Point of View May 8, 2024 – Hour 2 : Beyond Our Control

[00:00:00] And now, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] You know sometimes we think we actually have control over our lives and yet I think we oftentimes

[00:00:25] learn that much of what happens is beyond our control and that's what we're going to

[00:00:30] be talking about this hour.

[00:00:32] It is a new book that came out in November beyond our control, let go of unmet expectations,

[00:00:37] overcome anxiety and discover intimacy with God.

[00:00:41] I'll warn you ahead of time we're going to be talking about everything from infertility

[00:00:45] to adoption to illness to loss.

[00:00:48] I mean we are going to cover the gamut of those emotions and feelings and we are going

[00:00:54] to do that with two friends of this ministry.

[00:00:56] First of all Lauren Green McAfee who is the founder of Stand for Life.

[00:01:01] She's also the ministry director of Hobby Lobby, author of Only One Life Not What You Think,

[00:01:07] a legacy study created in the image of God.

[00:01:10] Pursuing a PhD in Ethics and Public Policy, we've talked about that work that she is doing

[00:01:16] and of course with her father helped found the museum of the Bible worked as curator

[00:01:20] and artifact collection manager and much more.

[00:01:24] So Lauren welcome back to Point of View.

[00:01:26] Hey thanks for having me it's great to be with you again.

[00:01:29] So Michael is with us as well.

[00:01:30] He is the president and founder of Inspire Experiences.

[00:01:34] He also is a PhD student studying public theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and

[00:01:42] an individual that is also a teaching pastor and so Michael welcome back as well.

[00:01:47] Thanks it's great to be with you.

[00:01:49] Lauren let me come to you because first of all the introduction if you will the

[00:01:54] preface for the book and the forward is by Dr. John Townsend reminds us that of course

[00:02:00] we sometimes misinterpret various passages in scripture and that almost immediately leads

[00:02:08] us into the first chapter about some of the half lives we tend to believe.

[00:02:14] We have these they're sort of true but they're half lies and as a result we tend

[00:02:19] to maybe not necessarily understand scripture and think that maybe indeed we actually have

[00:02:26] a handle on biblical interpretation when we really do not.

[00:02:30] Right well that's it we wanted to really start from the outset as we as we were diving

[00:02:36] into this book and we're going to be talking about challenges that we have faced in our

[00:02:40] lives really address what we kind of might have as beliefs or preconceived ideas about

[00:02:48] what God owes us or what it means to live a Christian life and so we're grateful that

[00:02:55] our friend Dr. John Townsend who many might know as the author of the best line book

[00:03:00] boundaries as well as many other books he's helped us just as a friend process through

[00:03:06] some of this and think through what what does the scripture say and as we've done

[00:03:10] our says what does the scripture say about when we come up against hard things in life

[00:03:14] and many times we'll read passages where we see you know God has good in mind for us he

[00:03:22] promises to give us blessings and good things and while those are true we do have to look at the

[00:03:28] whole of scripture to gain the full perspective of what it is that is that picture of life on

[00:03:36] this earth and serving the Lord in in every area of our lives and you don't have to

[00:03:42] look very far in scripture to also see that there will be pain and there will be hard circumstances

[00:03:48] and even even if you're doing all the right things and you're trying to serve the Lord

[00:03:54] pain and hardship will still come in this life and we see over and over in the scripture if

[00:04:01] you look at particular examples even just the book the entire book of Job is about that narrative of

[00:04:08] you know here is this person who lived an upright life and was being praised as someone who was

[00:04:16] honoring the Lord yet he was still faced with obviously tragedy in his life and great loss

[00:04:23] and so the Lord will use painful circumstances losses in our lives things that are outside of

[00:04:31] our control to draw us closer to him to bring glory to himself and as well use that for our good

[00:04:40] and so a lot of the book is trying to unpack that but we wanted to start with kind of what might be

[00:04:47] some misconceptions that we have whenever we do face pain and I think probably a lot of people

[00:04:53] whenever they've walked through a painful circumstance can reflect back on what their

[00:04:57] initial reaction and I know for myself it was you know questions like why is this happening

[00:05:04] why would God allow this to happen in my life and those questions were telling me something

[00:05:11] about what I was believing which was that that you know hard things or these bad things

[00:05:16] shouldn't happen in my life and and you know scripture like I said scripture doesn't promise

[00:05:22] that we're going to have an easy life and it doesn't promise that hard things won't come our

[00:05:26] way but one of the promises we can cling to is that God is with us always even in the painful

[00:05:33] circumstances Michael let me come to you because you of course wrote this chapter and I think

[00:05:37] they're really telling part was if you look at Psalm 127 that children are a blessing from

[00:05:45] the Lord and a reward I have heard many an infertile couple say well if that's a reward

[00:05:51] why is God cursing me and I first came to that understanding years ago when I'd written a book

[00:05:58] on genetic engineering and honestly thought if I heard from anybody it would be about these new

[00:06:02] genetic techniques but instead because I'd had a chapter in there about artificial reproduction

[00:06:09] I was instead hearing from all sorts of modern-day hannas who were desiring children

[00:06:17] and wanting to know more about some of those technologies and if you are dealing with infertility

[00:06:24] you can understand why some people say wait a minute if God loves me why is it I can't have a child

[00:06:30] yeah exactly like what why would God keep something that he says is a blessing that he

[00:06:37] seemingly that is a promise that it is a something that we will receive you know over and over again

[00:06:42] you see promises throughout scripture of seemingly like if I do x then God will reward me with y

[00:06:50] so why if I don't have y if I don't have the reward then why is God not holding up his bargain or am

[00:06:55] I not doing if I'm not good enough they might not holding up my end of the bargain and so

[00:07:00] it makes tries to turn God into this like cosmic slot machine right where like or cosmic

[00:07:05] vending machine where you put in the coins and then you know type in what you want and

[00:07:10] that was the half half lie there are the half truth that that I was believing as we were delving into

[00:07:16] this is realizing that I had expectations that so many things have gone well for me had gone right

[00:07:22] we have a great wife we have a house we have food on our table we have all these things I just

[00:07:27] took for granted as oh well these are things that I have because of what I've done and as a

[00:07:32] result not only was I uh have a misconception of what I should expect in life and that God

[00:07:39] tells us that we should expect hardship because of the fall but also I was denying God the very worship

[00:07:45] that he created and crafted me to give to him where I would explode with joy and gratitude for all the

[00:07:50] things that I do have and so um those those half truth I mean especially it relates to

[00:07:56] things like fertility which we've struggled with for years now we've wanted to have biological

[00:07:59] kids for coming up on a decade and that is not to this point been the Lord's will for our

[00:08:04] lives and and we don't have answers and we're not the the saddest story anyone's ever read

[00:08:08] but we're I think just a very normal couple of grappling with our own story through infertility

[00:08:13] through adoption through childhood cancer uh in beyond our control just asking okay Lord why

[00:08:19] why is it that we're not receiving the type of life that we expected and what is it that

[00:08:23] you're trying to offer us instead because what ultimately God gives us is better than what we

[00:08:29] asked for but it's just not better in the way we expected it to be.

[00:08:32] Let's take a break and when we come back we'll continue our conversations we talk about

[00:08:36] this new book came out in November published by Thomas Nelson beyond our control Lauren and Michael

[00:08:42] McAfee with us and we'll be back with them right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] This election year is certain to bring some significant surprises and one of them is the

[00:09:07] possibility of a presidential tie. Dr. Miro Matthews was on my radio program recently to talk

[00:09:12] about his article on the hill. A presidential candidate needs 270 electoral votes to win.

[00:09:17] Most people believe that much of the electoral map is already determined.

[00:09:21] That means that President Joe Biden can be expected to win 226 electoral votes while former President

[00:09:27] Donald Trump can be expected to win 219. The remaining 93 electoral votes come from the seven

[00:09:34] swing states. If Biden won North Carolina, Georgia and Arizona and Trump won Michigan,

[00:09:39] Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Nevada both would have 269 electoral votes. Another scenario is

[00:09:46] if Biden won Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia and Arizona and Trump won Pennsylvania, North Carolina

[00:09:51] and Michigan there would also be a 269 vote tie. In either case the House would determine who

[00:09:57] serves as president and the Senate would determine who serves as vice president. The outcome

[00:10:01] is less likely because of the real possibility of faithless electors. Most states require

[00:10:07] their electors to vote for the state's winner although there are two states where you

[00:10:11] can split their vote. Some states, including some swing states, do not have a law prohibiting

[00:10:15] faithless electors. In that case one or two electors could decide who would be the next president.

[00:10:21] One final point, a third party candidate could change some of these calculations as well.

[00:10:26] Independent Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and prospective Green Party candidate Jill Stein

[00:10:31] will likely affect the vote especially in some of these swing states. Perhaps you can see now

[00:10:36] why I say that this may be a very significant number of surprises in this election. I'm Kirby

[00:10:42] Anderson and that's my Point of View. For a free copy of Kirby's booklet, A Biblical View on Loneliness,

[00:10:51] go to viewpoints.info slash loneliness. That's viewpoints.info slash loneliness.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Baguette Skin, while we are talking with Lauren Michael McAfee again the book is entitled

[00:11:08] Beyond Our Control, letting go of unmet expectations, overcoming anxiety and discover intimacy with God.

[00:11:16] Well Lauren, let's if we can talk about Zion, your daughter diagnosed with cancer when still a baby

[00:11:23] and that of course not only gets us into the issue of misconceptions but expectations.

[00:11:30] Can you kind of fill out the story for us? Yeah so for those that are familiar with our

[00:11:35] story you just hinted at it but we you know along with our infertility journey we were also

[00:11:40] pursuing adoption and so we were in the adoption process that was actually the first way that we

[00:11:46] tried to grow our family was through adoption and began pursuing that and ended up our

[00:11:54] international adoption, kept having roadblocks and delays and issues that were beyond our

[00:12:01] control and after seven years of pursuing adoption and praying that the Lord would bring us a child

[00:12:08] through adoption we finally brought home our daughter Zion from China and she was a year and

[00:12:14] a half old and we brought her home and we were just getting used to you know the first

[00:12:20] season of parenthood and being a family of three and then we were doing some routine

[00:12:26] medical checks when we got a phone call and said that we needed to rush to the emergency room,

[00:12:31] the children's hospital and that our daughter had a tumor on her liver and it ended up being cancer

[00:12:40] so here we had a one and a half year old we had been parents for a month and a half

[00:12:46] and now we were walking cancer with our with our daughter and that was a moment in life that

[00:12:54] you know you just you never expect to have to walk through a diagnosis like that

[00:13:00] and I remember thinking it felt so unfair that we had waited for seven years for this child and now

[00:13:08] just you know less than two months in having that longing fulfilled and here we were navigating

[00:13:16] a life-threatening cancer diagnosis and whenever you say that you believe something it's one thing

[00:13:26] to say that when things are things are going okay and things are good but to have those beliefs

[00:13:32] in the moment where what you believe is being tested and you're going through a difficult season

[00:13:39] you're going through those trials it's a very different thing to continue to believe that and

[00:13:46] I think those seasons where your beliefs are kind of pressed and you are pushed to grapple with

[00:13:53] and wrestle with what you believe are really seasons that can bring about great great blessing

[00:14:01] because it can solidify what you have said you believe in a way that you can't experience if

[00:14:08] you don't go through the hard times so you know for me that looks like questioning God's goodness

[00:14:14] and if he was really in control then why would he allow this to happen and so I had to continue

[00:14:20] to go back to scripture and look for truth about what God says about himself and remind myself

[00:14:27] of his character even though things seemed so bleak and so dark in my own life circumstances

[00:14:35] and having watched through that and coming out on the other side

[00:14:39] feeling that you know I even though I had said that I believe this in the good times I also

[00:14:46] still believed it thanks to you know God and his voice very giving me the strength in those moments

[00:14:51] it meant something deeper having watched through that and thankfully with Zion's experience she

[00:14:57] did come out on the other side of that in remission and she's almost four years into remission

[00:15:02] now but certainly those seasons of darkness most seasons of trials can give us

[00:15:08] a certain strength to our faith and our belief that we might have not had otherwise

[00:15:12] Michael let me talk to you for a moment because again as a teaching pastor it seems to me that

[00:15:17] the lesson of this book and maybe the lesson of how you teach is the chapter talks about the

[00:15:23] misplaced hope in control the illusion of control and then the reality of control and it does

[00:15:30] seem to me that if we're going to equip people for the 21st century or just really equip them for life

[00:15:36] they're going to have to give up this idea that I can be a micromanager and that I can control my

[00:15:42] life because that's just not the way things work out yes that's exactly right I mean the

[00:15:48] idea that we're kind of masters of our own fate that that's not as much a a biblical concept

[00:15:54] as it is a product of of enlightenment thinking and so for for us saying that the life is beyond

[00:16:02] our control isn't meant to lead us to just kind of a fatalistic worldview by any means or anything

[00:16:07] like that but but it is to say that uh well we were talking about last segment that hey recognize

[00:16:13] that everything you have in your life that we so often attribute uh the things that we have

[00:16:19] to ourselves and to our own efforts and and deny the fact that it is god and so likewise when we

[00:16:25] look forward to things that we want we think it's within our grasp and if we don't have it it's

[00:16:29] because we're not working hard enough for because we don't have enough faith or because

[00:16:33] of some other reason and the reality is that ultimately our hope is not that life is going

[00:16:39] to get better and better in this world our hope is not that uh for anyone that's you know

[00:16:43] that listening that's missed out on a promotion or a job opportunity or lost their job recently

[00:16:47] that there's a better career around the corner for them or a relationship that's broken that there's

[00:16:52] a more significant relationship or a better spouse that's or whatever it is that we so often want to

[00:16:58] say well i know things are bad now but they're going to get better in this life you can have hope

[00:17:04] that things are going to turn around for you in terms of your earthly existence and the reality

[00:17:08] is is it might just get worse or it might never be quite the same uh that while uh Zion did

[00:17:15] her health has recovered that our other story is with our son Ezra who um we had for a year we expected

[00:17:22] to adopt was a a member of our household and through some unusual court circumstances we had to

[00:17:28] say goodbye and and representing just our pain the pain of the hopeful adopted parent uh

[00:17:35] that pain was ultimately uh drove us to seek deeper intimacy with god and a greater hope

[00:17:41] beyond uh what we could experience in this life with Ezra well let's if we can michael talk about

[00:17:46] that because you have a chapter that you've written on intimacy the joy of his presence and it does

[00:17:52] seem to me that some people might think okay pain grief lament intimacy or how does that all

[00:17:59] fit together can you help us out yeah absolutely well that's the idea is if you look at scripture

[00:18:06] it's clear and it's consistent that god not only allows but ordains difficult circumstances in our

[00:18:12] life for the purpose of bringing us into greater intimacy with him so we even laid out the chapters

[00:18:19] in the form of a chiasm with the the center of that chiasm or in other words the point of

[00:18:24] the arrow so to speak aiming at intimacy with god when god does take something from us he intends

[00:18:30] to replace it not necessarily with something better in this life but with more of himself and that is

[00:18:36] better than whatever he has taken from us giving him us more of his presence more of himself uh he

[00:18:43] is uh the purpose he is the point he is the joy that we've been seeking in all other things in

[00:18:49] this life and so that's that's the pruning that often happens where we get more of the true

[00:18:53] vying well and that kind of relates to a conversation i had with my producer the other day you know

[00:18:57] if god closes the door well that's because he has something better for you no no necessarily

[00:19:03] there may be better in the sense spiritually but uh you know if you don't get this job promotion

[00:19:09] well maybe there's a better job promotion no not nice those are kinds of things that

[00:19:13] really need to be kind of set aside and again it's back to some of those misconceptions

[00:19:19] we're coming up to a break and i thought maybe when we come back i would have uh

[00:19:23] lauren and michael both of you to maybe address some of these issues maybe we'll start in the

[00:19:27] negative in terms of grief and lament but then talk about prayer and hope and peace

[00:19:35] perspective even perseverance because those are important aspects of that as well

[00:19:40] and let me just mention that this book actually has 11 chapters like he says it all points to

[00:19:46] chapter six which we just talked about in terms of intimacy but what i think is so helpful

[00:19:52] about the way this book is put together is for those of you that maybe have a small group or a

[00:19:56] Sunday school class as you go through that chapter then there's a section at the end of the chapter

[00:20:04] in which you have a chance to collect your thoughts and uh you can begin to find some

[00:20:10] questions there's a way in which you might get some journaling ideas and then there's a whole

[00:20:16] section on how to address some of those particular questions so again it is written in such a way

[00:20:23] that you may actually not only want to go through this individually but it may be something that you

[00:20:29] could go through collectively through various groups so let me just simply mention that these

[00:20:34] are some resources that are available and if you would like to know more about any of the

[00:20:40] individuals we're talking about today we of course have a link to for example standforlife.com

[00:20:46] that will give you some great information there we also of course have some other information

[00:20:51] about michael.bible and of course we have information about the book you should be able

[00:20:57] to find it in your local bookstore it is published by thomas nelson and again it's a book with

[00:21:03] about 200 pages some very significant chapters and i think if nothing else would be just a

[00:21:09] great help for all of us but especially if you're going through a difficult time to recognize that

[00:21:15] this book is about beyond our control let go of unmet expectations overcome anxiety and discover

[00:21:22] intimacy with god we'll continue your conversation right after this many years ago they began

[00:21:33] saying that we live in the information age well today there is so much information coming at us

[00:21:39] from every direction the hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important and how can i

[00:21:46] make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information let me

[00:21:53] give you a suggestion to help with that visit point of view dot net look at the tabs across the top

[00:22:00] find the one named viewpoints kirby anderson and others on our team are constantly watching

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[00:22:12] summary and then you can decide if it's something on what you want to learn more and get involved

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[00:23:01] the opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management

[00:23:08] or staff of this station and now here again is kirby anderson continue conversation today as we

[00:23:15] talk about this new book beyond our control that go of unmet expectations overcome anxiety

[00:23:21] and discover intimacy with god lauren and michael maciphy with us and we are talking about

[00:23:27] some of these very important issues of control and lauren i thought maybe i would come to you for

[00:23:32] just a minute and we have done some programs in the past about everything from grief to lament

[00:23:38] but that is a very significant part of this whole moving towards intimacy with god can you

[00:23:45] maybe share a little bit from your own experience yeah i think it considering and processing grief

[00:23:53] especially this time of year is a really important topic i think with holidays that can often bring

[00:23:58] up reminders of pain points in life whether it's lost relationships loved ones who have passed and

[00:24:05] are no longer here or you know painful relationships and so i'm glad glad that we're getting the

[00:24:12] chance to talk about this so we write about grief in our book because having walked through

[00:24:18] you know cancer with our daughter and then having had a son for a year that we had to say goodbye to

[00:24:26] we certainly had to navigate what grief looked like for us and i i want to you know first look at

[00:24:35] what we can see from scripture which is that god created all human beings in the image of god

[00:24:42] and so as image bearers we are created to reflect god and we're not we are not god but we are created

[00:24:49] in his image which means that there are certain things we reflect that are like him and so god

[00:24:55] as an emotional being as someone that has positive emotions he created good things he can enjoy things

[00:25:04] we were created with emotions as well and so as we consider how we were created with emotions

[00:25:12] and for those emotions to be stewarded and processed in a healthy way i think we can then approach grief

[00:25:19] knowing that in a fallen world there are negative emotions and so we will experience

[00:25:27] you know pain loss sadness grief and in scripture we see also a lot of processing of

[00:25:36] negative emotions in the form of lament so lament just means to express your grief we have the book

[00:25:44] of lamentations which is a book with the word lament in it you know it's the book about

[00:25:49] the lament of god's people and you look in the Psalms and you see the psalmist

[00:25:56] writing about and kind of journaling through their prayers and their lament before god

[00:26:03] and so as we see that example we can know that as we do face the pain in our own lives and try

[00:26:10] and process that it is good to acknowledge and make space for the negative emotions of sadness

[00:26:16] and grief and to acknowledge that and someone that wrote a number of resources that were

[00:26:25] really helpful for me was a christian psychologist named diane langberg dr diane langberg and she

[00:26:31] gave a really helpful kind of three-step process for for navigating grief which i thought was helpful

[00:26:39] and that is that it takes talking so you know having community to process that with health

[00:26:45] healthy and safe relationships you can process through your pain as well as talking to god in

[00:26:49] prayer so healing from grief takes talking it takes tears so allowing that emotion to come out

[00:26:57] and then also it takes time that healing is a process and time is a part of that healing process

[00:27:03] and so as we in christian community and with the lord take part in talking a lot for our cheers

[00:27:10] and and give it time god can work to heal us from those wounds that we have and from our grief

[00:27:17] michael let me come to you because as a pastor you recognize that we don't have a whole lot of

[00:27:22] messages that we give from the pulpit or even in life groups or small group messages on lament

[00:27:30] and yet there's of course a chapter in here about prayer and lament is a prayer in pain

[00:27:35] that leads to trust and does seem to me that we need to begin to equip people in our churches

[00:27:41] and in the body of christ to understand how that actually works right yeah absolutely i mean i

[00:27:47] i think it is such a it's a it's important to recognize that it is a spiritual discipline

[00:27:51] and that it is good for us that we were that jesus himself jesus is the um

[00:27:58] you know the the truest expression of what it means to be human not only what it means to be

[00:28:03] god and that in his humanity that christ not only went through suffering but he was a man that

[00:28:10] was acquainted with sorrow and was acquainted with grief that he goes to the funeral of his beloved

[00:28:17] friend lazarus knowing that he's about to raise him from the dead and yet we get the shortest verse

[00:28:24] in the bible you know what they are it are the superimposed verse structure jesus wept and so

[00:28:29] it is good for us to take time to lament and i think it comes from a good place that we

[00:28:35] or comes from the uh... not that from pure motive often of knowing that the the story of

[00:28:40] the resurrection is the story that while there is a cross that the cross isn't the final word that death

[00:28:45] ultimately is defeated and so because that's the story that we're heading towards at the end

[00:28:50] of revelation i'm preaching revelation 21 this sunday like it because that's the

[00:28:55] culmination of the story we know that there's a happy ending sometimes in our own lives and

[00:28:59] sometimes when we encourage others we want to push forward to that happy ending up before its time

[00:29:06] sort of before resurrection sunday has come and and i know for us at least like as we dealt with

[00:29:12] um our own you know arches version that everyone goes through of hard times and difficulties and

[00:29:17] challenges that it was people that would come alongside of us and we're just kind of okay

[00:29:22] with us being not okay that we're okay with us being in a period of lament and mourning and

[00:29:29] and not a way of wallowing in our pain and that's a fairly good way of

[00:29:32] of not just kind of immediately rushing to hey it you know i know your sad you lost

[00:29:37] as a rather you were able to adopt him but you know you'll be able to adopt another child and

[00:29:41] and you know what like you do that this could happen and so like it's kind of trying to brush

[00:29:46] aside um it's it's it's un it was invalidating in a lot of ways and and you know that not

[00:29:52] their motive by any means but um but those that helped us to recognize the importance

[00:29:57] of lamenting of expressing grief and of processing the loss that we experienced was so helpful in

[00:30:05] that season as we um as we prayerfully uh learned to trust god even in the midst of pain even when

[00:30:12] like the the charles virgin has this great quote of uh god is too wise to be mistaken and he is

[00:30:19] too loving to be unkind and where we cannot trace the hand of god to know what he's doing

[00:30:24] we must learn to trust his heart and so that's ultimately what what lament

[00:30:29] friends and family our community that helped us to lean into prayers of lament

[00:30:34] helped us to do it say lord even though we can't trust you in the midst of this dark circumstance

[00:30:39] and there's no way that we can see where our life is improved because of not having our son

[00:30:44] Ezra in our home lord we will trust you even in the hard times wow loren again we have some

[00:30:50] chapters that kind of look to the end points hope and peace now again it would be tempting for some

[00:30:58] people to think well that's just being polyanna or very naive about the future but there is a sense

[00:31:05] in which as we're talking about this issue of lament of grief of really not having control

[00:31:12] in some respects this issue of hope and peace are very important elements to have

[00:31:18] some of that in perspective yeah that's a good a good reminder that you just mentioned that kind

[00:31:25] of polyanna perspective that i think whenever we do try and point towards hope and peace like michael said

[00:31:32] we don't want to get there too uh not necessarily too quickly but only going there and not acknowledging

[00:31:39] the reality of the pain but as we do acknowledge the pain and and validate the

[00:31:44] real difficulty we also do have the ability as believers to bring with that the joy of hope

[00:31:53] and peace that we can have in this life because of the promises we see in scripture and so as we know

[00:32:01] that the things of this world are not the ultimate day of what our life is to be we can

[00:32:07] know that we have eternity to look forward to and so it's a perspective shift that i think can bring a

[00:32:14] lot of peace and hope whenever we do see this life in light of our eternal promises and not just

[00:32:23] the here and now and so as we look at an eternal perspective we know um you know michael as he said

[00:32:29] is preaching on revelation 21 this this coming sunday and i was reading that passage yesterday

[00:32:36] giving a devotional um with with my staff at the office and i can't help but read that the first

[00:32:43] opening verses of revelation 21 without getting emotional because it is a promise that um the

[00:32:50] lord will come back and make things right and every tear will be wiped away and death will be no more

[00:32:57] and that is a beautiful a beautiful promise that as believers we even as we're in our pain

[00:33:04] and and making space for grief can hold to those promises that give us great strength and in the

[00:33:10] midst of that and great peace and joy that is not explainable in this world right to have

[00:33:17] something that's eternal to hold on to gives us something that the world can't offer and that's

[00:33:22] a part of what can give us peace in the midst of our tumultuous season let's take a break when

[00:33:28] we come back of just a few more points that we can make as we talk about beyond our control

[00:33:34] let go of unmet expectations overcome anxiety and discover intimacy with god

[00:33:39] it's published by thomas nelson written by lauren and michael mackafee we'll be right back

[00:33:56] you're listening to point of view your listener supported source for truth back once again talking

[00:34:03] about the book beyond our control and lauren and michael with us and michael let me come to you

[00:34:07] because perseverance is one of the things you write about you say whenever a stressful situation

[00:34:12] shows up in my life i fall into a worst-case scenario state of mind oh that sounds familiar doesn't it

[00:34:18] and uh we almost catastrophize that and yet there seems to be a need for us to have perspectives so

[00:34:25] there's a chapter which of course lauren has written about perspective and a chapter you've

[00:34:30] written about perseverance but that's important because we need to have an eternal perspective

[00:34:35] and recognize that what looms large at the moment um is going to be so insignificant in light of eternity

[00:34:44] exactly exactly yeah it you know it sounds really depressing to go to worst-case scenario but it's

[00:34:51] a uh it's a a habit an exercise that rather rather than kind of spiraling uh has helped me to go

[00:34:57] okay what's the very worst thing that could happen and realizing in the grand scope of eternity

[00:35:02] is this that bad is this something that i really should if i'm not going to be worried about this

[00:35:06] in 10 000 years when i'm bright shining as the sun like does this does this really need to consume

[00:35:12] my everything today or do i need to just steward this moment in the best way i can

[00:35:16] knowing that ultimately god is the one who's sovereign in control of what's happening before

[00:35:20] me and so i know for myself might when i was in high school i had a youth minister that uh

[00:35:26] challenged me to memorize james chapter one verses two through four which says consider it

[00:35:30] pure joy my brothers when you face trials when you face challenges of of various kinds because why would

[00:35:37] you think that because the testing of your faith develops perseverance and perseverance must finish

[00:35:42] its work so you may become mature and complete lacking in nothing right i mean everyone everyone

[00:35:47] has seen in their own life that they can point back to times of challenges and struggles and

[00:35:52] difficulties at the times that they were refined in the fire to become who who they

[00:35:57] are today and so um lord willing hopefully that that has been a time where you've leaned into god i

[00:36:03] know that as i look back in my life i can say this only by god's grace that when those those waves

[00:36:08] crashed when my parents marriage fell apart when we went through difficult times in our own marriage

[00:36:13] when cancer and unexpected cancer diagnosis hit or when we had to say goodbye to our son

[00:36:18] ezra that all of these things that i could have easily used those to run from god um but

[00:36:25] instead that by his grace that i was able to run towards him or that he rather uh ran towards me

[00:36:31] and beckoned me um to him and so that's that's the hope is that uh through a shift in perspective

[00:36:39] for eternity that we would have the ability to have perseverance knowing that ultimately

[00:36:43] get into the day that roman day 28 is true for all of us that god does work all things together

[00:36:48] for good like we've talked about it's just not necessarily the the simple like your life

[00:36:53] is better in the here and now but it is that you are being made into the type of person that god

[00:36:58] created you to be and he's replacing the desires that you you thought you had for these other things

[00:37:04] and not not taking them away or not not completely replacing the thing that you lost

[00:37:08] until we get to the new heavens in the new earth where all the the sad things will become

[00:37:12] untrue you know lauren let me if i can maybe talk about this idea between an earthly

[00:37:18] perspective and a heavenly perspective because the apostle paul in second chrithians 4 verse 17

[00:37:23] talks about our light and momentary troubles which are achieving for us an eternal glory

[00:37:30] and in some respects remember when i first read that as a christian i thought light and

[00:37:34] momentary i mean i've seen people with some major problems that they have dealt with

[00:37:40] and then it occurred to me that the apostle paul wasn't of actually immune to some of the major

[00:37:47] challenges i mean he had been stoned he'd been shipwrecked he had been incarcerated

[00:37:53] no multiple times beaten um and yet he was saying that when you look at that from an

[00:37:59] eternal perspective what seems so heavy so grievous so unbearable actually will from the

[00:38:08] light of eternity seem like light in momentary troubles yeah that is a shocking concept in some

[00:38:17] ways because i know that when when there are listeners that are in the midst of that really

[00:38:23] deep grief it can feel so um painful and so unbearable and i remember being in that place

[00:38:32] after losing our son asra and for anything to see to be called light uh

[00:38:38] a friend momentary it didn't feel that way and so i think i would hope that listeners hear you

[00:38:46] talk about passage and reflect on that scripture and find encouragement that yes even though that

[00:38:52] the pain is dark um there's hope because of that because of that promise that the lord um in

[00:38:59] light of eternity is is with us and we're not facing the pain alone and um i also would like to

[00:39:07] just mention too that community christian community is so important too in that um as we're walking

[00:39:13] in the pain and as we're reminding ourselves of the promises of the lord that that in

[00:39:17] eternity and the eternal perspective um that these these circumstances in our life are

[00:39:23] going to be considered light and momentary we also um look to the ways that we can be encouraged

[00:39:29] to continue forth in our faith and certainly having christian community around us and for

[00:39:36] michael and i we we continued to to lean into our church and and lean into the believers that

[00:39:44] were around us that we had been living life with and so um christian community was so helpful

[00:39:49] in pointing us towards those promises that you just mentioned when we didn't feel those promises

[00:39:55] and we're we're just so grateful for um the strength of the body of christ holding us up

[00:40:01] whenever we didn't feel like we could hold ourselves up in those promises michael let's talk

[00:40:07] about the value of community and in particular how you could use this book because as i've

[00:40:11] mentioned before but maybe you can go into it in more detail at the end of every one of these

[00:40:16] chapters is there is a chance to collect your thoughts and then usually four questions that you

[00:40:23] suggest and so this is something that as individuals certainly could go through this individually

[00:40:30] i think within the body of christ within a small group setting a life group setting maybe even

[00:40:35] a pastor preaching through this from the pulpit this would be a great encouragement to the body

[00:40:40] christ yeah absolutely and uh and and we would love you know we we speak regularly and so if there

[00:40:47] is anyone that we could encourage either individually or as a church family or a group we'd love to do

[00:40:51] that and and yeah i had someone this week that told me that they have been working through the book

[00:40:56] on their own and then they will bring the question uh to a a group of men that that he's

[00:41:02] a sibling and they'll send out one or two of the questions as a conversation starter and

[00:41:06] so um there's a lot of ways that the book can be used but the that is only as helpful and so far

[00:41:12] as it sparks conversation to point people back to the scriptures and back to the gospel ultimately

[00:41:17] and so that's that's our hope in our prayer with beyond our control and with everything in our

[00:41:21] ministry is that it would point back to christ and point people deeper to the scriptures

[00:41:25] because that's where that's where true hope is found and so even in this hard season i mean

[00:41:30] i know for us as we're approaching it's uh this sunday is two years ago that we

[00:41:34] the last day we saw our son and had to suddenly say goodbye with two hours notice and uh and so christ

[00:41:40] nast season for us as well kind of springs up a lot of those emotions and just as an encouragement

[00:41:46] it has been for us a steady and anchor to know that god himself knows what it is like to suffer

[00:41:52] that uh that christ ultimately uh suffered for us on the cross and that god himself as a father

[00:41:58] knows the loss knows the sting of watching um of giving up his son and watching his son die on

[00:42:03] the cross for us and so whoever's listening that needs to be reminded like we that's the beauty of

[00:42:08] christianity the truth of christianity that god does not stand apart from this world in suffering

[00:42:13] but engages with it and suffers on our behalf so we could be made whole well lauren and michael i

[00:42:18] always appreciate both of you in all the conversations we've had with you the round

[00:42:22] table discussions and the rest and want to thank both of you for uh participating today

[00:42:28] thank you for writing the book beyond our control

[00:42:33] let me just mention that as we wind down the interview that again this is a book

[00:42:38] entitled beyond our control let go of unmet expectations overcome anxiety about 200 pages

[00:42:45] great material that you could go through individually you could go through collectively

[00:42:50] and it's just a great way to recognize that though we think we have control over our lives

[00:42:56] i think we are starting to learn that we don't control as much as we might think so again i hope

[00:43:02] you've enjoyed the interview and i hope you've been enjoying listening to point of view it almost

[00:43:12] seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority they say men can

[00:43:19] be women and women men people are prosecuted differently or not at all depending on their

[00:43:25] politics criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens it's so overwhelming

[00:43:32] so demoralizing you feel like giving up but we can't we shouldn't we must not as winston churchill said

[00:43:41] to britain in the darkest days of world war two never give in never give in never never never

[00:43:48] never yield to force never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy

[00:43:54] and that's what we say to you today this is not a time to give in but to step up

[00:44:00] and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos we can't do it alone but together

[00:44:07] with god's help we will overcome the darkness invest in biblical clarity today at point of

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