Point of View November 29, 2024 – Hour 2 : Leading a Church in a Time of Sexual Questioning

[00:00:04] Live, this is Point of View, Anderson.

[00:00:44] And so if you are in the pastorate, you will certainly benefit from this.

[00:00:49] But even if you're just in a church, maybe an elder, a deacon or just a church member,

[00:00:54] or a parent who all of a sudden hears your daughter or a friend's daughter come home and say,

[00:01:00] you know, I think I'm a lesbian, or maybe a son saying, you know, maybe I'm really a girl in a boy's body.

[00:01:07] How do you respond?

[00:01:08] And I think you're going to get a lot of great biblical insight and a lot of practical information from our good friend,

[00:01:14] Bruce Miller, who is the senior pastor of Christ Fellowship in McKinney.

[00:01:19] He's also the chairman of the board of One Heart McKinney.

[00:01:22] Talk more about that in just a minute.

[00:01:24] The author of at least a dozen books, including this one on leading a church in time of sexual questioning,

[00:01:29] as well as a book that I quote quite often, Life and Rhythm.

[00:01:33] And also is an individual that has graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary.

[00:01:38] He has taught systematic theology at Dallas Seminary.

[00:01:41] He also founded and led the Centers for Church-Based Training.

[00:01:45] And it is just a delight, Bruce, to see your face and have you in studio with us today.

[00:01:49] Oh, what an honor to be here, Kirby.

[00:01:50] Thanks for inviting me to be on the show.

[00:01:52] We were reflecting on how many decades we've known each other.

[00:01:55] And it's been a lot.

[00:01:56] It goes back more than 40 years.

[00:01:58] Yes, so it does.

[00:02:00] So let's get into this.

[00:02:01] You have written quite a number of other books.

[00:02:03] And I think last time we had you on talking about Rhythm, which we certainly think was an excellent book, as well as many others.

[00:02:09] But here, 13 chapters really that comes out of your own experience of what do you say if you're a pastor when somebody says,

[00:02:18] I need to talk to you because I really have these feelings and I don't know how to relate to them.

[00:02:24] Or a parent comes to you and says, my daughter said something and I really just don't know what to say.

[00:02:31] Well, I hear those all the time.

[00:02:33] And it's an issue in our families.

[00:02:35] It's an issue in our churches.

[00:02:37] And really, frankly, around the world, it's splitting denominations.

[00:02:41] And, of course, the Methodists in the United States, but more concerned globally, the Anglicans splitting over this.

[00:02:48] But it's so much more personal when it's somebody in your family.

[00:02:52] And as I poll audiences and say, who here has anybody in your extended family who would identify as LGBTQ or somehow non-straight?

[00:03:01] It is almost the entire room.

[00:03:03] Yes.

[00:03:03] That knows somebody in their extended family for whom this is an issue.

[00:03:07] And so my approach is to say really back to what would Jesus do?

[00:03:13] Yes.

[00:03:14] And, again, one of the things I appreciate about the fact is that you kind of use the LGBT plus or Q.

[00:03:20] And you even early on say, look, I'm not trying to offend you.

[00:03:23] We're just trying to use the same kind of nomenclature pronouns and those kinds of things.

[00:03:28] So that is the case.

[00:03:29] But I think most people, if they pull up in your book, the first chapter is talked about, set an example.

[00:03:34] And they thought, oh, wait a minute.

[00:03:35] You're going to be talking about everybody else.

[00:03:36] That's right.

[00:03:37] But the point is, is if you're going to speak the truth in love, you need to look first at your own life.

[00:03:43] And that was, I think, a surprise for many people if they ever opened your book.

[00:03:46] It has.

[00:03:47] It's been a big surprise.

[00:03:48] And when I speak on this, that's usually my first topic.

[00:03:50] And if you're in Christian leadership, you know your number one assignment is to set an example to the flock.

[00:03:57] Yes.

[00:03:57] And yet I don't think we often think about this dimension because it is more private, should be more private sexuality.

[00:04:04] However, we don't have integrity if we haven't dealt with our own stewardship of our bodies.

[00:04:10] Before we start talking about somebody else, you know, Jesus said it so poignantly as a carpenter.

[00:04:15] So you've got to take the plank or the log out of your eye before you look at the splinter in your brother or sister's eye.

[00:04:21] I think it was really well said.

[00:04:23] And again, you are well aware of the fact that if you look at some of the surveys done by Christianity Today and leadership, we have problems in the pastorate.

[00:04:29] So let's get that right on the first step.

[00:04:33] But then you really kind of help us understand how to think about this issue of sexuality.

[00:04:37] So for just a minute, I think I'll step back and let you kind of give us a theology 101 on how to think about this issue sexually from a biblical point of view.

[00:04:46] Yeah. You know, I started thinking about a biblical theology of sexuality and realized I didn't have a course like that in seminary.

[00:04:52] No. And there are, though, frankly, a few good books that address that topic.

[00:04:58] But for most of us, it's just not common.

[00:05:01] I mean, we pretty much think, well, I don't know.

[00:05:02] We're just supposed to you're supposed to wait till you're married and.

[00:05:06] And don't have don't have adultery and don't watch porn.

[00:05:09] Yeah. Well, there's got to be more than that.

[00:05:12] Let's hope so. That sounds pretty thin.

[00:05:13] And and in fact, it is. There's a rich theology.

[00:05:17] God made us.

[00:05:18] And so one of the ways, as you well know, to think through a topic biblically is to think through what's called the history of redemption or creation, the fall, redemption in Christ and new creation.

[00:05:29] So just four phases of the way God works in the world.

[00:05:33] And just to make it super simple, it's in creation.

[00:05:36] Sex is good. God made it. It's not bad.

[00:05:39] It's not inherently immoral.

[00:05:41] Now, it's good in marriage between one man and one woman.

[00:05:44] Yes, that's it.

[00:05:46] Period.

[00:05:47] And then in the fall, sex is distorted for everyone.

[00:05:50] We all have desires we shouldn't.

[00:05:52] We can't righteously fulfill.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:54] Everyone's sexuality is as we're born in sin.

[00:05:56] We know that.

[00:05:57] Right.

[00:05:58] From the scripture.

[00:05:58] And then in redemption, of course, there's forgiveness and grace.

[00:06:02] And interestingly, singleness is honored in a unique way since the coming of Christ.

[00:06:07] And then in the new creation, surprising to a lot of people, sex is surpassed.

[00:06:12] Right.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:13] And I've always had people asking about that.

[00:06:15] But we won't get into that one as much as to hit that first point.

[00:06:18] And that is, you said, I never had a class in that.

[00:06:20] You might remember John Reed at Dallas Seminary.

[00:06:23] Yes.

[00:06:23] And he asked me to occasionally come in and teach on some of the hard issues.

[00:06:28] And one of them was divorce.

[00:06:29] One was on cohabitation.

[00:06:30] One was on homosexuality.

[00:06:32] Then later, I didn't do that as much.

[00:06:34] But occasionally, Howard Hendricks, when he was there, would have me come in and we would

[00:06:38] address some of those in the doctoral ministry.

[00:06:40] And what I found was kind of interesting, you can appreciate this as a pastor and certainly

[00:06:44] at the Centers for Church-Based Training.

[00:06:46] When you talk to a seminary student, they're just kind of looking for information.

[00:06:49] In the doctoral ministry program, you're talking to individuals that have been in the pastor

[00:06:54] for a while.

[00:06:54] They're looking for ammunition.

[00:06:56] The questions are very different than that is, okay, I've got divorced people in my congregation.

[00:07:01] How do I speak to that issue?

[00:07:03] I've got couples that are living together.

[00:07:06] What do I do there?

[00:07:07] One of the booklets we have is on cohabitation.

[00:07:09] And it came out of pastors that were saying to me, you know, when I go and talk to a couple

[00:07:15] that's living together and I give them the biblical passages, of which there are quite a bit about

[00:07:19] fornication and everything else, they will blink their eyes and say, yeah, well, are there any other

[00:07:24] reasons why we shouldn't live together?

[00:07:25] Exactly.

[00:07:26] And I spend a fairly significant amount of time pointing out that even secular sociologists

[00:07:31] and psychologists say if you live together before you get married, you increase your

[00:07:36] divorce rate by at least another additional 50%.

[00:07:38] And there are all sorts of problems with it.

[00:07:40] So even the non-Christian world recognizes their problems, which I think is really intriguing

[00:07:46] to me because in some respects that is why we certainly come back to the biblical point

[00:07:51] of view.

[00:07:52] God knew us and God knows what is best for us.

[00:07:55] And we shouldn't be surprised that indeed, if we follow biblical prescriptions, we'll do

[00:08:00] a lot better in life.

[00:08:01] That's right.

[00:08:02] Well, let's take a break.

[00:08:03] And when we come back, we're going to spend some time talking about some of the other specific

[00:08:07] things because what do we say to married couples?

[00:08:11] What do we say to singles?

[00:08:13] What do we say about the LGBTQ issue?

[00:08:16] How do we maybe deal with that issue of same sex marriage?

[00:08:20] Do we actually go to a same sex wedding?

[00:08:23] What about people in the church?

[00:08:26] What about people that have been hurt, sexual sin and hurting and healing and all those kinds

[00:08:31] of issues?

[00:08:32] So we're going to try to cover as much as we can in an hour.

[00:08:35] It's all part of this book, Leading a Church in a Time of Sexual Questioning.

[00:08:39] It is written by Bruce Miller.

[00:08:41] It's been out for quite some time and we have information about it on our website.

[00:08:44] And we'll be right back.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] A book I've been reading by Mitchell Ashkew has a chapter with the arresting title, Fiat

[00:09:07] Money Destroyed the Nuclear Family.

[00:09:09] It is a reminder of the devastating social effects from the economy due to the decreasing

[00:09:14] value of the dollar.

[00:09:15] A nuclear family consists of a father, mother and children.

[00:09:19] The family is the foundation of society.

[00:09:21] He argues that the rise of fiat currency has weakened the nuclear family.

[00:09:25] And he also acknowledges there are other factors such as shifting cultural attitudes

[00:09:29] towards marriage and family.

[00:09:30] The decreasing value of the dollar, he argues, has turned America into a nation of dual income

[00:09:35] households.

[00:09:36] It is becoming less and less possible for someone earning an average income to support their

[00:09:41] family.

[00:09:41] We've seen this generational shift over the last century.

[00:09:45] He observed that his grandparents, born in the 1930s, raised four children on a single

[00:09:49] income from his grandfather's job.

[00:09:52] Grandmother stayed home and was able to raise the children.

[00:09:54] They were also able to own a home.

[00:09:57] As I've mentioned in previous commentaries, home ownership is out of reach for a majority

[00:10:01] of Americans.

[00:10:02] The median family income is not enough to provide a 10% down payment and mortgage payments not

[00:10:09] greater than 30% of their income.

[00:10:11] The price of a home in the 1950s and 60s was equal to about three years worth of income.

[00:10:16] Today, the price of a home is equal to at least 10 years worth of income.

[00:10:20] House prices went up, but wages stayed flat.

[00:10:23] Finally, the lack of financial stability dissuades would-be parents from having children.

[00:10:28] The latest surveys found that finances were the major reason married couples decided not

[00:10:33] to have children or at least postponed having them.

[00:10:36] America's families are in decline because the American dollar is in decline.

[00:10:41] I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:47] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net.

[00:10:53] That's pointofview.net.

[00:10:57] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:03] In fact, once again, let me just mention that we do have a link to Bruce Miller.

[00:11:08] It's brucebmiller.com.

[00:11:10] And so you can go to our website or you can just type that in and you're going to see

[00:11:15] Christ-centered wisdom for complex issues.

[00:11:17] He's been writing on all sorts of issues and I follow him in various contexts as well.

[00:11:22] So first of all, you will find that.

[00:11:24] So you can go to brucebmiller.com.

[00:11:27] This book has been out for some time, so you might be able to find it in your local bookstore,

[00:11:31] but we have a link for you to get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:11:36] But it also, as I understand, has an audio CD.

[00:11:39] So if you wanted to have access to that, I just think it is a sort of must-reading

[00:11:43] for anybody that's doing ministry.

[00:11:46] And so whether you're formally a minister, whether you're a counselor,

[00:11:50] or whether you're just doing ministry because you're discipling people, I think you'll benefit from that.

[00:11:54] So, Bruce, let's get into the next chapter and that's the easy one, sort of.

[00:11:58] And that is how to lead married couples and singles.

[00:12:02] But again, you call it more than pleasure because we need to have a full-orbed understanding

[00:12:06] of what God intends for sex, right?

[00:12:08] A lot of people reduce sexuality to merely physical pleasure, which is really a mistake.

[00:12:13] There's so much more in the scripture than that.

[00:12:16] And right out of Genesis, we know that we're made as one flesh.

[00:12:19] And our sexuality affirms our union in Christ and a union together as husband and wife as one flesh.

[00:12:26] And then, yes, there is pleasure, but also procreation.

[00:12:28] We're to multiply and fill the earth right out of Genesis.

[00:12:32] And then, right out of Ephesians 5, we know that as a couple, we mirror Christ in the church.

[00:12:37] And so we demonstrate God's exclusive love in our own sexuality.

[00:12:42] What I might just mention is in each one of these chapters, there is a discussion set of questions at the end.

[00:12:47] And obviously, anybody can have this book and read through it and benefit tremendously.

[00:12:53] And you also have an appendix, which we'll get to a little bit later, even on sample sermon preparation and the rest.

[00:13:00] But the bottom line is that anybody that would like to have a discussion group.

[00:13:04] And, Bruce, we have people that head up small groups and Bible fellowships and life groups and others.

[00:13:15] And I've had elder groups and deacon groups and pastoral staffs who will read it together.

[00:13:23] And youth ministries, because it's such an issue in student ministry among teenagers, of course.

[00:13:29] And so those groups have found it to be really helpful.

[00:13:32] Well, let's get into the controversial ones.

[00:13:34] And that is same-sex sexuality, because that is a big issue.

[00:13:40] Years ago, I wrote a book on homosexuality.

[00:13:42] And we've talked about maybe updating it, because I wrote it before we had the decision coming down of Borgafel.

[00:13:49] Although we already had all sorts of other places in the Commonwealth in Massachusetts and other places where same-sex marriage ceremonies were taking place.

[00:13:58] But we have, in some respects, again, are now dealing with an issue, which I hope at least seminary students now begin to think through.

[00:14:08] But this caught a lot of the individuals off guard, because they never anticipated that someday in this country two men or two women could get married legally.

[00:14:19] And that's exactly what we're dealing with now.

[00:14:22] So how do we deal with that?

[00:14:23] Because in some respects, they might say, well, if it's legal, what's the problem?

[00:14:27] Yeah, I think you have to distinguish what is biblical morality that honors God and what is legal.

[00:14:33] Yeah.

[00:14:33] And so there are – it is legal in the United States, and so it is – some people can legally get married.

[00:14:41] However, just because something's legal, as you know, doesn't make it moral.

[00:14:45] Right.

[00:14:46] And so we have to look at what does the Scripture say?

[00:14:49] And the Scripture is very clear, Old and New Testament.

[00:14:51] There are seven direct passages, four in the Old Testament, three in the New, that directly address sexual activity between two men or, in Romans 1, two women.

[00:15:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:02] And the Bible says it's not God's plan.

[00:15:04] It's against God's design.

[00:15:06] This is not the way God made human beings to relate to each other sexually.

[00:15:11] And it's not an issue that's brand new to us, because it was addressed in the Old Testament.

[00:15:15] Yes.

[00:15:16] You know, thousands of years ago.

[00:15:18] This is an issue that has plagued humanity ever since the fall.

[00:15:21] Yes.

[00:15:23] Well, and you have a section here, which you just alluded to, of the seven direct passages.

[00:15:28] But here's where we start running into difficulty, Bruce, and that is there are, if you will, gay theologians out here that are saying,

[00:15:37] well, when you look at Genesis 19, you know, the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality.

[00:15:43] Maybe it was in hospitality or something of that nature.

[00:15:46] Or in Leviticus 18 or Leviticus 20, well, that probably doesn't apply because, after all, it also says you're not supposed to wear clothes of mixed threads.

[00:15:57] And I can see you're doing that.

[00:15:58] Or you're not supposed to eat shellfish.

[00:16:00] And I've seen you at Joe's Crab Shack or something like that.

[00:16:04] So, and even in the New Testament, well, maybe it was just the Apostle Paul had a bias.

[00:16:08] So, as you even take people to these direct passages, we have to actually study our Bible a little bit more and know what some of the answers are going to be, right?

[00:16:17] And those are great questions.

[00:16:18] And you're exactly right, Kirby.

[00:16:19] People raise those objections.

[00:16:21] And I address it briefly in my book.

[00:16:23] I think a more full treatment of those are questions you're really wrestling with would be Preston Sprinkle's book, People to be Loved.

[00:16:30] But it's really good to learn how to read your Bible better.

[00:16:34] So, you want to look, when you're looking at Old Testament and New Testament, what's repeated in the New Testament?

[00:16:39] There are some things in the Old Testament, like shellfish, that are not repeated.

[00:16:42] In fact, Jesus says it's just fine.

[00:16:44] I had this big sheet came down for Peter.

[00:16:46] But actually, in the New Testament, it's the scripture repeats that men are not to have sex with men or women with women.

[00:16:53] And that'll let you know this was not just for the Old Testament.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:56] So again, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians, and other passages.

[00:16:58] You mentioned in passing, I forgot to do that, that the actual preface and foreword by this is by Preston Sprinkle, who is the president of the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender.

[00:17:08] And an individual that brings a lot to the conversation and all sorts of others.

[00:17:13] Of course, you've had Exodus International and Joe Dallas and many others.

[00:17:16] But even as you go through those issues, you then have another chapter, which I thought was so good.

[00:17:22] I just appreciate the practical nature of all this.

[00:17:25] Thanks, Kirby.

[00:17:25] Where people ask questions.

[00:17:27] Well, can you be a Christian and be gay?

[00:17:29] Is it appropriate to refer yourself as a gay Christian?

[00:17:32] And really, you're starting to get us into that issue of gender roles, sexual behavior, attraction, orientation.

[00:17:38] In other words, I can have certain temptations and not sin.

[00:17:43] That's right.

[00:17:43] Was Jesus tempted?

[00:17:44] Yes.

[00:17:45] In all ways.

[00:17:46] Did Jesus sin?

[00:17:47] No.

[00:17:47] So obviously, there's a need to make some distinctions here.

[00:17:51] And that's again why I think this practical chapter is so helpful.

[00:17:55] I think this is a place where a lot of Christians struggle.

[00:17:58] And just some simple distinctions.

[00:17:59] Just what you just said is so good, Kirby.

[00:18:02] Because the difference between temptation and sin is crucial.

[00:18:06] So is temptation a sin?

[00:18:08] No.

[00:18:09] But the word desire trips us up.

[00:18:11] Is a homosexual desire sinful?

[00:18:14] Well, it depends.

[00:18:16] If it is lust, yes, it is.

[00:18:19] Lust, mental sin, mental lust, heterosexual or homosexual is sinful.

[00:18:24] If the desire is a temptation, then no, it's not a sin.

[00:18:30] So the word gay can be a little tricky.

[00:18:32] When people say I'm gay, that can mean a couple of things.

[00:18:36] It can mean I'm involved in sexual activity with someone of my same sex.

[00:18:39] That's sin.

[00:18:41] It often and more commonly means I'm attracted romantically or and otherwise to my own sex more than to the opposite sex.

[00:18:50] That in and of itself is not sinful.

[00:18:53] And so could a Christian be gay and be a Christian?

[00:18:57] A couple of answers.

[00:18:58] One, can you be a sinner and be a Christian?

[00:19:01] Uh oh.

[00:19:02] I hope so.

[00:19:03] We're all in trouble.

[00:19:04] Yeah.

[00:19:04] Of course, you shouldn't sin.

[00:19:06] But can you be can you have a sinful attraction or temptation and be a mature Christian?

[00:19:13] Yes, you can.

[00:19:13] Again, I hope so.

[00:19:14] Or else we're all.

[00:19:14] And I used to think that as you mature in Christ, your temptations would decrease.

[00:19:19] Right.

[00:19:20] And then I started thinking about Jesus and he was pretty mature.

[00:19:23] And he probably faced intent.

[00:19:25] Some scholars think his temptations were worse than ours because he never gave in.

[00:19:29] Yes.

[00:19:30] So what really maturity is the growing ability to flee temptation and resist the devil.

[00:19:35] Yes.

[00:19:36] Not a decrease in temptation.

[00:19:37] And a lot of this, if I can use one of those big theological words we use is sanctification.

[00:19:42] That's correct.

[00:19:43] You know, am I justified by faith?

[00:19:45] I became a Christian.

[00:19:46] Uh, sanctification takes a long time and it takes a lifetime if you think about that walking

[00:19:51] with Christ.

[00:19:52] And you also make a distinction between identity.

[00:19:55] Um, sometimes people say I'm a Christian that's gay versus I'm gay.

[00:20:01] And I've had individuals.

[00:20:03] I remember one time on a radio program, somebody called in and says, well, I'm a homosexual.

[00:20:06] I said, I'd rather you will call yourself a person who's created in God's image, who has

[00:20:11] homosexual temptations.

[00:20:13] I think it's probably a step down and probably not even appropriate for you to identify yourself

[00:20:19] as a homosexual.

[00:20:21] Most of us don't come up and say I'm a heterosexual, you know, or I'm a male or, you know, I mean,

[00:20:26] we just, this is me, you know?

[00:20:28] Uh, and so there's a sense in which sometimes this issue of identity and attraction gets all

[00:20:33] mixed up too, doesn't it?

[00:20:34] Yeah, it certainly does.

[00:20:35] And all of us should identify as a Christian identify with Christ first and foremost,

[00:20:40] we're to love God with all our heart, soul and mind.

[00:20:42] Um, however, we have secondary identities.

[00:20:45] Your leader radio show, I'm a pastor.

[00:20:48] Those are true statements about us.

[00:20:50] And it's fine to make a true statement about secondary identity traits, but not have that

[00:20:55] be your primary identity.

[00:20:56] Let's take a break.

[00:20:57] We've only covered a little bit of this book, leading a church in a time of sexual questioning.

[00:21:02] If you'd like to know more about Bruce B.

[00:21:04] Miller, we have a link to the website.

[00:21:06] If you'd like to know more about the book, I suspect a few of you would probably like to

[00:21:10] order it right now.

[00:21:11] And of course, if you'd like to listen to it, that's available as well.

[00:21:13] We have all that information on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:21:17] We'll come back.

[00:21:18] We've really only tackled one tough issue.

[00:21:21] We've got a few more issues to tackle and we'll do that right after this.

[00:21:24] At Point of View, we believe there is power in prayer.

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[00:23:01] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management

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[00:23:09] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:12] Continue our conversation today with Bruce Miller.

[00:23:15] And you can go to brucebmiller.com.

[00:23:17] And first of all, you're going to find all sorts of great resources.

[00:23:20] Now, there is a weekly clarifying wisdom, if you will, blog post or email, whatever you want to call it.

[00:23:28] I have had a chance to read that over the years from Bruce Miller.

[00:23:31] So there's a place where you can put your name and email and sign up.

[00:23:34] So there's a place where you can find out.

[00:23:36] Of course, he also is helping churches with consultation.

[00:23:39] And that is available.

[00:23:41] There's all sorts of information about him.

[00:23:44] And of course, we also have a link to the book, which has been out for some time.

[00:23:49] Because of that, you may be able to find it in your local bookstore.

[00:23:52] I always want you to support your local bookstore.

[00:23:54] But since it came out many years ago, probably the best way to find it is go to our link.

[00:23:59] You can get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:24:02] It's fairly inexpensive.

[00:24:03] And then there's an audio CD that would go with that as well.

[00:24:06] So if you would like to have more information, you would like to maybe use that as a teaching or training.

[00:24:11] Bruce, you've made it very easy.

[00:24:13] And because we have you there, if somebody wants to ask you a question, have you come to the church?

[00:24:18] I know recently you were speaking on this in, of all places, Cuba.

[00:24:22] That's right.

[00:24:23] And the churches in the States and Canada, all that.

[00:24:25] Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't think this would be an issue in Cuba, but it is right now.

[00:24:29] Yeah, it shocked me.

[00:24:30] Fidel Castro's daughter has driven a, frankly, liberal sexual agenda in which they have rewritten

[00:24:37] their what they call their family code.

[00:24:39] Wow.

[00:24:40] And now same sex marriage is approved.

[00:24:42] But beyond that, mandated to teach a pro-homosexual ethic in school.

[00:24:46] I personally spoke with a young lady in her 20s who resigned as a teacher because of what she was forced to teach in Cuba.

[00:24:54] So this is an issue well beyond the United States.

[00:24:57] You can't really go anywhere on the planet where you don't run into this.

[00:25:01] That's right.

[00:25:01] And oftentimes it's being forced on various smaller countries by the United States because of the people we've had in the administration.

[00:25:08] So that is the case.

[00:25:10] But let's bring it back to the church for just a minute, because we're talking about same sex marriage.

[00:25:14] What about people that are sexual sinners?

[00:25:17] Do we have any examples of Jesus addressing this issue?

[00:25:20] Yeah, great question.

[00:25:20] Because people say, OK, I see what the truth is in the Bible.

[00:25:23] But now practically speaking, what do I do with someone in my family or my workmate or my neighbor?

[00:25:30] And so I say, look, we need to be more.

[00:25:32] We're not enough like Jesus.

[00:25:33] We need to be more like Jesus.

[00:25:35] And Jesus responded full of grace and truth.

[00:25:37] John one.

[00:25:38] So we need to be full of grace, full of truth.

[00:25:41] And people tend to think if you really accent truth, you can have to decrease grace.

[00:25:45] And if you're full of grace with no limit, you'll decrease truth.

[00:25:48] You need to hold them in balance or intention.

[00:25:51] Totally false.

[00:25:52] Mm hmm.

[00:25:52] Jesus was full of both with no tension.

[00:25:55] Yeah.

[00:25:55] And accurately understood.

[00:25:56] Truth speaks grace.

[00:25:58] And grace is a truth.

[00:25:59] The mistake there is to think truth is to be harsh and grace is to be compromising.

[00:26:03] But how did you just live it out?

[00:26:05] If he's our model?

[00:26:06] Well, he actually had three sexual conversations.

[00:26:10] I call it really conversations with three sexual centers.

[00:26:14] That's right.

[00:26:14] That are a great example for us.

[00:26:16] So, again, you have, of course, a woman living with a man.

[00:26:18] You have the adulterous woman and you have a prostitute.

[00:26:21] So let's work our way through it.

[00:26:22] Because in John four, you have the woman at the well.

[00:26:25] And that, of course, is in Samaria.

[00:26:27] And again, it is so interesting of anybody that's ever read that certainly understands how Jesus spoke.

[00:26:34] Anybody who's watched The Chosen has seen that act out as well.

[00:26:38] So we have a good example here of somebody who is living with a man.

[00:26:42] And that's cohabitation, isn't it?

[00:26:43] And you could imagine, I think, to help us at this conversation, it's not a stretch of application to say, imagine she was lesbian or somehow LGBTQ non straight.

[00:26:53] How would Jesus have the conversation?

[00:26:54] I think the same way.

[00:26:56] And he was full of truth.

[00:26:58] He said, the man you're living with now is not your husband.

[00:27:00] You've been with five husbands.

[00:27:01] And then he offered her a living water.

[00:27:04] And then, remarkably, she ran right back to her town, Sychar, and invited the whole town to come meet this amazing man she met.

[00:27:12] And in some ways, Kirby, I think she's the first evangelist.

[00:27:15] This is John chapter four.

[00:27:17] I think so.

[00:27:17] First living in his ministry.

[00:27:18] Got to be the first.

[00:27:19] The whole town comes out.

[00:27:21] And now, was she still living with a man?

[00:27:25] Well, of course.

[00:27:26] This has just been a matter of a few minutes or a few hours.

[00:27:29] And yet, look how she's serving the Lord.

[00:27:31] So I think Jesus demonstrates an amazing grace toward this woman and breaking boundaries because she was a woman, a Samaritan, living, somebody she wasn't married to, at a well in the middle of the day.

[00:27:44] And yet, he reached out.

[00:27:46] And I think it's a great model for us to reach out beyond some of our Christian taboos and barriers and boundaries to people who would be marginalized in our day or not accepted by all Christian people.

[00:27:57] Sure.

[00:27:58] Let's take the next one.

[00:27:59] And that's John eight.

[00:28:00] Of course, that wasn't the original manuscripts.

[00:28:02] But I think it's probably, again, a story that we can hold to.

[00:28:06] And that is now a woman caught in adultery brought to Jesus.

[00:28:09] That's right.

[00:28:10] And most people think this is historically accurate, although it's probably not in the original manuscripts.

[00:28:15] And I ask, what did Jesus say to her?

[00:28:17] And I find audiences yell two things simultaneously.

[00:28:20] Half the crowd says, he said, go and sin no more.

[00:28:23] The other half of the crowd says, he said, neither do I condemn you.

[00:28:27] Well, he said both.

[00:28:29] He also said, you know, who else?

[00:28:31] Who has who's going to throw the first stone?

[00:28:33] And interestingly, once again, well, in this case, we do it.

[00:28:36] Did she commit adultery?

[00:28:38] A hundred percent.

[00:28:38] She was caught in the act.

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:41] And he has grace and truth.

[00:28:43] Now, which did he say first?

[00:28:46] The first thing he said was, neither do I condemn you.

[00:28:48] And then he said, go and sin no more.

[00:28:50] Yes.

[00:28:50] I think it's not a command, but I think it's a good model of leading with grace, following with truth for all of us.

[00:28:57] And here's the question.

[00:28:59] If she said she was guilty of sin, how did he not condemn her and still be a holy, righteous God?

[00:29:06] I mean, Jesus couldn't compromise holiness or righteousness.

[00:29:10] So how can a holy God not condemn what's clearly sinful?

[00:29:16] This is the heart of the gospel.

[00:29:17] Yeah.

[00:29:18] This is the whole message that none of us deserve grace.

[00:29:21] And because of the cross and what Jesus did for us, we're all forgiven.

[00:29:24] But it's so easy to think of we, the good people and the bad centers, especially on this topic of LGBT.

[00:29:31] And again, when you talk about truth and grace, sometimes I say we have our biblical convictions and our biblical compassion.

[00:29:37] And again, oftentimes in the fundamentalist churches, we've been real good on the biblical convictions, not on the compassion.

[00:29:43] In a lot of the liberal churches, biblical compassion, not biblical convictions.

[00:29:46] But we don't have to choose.

[00:29:48] And so you can see that with the first two.

[00:29:51] But let's mention one other one.

[00:29:53] And that is in Luke seven.

[00:29:54] You have now a party where a woman is washing his feet.

[00:29:58] And it is very likely because the writer describes her as having lived a sinful life.

[00:30:05] Most likely she was a prostitute.

[00:30:07] That's right.

[00:30:08] And this is a fascinating chapter.

[00:30:10] And I'd encourage you to look at all three of these stories, looking at what did Jesus do and say?

[00:30:15] And how could that be a model for me as I deal with sexual sinners in this case, people out of the LGBTQ community?

[00:30:24] And she's washing his feet with her hair.

[00:30:26] And the Pharisee is thinking in his mind, doesn't Jesus know who this woman is that she's a sinful woman?

[00:30:32] Like you say, probably a prostitute.

[00:30:34] We don't know how she was dressed.

[00:30:35] How did they know she was a prostitute?

[00:30:37] She was probably known for that.

[00:30:39] It's a small village.

[00:30:41] And Jesus says, can I tell you a story?

[00:30:45] And he tells a story of a man who owed a small debt, say $50.

[00:30:50] And then a man who owned a huge debt, let's say $50,000.

[00:30:54] And both are forgiven.

[00:30:55] He said, which one would love more?

[00:30:59] The one who is forgiven much.

[00:31:01] And then Jesus goes on to apply it and say, this woman is forgiven much.

[00:31:06] And you didn't wash my feet.

[00:31:07] And here she is washing her feet with my hair.

[00:31:09] And he forgives her.

[00:31:11] And it's just this amazing story.

[00:31:13] Again, you can imagine what if she was identified as a lesbian or a trans person?

[00:31:18] How would Jesus have handled the conversation?

[00:31:21] And how tempting is it for us to be like the religious leader and how we would have treated the lady?

[00:31:27] You know, you talk about good and bad.

[00:31:29] That gets into a section.

[00:31:31] You talk about leading conversations with our posture.

[00:31:34] You know, whether we have a kneeling posture or a different kind of attitude and being willing to listen attentively.

[00:31:41] Sometimes the best witnessing is where we are not talking, but where we're listening and really showing our love for an individual.

[00:31:49] I have found that to be so true.

[00:31:52] Jesus listened.

[00:31:53] He asked questions more than he gave answers.

[00:31:55] And we don't know people's story.

[00:31:57] So two ladies called our church and they said, we'd like some premarital counseling.

[00:32:01] My receptionist young lady said, what is she was made her nervous.

[00:32:05] She called me and what do you want me to do?

[00:32:06] I said, I'd love to meet with them.

[00:32:08] She said, you would.

[00:32:09] Yeah, of course, it is not biblically correct for two women to marry each other.

[00:32:13] But I thought, why did they call my church?

[00:32:15] Where are they coming from?

[00:32:16] Well, you have no idea.

[00:32:17] They walked in the door.

[00:32:19] They looked pretty rough.

[00:32:20] Very, very like almost like homeless.

[00:32:22] They came into my office and told me their story.

[00:32:25] Who would have ever imagined?

[00:32:26] And one had been in prison multiple times.

[00:32:29] Another, her mother was helping raise the children.

[00:32:32] She said, I've never had any human being accept me, except my dad.

[00:32:36] And he's dead.

[00:32:37] And I said, well, I want you to know that God does.

[00:32:40] And we do here at our church.

[00:32:41] We would accept you and welcome you here.

[00:32:43] And I thought, why did they come to see me to an evangelical church?

[00:32:47] And anyway, as they told her, I'll tell you why.

[00:32:50] As they told their whole story, I got a chance to share the gospel and share God's love for them.

[00:32:55] They said, well, we heard in the state of Texas that if you went to approved counseling for, I forget what it is, eight hours, you could get your marriage license for free, which is about $90.

[00:33:05] They said, we thought we could endure listening to a pastor for about eight hours to get our marriage license.

[00:33:10] Who could have known?

[00:33:12] I never saw them again, but I took the time to listen and was able to be Christ to them and share his love.

[00:33:18] What a great story.

[00:33:20] Well, we are continuing our conversation here after the break with leading a church in the time of sexual questioning.

[00:33:27] And it is written by Bruce Miller.

[00:33:29] And again, we've covered many of the topics.

[00:33:31] But I think when we come back, we'll deal with what about this issue of sexual sin and healing.

[00:33:37] And there's so much more, but it's certainly a very important resource.

[00:33:40] And we encourage you to go to the website to find out more.

[00:33:43] We'll be right back.

[00:33:55] Many times over the past decade or so, I have muttered under my breath, the emperor has no clothes.

[00:34:01] The phrase, of course, is from Hans Christian Andersen's tale, The Emperor's New Clothes, in which dishonest tailors provide a vain king with garments, clothes that don't actually exist.

[00:34:12] The swindlers explain that they are weavers of fabric that would be invisible to anyone who was unfit for his office or who was unusually stupid.

[00:34:21] Naturally, the king buys in.

[00:34:22] The townspeople timidly go along with the charade, praising the Newt Emperor's outfits.

[00:34:27] One day, as the emperor's entourage carries his fake train, a little boy calls out the truth that no one else dared admit.

[00:34:35] He hasn't got anything on.

[00:34:36] In a recent column, The Wall Street Journal's Gerard Baker pointed to this year's election as an emperor's new clothes event where voters repudiated a regime of oppressive insanities.

[00:34:47] He listed five of the most destructive and unpopular strictures.

[00:34:51] First, we are somehow obligated to grant people who have stolen into this country many privileges of citizenship and, contrary to our laws, to give them sanctuary.

[00:35:01] Second, to save the planet, we must severely limit the use of one of the greatest reservoirs of natural energy resources on Earth.

[00:35:09] Third, we must believe we are a racist nation.

[00:35:12] So, Mr. Baker writes,

[00:35:13] To right the past wrong of treating people based on the color of their skin, we must treat people based on the color of their skin.

[00:35:20] Fourth, we're to reject the scientific concept of biological sex.

[00:35:25] Gender is a social construct and people should be allowed to choose theirs.

[00:35:28] If deemed necessary, the state may circumvent parents to provide troubled youngsters with medical and even surgical transitions.

[00:35:36] And finally, certain views are misinformation and those who hold them are deserving of punishment.

[00:35:42] Voters repudiated these bad ideas.

[00:35:44] Now, perhaps we can re-clothe the emperor.

[00:35:47] For Point of View, I'm Penna Dexter.

[00:35:49] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:36:00] Back once again, talking about the book, Leading a Church in a Time of Sexual Questioning.

[00:36:04] And actually, if you add in the sections on sexual questions about church ministry and sexual questions and common issues, 13 chapters.

[00:36:12] So, we've done a pretty good job of covering most of those.

[00:36:15] But these first 10 or 11, just very important.

[00:36:18] And we would be remiss, Bruce, if we didn't talk about chapter 10, sexual sin and healing.

[00:36:24] And as a pastor, you've had people come up to you who have been Christians for decades,

[00:36:29] who still feel the need to get forgiveness for something that I'm sure God has already forgiven them for.

[00:36:36] That's right. I find sexual sin to be like a rusty nail in an old piece of wood.

[00:36:42] If you've ever tried to remove those nails with your hammer, it's just so hard.

[00:36:46] They're stuck in there.

[00:36:47] And it's like we can accept God's forgiveness for every sin in our life except sexual sin.

[00:36:52] And I've had people in their 50s and 60s tell me about something that happened when they were a teenager

[00:36:58] and that they so deeply regret now, even years later, even maybe they haven't told their spouse.

[00:37:03] A gentleman was telling me about growing up in a boy's home for a period of time and things happened among the boys that he hadn't told anyone.

[00:37:12] As he told me, his wife was standing next to him and she said, he's never told this to anyone.

[00:37:16] Wow.

[00:37:17] And so, I wondered why.

[00:37:19] And 1 Corinthians 6 is an amazing passage about the body and it describes what I call a Trinitarian theology of the body,

[00:37:26] that we are resurrected by the Father, we're united to Christ bodily, we're members of his body literally,

[00:37:33] and we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

[00:37:35] Our body is called the temple of the Holy Spirit, not just our soul.

[00:37:38] And I think there's something about sexual sin that goes really deep.

[00:37:42] And so, I think it's important for each of us to face our own sexual sin and receive God's grace, but that's not easy.

[00:37:53] Well, again, you talk about resurrection.

[00:37:55] God the Father will raise your body.

[00:37:56] Union, Christ is united to the body.

[00:38:00] And then, of course, presence.

[00:38:01] The Holy Spirit lives there.

[00:38:02] But then you take people through a liturgy.

[00:38:05] And again, you're a Bible church.

[00:38:07] Well, we think of liturgy or in Anglican or Episcopalian.

[00:38:10] But here is the idea, and you go into it for in some depth of confessing our sin.

[00:38:15] You have scripture reading.

[00:38:17] You have then even a physical response, receiving the grace from Jesus.

[00:38:23] Additional scripture reading and prayer and physical response.

[00:38:27] And then more scripture reading before the end.

[00:38:29] So, you take people through kind of a lengthy process.

[00:38:32] And you might explain why that is the case.

[00:38:34] Yeah, it's because I found it just so challenging not to understand cognitively that God forgives me, but to embrace it in my person and my being for sexual sin.

[00:38:46] So, I wrote this liturgy, which just means an order of worship.

[00:38:49] Right.

[00:38:50] And it's a process.

[00:38:52] It's not too long, but it's a little journey you can go on by yourself or with others.

[00:38:56] But I think probably this is more of a personal thing.

[00:38:58] But you read some scripture and pray and move from kneeling to open hands, receiving God's grace and forgiveness.

[00:39:07] Because it's hard to just snap your fingers and say, okay, God forgave me for my sexual sin.

[00:39:13] It really is a little harder than that.

[00:39:15] But it's so freeing to realize that God has removed your sin as far as the east is from the west.

[00:39:20] So, as you're listening, I would encourage you, even if that's the only part of the book you read, walk through that journey to find the freedom that God has for you that you really are forgiven.

[00:39:30] I've seen that nowhere else.

[00:39:32] So, again, I just commend the book to you for that reason.

[00:39:35] But in the few minutes remaining, let me talk about chapter 11.

[00:39:38] And that is leading an inclusive church community.

[00:39:41] As I pointed out, there's two other chapters.

[00:39:43] There are actually 13 chapters in all because the last two are sexual questions.

[00:39:49] And we could spend a lot of time there.

[00:39:51] But I just thought, as a pastor or speaking to fellow pastors, deacons, elders, church leaders, maybe even Sunday school teachers, how do you develop this in a community, create a safe space and a place where we do teach both truth and grace at the same time?

[00:40:08] Well, I tell you a place I see a lot of folks stumble.

[00:40:11] Now, these are my made-up words, but I call it instant moral holiness and theological accuracy.

[00:40:16] It's an expectation that we only have, typically, of LGBTQ people.

[00:40:22] And it goes like this.

[00:40:23] It's fine for a gay person to come to our church.

[00:40:25] We'd like them to come to our church.

[00:40:26] We're all welcome.

[00:40:27] But when they come, they need to quit doing it and they need to understand and believe God's sexual ethic.

[00:40:33] True.

[00:40:34] But Sunday one?

[00:40:35] Sunday two?

[00:40:37] You know, most of us, we know that as you talked, we talked earlier about sanctification.

[00:40:42] When you come to Christ, if you've never been a Christian, there's a process of growing in holiness that takes a lifetime.

[00:40:50] And then how about our theology?

[00:40:51] Would you say all your theology is totally accurate?

[00:40:53] Well, of course not.

[00:40:54] Of course not.

[00:40:54] You grow in a lifetime of understanding God's word and theology.

[00:40:57] Wouldn't we expect the same for someone who is involved in sexual sin, whether we're talking about homosexuality or transgender kind of issues, that there's going to be a process of two steps forward, one step back, and gradual coming to understanding.

[00:41:13] So I would encourage us very practically to have grace for people to be in process.

[00:41:18] The other part of that is fellowship, koinonia.

[00:41:21] That's right.

[00:41:21] Because it seems to me that we need to have fellowship, friendship, and that provides also the accountability as an individual is growing in grace.

[00:41:28] And I would say that's another place where there's a common misunderstanding.

[00:41:32] And that misunderstanding is that association conveys affirmation, which is actually not the case.

[00:41:40] Jesus ate with sinners and certainly religious people accused of him of being a friend of sinners, a drunken and a glutton.

[00:41:46] So it goes like this.

[00:41:47] A lady in my church came and said, Bruce, I'm in a Bible study with my neighbor.

[00:41:52] I'm thinking, fantastic.

[00:41:53] She said, my neighbor is a lesbian.

[00:41:55] I'm thinking, you mean your lesbian neighbor is willing to have a Bible study with you?

[00:41:58] This is great.

[00:41:59] She said, I'm thinking about quitting.

[00:42:01] And I thought, why?

[00:42:02] Why?

[00:42:03] My goodness.

[00:42:04] Well, I'm scared that she will think I'm affirming her lifestyle.

[00:42:10] I'm like, no, that's the wrong way to go.

[00:42:13] So that's not Jesus-like.

[00:42:16] Yes.

[00:42:17] And then finally, you do actually have a section on justice because that's the other part of this as well.

[00:42:22] So we have grace, charis, alcoignia, but also the idea of justice itself because that's a key element, because we do need to stand for biblical truth.

[00:42:31] And that's surprising for a lot of people is that Christians, we often think about how we might be persecuted in the United States or treated wrongly.

[00:42:39] And then there are cases of that.

[00:42:42] But statistically today, a gay person is far more likely to be mistreated than a Christian in the United States.

[00:42:49] I know it may not be anecdotally how you think about it, but in terms of actual statistics, it might be five times more likely to be mistreated.

[00:42:56] Well, as Christians, we don't think anybody should be mistreated to be bullied or called names or treated unfairly.

[00:43:03] And so shouldn't we be the first ones to stand up for anyone who's being mistreated for any reason?

[00:43:08] And certainly we should.

[00:43:10] But I find if we stand up for a gay person and defend their rights or say it's wrong for them to be mistreated, we almost feel like we're doing something wrong.

[00:43:19] Like, but wait a minute, it's wrong to be engaged in sexual sin.

[00:43:22] Yes, it is.

[00:43:24] But no matter who you are, you're a human being made in God's image for whom Christ died.

[00:43:28] And the reality is in the homeless population of teenagers, there's a disproportionate number of gay and transgender boys and girls.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:40] Well, certainly we want to be involved in helping them.

[00:43:42] And so, again, I just want your church to think about how to begin to reach out and do this in a way that has both truth and grace, our biblical convictions, our biblical compassions.

[00:43:52] And I can't think of a better book than this one, Leading a Church in a Time of Sexual Questioning.

[00:43:58] A veritable who's who of individuals we've had on this program have been endorsing the book for the fact that it's come out all these years.

[00:44:06] And it is something that I would recommend to you as well.

[00:44:08] Also, you can go to BruceBMiller.com.

[00:44:12] And if people sign up, they will get your Clarifying Wisdom email, won't they?

[00:44:17] That's right.

[00:44:17] I hope that's a short, like 300 words once a week to give you a little bit of wisdom.

[00:44:22] And, again, if you want to know more about church consultation and all the other things that he's involved with, this, by the way, is part of a leadership book series out there.

[00:44:30] It's all available at the website at pointofview.net.

[00:44:34] But we also link you to BruceBMiller.com.

[00:44:38] Bruce, it's always great to see you.

[00:44:40] And thank you again for writing such great books.

[00:44:41] Thanks, Kirby.

[00:44:42] What a joy to be on the show with you.

[00:44:44] And thank God for your ministry.

[00:44:45] And I pray it just flourishes more and more.

[00:44:47] And I hope I can be a help to churches out there.

[00:44:50] Well, you know, at a time when sexual norms are changing all the time and we really need to get biblical truth and bring grace and love and everything together,

[00:44:57] I think this is a resource that you would find very helpful.

[00:45:00] So one last time, leading a church in a time of sexual questioning.

[00:45:04] And you've been listening to Point of View.

[00:45:09] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:45:15] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:45:19] People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics.

[00:45:24] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:45:29] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:45:32] You feel like giving up.

[00:45:33] But we can't.

[00:45:35] We shouldn't.

[00:45:36] We must not.

[00:45:37] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:45:42] Never give in.

[00:45:43] Never give in.

[00:45:44] Never, never, never.

[00:45:46] Never yield to force.

[00:45:47] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:45:51] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:45:54] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:46:02] We can't do it alone.

[00:46:04] But together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:46:09] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:46:18] Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151.

[00:46:26] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.