says Donate.

[00:42:13] And I hope that as we certainly move through this very tumultuous time

[00:42:19] that we will be talking about things like politics and cultural issues and the rest,

[00:42:24] you might consider supporting this ministry

[00:42:26] because that is certainly a place where you can join with us as well.

[00:42:30] Many other places where you can connect up with us.

[00:42:32] Of course, we have a link to the podcast.

[00:42:34] You can listen to that anytime.

[00:42:36] And I mentioned just a minute ago the Point of View Highlights on Spotify.

[00:42:41] Megan puts that together.

[00:42:42] And so if you know somebody that says,

[00:42:44] look, I'm not going to listen to a two-hour radio program,

[00:42:47] but I might listen to about eight to nine, ten minutes worth,

[00:42:51] well, then I certainly would encourage them to subscribe.

[00:42:54] And we've made buttons available for you to do that as well.

[00:42:58] All sorts of great resources.

[00:42:59] We've talked about being a Christian and being light in darkness.

[00:43:03] And you're listening to Point of View.

[00:43:11] The Bible tells us not to worry.

[00:43:14] And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:43:19] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry.

[00:43:23] God gives us a next step.

[00:43:26] He says we need to pray.

[00:43:28] But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:43:32] And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement,

[00:43:38] a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation.

[00:43:43] Each week you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans,

[00:43:48] along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:43:54] We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email

[00:43:58] so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:44:02] Will you commit to Pray for America?

[00:44:05] Go to pointofview.net.

[00:44:09] Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe.

[00:44:14] Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:44:17] Click on the Pray for America banner.

[00:44:20] Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America.

[00:44:28] Point of View will continue after this.