Point of View May 8, 2025 – Hour 2 : Seeing the Supernatural

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, and now, Kirby Anderson. This is an interview I've been looking forward to because it is, of course, an interview we're going to be doing with Lee Strobel.

[00:00:25] He, of course, is the author of so many books we've talked about over the years, but this new one is one that I think would be quite intriguing to you. Seeing the Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World. In some respects, we've heard some of that in a few of his previous books, but this one, again, is going to be one I think you're going to really appreciate.

[00:00:54] If you're not familiar with him, I don't know how you could not be, author of The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, The Case for the Creator, The Case for Heaven, for example, looking at the evidence of life after death, Is God Real?, and many other books that I can certainly recommend to you. And Lee Strobel, of course, is the award-winning legal editor at the Chicago Tribune who became a Christian. Of course, you perhaps have seen the film. And Lee Strobel, it is just always a delight to have you on the program.

[00:01:24] Well, Kirby, it's always a pleasure to chat with you. I sure appreciate you and your ministry on the radio. It's an awesome service to the body of Christ. Well, I appreciate the fact that even when we did a truth team, you actually sent in support. So not only do you appreciate it, not only do you appreciate what we do, but you've even shown that as well. And I just first of all want people to understand that this book, it really kind of breaks down into two sections.

[00:01:49] First six chapters are The Supernatural Among Us, which I really wanted to spend some time on, and some of the people you've interviewed or people we've had on this program. And then the second part, The Supernatural That Awaits Us. And I thought, first of all, as an individual that has written so many books, sometimes you say, why another book? But as I understand from what you said near the end of the book, that your editors at Zondervan recommended that you write this book.

[00:02:15] They actually came to me with the idea and said, hey, why don't you do an investigation of the supernatural? And it took about two seconds for me to say, oh, my goodness, that really resonates with me. Because first of all, I know that eight out of ten Americans do believe that there's something beyond what we can see and touch and put a test to. So there's a common ground there, a bridge that we can build on. Because a lot of people are fascinated by the paranormal, the supernatural, and yet they delve into all kinds of unbiblical things.

[00:02:45] And so my hope in this is that we can tap into their interest in the supernatural, deepen the faith of Christians, but then give them a resource that they can share with people to give them a biblical perspective of this. Well, I'm going to certainly try to go through all 12 chapters as we can. But the first one gets into the issue of the soul. And I thought it was kind of striking that you actually dedicated this book to J.P. Moreland. And I was just thinking, those of us at Probe Ministries first ran into him in 1975.

[00:03:12] That's like 50 years ago when he was Campus Crusade Director at the University of Vermont. But, of course, we've had him on before to talk about the soul. You have an interview with Sharon Dirks. But I think that is, I think, one of the great starting points because some people simply say, well, there's really no brain. There's a brain, but there's no mind. There's a body, but there's really no soul. And yet the evidence is going the other direction, isn't it? It really is.

[00:03:40] And, of course, she has a Ph.D. in neurobiology from Cambridge University. So she knows what she's talking about. And, you know, a lot of people, skeptics, atheists, and so forth, believe we're just our brain. We have no immaterial component to our reality. So there is no soul. There is no spirit. There is no consciousness. It's an illusion that's conjured up by the processes of our brain. Well, there's a lot of problems with that.

[00:04:08] And one of the ones she points out is if you imagine a scientist, say, name is Mary, let's say. And Mary understands everything about eyesight. She understands how the human eye works. She understands how the optic nerve carries impulses into the brain that are reconstructed into a visual appearance. They say she understands everything about the chemistry works of human sight. And yet she's blind.

[00:04:35] And the question is, if she all of a sudden got her sight for the first time, was able to see, would she learn anything different about sight? And the answer is, of course she would. Which means that the physical facts alone cannot explain the first-person experience of consciousness. So, in other words, no amount of knowledge about the physical working of the eye and the brain would get her any closer to the experience of what it's like to actually see.

[00:05:02] So consciousness simply cannot be synonymous with brain activity. We are more than our brain. We are a hyphenate creature. That is a body and a soul. And J.P. Moreland, of course, has written much about that. And he actually ended up mentoring my son, who got his first master's degree at Biola University at Talbot Seminary under J.P. Moreland. Yeah. Well, again, we say that we don't deny that there's a brain. It's like there's a computer. Right. Who's watching the computer?

[00:05:33] Exactly. And we've had all sorts of brain studies where they'll touch a part of the brain and your hands will move. And you say, why did you move your hand? He said, I didn't. You made me move it. In other words, I made the... And so you... And most people, even our atheist friends, act as if we're more than our brains. That's right. Because if all we are is biological meat and biological computers, they're assuming that we're making volitional choices and things of that nature.

[00:06:01] So even when they try to deny the existence of a mind or a soul, they sort of fall back into it, don't they? They really do. I mean, to... As most people who believe that we're only a physical brain will concede that therefore we have no free will. Well, really? We certainly act as though we do. We certainly live as though we do. We certainly build our culture around the fact that we have free will. So it doesn't pass the livability test. It doesn't pass the smell test.

[00:06:29] It just does not add up ultimately. And I think Sharon Dierks does a good job in that chapter of kind of explaining why we're more than just our brain. You also have a chapter on miracles. It's written by Craig Keener. And by the way, he's one of many individuals, including J.P. Moreland and Jester Byerly, as well as a variety of other people like Sheila Walsh and Paul Copan and Kirk Cameron and others that have all endorsed the book.

[00:06:54] And again, that's maybe familiar territory because you've written an entire book on the subject of miracles, haven't you? I have. And, you know, as you mentioned earlier, my background's in journalism and law. So I tend to be a person who likes evidence. I like corroboration. I like facts. And so I was looking at cases of miracles that are not something you read about on the Internet that have nothing to back them up.

[00:07:19] I'm looking at cases that are scientifically established, that are done by medical researchers, that are published, many of them, in peer-reviewed medical journals, cases where we have multiple eyewitnesses who have no motive to deceive, where we have medical records, and so forth. So I'm looking for these documented cases, and one of the ones I talk about in my book involves a woman who was blind for over a dozen years with an incurable condition. She went to a school for the blind. She learned how to read Braille.

[00:07:49] She walked with a white cane, and she married a Baptist pastor. And then one night they're getting ready to go to bed, and she's in bed, and he comes over and puts his arm, his hand on her shoulder, begins to cry, begins to pray. And he says, Lord, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can, and I pray that you will do it tonight. And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect eyesight, which has remained now for 47 years. That's right. So this is a case that's been documented by multiple medical researchers, published in a peer-reviewed medical journal as a case study.

[00:08:19] And, you know, what do you do with that? As she said, I was blind when my husband prayed for me. I opened my eyes and I could see perfectly. It was a miracle. And I don't think you can deny it was a miracle unless you begin with the presupposition that miracles are impossible. Yes. That's the only way you can rule it out. We're going to take a break, and we'll get into some of the other supernatural among us, part of the book, Seeing the Supernatural. We'll be back right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Former member of Congress, Mike Gallagher, argues that it is time for accountability on the COVID lab leak cover-up. He reminds us that after millions have died and a world suffered billions in economic value loss, the West can claim zero lessons learned. He also says that Anthony Fauci should have come clean about the pandemic's laboratory origin and admitted that Wuhan's lab's risky gain-of-function research was a mistake.

[00:09:26] Of course, none of that has happened. Instead, he reminds us of how the Chinese Communist Party was allowed to bleach the crime scene while Dr. Fauci and others were able to whitewash history. They insisted for years that the origin of the virus was natural. Dr. Fauci continued to make this claim in a paper published last November. Mike Gallagher proposes several action steps. First, he proposes that President Trump should declassify all intelligence of COVID's origin.

[00:09:52] Congress did vote to require President Biden to declassify relevant intelligence, but all he did was publish a semi-redacted 10-page report. Second, President Trump should empower agency heads to drive a push for accountability. CIA Director John Ratcliffe has begun this, but a full investigation must take place. Attorney General Pam Bondi should issue subpoenas for relevant communications.

[00:10:15] Finally, President Trump should establish a multi-nation tribunal, akin to the International Criminal Court, but with actual teeth, to investigate the origin of the virus, examining evidence of negligence or intentional misconduct, and determining the culpability of key people and institutions. So many questions remain for a pandemic that changed our world in many ways. We deserve answers and a full investigation. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view of intelligent design, go to viewpoints.info slash intelligent design. Viewpoints.info slash intelligent design. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Continue our conversation today with Lee Strobel as we talk about the book Seeing the Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World.

[00:11:14] We've already talked about the existence of the soul and miracles, but Lee, we have a chapter on life-changing spiritual encounters where you do an interview with Doug Grotice. But you start off by telling a story I've heard you tell about a man by the name of Robert who was on a beach in Florida, and all of a sudden he says God spoke to him and said, Robert, I've saved you more times than you'll ever know. Now I need you to come to me through my son Jesus. And it's just as real as it can be.

[00:11:42] Most people actually do know Robert because his name, at least as he was best known as a motorcycle individual, was Evel Knievel. And I think if I remember right, he even called you up and says, hi, this is Evel. And you said, does Evel Knievel have my phone number? Exactly. That's exactly true.

[00:12:04] And it's a great example of how God sometimes chooses to dramatically and supernaturally reach down and touch an individual. You know, here's this guy, Evel Knievel, who lived a very immoral life. He was a gambler. He was a drunk. He had a woman in every city. He once beat up a business associate with a baseball bat and went to jail for it. I mean, this was a sinful individual.

[00:12:30] And he's standing on the beach and he said, Lee, I didn't hear God's voice through my ears. I heard it in my heart. And it was clear as day. He said, Robert, I've saved you more times than you'll ever know. Now you need to come to me through my son Jesus. And it rocked him. And he didn't know what to do. He called up the only guy he knew who was a Christian, Frank Gifford. Remember him? The former sportscaster. And said, Frank, I had this experience. Who's Jesus? I don't even know. And Frank said, well, get that book, The Case for Christ, by Lee Sto. Well, that'll explain it.

[00:13:00] So Evel got my book. He read it. He had a radical, radical conversion. I mean, I don't know how else you explain this other than God dramatically and supernaturally touched his life. When he got up to tell his testimony when he was baptized, the pastor literally ripped up his sermon and said, y'all have heard the gospel right now from Evel to Evel. Anybody wants to. And this is a church that had never had an altar call.

[00:13:26] He said, anybody wants to come up right now, receive Christ, be baptized, come on up. 700 people came forward in two services. I mean, and he was just sold out to serve Jesus Christ. In fact, when he died about a year and a half later, at his request on his tombstone, it says, believe in Jesus Christ. Wow. Well, how do we explain?

[00:13:49] You know who else had an experience, supernatural experience like that is Blaise Pascal, the famous French philosopher, famous for Pascal's wager. But, you know, he had an experience with God that was so personal. He never told anybody about it in his whole life. But when he died, they were taking off his coat, and they realized there was something sewn into the lining next to his heart.

[00:14:14] And they took it out, and it was a contemporary account of this encounter he had with God, a supernatural encounter where God touched his life in a supernatural way. And he wrote it out as it was happening, and he saved it next to his heart for the rest of his life. Sometimes God does stuff like that. And I don't know how you explain it other than this is a supernatural event. Well, again, sometimes God also uses dreams and visions. The interview he did there was with Tom Doyle. He's been in the studio with us.

[00:14:43] I've known him for many years, and especially these dreams and visions in the Islamic world. And that's why you wanted to have a chapter on that as well. Exactly. I mean, it's been estimated that up to a third of all Muslims who have come to faith in the last couple of decades have had a supernatural dream of Jesus before they converted. And what's interesting to me as someone who tends to be a skeptic is there is corroboration to these dreams.

[00:15:11] In other words, well, first of all, a devout Muslim in a generally closed society or an oppressive society toward the Christian message has no incentive to have a dream about the Jesus of Christianity that might lead them into apostasy and maybe a death sentence. So they're not predisposed to have a dream like this. But what happens is they don't go to sleep and have the dream and then wake up as a Christian. The dreams point them towards something else.

[00:15:37] So, for instance, there was a woman named Nor, mother of eight, and she is in Cairo, and she has a dream in which she encounters Jesus, unlike any dream she's ever had. And Jesus is so mesmerizing, and she feels the love and the grace and just the beauty of Jesus. And she's mesmerized by him. And she says, why do you appear to me? I'm just a poor mother of eight children. And Jesus said, my friend will tell you why tomorrow. And she said, who's your friend?

[00:16:05] And he gestured toward a man who'd been walking with them that he hadn't noticed because she was so mesmerized by Jesus. He said, my friend will tell you. The next day she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo, and she sees that man from her dream. And she goes up to say, you're the one. And he said, what are you talking about? You're the one. Same glasses, same face, same clothes. You're the one. And he said, did you have a dream about Jesus last night? And she said, yes. Turned out he was an underground church planter.

[00:16:31] And he didn't want to go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon because it's chaotic. But he went because he felt God had an assignment for him. So he encounters a door. But here's the key. Here's the corroboration. He pulls her aside, opens the Bible, and shares the gospel. That is the external corroboration that this is more than just a subconscious mind product, you know, of a dream conjured up by a bad pizza they ate the previous night. There is an external component to this.

[00:17:00] I'll give you another example. There's a guy we call Omar who hated Jewish people. Grew up in a refugee camp. He was going to join Hamas. And he's on the road walking to a place to meet with the Hamas leaders to join that terrorist organization when all of a sudden he's confronted by a vision of Jesus. And Jesus points to him and says, Omar, this is not the life I have for you. I want you to turn around. I want you to go home. This is not the life I have for you. Well, he's stunned by this.

[00:17:30] He never had this experience before. He turns around. He goes home. That afternoon, a Christian family moved into the apartment across the hall from him. And he went over and he said, I just had this encounter with Jesus. What do you think it means? They opened the Bible. They shared the gospel with him. And today, Omar himself is an underground church planter in the Middle East. So that's the kind of external corroboration that tells me that these are actual supernatural events. Yeah.

[00:17:59] And again, one of the things you are quoting from are some of the work by Tom Doyle, as well as his wife, Joanne. You know, women who risk and dreams and visions is Jesus awakening the Muslim world. And in some respects, they have been toiling there for many decades. But because of the international exposure that you have, you're certainly providing people with more information on that. And I just thought I'd mention real quickly before I go to the break that a couple of the other chapters deal with angels and demons.

[00:18:28] And it does seem to me that sometimes people are actually being entertained by angels unaware. Matter of fact, one of your visitors said he didn't have wings. He didn't have flowing white robe. But it's pretty obvious it was an angel. Can you speak to that? That's exactly true. I mean, we are told in Hebrews to anticipate that there are times when we may very well have an encounter with an angelic bee, entertain one in hospitality, unbeknownst to us as an angel. And we have cases.

[00:18:57] So I tell the case of a story that was reported by Billy Graham where a Scottish missionary went to the South Pacific, and he and his wife were sharing the gospel on this small island, and they had lived in a little cottage. And the local tribespeople got mad. They didn't like the gospel. And so they came to kill them and burn down their house. So he and his wife were praying in their house, Lord, protect us, save us from this mob that's forming outside. And yet by dawn, that mob dissipated and went home.

[00:19:27] Well, about a year later, that missionary led the chief of that tribe to faith in Jesus Christ. And he's talking to him, and he said, do you remember that time that you led a mob to come to my house and kill us and burn our house down? Why didn't you do it? And the guy said, well, who were all those men you had there? And he said, what are you talking about? There are no men. There's just my wife and I. He said, no, no, no. Your house was surrounded by these muscular men in white garments with drawn swords. Well, who were they? They were angels.

[00:19:56] And God had sent them to protect this missionary and his wife. And we see stories like that, accounts like that, that are hard to explain other than the fact that God does send angels at times to protect us. You remember when Jesus was being arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane? He said, could I not call upon my father right now? And he would send legions of angels to protect me?

[00:20:21] And Martin Luther, in his small catechism, has a prayer that says, Lord, send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one. So, you know, we are not to pray to angels. We're not to worship angels. But I think it's perfectly fine to pray to God about angels and say, God, send your holy angels to protect my family and me and my ministry and so forth. And I've started to do that. I didn't used to do that. But after my eyes being opened by the research in this book, I thought it would be a very prudent thing to do.

[00:20:51] I think so. So, and again, we're going to take a break and we'll come back and look at the second part of the book. But it's probably already encouraged you to want to get a copy. But we only have covered six, basically about five of the chapters. And there's much more, which we are going to get to after the break. One more time, just before we take a break, seeing the supernatural, investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters, which we're going to get into in just a minute, and other mysteries of the unseen world.

[00:21:18] All that coming up right after these important messages. Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age. Well, today, there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:21:41] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information. Let me give you a suggestion to help with that. Visit pointofview.net. Look at the tabs across the top. Find the one named Viewpoints. Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news to identify those issues that you really need to know about.

[00:22:10] They boil things down in a brief summary. And then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved. Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints, you'll see exactly what I mean. You'll see the issues that we are covering right now. And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will, you can slide on over, enter your email, and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day. That's it. Take a minute now. Be informed.

[00:22:41] Pointofview.net. Click on Viewpoints. Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. It's a privilege to have with us Lee Strobel, again, the author of this newest book, Seeing the Supernatural. And the first section deals with the supernatural among us in terms of the soul and miracles, spiritual encounters, dreams and visions, angels, Satan, and demons. But now, if we can, maybe focus on the supernatural that awaits us, looking at deathbed visions, near-death experiences.

[00:23:37] A lot of these chapters written by people like Dr. Paul Copan or J. Warner Wallace, Ron Rhodes, other individuals we've interviewed on the program. But one of those is this idea of deathbed visions. I remember when I wrote a book years ago for Zondervan on death and dying in the 1970s, there were only just a scant number of books about people that on their deathbed had seen something supernatural. But you interviewed Stephen Miller.

[00:24:07] Steve Miller has actually pulled together a number of books and a number of accounts which show that if really you're a hospice nurse, you probably have seen these examples more frequently. But we're just now starting to find out about them. Yeah, that's really true. By the way, Kirby, before I respond to that, I just want to interject something. And that is I really appreciate the viewpoints or commentaries that you do. And I heard the announcer mention those and how people can sign up to get those.

[00:24:36] And I just think they're excellent and a great way not to just understand the facts about the faith, but how we apply them in our worldview, how we interpret events in our culture and so forth. And so I really would highly encourage your listeners, if they don't already, to I think you go to what? Pointofview.net and sign up. And I know they're both in written form and verbal form, and it'll help you put your faith into action in our contemporary culture. So I just want to say thanks.

[00:25:05] I know those are hard work to do, but you do a great job. Well, thank you. What about this, these deathbed experiences that people have? Yeah. It seems like they're more than we really ever have people record. And you found out quite a bit, didn't you? Yeah, there are tens of thousands of these that have been studied. They're not in New York State and said to the dying people there, if you have a vivid vision, unlike anything you've ever had before, would you please tell us what we'd like to know?

[00:25:34] Because a lot of people who are dying, they don't want to say anything. They think you're going to think I'm crazy or something. Well, guess what? 88% of them reported a pre-death vision. These are incredibly common. And so I think the fact that they're so frequent argues for their authenticity, because if they only happen once in a blue moon, then a skeptic could say, oh, well, you know, billions of people have died over time, and every once in a while some weird thing's going to happen. Don't give it any thought.

[00:26:02] But because they are so common, that tells us there's something behind this. But secondly, we often have, again, I'm looking for corroboration, evidence that these are real. So, for instance, one team of researchers studied 3,000 of these cases. And their conclusion, I'm going to use their words, they said these experiences are definitely not hallucinations, fantasies, or memories caused by grief, nor are they projections of the subconscious mind or products of an overactive imagination.

[00:26:31] There's something going on here. And here's the corroboration. Many times people will see, just like Stephen, you know, in the Book of Acts, they talked about Stephen, or the Holy Spirit, who's about to be stoned to death. But he has this vision where he sees the heavens open up, and he sees the Father and the Son together. Well, this is similar. People who are on their deathbed will have a vision of what is to come. So there's a case of a woman named Doris. This is in England. She's dying. And she sees the heavens open up.

[00:27:01] She sees angelic beings. She sees her father, who had died several years earlier, kind of welcoming her. And then she sees someone else. And she says, wait a minute. What is Vida doing with my father? What is Vida doing there? That makes no sense. Why is Vida there? And then she died. Well, Vida was her sister. And her sister, Vida, had died a couple of weeks earlier. But nobody had told Doris because she was so ill they didn't want the shock of it to kill her.

[00:27:30] So they kept this news from her. And yet, in her vision of the life to come, she saw her now-deceased sister. That is incredibly common. So that's a kind of corroboration to tell us this is something more than just, you know, a product of overactive imaginations. And, again, you have, of course, examples of multiple witnesses. You have the one of children. Because some people might say, well, this is what people would expect to see. But children don't have that expectation.

[00:27:57] So you really cover all the bases in a way that that is, I think, very significant. And that also leads to the other chapter. And that is these extraordinary near-death experiences. And, of course, when we've interviewed you before about NDEs, near-death experiences, we've talked a lot about John Burke. And, of course, he is an individual that you've interviewed. He also gives a very nice endorsement of your book. Yeah. Yeah. And, of course, he's the expert who studied 1,500 near-death experiences. He's a Christian pastor.

[00:28:28] And his analysis is that when you look at not how people interpret what they experience, but what actually takes place in a near-death experience, it is consistent with Scripture. Now, the difference between a near-death experience and a deathbed vision is in a near-death experience, someone is clinically dead. They may have no brain waves, no respiration, no heartbeat, but they're going to come back. They're going to be revived. But in the case of deathbed visions, these are people who are about to permanently die. So that's kind of the difference there.

[00:28:58] But, again, I'm looking for corroboration. And so we look at the case of a woman who was dying in a hospital, and she says, I was conscious the whole time. She said, my spirit separated from my body, exactly as the Bible says, and I was floating near the ceiling watching the resuscitation efforts on my body. And then when she was revived, her spirit returned to her body. And she said, by the way, you know, there's a ceiling fan here in the hospital room.

[00:29:26] If you look on the top of the ceiling fan, which was invisible from the room because it's the top of the fan, but she saw it from her perspective near the ceiling. She thought there's a red sticker. And she described it in great detail. Well, they got a ladder. They went up and they looked. And sure enough, on the top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan, there's the red sticker. So now that's the kind of corroboration I'm looking for, something that tells me that apart from an actual out-of-body experience, that's inexplicable.

[00:29:55] And we have the case of the young girl who drowned in Utah in a swimming pool at the YMCA. And she had no brain waves, no heartbeat, no respiration for, I think, 20 minutes. They take her to the hospital. She's on a machine to keep her body alive while they decide what to do. And she says, but I was conscious the whole time. And when her parents came to visit her, she said, I followed them home.

[00:30:20] And she was able to describe what her mother cooked for dinner, what her parents were wearing, where her father was sitting, what toys her brother was playing with, things that she would have no way of knowing if her spirit had not followed that family back to their home at that time. So these are remarkable, and they tell us that the Bible is telling us the truth when it says that, you know, when we die, our spirit separates from our body. Now, again, these are people who are going to return.

[00:30:49] These are people who are clinically dead, but they're going to be revived. Well, and again, you've talked about, of course, deathbed visions, near-death experiences. But I thought it was really appropriate that you put in a piece with Scott McKnight on what we can know about heaven, because ultimately some people might say, okay, these people are closer to death than you and I have ever been. But what is really on the other side? And that's why I thought that chapter was so key for people that will get this book as well.

[00:31:16] Yeah, a lot of people think that heaven is going to be a place up in the clouds somewhere when we're kind of ghostly apparitions and we're playing harps and singing worship songs all the time. When in reality, it's going to be renewal of our world without the sin that has corroded our world. And so it will be a very physical place where we will be alive, interacting with other people

[00:31:40] and worshiping God in our now redeemed bodies, our bodies that have been transformed for a supernatural existence, as Jesus' body was the same body that he died in. And yet, when he was resurrected, it had some different qualities to it. And so one of the things he points out is so many Christians, despite our well intentions, when we die, we're going to be at odds with some other people.

[00:32:10] You know, we're going to have some arguments or something with some other Christians. And no, it's not a good thing to do, but yes, we end up doing it. And Scott McKnight believes that the first thing that's going to happen in heaven is it'll be a time of reconciliation. And so I had a terrible experience with my father. We had a very difficult relationship. He told me on the eve of my high school graduation, I don't have enough love for you to fill my little finger. But he was a Christian. I believe he's in heaven.

[00:32:39] And I believe now he is fully repentant of his attitudes and wanting to be reconciled. So I'm repentant of the things that drove me to live a rebellious life that pushed all my dad's buttons and so forth. So when I get to heaven, there'll be a reconciliation. We'll both want to be reconciled. And we'll then be able to be in a father-son relationship for eternity like we wish we had had in this world.

[00:33:06] So I think that's an interesting insight into what might happen. And maybe it's an instantaneous thing. Maybe it's the first hour in heaven. But there's got to be some opportunity for reconciliation because, you know, despite our best intentions, we're often at odds with other believers. That's right. Well, let's take a break. And when we come back, we'll get into a couple of other issues. One, of course, is a chapter by J. Warner Wallace on the evidence for the resurrection. But, of course, we've talked about that before.

[00:33:33] But I did want to focus a little bit of time on our good friend Ron Rhodes because ghost stories, psychics, and the paranormal, a lot of people interested in the supernatural, but they're going in the wrong direction. We'll talk about that with Lee Strobel right after this. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] Lee Strobel with us for a few more minutes as we talk about his book, Seeing the Supernatural. Let me just mention there are other chapters we haven't had a chance to get to, Heaven and Hell and evidence for life after death because of the resurrection. But I did want to focus some time, Lee, on this last chapter that you have before the conclusion on ghost stories, psychics, and the paranormal. As you well know, we produced these booklets, and the one I have that just came out is on what I call false spirituality because we're running into so many people that say,

[00:34:30] I'm spiritual but not religious. Now, sometimes that means I'm just a seeker, but sometimes it means I'm going to get involved with psychic stuff or yoga or the paranormal. And that has a real draw, and that's certainly one of the reasons why you thought it was appropriate to write this book. That's exactly right, and it is so important because, for example, I have this chapter. I deal with psychics and with ghosts and things like that.

[00:34:55] Well, we're told specifically in Scripture not to get involved with mediums or psychics. And we're told that this is an abomination to the Lord. Well, you know, when people get involved with that kind of stuff, of course they're going to get led into all kinds of demonic activity. Very dangerous stuff. And in my book, I expose the various ways that psychics try to fool people into thinking that they know more than they do.

[00:35:21] And ghosts, you know, the true definition of a ghost is a spirit of someone who has died, but that spirit refuses to enter into the afterlife. Well, I don't see an example of that in Scripture. And so I'm skeptical of these kinds of things, and I think we have to be very careful. I have a whole chapter on the demonic. And we have to be very careful. These apparitions that people encounter that they interpret as being ghosts are most often, I think, demonic in origin.

[00:35:51] Yes. And that's something we need to be aware of. And, you know, it's been said many times that there's two big mistakes we make involving the demonic. We either deny it exists or we see a demon under every bush. And I think both those approaches are dangerous. But we have to recognize that there is a demonic realm. And while demons cannot become embodied in a Christian, in other words, they can't possess a Christian, they can hector us.

[00:36:21] They can bother us. They can, you know, throw stones at us and so. And one of the ways I think that Satan seeks to confuse us is through these apparitions that we interpret as being ghosts. So I have a section from Ron Rhodes, our good friend, who talks about how we can discern that and what steps we can take to put on the full armor of God to protect ourselves from that.

[00:36:46] By the way, I was doing a national radio show a couple of weeks ago, and the topic of demons came up. And when it came up, we heard this guttural growl, like, come up. And I'm thinking, am I imagining that? So when the show was over, I called the host. I said, did you hear that? And he said, yeah. He said, wasn't me, wasn't you. What was that? And we actually have it on tape.

[00:37:13] And I thought it was interesting that it happened right when we began talking about the demonic. And could it be an example of demons trying to harass us? Well, I think it could be an example of that. You know, Ron Rhodes, who you interviewed, I've asked him before. I mean, how do you bear reading some of the books? I mean, I wouldn't even want to go into his library. And he says, well, my wife always tries to keep me accountable and said I should read two positive books before one of the negative ones.

[00:37:39] But nevertheless, he's made a good case that sometimes people even say, well, what about Samuel supposedly appeared to Saul? And isn't that an example of a ghost? And I think he's done a very good job of clarifying that. So I do want people to know that if you're dealing right now with somebody who's kind of into the psychics, this book might get them, first of all, to understand biblical understanding and hear these incredible stories. And second of all, warning.

[00:38:05] But you end at the end by talking about what the unseen world means to you today. And one point of that is, you say, our soul points to the supernatural. And it does seem to me that the way this book is written and the wisdom of your editors at Zondervan make this a book that I would want to hand to a lot of individuals. Can you speak to that? Yeah, I mean, my hope is that Christians will read the book, as many have, and say it deepened my faith.

[00:38:33] It opened my eyes to some things I wasn't aware of, and my faith is stronger and deeper. I have more courage now because things have been put into perspective. But then my hope is they'll give the book away to a friend like someone you mentioned, someone who's spiritually confused, maybe someone who's dabbling with Ouija boards or with psychics or whatever, and give it to them hoping that the common interest in supernatural things might be an open door to them learning the gospel.

[00:39:00] And in the book at the end, in the last chapter, the gospel is clearly spelled out for those that want to receive Christ. So I'm an evangelist at heart. I want to see people come to faith in Christ. And I hope this can be a vehicle for achieving that. Well, again, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this, because you certainly do address angels and demons. We didn't talk much about demons and some of the dreams and a variety of others.

[00:39:24] But in some respects, the first couple of chapters are really helpful for the non-Christian who's kind of a materialist, an atheist, a skeptic like you were, who is saying, well, there's really no supernatural. The second section of your book is really for the person that maybe is a little too overly spiritual in some respects. And maybe going down the wrong path.

[00:39:49] So it's really one of those very unique books, I think, that you have written that I can give to people all over the spectrum. And they're going to benefit from some of the chapters in your book. Well, I appreciate that. I really seek out these experts, many of whom you know personally, people who are leaders in their field with PhDs who understand this stuff and yet are strong believers whose beliefs are grounded in Scripture.

[00:40:16] And I ask them the tough questions I had when I was a skeptic and the questions that commonly are asked about these topics. And I kind of force them to put the cookies on the bottom shelf. In other words, to explain this stuff in a way, if I can understand it, anybody can understand it. So that's my goal. Let me just mention before I let you go that we do have a link to leestroble.com. So that's the place where you can find out about this book or any other and books and speaking. Let me also encourage people to schedule you to come and speak.

[00:40:45] I've had the privilege many times of sitting in the audience when you have wowed people with some of the stories you've told and certainly educated us. So there is an opportunity for people to connect up with you. There's a contact button as well. And, again, trying to even list all the books that you have would take a little too long. But, again, it is such a great opportunity always to spend time with you. And so thank you for being with us today here on Point of View. Well, I appreciate you, Kirby, and all that your ministry does.

[00:41:15] You are so important to the kingdom and making a huge difference in so many lives. Again, let me just, before we go, mention that we do have some of those links. And we have the link to leestroble.com. And some of the most recent books, of course, this one we talk about seeing the supernatural, the case for heaven, one that we certainly have recommended time and time again, Is God Real? It is amazing. Every second of the day, hundreds of individuals type into some kind of search engine,

[00:41:44] Does God Exist? Is God Real? And this was an attempt to really answer some of those questions. Of course, we've talked about some of his other books, like Do Miracles Exist? So you are going to find lots of great resources there on the website of Lee Strobel. But, of course, you can also find them on our website, which is pointofview.net. He was gracious enough to mention that if you haven't signed up to receive my Viewpoints commentary, well, that's available there. And it is certainly there. We, of course, have videos.

[00:42:13] We have Take Action. And if you find yourself saying, I'd like to listen to this again, I'd like to pass it on to someone else, you can go to our website right now and you can click on that button that says Watch or Listen. And that can then be a link that you could send to someone who would benefit from listening to this. I am quite sure that Megan is going to put the point of view highlights on Spotify from some of this. So, again, that's another place where you can find that.

[00:42:39] And we really want to put it in your hands so that you can have a dynamic ministry. But one last time, the book is entitled Seeing the Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World, published by Zondervan, written by Lee Strobel. And you've been listening to Point of View.

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