Point of View November 29, 2024 – Hour 1 : Loving Samaritans

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] You know we live in a world that is marked by division, by polarism and pluralism and the need to really begin to reach out and to build bridges rather than barriers.

[00:00:31] And it's really not enough just to simply tell people about the love of God and the love of Jesus Christ and the kindness of God.

[00:00:40] We need to demonstrate that as well. So that's why I'm really excited about this book, Loving Samaritans Radical Kindness in an Us Versus Them World.

[00:00:51] It is published by our good friends at Zondervan and we'll talk more about it in just a minute.

[00:00:56] Of course we have a link to the author which is Pastor or Dr. Terry Christ.

[00:01:00] He is the pastor at City of Grace in Phoenix.

[00:01:03] He has both the THM and a doctor of ministry as well as a business certificate in nonprofit management from Harvard Business School.

[00:01:12] And Terry, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:01:15] Well Kirby, thanks for having me.

[00:01:18] I want to quickly say that just listening to the list of topics that you cover on a regular basis is slightly intimidating.

[00:01:24] So I may be qualified to speak to two of those things, but I'll give it my best.

[00:01:30] Well, we even last hour were talking with an individual that was talking about pluralism and the need for us to have civility in the midst of religious pluralism.

[00:01:40] And really that's kind of the theme that we'll be going through this hour.

[00:01:44] You have some great material here, 11 different chapters.

[00:01:47] We'll get into all of the aspects of that.

[00:01:49] But I suspect as a pastor, this is not something you've just written about, but you probably preached about and taught about as well, isn't it?

[00:01:58] Fundamentally, I am a pastor.

[00:02:00] I was raised in a pastor's home, raised in the home of a church planter.

[00:02:05] And I'm five generations deep into pastoral ministry.

[00:02:08] So that is certainly the lens through which I view life.

[00:02:12] And ultimately, I want to inspire people to follow Jesus and to love others well.

[00:02:18] And that's challenging at any point in history, but I think especially at the moment that we find ourselves in.

[00:02:24] So it is a passion of my heart to equip people and engage people to be kingdom ambassadors right there in their communities.

[00:02:34] And so again, you talk about elevators.

[00:02:37] First of all, I guess maybe we should define a term because it's going to be one you and I will use a little bit.

[00:02:42] Missional living.

[00:02:44] And in your opening section there, you, of course, talk about that.

[00:02:47] But when we talk about that, let's make sure we're all on the same page in terms of what you mean by that.

[00:02:54] Sure.

[00:02:54] I think living on mission is simply the extension of our spiritual lives or what some might call their religious life out beyond the context of our Sunday worship services.

[00:03:06] So it is a profound movement from Sunday to Monday.

[00:03:10] It involves us engaging the community around us for the sake of common good and clearly doing our very best in a way that is civil and kind and gracious and compassionate to bear witness to the gospel and to represent Jesus.

[00:03:26] So by missional living, I'm simply talking about living your life for the sake of the kingdom of God.

[00:03:31] Oftentimes when we think about missionaries, we tend to think of people who live elsewhere on the planet.

[00:03:39] But I think to some degree we should all see ourselves to that same mindset, whether we are reaching across geographical lines or demographic lines or psychographic lines.

[00:03:51] We are situated in our communities as these ambassadors of the kingdom of God, as representatives of Jesus.

[00:03:59] And missional living means that I see myself, whether that I am in vocational ministry or working in a school or in a corporation or at a food service counter, wherever I do life Monday through Friday, I see that as my personal mission field.

[00:04:17] Sure. Well, and one of the mission fields is in an elevator.

[00:04:21] I always love to see how people react in elevators because one of the elevators that go up and down is a place where a lot of Christian ministries are.

[00:04:28] And I usually engage in a conversation.

[00:04:30] But in this elevator, when we get to this radio studio, which is a little different, everybody wants to look at their phones and not talk to anybody.

[00:04:36] But you have had a situation in which you've decided to actually move from a suburban neighborhood and to actually go to a high rise.

[00:04:45] And in some respects, ministry can happen right there in the elevator, can't it?

[00:04:50] It certainly can and does.

[00:04:52] It certainly can and does.

[00:04:52] My wife and I have been married for 40 years, Kirby.

[00:04:55] And like so many young couples, we started off in a little apartment.

[00:04:59] And then as our family grew, we expanded.

[00:05:02] And before long, we found ourselves living in the suburbs.

[00:05:05] And through the course of planting and pastoring churches in three different cities, we have spent the majority of our lives either in small towns or in the suburbs.

[00:05:17] And about four years ago, we felt a call to move into the heart of the city and to the upper urban core right here in Phoenix, Arizona, and to engage personally in ministering to our neighbors.

[00:05:31] We've been privileged to pastor a large church that God has graciously blessed and has expanded over the course of 24 years now.

[00:05:41] And as is often the case, when a church begins to expand and staff comes on board to help with the load, the pastor transitions from being exactly that to more of a CEO.

[00:05:54] And I think that it's easy to outsource your compassion.

[00:05:58] It's easy to give assignments.

[00:06:00] It's easy to write checks.

[00:06:01] It's easy to do a lot of things and sometimes not as easy to say, I want to roll up my shirt sleeves and I want to engage with my community.

[00:06:12] It's easy to do a lot of things.

[00:06:13] So we moved into the city, moved into a high-rise building.

[00:06:17] We live on the 14th floor and we ride the elevator multiple times a day.

[00:06:22] And our neighborhood and community is radically diverse and it has made for some very interesting conversations.

[00:06:29] I would encourage people to read the book, especially because you have some of those.

[00:06:33] But just before we take a break, let's talk about this concept of ministry of presence.

[00:06:39] Because you even talk about the fact that some researchers have talked about technoference and whether it's on an elevator.

[00:06:46] And I look, I know most everybody wants to look at their phone and I intentionally don't because I'd like to at least try to make eye contact.

[00:06:52] Or whether you go into a restaurant and you see four people sitting across the table and all of them are looking at their phones rather than to each other.

[00:06:59] Or even possibly around the dinner table, the same thing is taking place.

[00:07:03] And if we're going to be actually learning to be loving Samaritans, we need a ministry of presence, don't we?

[00:07:10] We certainly do.

[00:07:11] We live at a very remarkable and unusual moment in history when we are more connected than we've ever been.

[00:07:18] And yet, as you pointed out, we're probably more disconnected than we've ever been.

[00:07:23] And I think in this world, our witness may be one of our greatest witnesses.

[00:07:29] The fact that we see people as individuals.

[00:07:31] The fact that we connect with them personally.

[00:07:34] We don't just walk through our day seeing a sea of faces, but we, based on the model that Jesus gives us throughout the Gospels,

[00:07:43] we see people as individuals, image bearers, people in need of the Gospel, in need of kindness and compassion and consideration.

[00:07:51] And I think once we begin to see people that way, it really does open up the opportunity to share the love of Jesus with them.

[00:07:59] Let's take a break.

[00:08:00] And when we come back, we're going to dig into this a little bit more.

[00:08:03] First, maybe the differences between Pharisees and Samaritans, both biblically, and I think you'll be surprised, probably not,

[00:08:11] that we see some of them today as well.

[00:08:14] And this is all part of a book that has come out in January called Loving Samaritans, Radical Kindness in an Us-Versus-Them World.

[00:08:24] We're privileged to have with us Pastor Terry Christ, and you will find some great information about him.

[00:08:30] You will also find information about the book on the website.

[00:08:34] Since it's been out for a while, I suspect you'll be able to find it in your local bookstore, but if you cannot,

[00:08:38] we have information about it so that you can get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:08:43] We'll take a break and continue right after these important messages.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] A book I've been reading by Mitchell Ashkew has a chapter with the arresting title,

[00:09:07] Fiat Money Destroyed the Nuclear Family.

[00:09:09] It is a reminder of the devastating social effects from the economy due to the decreasing value of the dollar.

[00:09:15] A nuclear family consists of a father, mother, and children.

[00:09:18] The family is the foundation of society.

[00:09:21] He argues that the rise of fiat currency has weakened the nuclear family.

[00:09:25] And he also acknowledges there are other factors such as shifting cultural attitudes towards marriage and family.

[00:09:30] The decreasing value of the dollar, he argues, has turned America into a nation of dual-income households.

[00:09:36] It is becoming less and less possible for someone earning an average income to support their family.

[00:09:41] We've seen this generational shift over the last century.

[00:09:45] He observed that his grandparents, born in the 1930s, raised four children on a single income from his grandfather's job.

[00:09:52] Grandmother stayed home and was able to raise the children.

[00:09:55] They were also able to own a home.

[00:09:57] As I've mentioned in previous commentaries, home ownership is out of reach for a majority of Americans.

[00:10:02] The median family income is not enough to provide a 10% down payment and mortgage payments not greater than 30% of their income.

[00:10:11] The price of a home in the 1950s and 60s was equal to about three years' worth of income.

[00:10:16] Today, the price of a home is equal to at least 10 years' worth of income.

[00:10:20] House prices went up, but wages stayed flat.

[00:10:22] Finally, the lack of financial stability dissuades would-be parents from having children.

[00:10:28] The latest surveys found that finances were the major reason married couples decided not to have children or at least postponed having them.

[00:10:36] America's families are in decline because the American dollar is in decline.

[00:10:41] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:47] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net.

[00:10:53] That's pointofview.net.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:03] Privileged to have with us today Pastor Terry Christ as we talk about loving Samaritans, radical kindness in an us-versus-them world.

[00:11:10] It is published by Zondervan, and he is with us to talk about some of the issues.

[00:11:14] And I thought, Terry, for just a minute, maybe the distinction between a Pharisee and a Samaritan.

[00:11:20] I suspect some of our listeners will know that.

[00:11:22] But first of all, what do we find in the Bible, and do we not see some of those same individuals in the world today?

[00:11:31] Well, they certainly exist today.

[00:11:34] Both do.

[00:11:35] I think that the reason I paired the Pharisees and the Samaritans together in the book in the way that I have is because they share a common origin story,

[00:11:46] and yet, on the other hand, they represent people on the opposite side of a cultural divide.

[00:11:51] When you read through the Gospel of John, you find the bookends of the Pharisees and the Samaritans in John 3 and 4.

[00:12:01] In John 3, we see Jesus interacting with Nicodemus, who is a Pharisee.

[00:12:06] And there, of course, is the beautiful and powerful encounter that he has with him,

[00:12:12] and the conversation about what it means to be born again, what it means to enter into the kingdom of God.

[00:12:17] From there, Jesus then leaves, and the Bible gives us the picture that he fled that environment.

[00:12:24] He fled Judea because that there was a controversy ensuing between his disciples and the disciples of John over who had baptized the most.

[00:12:35] So I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[00:12:39] And Jesus wanted nothing to do with that controversy.

[00:12:42] He wasn't into counting nickels and noses.

[00:12:47] He was on mission.

[00:12:49] And so he leaves Judea, and on his way back to the Galilee, he had to go through Samaria.

[00:12:55] We find Jesus at Jacob's well before long.

[00:13:00] And there he has a conversation with the Samaritan woman, which is the longest recorded conversation in the Gospels.

[00:13:07] And it embodies the most provocative issues of the times.

[00:13:10] In this conversation, we could say it encompasses cultural identities and religion and even politics and power dynamics and sexuality.

[00:13:21] And Jesus is able to have this honest and truthful conversation with her in such a way that it doesn't rebuff her, but instead it attracts her to the kindness and compassion of God.

[00:13:33] That leads then to her salvation and the salvation of many in her village.

[00:13:38] From there, Jesus then goes into the little community, Sychar, and spends two days there.

[00:13:45] So the interesting movement in the Gospel of John is that Jesus comes from this conversation with Nicodemus, this presumably influential, possibly affluent religious leader,

[00:13:59] to now the longest conversation recorded, which in and of itself says something, to two days that are missing in his itinerary.

[00:14:09] And from that point onward, we see Jesus in this love affair, if you will, with the Samaritans.

[00:14:15] He reaches out to them.

[00:14:17] He ministers to them.

[00:14:18] On one occasion, a Samaritan village rejects him, and the disciples want to call down fire on it.

[00:14:25] And Jesus says, no, if you could anyway, right?

[00:14:28] And then finally, right before he ascends into heaven, in his final instructions, he says to the disciples, I want you to go to Jerusalem and Judea.

[00:14:38] And by the way, don't forget, my friends, the Samaritans.

[00:14:43] Yes.

[00:14:43] So this conversation is a beautiful picture of cultural engagement.

[00:14:49] He shows us radical kindness, gracious civility, and he shows us how to deal with the other in the world.

[00:14:56] And we're surrounded by a world of others.

[00:14:59] Who are they?

[00:15:00] And what can we do to reach them with the kindness of God?

[00:15:04] Again, you have a whole chapter on insiders and outsiders, seeing self and serving others.

[00:15:09] But when we stay on the idea of Samaritans, first of all, we have a positive image today.

[00:15:14] When somebody's called a good Samaritan, we think he's a good, do a good idea.

[00:15:16] But you can imagine the reaction to a Samaritan does this.

[00:15:20] And you actually talk about the fact that in some respects that was behind enemy lines.

[00:15:26] Because so often people in that day would go out of their way.

[00:15:31] And I've taken a number of tours to Israel, and I try to show them sometimes when we're on the bus.

[00:15:36] Now there's Samaria.

[00:15:37] You can imagine how they'd have to sort of walk out of their way not to go through Samaria.

[00:15:42] And instead here, he actually takes these disciples, maybe somewhat unwillingly, into Samaritan territory.

[00:15:50] And in some respects that helps us understand that that is exactly what we're being called to do today, don't you think?

[00:15:59] No righteous Jew would be willingly caught dead or alive with a Samaritan.

[00:16:04] There was a long and storied and painful history there.

[00:16:07] And it goes back to the 8th century when the Assyrians invaded the land and deported about 20,000 inhabitants of the land

[00:16:17] and repopulated the land with five different nations.

[00:16:21] So the Samaritans come out of this common origin story, but they become this mixed race.

[00:16:28] And over time, they drift from worshiping the one true and living God,

[00:16:32] and they begin to embrace this syncretistic blend where they adhere to some of the Torah but not all of it.

[00:16:41] So by the time Jesus comes along and begins his earthly ministry, we see this history.

[00:16:48] But it's not just a painful history with the Samaritans.

[00:16:51] The well that he chooses to meet the woman at also has a long and painful history.

[00:16:57] And it's a storied history.

[00:16:59] It was a place of blessing and a place of pain.

[00:17:02] And I think both the Samaritans and Jacob's well represent the culture that we find ourselves in today.

[00:17:08] We live in a world that is syncretistic, pluralistic, blended.

[00:17:15] People have sort of self-styled and freestyled their faith,

[00:17:19] and they have a little bit drawn from Christianity and a little bit from Buddhism and a little bit from secularism.

[00:17:26] And like the Samaritans, they just created their own system of belief and their own worldview.

[00:17:32] And that's situated at a place of pain and brokenness in our culture as well.

[00:17:37] So I think the parallels between Jesus and the Samaritans and the church and the culture are undeniable.

[00:17:43] And God puts this in the text to teach us something really powerful about connecting with people unlike us.

[00:17:51] Well, let's see if we can connect that to what's going on right now because we have tribes.

[00:17:56] We have tribalism.

[00:17:57] We have the other.

[00:17:59] You tell the story about you and your wife going to an African village.

[00:18:02] And your wife looks a little different than you, just as my wife does.

[00:18:06] And I can relate to that because they probably wanted to, as you said, touch her hair.

[00:18:11] They've never seen hair like that, skin, things like that.

[00:18:14] So it was very obvious who the other was.

[00:18:16] That was you.

[00:18:17] But as you point out, it gets kind of murky, maybe even a little bit foggy,

[00:18:23] when the someone other is your own family, maybe a person in a different church, different community,

[00:18:30] or maybe even a person that is very pagan and maybe very hostile to you.

[00:18:36] And so in some respects, we have to once again take some of those lessons that we learn from Jesus, don't we?

[00:18:43] We do.

[00:18:44] We do.

[00:18:45] We live in a world that is highly tribal.

[00:18:47] And I don't know, Kirby, that there's anything wrong with existing in tribes.

[00:18:52] People associate with tribes for a wide range of benefits, and even ancient Israel was tribal, a nation of tribes.

[00:19:01] Jesus was born into a tribe.

[00:19:03] So we're all a part of tribes, whether a tribe is our alma mater, a tribe is our football club,

[00:19:10] or whatever the case may be, our associations.

[00:19:13] The problem, however, is with tribalism.

[00:19:16] And the ism part of that is when we begin to see people in other tribes not just as distinct, not just as unique,

[00:19:24] not just as holding differing beliefs, but we feel as if that their existence becomes a threat to ours.

[00:19:31] So we then engage either directly or indirectly, consciously and subconsciously, in trying to eradicate them.

[00:19:40] And this is the danger that we see in the world around us today.

[00:19:43] It's not that we're just all existing here and interacting at the fringes and the overlap to the best of our ability.

[00:19:51] It's that we are divided politically.

[00:19:54] We are divided racially and ethnically.

[00:19:57] We're divided religiously.

[00:19:58] And we're uncomfortable with those divisions because we feel that everyone has to conform to our belief system.

[00:20:06] So the real challenge in this world is not that we are unique.

[00:20:11] We've been unique.

[00:20:12] It's that in our day we feel the need to make everyone conform.

[00:20:17] Yes.

[00:20:18] Let's take a break.

[00:20:19] And when we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Pastor Terry Crist.

[00:20:22] And the book is entitled Loving Samaritans, Radical Kindness in an Us Versus Them World.

[00:20:27] We'll talk about the separation of church and hate, truth and tone, the idea of compassionate conversations,

[00:20:37] as well as, well, let's face the obvious, politics, pandemics, polarization.

[00:20:42] We are dealing with a lot.

[00:20:43] And we talk about this so often here on Point of View.

[00:20:46] And I think this book would be a great addition to your library and a resource that you could use.

[00:20:51] For those of you that are pastors, you may want to preach out of this particular book.

[00:20:55] For those of you that have a life group or a small group, you might want to use this as a teaching series.

[00:21:02] And we have information not only about Terry and his church but also about the book.

[00:21:07] No doubt you probably can find it in your local bookstore.

[00:21:09] But if you have any difficulty at all, we have information.

[00:21:12] You can get it either in paperback or Kindle.

[00:21:14] We have a lot more to cover.

[00:21:16] And we'll do our best to do so right after these important messages.

[00:21:30] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:21:36] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:21:39] People are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their politics.

[00:21:44] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:21:49] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:21:52] You feel like giving up.

[00:21:54] But we can't.

[00:21:55] We shouldn't.

[00:21:56] We must not.

[00:21:57] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:22:02] never give in.

[00:22:03] Never give in.

[00:22:04] Never, never, never.

[00:22:06] Never yield to force.

[00:22:08] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:22:11] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:22:15] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:22:22] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:22:29] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:22:38] Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151.

[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:51] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:01] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Continue our conversation today as we talk about the book, Loving Samaritans.

[00:23:16] How can we bring grace and harmony and empathy and love and acceptance into our world that is so polarized?

[00:23:24] I think you will certainly appreciate this book.

[00:23:26] It is published by Zondervan.

[00:23:27] It is written by Pastor Terry Crisp.

[00:23:30] And again, I wanted to get to one of the chapters on the separation of church and hate.

[00:23:35] First of all, I don't need to remind you about the fact that the church has sometimes not done so well.

[00:23:41] There have been scandals.

[00:23:43] There have been issues of all sorts that are the case.

[00:23:46] Sometimes we aren't doing a good job of preparing people to be good Samaritans in the world.

[00:23:51] But Terry, I thought, if nothing else, maybe telling the back story of Shechem is just, again, a biblical principle that we can begin to apply to our world today.

[00:24:04] So the back story of Shechem is a little complicated.

[00:24:08] It has some very redemptive moments.

[00:24:12] And then it has some painful moments, much like each of our lives, I guess.

[00:24:17] This happens to be the place when Abraham leaves his father's household.

[00:24:22] There he encounters God near the Oak of Mamre.

[00:24:26] And this becomes a sacred spot, if you will.

[00:24:30] So it is the site of God having moved in a way that established his promise.

[00:24:37] But it also then turns and becomes this dark site.

[00:24:41] Later on, we see Jacob settling there after he's reunited with his brother Esau.

[00:24:47] And that becomes a place where his daughter Dinah is raped.

[00:24:51] The painful story that continues from there is that her brothers avenged her dishonor and killed the men of the village.

[00:25:00] So when Jesus chooses to have this conversation there, he's not having it in a vacuum, so to speak.

[00:25:06] And I think what he is really showing us is the fact that even though each of our communities has these painful places,

[00:25:16] along with, you know, some redemptive places, we need to be reminded of the fact that all people are worthy of respect.

[00:25:25] All people are worthy of being heard.

[00:25:27] All people are worthy of hearing the truth without insult.

[00:25:31] And all people are worthy of unconditional love.

[00:25:35] What I'm calling people to do, Kirby, is to just be mindful of what it means to see the people around us as image bearers.

[00:25:45] I know as people of faith we have deep-seated convictions.

[00:25:48] And in the moment that we find ourselves in, it's easy to feel that our faith is under attack.

[00:25:54] And there are some evidences to bear witness to that.

[00:25:58] But we can either live life on the offensive or the defensive.

[00:26:03] And I don't see Jesus living from a defensive posture.

[00:26:07] I see him going into enemy territory.

[00:26:09] I see him in conversations with the religious and the irreligious.

[00:26:14] And I see him consistently having those conversations in a way that is kind and compassionate and gracious without compromising truth.

[00:26:24] And I think it's important to say that.

[00:26:26] I'm certainly not advocating for any reworking of the fundamentals of the truth.

[00:26:31] We believe that the gospel is good news.

[00:26:34] And it is timeless and timely.

[00:26:37] I think, however, many people reject the gospel not because of the content of the gospel,

[00:26:44] but oftentimes because the tone in which we share the gospel.

[00:26:48] We share Christ out of contention.

[00:26:50] We share the good news with an angry spirit.

[00:26:53] We share the love of Jesus in a way that seems to be seeking to win arguments instead of winning people.

[00:27:00] And so I'm inviting people to take a moment, take a deep breath,

[00:27:05] look around you and realize that you're in a community filled with people that Jesus loves and shed his blood for.

[00:27:13] And he wants to use you in a way that connects them to the living water of salvation,

[00:27:20] that brings them into a personal relationship with him.

[00:27:24] And again, you talk about this idea of truth and tone in one of the chapters, an art of compassionate conversation.

[00:27:32] We've actually had some conversations in the past about the ministry of listening

[00:27:36] and just the need right now by the fact that we're just surrounded by this cacophony of voices

[00:27:44] and sounds and comments and the rest.

[00:27:48] And it does seem to me that if we do not join in with that,

[00:27:53] but we figure out ways to actually speak the truth in love and to be gracious,

[00:27:59] I think that's going to be attractive to individuals who are maybe pulmented

[00:28:06] and pulmented so many different times and attack so many different times

[00:28:11] and maybe ridiculed and even labeled to actually be drawn to the fact that it isn't just truth,

[00:28:19] but it's love that's tied with truth.

[00:28:21] And that is needed ever more than ever before,

[00:28:24] simply because of the world that we find ourselves in with.

[00:28:27] There is so much increased division in this world.

[00:28:31] I like to think of the idea of grace and truth as a tightly stretched rubber band.

[00:28:37] The tension is unbearable.

[00:28:40] And we want to let up on one end or the other.

[00:28:43] We want to give on the truth side or we want to give on the grace side.

[00:28:46] But I think we have to hold that tension.

[00:28:49] I don't think we can prioritize the things that the Bible holds in tension.

[00:28:53] So we've got to hold that tension.

[00:28:55] And what makes that possible is love.

[00:28:58] It's just simply loving people, loving people the way that Jesus loved people.

[00:29:04] I do think that the conversations that we have are important.

[00:29:08] And I encourage people to have courageous but not contentious conversations,

[00:29:14] to be able to speak the truth in love.

[00:29:17] But fundamentally, ours is a show and tell gospel.

[00:29:19] And the telling part isn't heard when the showing part is absent.

[00:29:23] So we have to find that way to connect with people at their point of need,

[00:29:28] at their pain point.

[00:29:30] I think if people walk through their community with their eyes wide open,

[00:29:34] they'll find that the traces of grace are already present in your neighborhood,

[00:29:38] in your apartment building, in the job that you work on.

[00:29:43] God is already there working in the lives of people,

[00:29:46] even though they may not be aware of that.

[00:29:48] And if you can identify the way that God is at work,

[00:29:51] then you can connect with that and amplify that and help people to see that.

[00:29:57] It's the old black of the line.

[00:29:59] Find out what God is doing and join Him in it.

[00:30:02] We don't take Jesus anywhere.

[00:30:04] He's already there.

[00:30:06] And we have to find out how He is working in the lives of people

[00:30:09] and help them to see that so they surrender to His grace and to salvation.

[00:30:15] Let's give some practical suggestions.

[00:30:17] Of course, we've talked about listening.

[00:30:20] And Jesus, as you said, was a master listener.

[00:30:23] But I appreciate something that you shared about your own experience,

[00:30:28] because I've had the same.

[00:30:30] My parents, you say, instilled in me the value of answering questions directly,

[00:30:35] a lesson that was further reinforced through a lifetime of education in the Western world.

[00:30:39] Okay, that all being said, and I learned the same thing,

[00:30:43] that you can answer and should answer the question.

[00:30:47] Don't be evasive like a lot of politicians and the rest.

[00:30:50] But you also remind us, as we have talked about on this program,

[00:30:54] that there are a lot of questions that Jesus asked.

[00:30:58] Most people say 113.

[00:31:00] At least in your book, you say that.

[00:31:02] And He really only answered three of those.

[00:31:05] So in some respects, there are questions that were asked of Him.

[00:31:10] In most cases, He asked questions.

[00:31:13] And I found that sometimes asking questions is a very good way to get people to,

[00:31:20] first of all, share what they're thinking, to understand where they're coming from.

[00:31:24] And then in some cases, as we maybe go down that trail of asking questions,

[00:31:29] to see some of the logical inconsistencies of their views.

[00:31:33] So not only should we be a good listener,

[00:31:36] it seems to me in a lot of cases we should be a good question asker as well.

[00:31:41] I think you're right.

[00:31:43] And I think the amazing thing about Jesus is that He didn't allow the conversation to be coopted.

[00:31:50] He didn't allow it to be controlled, even though He only answers a few questions,

[00:31:55] whether we're getting the numbers right from the way that we read the Scripture

[00:32:00] and the version that we're reading it in or not,

[00:32:03] whether it's 112 or 13 questions that are asked of Him,

[00:32:06] we do know that He only answers a few of them directly.

[00:32:10] But He makes people feel seen.

[00:32:12] He makes people feel heard.

[00:32:14] He makes people feel His presence.

[00:32:17] And I think that comes out of the state of His interior life.

[00:32:22] And, of course, we know He was fully man and fully God.

[00:32:25] But I think that listening is a profound act of love that relates to the state of our interior lives,

[00:32:32] when our hearts are at peace, when we are a non-anxious presence,

[00:32:37] when we are gentle of spirit and empathic and compassionate and kind and peaceful.

[00:32:45] Then those things translate, I think, into a natural curiosity that people connect with.

[00:32:51] I encourage people practically to just get out in the community and do some really deep listening.

[00:32:58] I tell pastors pretty frequently, you know, get off the campus, bro.

[00:33:03] You know, I love what God's doing on our church campuses.

[00:33:06] And I'm a church kid.

[00:33:07] I'm a rapidly aging church kid.

[00:33:09] But I love the church and I love what God is doing.

[00:33:13] But I think what we need to do in order to connect with the new generation

[00:33:17] and with a world that doesn't seep the value of the church, as many of us see and know,

[00:33:23] we need to get into our coffee shops.

[00:33:26] And I'm not talking about going into a coffee shop with a big family Bible

[00:33:29] and with your laptop to prepare your sermon while trying to imagine the questions around you.

[00:33:36] We're going to take a break.

[00:33:37] We have a lot more to cover.

[00:33:39] It's all part of Loving Samaritans.

[00:33:40] Pastor Terry Christ will be back right after this.

[00:33:55] Many times over the past decade or so, I have muttered under my breath,

[00:33:59] the emperor has no clothes.

[00:34:01] The phrase, of course, is from Hans Christian Andersen's tale,

[00:34:04] The Emperor's New Clothes,

[00:34:06] in which dishonest tailors provide a vain king with garments,

[00:34:10] clothes that don't actually exist.

[00:34:12] The swindlers explain that they are weavers of fabric that would be

[00:34:15] invisible to anyone who was unfit for his office or who was unusually stupid.

[00:34:20] Naturally, the king buys in.

[00:34:22] The townspeople timidly go along with the charade, praising the nude emperor's outfits.

[00:34:27] One day, as the emperor's entourage carries his fake train,

[00:34:31] a little boy calls out the truth that no one else dared admit.

[00:34:35] He hasn't got anything on.

[00:34:36] In a recent column, the Wall Street Journal's Gerard Baker pointed to this year's election

[00:34:41] as an emperor's new clothes event where voters repudiated a regime of oppressive insanities.

[00:34:47] He listed five of the most destructive and unpopular strictures.

[00:34:51] First, we are somehow obligated to grant people who have stolen into this country

[00:34:56] many privileges of citizenship and, contrary to our laws, to give them sanctuary.

[00:35:01] Second, to save the planet, we must severely limit the use of one of the greatest reservoirs

[00:35:06] of natural energy resources on Earth.

[00:35:09] Third, we must believe we are a racist nation.

[00:35:11] So, Mr. Baker writes,

[00:35:13] To right the past wrong of treating people based on the color of their skin,

[00:35:17] we must treat people based on the color of their skin.

[00:35:20] Fourth, we're to reject the scientific concept of biological sex.

[00:35:24] Gender is a social construct, and people should be allowed to choose theirs.

[00:35:28] If deemed necessary, the state may circumvent parents to provide troubled youngsters

[00:35:33] with medical and even surgical transitions.

[00:35:36] And finally, certain views are misinformation,

[00:35:39] and those who hold them are deserving of punishment.

[00:35:41] Voters repudiated these bad ideas.

[00:35:44] Now, perhaps we can re-clothe the emperor.

[00:35:47] For Point of View, I'm Penna Dexter.

[00:35:54] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:36:00] Loving Samaritans, Radical Kindness, and an Us-Versus-Them World.

[00:36:03] It is published by Zondervan, written by Pastor Terry Christ.

[00:36:06] And Terry, let's, if we can, get back to the woman at the well,

[00:36:10] the Samaritan woman, because that helps us think about how to navigate guilt

[00:36:15] and shame and acceptance.

[00:36:17] Because we are dealing with a lot of individuals who either feel critical,

[00:36:23] criticized, or have been criticized, or in one way or another,

[00:36:27] do not have an interest in the gospel, interest in the church,

[00:36:32] because of experiences that they have actually had.

[00:36:35] And so it seems to me that, once again, we can learn some vicarious lessons

[00:36:39] for how Jesus actually addressed that woman.

[00:36:44] I think one of the things we can learn there is the importance of, again,

[00:36:49] seeing people uniquely and individually.

[00:36:52] We often make assumptions about people without having conversations with them

[00:36:57] about who they are and why they do what they do.

[00:37:00] And I think it's just so easy to see people in a way that's collective

[00:37:03] and maybe even nationalistic, or we see them as a monolith

[00:37:08] instead of seeing them personally and individually.

[00:37:12] And when we do that, when we make decisions about who they are

[00:37:15] without having conversations with them, we then tend to label them.

[00:37:20] And I think a lot of believers need to interrogate the stereotypes

[00:37:25] that we hold about people.

[00:37:27] We often say all people, all blank people are blank.

[00:37:32] So we fill in those blanks with what we perceive about groups of people.

[00:37:36] But I've discovered, Kirby, that you can have people that are engaged

[00:37:40] in what we would consider a sinful behavior.

[00:37:44] And not everyone engaged in the same behavior is engaged in it for the same reason.

[00:37:49] And sometimes it's hard to really help people and to lead them into a life of freedom

[00:37:55] when we are antagonistic toward them.

[00:37:58] We've already defined them and we've labeled them.

[00:38:02] And, of course, when we label people, we often negate them.

[00:38:05] So I think the beauty of what I see in this story is that Jesus didn't label the woman

[00:38:11] in some area.

[00:38:12] He didn't label her.

[00:38:13] He had, again, a really courageous conversation with her

[00:38:17] that wasn't contagious or contentious, rather.

[00:38:20] But he allows her to respond, to engage with him.

[00:38:25] And in doing that, he leads her to a place where she's open to the gospel.

[00:38:31] Let's, we can, talk about the culture that we find yourselves in.

[00:38:34] You have a chapter on politics, pandemics, and polarization.

[00:38:37] And you, a decade ago, actually spoke to an issue of cultural crash.

[00:38:42] But, as you mentioned, being a fifth-generation pastor,

[00:38:46] you said, I'm pretty sure my grandfather would be shocked to hear the topics we're discussing.

[00:38:51] Many of which, of course, we mentioned just as we started the program here today.

[00:38:55] And many of which we talk about and write about here at Point of View.

[00:38:59] But it does seem to me that we need to understand that we are in a situation

[00:39:04] in which the culture has been coming against the church.

[00:39:09] And there is a reality that both Jesus and the Samaritan woman lived in a highly polarized society.

[00:39:17] So, in some respects, this isn't new.

[00:39:19] So what can we learn from that conversation and learn from Jesus

[00:39:24] about how to address some of these hot-button cultural topics here in the 21st century?

[00:39:31] I think you're absolutely right.

[00:39:33] Listening to the earlier segment before I came on,

[00:39:38] I heard you indicate something to the effect of we don't have the home field advantage any longer.

[00:39:43] So that's true.

[00:39:45] Things have certainly shifted and changed.

[00:39:47] And at the same time, we can either look at this through the lens of feeling that the challenge is insurmountable,

[00:39:54] or we can look at it through the lens of seeing that this generation is right for the gospel.

[00:40:01] Kirby, I go back and forth between thinking that we're living in the most divided times ever, and then probably not.

[00:40:08] So when I'm feeling the intensity of the conversations around me, when I'm looking at the news feed,

[00:40:13] it feels very, very divided and polarized.

[00:40:16] When I then go back to history and I look at the world that Jesus was born into,

[00:40:22] look at the divisions that existed, not just between Jews and Samaritans and Pharisees,

[00:40:28] but he's living in a culture that's being occupied.

[00:40:33] Religious immorality is rampant.

[00:40:35] Corinth had something like 1,000 prostitutes in 12 different temples.

[00:40:41] Then I see that the culture that we find ourselves in is probably not the most divided and sinful culture in the history of the world.

[00:40:51] So in seeing it that way, there's hope.

[00:40:54] There's hope to really engage with people for the sake of the gospel.

[00:40:58] We don't have to seed the moment that we're in, but we do have to begin to realize that this moment is not going to be redeemed by anything less than individual conversations with people and personal salvation.

[00:41:13] We have to get back into community and connecting with people so that their lives can be transformed by the gospel.

[00:41:21] The gospel is sufficient.

[00:41:23] The grace of God is effective.

[00:41:25] And people, I believe, can be changed.

[00:41:28] And many will be changed if we become faithful to engage with them, not hiding in the holy huddle, not just, you know, angry because that the culture has shifted.

[00:41:39] But we really get back to the way of Jesus, to the practices of Jesus.

[00:41:45] It has always been effective and always will be.

[00:41:47] Well, again, you even talk about the fact that some of that division is inside the church.

[00:41:51] I love that.

[00:41:52] The tale of two mountains, Mount Gerizim and Mount Zion.

[00:41:55] But you could also, of course, talk about Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal and others.

[00:42:00] And so sometimes it's not just the division outside the church.

[00:42:05] It's the division inside the church.

[00:42:08] But I thought just before I run out of time, Terry, I really wanted to have you speak for a minute about, number one, how individuals could benefit from this book.

[00:42:17] I think anybody can read through this book and benefit.

[00:42:19] But I also, as a pastor, might want for a minute for you to talk to other pastors, Bible study teachers, life group leaders and others.

[00:42:29] Because it seems to me that you could actually go through a chapter a week and teach that.

[00:42:35] There's a place where you can actually get more information about that.

[00:42:39] We have a book sample.

[00:42:41] You have discussion guides.

[00:42:43] You have conversation cards and much more at TerryChris.com, which is on the website along with the book.

[00:42:50] But can you, for just a minute or two, give us an overview on how people might be able to apply this inside their own church?

[00:42:58] Absolutely.

[00:42:59] And let me say thank you for that.

[00:43:01] It is very kind of you to make that available.

[00:43:04] I think there are a couple of things.

[00:43:06] First of all, in engaging in the book, my hope is to bring people back to the gospel.

[00:43:12] I don't think that we need to improve upon the way of Jesus.

[00:43:16] I think we need to return to the way of Jesus.

[00:43:19] Love has always been the original apologetic.

[00:43:22] And, yes, our gospel is a show and tell gospel, so the telling part is very, very important.

[00:43:28] But we really need to get back to the showing part.

[00:43:31] And the book really, I think, goes a long way to help people embrace a Jesus way of being.

[00:43:39] There are a lot of practical ideas throughout the book in how to connect with your neighbors and the people in your company and coffee shops and across your service counter.

[00:43:49] But fundamentally, it's about us returning to a sense of being that is faithful to the gospel.

[00:43:57] So I would encourage people to pick up a copy of Loving Samaritans.

[00:44:01] It's a labor of love.

[00:44:03] I've lived it out in the streets of our city for 24 years, and it really does work.

[00:44:09] We don't need to improve on the way of Jesus.

[00:44:11] We need to return to the way of Jesus.

[00:44:13] And in doing so, I believe that our best days are ahead for the church.

[00:44:17] Well, again, Terry Crisp, it has been great to have you on the program.

[00:44:20] Thank you for writing the book, and thank you for giving us an hour today here on Point of View.

[00:44:25] Thanks, brother.

[00:44:26] But just before we go, let me again mention that it is entitled Loving Samaritans, Radical Kindness in an Us-Versus-Them World.

[00:44:35] It really explores a lot of themes, you know, grace and unity and empathy and love and acceptance.

[00:44:41] It is, of course, tied into the story, of course, of the Samaritan woman,

[00:44:49] but also just learning some very important principles that we find in the gospel

[00:44:54] and apply it to our 21st century world.

[00:44:57] So, again, if you'd like to know more about Terry or about the book, go to our website at pointofview.net.

[00:45:05] We'll talk with Bruce Miller in studio right after this.

[00:45:11] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle,

[00:45:16] not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:45:20] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism,

[00:45:24] and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon.

[00:45:28] London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:45:34] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:45:40] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers.

[00:45:44] Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:45:49] It is truth for all of life.

[00:45:51] Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today?

[00:45:56] Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox

[00:46:01] when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:46:08] Every weekday in less than two minutes,

[00:46:10] you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:46:15] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now.

[00:46:21] Pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:46:24] Point of View will continue after this.