Point of View May 20, 2024 – Hour 2 : Mental Health and the Church

[00:00:00] to

[00:00:34] emotional health and that's important for all of us but especially for those

[00:00:38] that are providing spiritual care to us. And so we are privileged to have in

[00:00:42] studio with us Dr. Mark Dance. He is the director of pastoral wellness at

[00:00:47] Guidestone. Matter of fact, we have a link to Guidestone.org. There's a

[00:00:52] ministerial resource center. Oftentimes you think of them as providing economic

[00:00:56] resources and they do, but also we're going to be talking about some of those

[00:01:00] emotional and spiritual resources. He has been a senior pastor for 28 years

[00:01:05] in a number of different churches. After leaving the pastorate, he joined

[00:01:10] Lifeway Christian Resources and is also the co-founder of Care for Pastors. So

[00:01:15] Dr. Mark Dance, thank you for being in studio with us today. Thank you for

[00:01:19] inviting me. I appreciate it. Talk about maybe what pastors are facing right now

[00:01:24] because that's what you are doing to reach out to primarily people in the

[00:01:28] Southern Baptist Convention, but anywhere around the country. And we

[00:01:32] oftentimes want to encourage pastors, but many times don't even know what

[00:01:38] to say to them and recognize that more people are leaving the pastorate than

[00:01:42] actually seem to be coming into the pastorate. So we've got a problem, don't

[00:01:45] we? We do. Yeah, we want them to finish the race that God set before them and so

[00:01:50] Guidestone is happy to help with that as much as we can. And so you're right, Kirby,

[00:01:58] for over a hundred years they've advocated for physical and financial

[00:02:01] health and still do. That's still our primary calling and we want to

[00:02:07] help them prepare for a strong finish. Yet we're also trying to be as

[00:02:13] comprehensive as our great commandments, right? Love the Lord with all the heart, soul,

[00:02:19] mind, and strength. That pretty much covers everything. And as far as your

[00:02:24] question, what are pastors dealing with? The same things they've always dealt

[00:02:27] with. Honestly, the same things that everyone who's listening to this deals

[00:02:31] with. We're all trying to grow in our marriage, right?

[00:02:35] We all try to take care of our bodies and our minds and spiritually we want to

[00:02:39] grow just like everybody else. But probably the most unique thing to my

[00:02:45] tribe, since I've pastored churches for, as you said, for 27 years and then plus a

[00:02:50] couple of interims, is that I think we're the only profession on the planet that

[00:02:56] requires that we succeed both at work and at home. So there's a little

[00:03:01] pressure when you've got your wife and kids in the job description, right?

[00:03:06] It also tells us to manage our homes and to manage our lives, 1 Timothy 3 and 4.

[00:03:10] And if we don't manage our homes and our lives then we're not qualified to

[00:03:15] manage His home. And so I think that's what makes it unique is the

[00:03:19] pressure that's in our job. Well again, you said that this has always been a

[00:03:24] challenge for people in the church and for pastors, but even more so because I

[00:03:29] think of the kind of issues that pastors are having to address in the 21st

[00:03:34] century. And I've said this before, occasionally getting a chance to speak

[00:03:37] at a seminary, I oftentimes will say to students, you're addressing issues

[00:03:42] ranging from in vitro fertilization and end-of-life care, artificial intelligence,

[00:03:52] you're dealing with all sorts of transgender issues and all sorts of

[00:03:57] other topics as well as drug abuse. The list goes on and on that quite frankly a

[00:04:02] pastor in the 1940s and 1950s could not even have imagined having to address. So

[00:04:08] it's in some respects become more difficult and more demanding than ever

[00:04:13] before, hasn't it? I totally agree. Even in the last 36 years, I've seen that.

[00:04:21] It was 1987 when I became a pastor, pastoring a church, and we did not discuss,

[00:04:30] question, try to redefine marriage or sexuality or anything like that. It was

[00:04:35] pretty clear and it's always been clear, still clear in Scripture, but we use a

[00:04:40] pretty old manual there and that's as relevant today as it ever has

[00:04:47] been. What's changed is not just culture, because culture has dipped down to these

[00:04:52] levels of debauchery before in many cultures, but what we have today, I

[00:05:00] mean it's a privilege to sit here before you in this massive platform that

[00:05:04] you've built, but today almost any pastor has a platform. That's true. And so when

[00:05:11] they say something stupid or they do something stupid, everyone knows it. I

[00:05:17] mean it spreads like wildfire. Or if someone wants to challenge them, if they

[00:05:23] have a social media sniper take aim at them, this isn't just someone

[00:05:28] who started a rumor at church, this is someone who's talking in front of all

[00:05:33] their friends and family. And so the pressure again, it goes up because we've

[00:05:38] never been this accessible and never been this vulnerable in

[00:05:43] history, I think of Christianity. Well and again like you said, even while you're

[00:05:47] preaching sometimes they'll go and do a Google search to see if what you said is

[00:05:51] true. Yes. And then of course they also, the pace has picked up because in the

[00:05:55] past if you had a problem you would call the church and the church might not even

[00:05:58] have a secretary answering all the time, but boy if I've got your email or if I

[00:06:02] got your cell phone I can get you 24-7. And that's again, the impact is not only

[00:06:08] just having on your church, but having on your family and that is the case. So for

[00:06:13] just a minute I thought it might be worthwhile for you to share your own

[00:06:16] story because there have been some people covering that story and I'd love

[00:06:19] to have our listeners understand that you're a fellow traveler. You've been

[00:06:23] down this road before haven't you? Absolutely, absolutely. When about 15

[00:06:28] years ago in a church I was serving in Arkansas, Conway, Arkansas, I was there for

[00:06:34] 14 years. In the middle of those 14 years we were in the middle of a

[00:06:38] relocation, a historic downtown church moving to 50 acres and there's still all

[00:06:42] the other things pastors do, marrying and bearing and leading and preaching etc.

[00:06:47] And I had pretty much run out of gas, you know, that I think everyone gets there

[00:06:53] sometime in their life, but not everybody stays there. And I was stuck like I

[00:06:58] couldn't shake it off, I couldn't vacation it off, couldn't sleep it off. And

[00:07:03] so I did something very radical. I knew there was something different, there were

[00:07:07] no moral meltdowns or train wrecks, but I knew I was different. I was avoiding

[00:07:12] conversations, I was avoiding people, I wasn't sleeping well, wasn't eating well.

[00:07:16] I was drastically underweight. I was 167 pounds at 6'1". And I reached out to my

[00:07:24] doctor and I asked him for help. Fortunately he's a friend also and a

[00:07:32] member of the church and he asked me questions that doctors ask patients that

[00:07:35] came to the conclusion that I was clinically depressed.

[00:07:41] And then he said, I'm gonna first of all ask you to throttle down. You

[00:07:49] need to slow down. You need to basically, what he was saying, you need to take the

[00:07:53] cape off and you start practicing Sabbath. And also he gave me some

[00:08:01] medication that he said I'm not sure if this will work, we're gonna try it. If this

[00:08:05] doesn't work, we'll try something else. It's a pretty minor dose, but I said hey

[00:08:09] I'll try anything. And so within a week, okay I've only talked to my

[00:08:14] wife and my doctor, but within a week a licensed therapist who was also a member

[00:08:18] of our church, didn't know my doctor, didn't know we were talking about this.

[00:08:22] She said an appointment came by my office and she only asked two questions.

[00:08:25] She said, do you know that you're clinically depressed and are you taking

[00:08:29] anything for it? Let me take a break because I want to come back and finish

[00:08:33] the story. But again some of you have heard us talk about this with Tommy

[00:08:37] Nelson and others and we're talking today with Dr. Mark Dance and we'll

[00:08:41] continue that conversation right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby

[00:09:01] Anderson. Two weeks ago the president of the University of Florida, Ben Sass,

[00:09:05] wrote an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal. I wish other university

[00:09:09] presidents would read what he wrote and apply these same lessons to their

[00:09:12] college. He tells parents and future employers we're not perfect, but the

[00:09:16] adults are still in charge. The school's response to protests and encampments is

[00:09:20] driven by three basic truths. First, universities must distinguish between

[00:09:25] speech and action. Speech isn't violence. Throwing fists, storming buildings,

[00:09:30] vandalizing property is violence. Universities are supposedly in the

[00:09:34] business of discovering knowledge and passing it on. The heckler gets no veto.

[00:09:38] The best arguments deserve the best counter arguments. Second, universities

[00:09:43] must say what they mean and then do what they say. Administrators at many of the

[00:09:47] colleges are issuing empty threats. He reminds us of how ineffective that is

[00:09:51] with a two-year-old. It doesn't work any better with a 20-year-old. Moving classes

[00:09:56] online is a retreat that penalizes students and rewards protesters. He made

[00:10:01] it clear to protesters that we will always defend your rights to free speech

[00:10:04] and free assembly, but if you cross the line on clearly prohibited activities

[00:10:08] you'll be thrown off campus and suspended. He reminds them that they are a

[00:10:12] university, not a daycare. Third, universities need to recommit themselves

[00:10:16] to real education. He laments that professors in their schools have adopted

[00:10:21] a rigid and dogmatic view of identity politics. As I've mentioned in a previous

[00:10:25] commentary, many of the students chanting from the river to the sea do not even

[00:10:30] know the name of the river or the sea. Ben Sass concludes that there is time for

[00:10:34] universities to do their jobs again. The first is to read his op-ed and then have

[00:10:39] college presidents apply it to their school. I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my

[00:10:44] point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view on big data, go to viewpoints.info

[00:10:52] slash data. That's viewpoints.info slash data. You're listening to Point of View,

[00:11:00] your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Everyone's getting Mark Dance with us and we're talking about this idea of

[00:11:07] pastoral care and I would encourage you to take some of these principles and

[00:11:12] apply them to people in spiritual leadership, not just the senior pastor

[00:11:16] but youth pastors and maybe people that head up various life groups and small

[00:11:21] groups and Bible studies and the rest. He is the director of pastoral wellness

[00:11:25] for Guidestone and the author of the book Start to Finish, The Pastor's Guide

[00:11:30] to Leading a Resilient Life and Ministry. Mark, let's come back. Your doctor

[00:11:36] figures it out but then unbeknownst to you without even telling anybody else a

[00:11:41] counselor comes up to you and says, okay, I've got two issues. Number one, do you

[00:11:45] realize that you are clinically depressed? Number two, are you taking

[00:11:48] anything for it? So that's a great insight there from that individual.

[00:11:52] Yeah, I mean, I went from talking to nobody about it to talking to three

[00:11:56] trusted voices, a doctor, my wife and a licensed therapist and basically added a

[00:12:03] couple of trusted lay people and they became, excuse the pun, dance team to

[00:12:07] help get me healthy again and they did. If anyone listening to this

[00:12:14] suspects that they might have a challenge there or somebody in their

[00:12:18] family, I want God to use my testimony to say first of all you're not hopeless.

[00:12:23] You don't have to stay the way you are. Right. Second of all, please don't

[00:12:27] self-diagnose. I asked my wife, first person I mentioned was Janet and I said

[00:12:32] Janet, do you think I'm clinically depressed? And she thought for a second.

[00:12:35] She said no, probably not. You know, you're leading a church through a

[00:12:42] relocation. We had two teenagers at home. We had, you know, all this going on. It's

[00:12:46] just a busy time. It's just a hard, you know, we have hard seasons. We all do.

[00:12:50] In season, out of season. I said you're probably right. The next day I realized

[00:12:54] she might as well just said, you know, do I have cancer by the way? You know, so

[00:13:00] yeah, that's there are people out there to help us. Well and again, that's kind of

[00:13:04] what you're doing now with pastoral wellness is that when we think of

[00:13:07] Guidestone, we think of providing for widows and individuals that don't have

[00:13:14] the financial resources. We've had OS Hawkins, former president of Guidestone

[00:13:18] here and all the money from the code books goes towards that and you have done

[00:13:23] such an outstanding job of not neglecting those who have served in the

[00:13:27] body of Christ who now find themselves in retirement. And so we certainly

[00:13:31] recognize that you wanted to minister to the financial needs of which there are

[00:13:36] many still and more than you can probably cover. But if you want to add

[00:13:40] to that the emotional and spiritual needs and the drain that takes place in

[00:13:46] ministry, that's really what you're about right now. So talk about how you can

[00:13:50] reach out in that regard. Well thank you for that opportunity. We actually asked

[00:13:54] pastors we did a recent, very recent, last month we got the results from an

[00:14:00] independent study and asked pastors what their greatest obstacles were and they

[00:14:05] said physical wellness, financial wellness, and emotional. So actually the

[00:14:15] order was the above. Yeah, yeah the top one was financial, financial health or

[00:14:19] wellness and hey we got you on that. We have 500 professionals just willing,

[00:14:24] eager to help you with insurance retirement investments, help you you know

[00:14:28] with financial literacy and advocacy and as you said Dr. Hawkins has done a great

[00:14:33] job still as an ambassador for us. And then for those who are in need of

[00:14:40] help in retirement years that qualify at or below the poverty level, that's

[00:14:46] what Mission Dignity is about. In my own book was also I donated the proceeds to

[00:14:52] Mission Dignity. We want to help them earlier. We don't just want to

[00:14:59] help them finish. We want to help them start well. Yeah and that's part of the

[00:15:02] problem is that sometimes what we do is we say we're gonna let you crawl around

[00:15:07] and try to navigate some of these mountain roads but we weren't putting

[00:15:13] guardrails up but we will put a hospital at the base so if you go over the cliff

[00:15:17] then we'll catch you and that's a little too late. Let me just mention one

[00:15:22] article that we did post and we're not going to get into it but it's part of the

[00:15:25] Global Mind Project, Mental Well-Being, Religion, and the Love You Give and part

[00:15:30] of that was I think very striking and that is first of all the need for us to

[00:15:35] show love and also I thought it was kind of interesting for my atheist friends

[00:15:39] they need to read this because they show that the real people that are isolated

[00:15:43] these days are the atheists. They don't have any friends, they don't have any

[00:15:47] neighbors, they don't have an accountability group, they don't have

[00:15:50] people that are encouraging and it seems to me that that should be what the

[00:15:54] church is but sometimes let's come back to pastors the pastor says you know I

[00:16:00] can do it on my own and sometimes you teach and I think we should never teach

[00:16:05] this in seminary you got to be careful if you're going to be a pastor don't play

[00:16:09] favorites so sometimes the pastor stands up in front of the congregation but

[00:16:13] doesn't have a close friend. Yes. And that I think is dangerous as well for

[00:16:17] pastors isn't it? Absolutely it's one of the biggest landmines to emotional

[00:16:23] health is isolation. It's a challenge that first of all when I became a pastor

[00:16:30] in the late 80s I was told don't make friends with church members that was

[00:16:34] just the standard. That is the standard I remember those days. Yes and I

[00:16:38] was confused by it and confused enough to look it up and couldn't find it

[00:16:43] anywhere in the Bible and you know it's like okay this is a family but you're

[00:16:48] here to lead it not be part of it and it's even more confusing for a pastor's

[00:16:52] wife because you know it's hard enough to make friends but if you if you make

[00:16:59] artificial obstacles out there to make it even harder then pastors they deal

[00:17:03] even with people all around and they can be very isolated and very lonely so

[00:17:08] thank you for calling that out. So again if people actually take advantage of

[00:17:14] what you have there at Guidestone or maybe want to read your book let's work

[00:17:19] our way through that because in your own experience you seem like you're doing

[00:17:23] just fine so how did you get out of that? We met you at the point of need now

[00:17:29] what's the next step because if we want to help a pastor or maybe one of our

[00:17:33] listeners is in that situation right now because of whatever circumstance how do

[00:17:39] we get out of those and what resources are available? Yes so there are more than

[00:17:43] ever that's one of the one of the great things about all of the access that we

[00:17:50] have to resources online there are some challenges online there's some benefits

[00:17:55] right yes is that for example at Guidestone we have a dedicated page has

[00:18:01] several resources including my video small short video my testimony but it's

[00:18:06] just Guidestone.org slash mental health and also has some of the the networks

[00:18:13] out there there are many to choose from that have Christian counseling options

[00:18:18] and you know but at the end of the day you're gonna have to do some homework to

[00:18:23] find out if their faith aligned or not because some are and some aren't and

[00:18:28] some are kind of in the middle right but the there are also people who will help

[00:18:38] you if you're honest with them about not only mental health but physical health

[00:18:42] and spiritual health we all know this but we there's nobody's a completely

[00:18:50] hurt we're not talking about perfectionism are we we're talking about

[00:18:54] that's not possible and so what if there's a pastor listening I want you to

[00:19:01] hear this that you're not called to be proficient in other people's

[00:19:05] professions that you don't have to be an expert in finances you have to be an

[00:19:08] expert in physical health or mental health or anything the only thing

[00:19:15] really standing between you and help is your pride which can be big you know

[00:19:21] and maybe not even private just other concern of how that would affect the

[00:19:24] rest of the congregation or something like that well that's right yeah the

[00:19:27] testimony it might have to the church when people know that the pastor is

[00:19:30] getting counseling well you know I was afraid to tell my church to be honest

[00:19:34] I wasn't afraid of getting fired I was afraid of getting pity because according

[00:19:40] to scripture everyone with a wild chromosome that's our number one need

[00:19:44] is respect yeah I was I was afraid that that there'd be little old ladies would

[00:19:48] pat me on the hand and ask me every week are you okay you know and I didn't want

[00:19:53] that yeah but the fact is the exact opposite happened a level of intimacy for

[00:19:59] the next several years as we we we finished the relocation we we really got

[00:20:06] healthy again as as a church and I got healthier as a person an enemy an

[00:20:14] intimacy happened there that came with vulnerability and if if someone's afraid

[00:20:20] of asking for help I could see that there's some embarrassment it might even

[00:20:24] be some risk but I think it's worth it don't you I do let's take a break and

[00:20:29] let me open up the phones I suspect some of you might want to ask a question

[00:20:33] or share a testimony perhaps you are a pastor that has gone through the valley

[00:20:38] of despair or difficulty or depression I'd love to hear from you 800-351-1212

[00:20:44] perhaps you are wondering what you can do to encourage your pastor and let me

[00:20:51] encourage you during the break we have a link we're going to try to put up here

[00:20:54] guidestone.org slash mental health and there first of all is this wonderful

[00:21:00] testimony we can watch mark it's about three minutes long so you could actually

[00:21:04] watch it during the break then you can scroll down and you can begin to then

[00:21:08] see the various networks there's Association of certified biblical

[00:21:13] counselors there's focus on the family's Christian counselors network there's a

[00:21:18] Christian Association for psychological studies so some great resources and you

[00:21:23] might want to check those out during the break as well as your book we'll

[00:21:27] take a break come back with more right after this

[00:21:30] where does moral truth come from according to 58% of Americans

[00:21:36] individuals determine moral truth a quarter of generation Z says society

[00:21:41] determines moral truth and morality can even change over time only 42% of

[00:21:47] Americans believe that truth comes from God I don't know about you but I find

[00:21:52] these numbers extremely troubling it really is a crisis of truth and that

[00:21:57] crisis has consequences look at society evil is called good good called evil

[00:22:02] people with biblical beliefs are called bigots or worse they're canceled but

[00:22:08] there is hope the Bible promises the truth will set us free and that's why

[00:22:13] point of view is relentless in our commitment to the ultimate source of

[00:22:17] moral truth God's Word at point of view we know that God's truth is eternal and

[00:22:23] if we stand together we can help more Americans apply his truth in their

[00:22:28] daily life help Americans find truth again by giving at point of view dotnet

[00:22:34] or call 1-800-347-5151 that's point of view dotnet and 800-347-5151

[00:22:45] point of view will continue after this you are listening to point of view

[00:23:01] the opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of

[00:23:07] the management or staff of the station and now here again is Kirby Anderson

[00:23:13] final half hour in studio with us today Mark Nansen if you would like to join

[00:23:16] the conversation let's open up the phones that numbers 1-800-351-1212

[00:23:22] 1-800-351-1212 perhaps you'd like to share a testimony maybe you've been

[00:23:27] through something yourself maybe your church has maybe just like to ask a

[00:23:30] question about what you can do to be an encouragement to your pastor he is the

[00:23:35] director of pastoral wellness at Guidestone let me again encourage you to

[00:23:38] check out a few places to go first of all Guidestone dot org slash mental

[00:23:44] health just a minute mark I want to have you talk about what is available

[00:23:49] there if you were looking for a book it came out a year a little less than a

[00:23:54] year ago start to finish the pastor's guide to leading a resilient life and

[00:24:00] ministry and it is a resource that is available that actually probably will

[00:24:06] get you into some of this as a matter of fact one of the things that is endorsing

[00:24:10] it is Shane Pruitt in which he says I can't think of a more relevant topic

[00:24:15] for today than helping leaders have a healthy life and ministry of course

[00:24:19] we've had Shane Pruitt on the program so many times before and the book came out

[00:24:24] with B&H books and it's about a hundred and ninety two pages and very readable

[00:24:28] so let me encourage you to get that information as well and I might just

[00:24:32] mention the program note Thursday is our millennial roundtable Shane won't be

[00:24:36] part of that but some of the other individuals you know Chelsea Liberty and

[00:24:40] others will be on the program on Thursday but let's get to the website

[00:24:44] Guidestone dot org slash mental health first of all people can watch the video

[00:24:51] which is about three minutes long pretty easy but you have a whole section on

[00:24:55] what to do when depression and ministry overlap you say 22% of pastors are at

[00:25:01] risk for burnout or depression almost a quarter of pastors in the country and

[00:25:07] this is something is illustrate why we have you in today to talk about it so

[00:25:12] give us some background on how crucial this is and what resources are available

[00:25:19] so that we can minister to pastors in our congregation yeah so we we are we're

[00:25:25] not mental health professionals that guys know financial professionals but in a

[00:25:29] comp in an attempt to to encourage pastors into comprehensive health as the

[00:25:36] opposed to compartmentalizing it right yes the the Bible is very comprehensive

[00:25:41] in in all of those but again using using the resources in your community find in

[00:25:52] because of kovat there's some kovat lemonade that came out of that terrible

[00:25:57] pandemic but one of those is online therapy online counseling is more

[00:26:02] available more pro prevalent than ever taking taking away some of the the

[00:26:08] difficulty or at least one of the excuses for not getting help yes so that's

[00:26:13] there are take mine everything else yeah yeah exactly sure especially for public

[00:26:19] figures like pastors and I you know again as I said earlier don't self-diagnose

[00:26:24] but let somebody just start with your general doctor so hey I've got some

[00:26:30] challenges I'm not sleeping well I'm not eating well or whatever it is the

[00:26:33] dark thoughts and there's no this to that my my depression may not look like

[00:26:38] yours if you happen to be one of those one out of four somebody in your family

[00:26:41] I had I've had people on my staff with various kinds chronic depression or

[00:26:48] bipolar way more serious and complicated than oh yeah yes and so the key is let

[00:26:56] people help you right and God still wants to be one of the voices in there

[00:27:01] but we're pointing people to others not pointing people to us if that makes

[00:27:05] sense sure well and that brings up another point and that is the duty to

[00:27:09] refer it does seem to me one of things I've tried in a few times I've taught it

[00:27:14] a doctoral ministry classes is that look you are not a health professional you're

[00:27:19] not a mental health professional you're really not even a financial expert so

[00:27:24] whenever you find yourself in a pastoral counseling setting and

[00:27:29] somebody's asking a question about a variety of issues it could be an ethical

[00:27:34] issue it could be an issue of mental health could be even a financial issue

[00:27:38] you need to have some people around you that you can point to a health care

[00:27:44] professional a financial expert whatever it might be and that's why I think what

[00:27:49] you have provided here are all sorts of ideas of different Christian counseling

[00:27:56] networks because so many times I have somebody say well can you recommend a

[00:28:00] good Christian counselor I said well I might be able to in matter of fact in

[00:28:04] the past I have but the good news we have these incredible networks that

[00:28:09] already exist so that you can find one of those individuals likewise we've had

[00:28:15] Chuck Bentley on here talking about financial issues and again we can say

[00:28:19] that crown financial and Guidestone and others can provide those so you don't

[00:28:24] have to be an expert on all these issues but you do need to know when

[00:28:28] you're sort of out of your comfort zone and maybe out of your expertise is that

[00:28:32] fair it is I tell pastors you're not expected to be the most proficient

[00:28:38] person in your church financially there's no chance you're going to be the

[00:28:41] most proficient person but you if you're the pastor you are the most

[00:28:45] responsible person yes so you can't say well can't bear your head and go it

[00:28:49] doesn't matter about giving or stewardship or same at home you're

[00:28:53] probably not even most proficient person at home when it comes to finances you

[00:28:57] know it's probably your wife or somebody but again you are the most responsible

[00:29:02] it'd be the same with with spiritual health or mental health is that if you

[00:29:08] have a challenge then take responsibility and ownership and do

[00:29:11] something about it rather than pretending it'll it's either not there

[00:29:17] or that'll go away by itself because God's obviously has it has the power to

[00:29:24] heal anybody of anything instantly but part of his design is to use the

[00:29:30] interdependent body of Christ to help each other to strengthen its various

[00:29:36] parts and so letting people help us is not it's not intuitive okay it's like it

[00:29:41] won't be intuitive if that oxygen mask ever drops down that airplane I have

[00:29:46] heard the speech of million times I'll hear it again this week but the oxygen

[00:29:51] mask on yourself first you won't do anybody any good passed out on that

[00:29:56] plane is the is the point in the same you won't do anybody any good in your

[00:30:00] church if you're passed out and that's where I was I was pretty much not

[00:30:05] ministering an optimal level because I had not practiced self-care mm-hmm and

[00:30:10] self-care is not selfish it's strategic Paul tells Timothy two times one in

[00:30:15] person in Acts 21 and one in the in this follow-up letter first Timothy 416 pay

[00:30:21] attention to your life both times he starts with life in Acts 21 he says pay

[00:30:27] attention to your life and your flock and in first Timothy 4 he says pay

[00:30:32] attention to your life and your teaching mm-hmm we learned a lot in schools about

[00:30:38] the paying attention to our doctrine or teaching or paying attention to our

[00:30:41] flock but we don't hear a lot unless we're listening to this radio station

[00:30:45] and some other avenues about paying attention to our life and that that's

[00:30:49] the soul care self-care that we are trying to encourage a guidestone because

[00:30:55] we care about how they they start and and how they finish and we want to help

[00:31:00] cheer them on in practical ways I know the first time I heard somebody talking

[00:31:04] about soul care I thought is that biblical you know and again what you're

[00:31:08] trying to help us understand yeah and again we've taught some real errors

[00:31:12] inside seminary that is you need to focus on your flock you need to focus on

[00:31:17] your teaching if you can properly execute the word you'll be successful

[00:31:21] and fail to recognize all the other aspects of pastoral ministry that need

[00:31:25] to take place so that's just one of those myths that we've perpetuated and

[00:31:30] that the congregation perpetuates by saying well here the pastor is above

[00:31:35] contradiction he is certainly a godly individual so he doesn't have any needs

[00:31:39] like I have right and that's I think something that pastors need to get over

[00:31:43] they need to get over themselves pretty quickly don't they I think you're right

[00:31:46] I mean I've I've been that guy who confused denying myself with neglecting

[00:31:53] myself that's a yeah theologically that just doesn't mix there's a stewardship

[00:31:59] twice it says in first Timothy 3 to manage our lives manage our homes so

[00:32:04] that's an ownership soul care and self-care are the same thing that word is

[00:32:09] the same Greek word and it's you pay attention to your life to the one life

[00:32:16] you get again we're not talking about perfectionism but we are talking about

[00:32:22] stewarding and when it says that the second time in first Timothy 416 if I

[00:32:27] just put the whole thing pay close attention to your life and your teaching

[00:32:32] persevering these things we're doing this you save not only yourself but also

[00:32:37] your hearers this isn't selfish where you're just trying to take care of

[00:32:41] yourself but if you want to take care of the people around you your hearers

[00:32:45] then that means you're going to have to take care of yourself first yes well

[00:32:49] and of course last hour we spent some time talking about some and of course

[00:32:53] over the last couple weeks we've been talking about individuals last week or

[00:32:57] Constantine Campbell and others these are individuals that because they were

[00:33:02] not dealing with some important issues did not have accountability led to some

[00:33:08] incredible scandals that we have heard about as well so I'm gonna take a break

[00:33:12] and we come back I thought I'd just ask you a couple other thoughts of what

[00:33:15] you've learned in terms of boundaries and limits because maybe we can learn

[00:33:19] vicariously from you given the fact that you were doing a location from one

[00:33:24] venue to another are there some things that could have been done differently

[00:33:29] people you could have delegated to and can we maybe learn some vicarious

[00:33:33] lessons from you and then we'll wind down for the day but if you find

[00:33:36] yourself saying we need to cover this in our own church you can perhaps send this

[00:33:41] podcast on to others you can certainly find a lot of that material at point of

[00:33:46] view dotnet be right back you're listening to point of view your

[00:33:58] listener supported source for truth for a few more minutes we'd like to join us

[00:34:02] 1-800-351-1212 mark dance with us as we talk with him as the director of

[00:34:08] pastoral wellness might just mention his book one more time start to finish the

[00:34:12] pastor's guide to leading a resilient life in ministry and as I mentioned just

[00:34:17] a minute ago you can go to the website point of view net the very top action

[00:34:22] there's talks about the fact that we do make available to you if you would like

[00:34:26] to be able to obtain that the podcast so that you can click on that button that

[00:34:31] says watch or listen and you can then send that to someone else including a

[00:34:36] pastor that might find themselves in the midst of some of the things that mark

[00:34:40] has been addressing so let's if we can learn maybe vicariously from you in the

[00:34:45] midst of a change in locations a change of venue all sorts of things that are

[00:34:50] requiring a tremendous amount of your time and energy if you had to do it all

[00:34:54] over again can we learn some lessons in terms of boundaries and delegation that

[00:34:58] could have happened

[00:35:00] yeah the simplest takeaway is don't ignore the fourth commandment

[00:35:06] honestly that was my my season my three-year season of clinical depression

[00:35:14] was avoidable this was me being a bad steward of my time I was playing the god

[00:35:21] card to fulfill a myth that was unhealthy and unsustainable this 24-7

[00:35:28] myth we are not available 24-7 unless we're willing to openly disobey a cease

[00:35:35] and desist order and so the gift the Sabbath is a command is also a gift

[00:35:41] is right Isaiah causes delight and some pastors think that's for everybody else

[00:35:46] and it's not we need just mean stop right into everybody here probably

[00:35:52] struggles with a work-life balance and that means work work hard you don't work

[00:35:56] you don't eat Paul said but stop

[00:35:59] yeah that's the rhythm that God created us to live and that that's the one

[00:36:03] takeaway that's free and it's right there in open scripture

[00:36:07] well again we talked the other day just to with Bruce Miller again we did the

[00:36:11] book on rhythm years ago we just did it again because I thought what is happening

[00:36:16] in many cases markets were disconnected from God's creation because why is it

[00:36:21] that we have a 24-hour day well that's the rotation of the earth you know why

[00:36:26] is it that we have the idea of seasons well that's the circulation around the

[00:36:32] sun because of the tilt why do we have a 365 day year that's a current the

[00:36:39] orbit around the Sun you of course you even have the monthly ideas the lunar

[00:36:45] one the only one that is inserted is six days of work in a seventh day rest but

[00:36:50] every one of the other if you will rhythms is tied to our situation to our

[00:36:57] cosmos to the creation itself and yet because we have electric lights because

[00:37:04] we have the Internet because we have stores open 24-7 pastors have somehow

[00:37:10] convinced themselves that they don't have to work with the rhythms of nature

[00:37:15] and they pay a very heavy price for it don't think yeah we do we do and again

[00:37:22] the good news is this is preventable

[00:37:24] discipline some healthy fear of God you know the Sabbath was originally

[00:37:31] reinforced by the death penalty

[00:37:34] ok so that's off the table but it is you know and ultimately fulfilled in Jesus

[00:37:41] but Jesus would practice the Sabbath he was criticized six different times for

[00:37:45] what they thought the legalists thought he was doing it wrong but he was doing it

[00:37:49] right and and so it's not time out it's a time to recharge and receive now

[00:37:57] how you do it and when you do it might be optional but you know I came into

[00:38:02] your studio Kirby and first thing I did is I went I turn my phone in airplane

[00:38:06] mode that's pretty simple people cannot message me call me or anything during

[00:38:10] this interview there's no interruptions I do the very same thing when I said I

[00:38:14] do the same thing when when I said Linda my home balance and I check out of work

[00:38:20] by turning off devices and that sounds like panic button for pastor sometimes

[00:38:27] but if you're on vacation or at night or even on your Sabbath and there's a real

[00:38:32] emergency and give the people that need to know your wife's cell phone number

[00:38:36] and they'll think three or four times before they call it but they'll also

[00:38:39] church members aren't really great at discerning what an emergency is there's

[00:38:45] a look there's another hack right there that could help I think you got some

[00:38:48] really good ideas here one last time let's talk about what's available at

[00:38:51] Guidestone first of all the financial resources whenever we've had dr. OS

[00:38:56] Hawkins here it has been amazing to me and it has been encouraging to me that

[00:39:02] the decisions that you make financially about not in investing in what we might

[00:39:07] call sinful activities are certainly ones that you might wonder what would

[00:39:14] that necessarily affect the financial resources of Guidestone and you over the

[00:39:20] years have continually won awards because you've actually followed

[00:39:25] biblical principles about investing and stayed away from some of the investments

[00:39:29] that unfortunately in other people's IRAs or 401ks actually investing in

[00:39:35] yes thank you for mentioning that because it's very important to us both

[00:39:39] for investments and and insurance to only use faith-aligned funds yes you can

[00:39:46] compete mm-hmm with that because there are two things one they don't want to

[00:39:50] give up their you know convictions but they also don't want to you know give up

[00:39:54] their money yeah so we need to manage their money well and we manage about 20

[00:39:58] billion dollars but the the fact is for over a hundred years and under

[00:40:03] leadership dr. Hawkins now dr. Dillbeck is that is that that's important for us

[00:40:09] to to not invest in in in minister or in businesses that are contrary to what we

[00:40:17] believe right and so thank you for mentioning that God has blessed that I

[00:40:21] think so and again the gifts that go to ministry dignity from OS Hawkins yes

[00:40:28] code books and your book as well start to finish go there and again I think

[00:40:33] it's a wonderful ministry because I've heard some individuals and I know other

[00:40:38] people in your office that have worked with ministry dignity actually have said

[00:40:43] that there are people that actually could have dinner and so they're

[00:40:47] struggling so much financially you're really ministering to those individuals

[00:40:51] well and you know what we're we we love doing it it's why Godstone actually

[00:40:57] started over a hundred years ago to help pastors coming back from war one and you

[00:41:03] know Godstone the website you mentioned there's two places one one is mission

[00:41:09] dignity need go this up it'll populate up but also ministerial resources for

[00:41:15] the pastors that'll help with some of the financial literacy and advocacy

[00:41:19] tools little three four minute videos to talk about answer questions about how

[00:41:25] to compensation salary or why did not have that as those security or where's a

[00:41:30] bunch of practical things on their mission dignity is not just looking for

[00:41:34] people to give to these pastors through that ministry and their widows like

[00:41:39] twenty-eight hundred last year but also we're looking for widows in ministers

[00:41:44] that qualify to give them so if you know somebody listen this knows a pastor who

[00:41:49] served in Southern Baptist Church for at least ten years it might need some help

[00:41:53] for practical things not that hard to get them on there but you can go to that

[00:41:57] website and recommend someone one last time guide stone dot org and then

[00:42:02] specifically were pointing you today to guide stone dot org slash mental health

[00:42:07] and again if you go there you can watch this a three-minute video of mark

[00:42:12] actually sharing his own testimony and of course if you'd like to contact him or

[00:42:16] find out more about the guide stone it's all available at the website at

[00:42:19] point of view dotnet mark thanks for coming in studio today I enjoyed myself

[00:42:23] thank you for about first time I had a chance to meet you and I think what

[00:42:27] you're doing is outstanding so again find out more about what is available

[00:42:30] there I might just mention that we have information about the book by Amy Bird

[00:42:35] also of course we have the information about mark dance my commentary today is

[00:42:39] about the president of the University of Florida Ben sass who actually says the

[00:42:44] adults are still in charge and we need to hear that in the midst of the chaos on

[00:42:49] campus as you might imagine we have a lot to talk about in that regard so we

[00:42:54] will do that tomorrow and all through the week will be covering some of the

[00:42:57] issues in the news but most importantly want to thank Megan for help engineering

[00:43:01] the program Steve thank you for producing the program and we will see

[00:43:04] you back here tomorrow right here on point of view it almost seems like we

[00:43:12] live in a different world from many people in positions of authority they

[00:43:17] say men can be women and women men people are prosecuted differently or not

[00:43:22] at all depending on their politics criminals are more valued and rewarded

[00:43:27] than law-abiding citizens it's overwhelming so demoralizing you feel

[00:43:33] like giving up but we can't we shouldn't we must not as Winston Churchill said to

[00:43:40] Britain in the darkest days of World War two never give in never give in never

[00:43:45] never never never yield to force never yield to the apparently overwhelming

[00:43:51] might of the enemy and that's what we say to you today this is not a time to

[00:43:57] give in but to step up and join point of view in providing clarity in the chaos

[00:44:03] we can't do it alone but together with God's help we will overcome the darkness

[00:44:09] invest in biblical clarity today at point of view dotnet or call 1-800-347-5151

[00:44:17] point of view dotnet and 800-347-5151

[00:44:24] point of view is produced by point of view ministries