Point of View May 14, 2024 – Hour 2 : Jesus v. Evangelicals

[00:00:00] This is a book, Jesus vs. Evangelicals, been out for quite some time, so if you have any

[00:00:26] difficulty finding it we have a link to it on our website.

[00:00:30] A biblical critique of a wayward movement.

[00:00:33] Constantine Scammell is an individual that is joining us, has his doctorate and is a professor

[00:00:38] and associate research director at the Sydney College of Divinity, former professor of New

[00:00:44] Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois, senior lecturer in New

[00:00:48] Testament at Moore Theological College in Sydney, author of several books on the New

[00:00:54] Testament, ancient Greek including Paul and Union with Christ and Paul and the Hope of

[00:01:00] Glory.

[00:01:01] The individual lives in Australia but also plays the saxophone as I understand.

[00:01:06] Constantine, thank you for being with us today.

[00:01:08] Oh it's a pleasure, thanks for having me.

[00:01:12] I might just mention that since you certainly are introduced in some of our material as

[00:01:18] a jazz saxophonist, we have another one around here including my daughter by the way who

[00:01:23] was in jazz studies and had a cat named Ellington so you can kind of get a sense of where that

[00:01:28] was going to go.

[00:01:29] So anyway, let's if we can introduce you to The Conversation because this is a book that

[00:01:36] has been out for some time, nine different chapters.

[00:01:40] One raising very serious questions about the evangelical world and you begin in the

[00:01:45] book by talking about yourself so let's get to know you for just a minute if we might.

[00:01:49] Sure, of course.

[00:01:50] What do you want to know?

[00:01:53] Well, for an individual that has a musical background and then has been a professor and

[00:01:59] writes on everything from study of Greek and all that, this one's a little different

[00:02:04] because you're talking about kind of the sociology if you will as well as a theology

[00:02:10] of the evangelical movement so how did that come about?

[00:02:13] That's true, yeah it's a very good point.

[00:02:17] It's a little bit out of my normal wheelhouse but it came about really from living in the

[00:02:24] US for five and a half years while I was teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in

[00:02:31] the Chicago area and when you're living in Australia, you sort of have an impression

[00:02:38] of the church in America through secular media and also the books you read and maybe the

[00:02:45] podcasts you listen to and that sort of thing but living in a place gives you a much more

[00:02:55] accurate perspective of what the culture is like and that sort of thing, attending church

[00:03:00] and preaching in various locations and teaching students and that sort of thing and seeing

[00:03:05] an internal view of what's really going on both politically but also in church life and

[00:03:16] in society in general so I felt that living in the US certainly didn't make me an expert

[00:03:23] by any means but as an outsider it gave me a better perspective of what life is like

[00:03:34] here in the States.

[00:03:34] I'm actually in the States right now visiting just for a week or so so yeah, so that's kind

[00:03:43] of where it came from and my own sort of struggles I suppose, again as an outsider you can maybe

[00:03:57] see things that those on the inside have trouble seeing what I call in the book blind spots

[00:04:04] and we all have them, you know, I have them and other Australians, you know, the Australian

[00:04:09] church has blind spots and by definition I need someone else to tell me what those

[00:04:14] are and so, you know, I felt like as an Australian Christian coming into the American scene I

[00:04:23] could sort of help to identify, you know, here are some things that, you know, are worth

[00:04:30] thinking about like and what direction should the church be going in and what sort of role

[00:04:37] should the church be playing in American society.

[00:04:41] So that's kind of where, you know, it originated from, you know, my experience of living in

[00:04:49] America as a Christian as an Australian.

[00:04:52] One of the people you quote is Russ Dutat and we quoted him last hour because of the

[00:04:55] New York Times piece is, is there a post-religious right because he had said that back in 2016

[00:05:02] and then quotes a man by the name of Matthew Schmitz who is saying really actually what

[00:05:07] ended up is not so much post-religious as the fact that now in this particular election

[00:05:14] season if you look at the increase in Hispanic support, African American support, Asian

[00:05:20] support has gone up dramatically but at the same time also Russ spent some time saying

[00:05:27] I do find that there are a number of people that have supported Donald Trump that wouldn't

[00:05:33] be considered religious at all whether it's Barstool Sports, Dave Portnoy or Jordan Peterson

[00:05:40] or Joe Rogan but you begin your book by talking about Trump and I thought since we were going

[00:05:45] to be getting into that we would focus some time and attention on it but you're quoting

[00:05:50] some individuals we've had on the program whether it's Thomas Kidd, John Fee and others

[00:05:56] that were very uncritical of Donald Trump in 2016, tried to sort of make their peace

[00:06:04] with him this time and surprisingly a lot of people that wouldn't have been religious

[00:06:09] supporters of Donald Trump maybe look like they're going to vote for him this time in

[00:06:13] the next six months.

[00:06:15] Your thoughts?

[00:06:16] Well you know it's a complex question isn't it because there are so many variables and

[00:06:25] so many factors and reasons for people to vote the way they choose to vote and I certainly

[00:06:33] I don't think I have any place to tell people how they should vote but my question to Christians

[00:06:41] is what is behind the support of Donald Trump and from the ones I've spoken to it's policy

[00:06:52] and I can understand that you know if a candidate is going to support policies you care about

[00:06:58] then you know of course that makes some sense but the evangelical movement lambasted Clinton

[00:07:08] during his administration for his extramarital affairs and made the point that character

[00:07:15] character matters in our leadership and you know not to be sort of overly harsh I suppose or

[00:07:24] judgmental but the character question seems to have completely disappeared when it comes

[00:07:31] to support of Donald Trump and you know it's really not debatable but here is a man of

[00:07:37] some I would say pretty dubious character in a number of ways and so while I understand the

[00:07:45] importance of policy and the desire to see certain policies enacted or affirmed

[00:07:53] at what expense does that come and when you have leadership with a lack of moral

[00:08:01] character and in fact you know I would go so far as to say setting a very poor example

[00:08:13] for the culture at large and you know for children growing up and seeing adults behave this way in

[00:08:21] the public square is you know potentially a huge going to come at a huge cost for I think for

[00:08:32] American culture and the other issue I think I want to question for Christians is you know

[00:08:42] let me crack shell after the break here we're talking with Constantine Campbell

[00:08:46] continue with him right after this this is viewpoints with Kirby Anderson

[00:09:02] the federal government has a spending problem that is best illustrated by the fact that the

[00:09:06] deficit this fiscal year will be two trillion dollars the accumulated national debt from

[00:09:11] George Washington to President Reagan was one trillion dollars this year we will accumulate

[00:09:15] twice as much debt in one year as was accumulated in the first 200 years of this country Stephen

[00:09:21] reminds us that Congress just passed a bipartisan agreement to spend an additional 95 billion

[00:09:27] dollars on foreign aid not one penny of that was paid for by offsetting spending cuts he has four

[00:09:32] ideas on how to shrink the budget the first suggestion is presidential impoundment authority

[00:09:39] just because Congress authorizes spending doesn't mean that the president always must spend it

[00:09:43] the president just like a CEO should have the power to suspend spending on programs presidents

[00:09:49] from Thomas Jefferson to Abraham Lincoln to Franklin Delano Roosevelt have used that authority

[00:09:54] he also mentions Richard Nixon but he was prevented from doing this effectively because

[00:09:59] the Supreme Court ruled against him that will probably have to be revisited the second suggestion

[00:10:04] is to require a super majority vote to raise taxes it is unlikely that Congress will ever pass a

[00:10:10] balanced budget amendment but it might pass a law requiring bipartisan support for raising taxes

[00:10:16] the current president wants to increase taxes without any spending cuts currently we don't have

[00:10:21] a revenue problem we have a spending problem by the way raising more taxes to balance the budget

[00:10:27] never has worked once more revenue comes to the government politicians find more ways to spend it

[00:10:33] tomorrow we'll look at two more ways to shrink the federal budget we need to do something to

[00:10:38] bring fiscal sanity to our government I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view

[00:10:43] for a free copy of Kirby's booklet A Biblical View on Socialism go to viewpoints.info

[00:10:52] slash socialism that's viewpoints.info slash socialism you're listening to Point of View

[00:11:01] your listener-supported source for truth continue your conversation today with Dr. Constantine

[00:11:06] Campbell as we talk about a biblical critique of a wayward movement Jesus first evangelicals

[00:11:12] and you know Constantine I was just thinking eight years ago sitting in the chair across from me was

[00:11:17] Max Lucado saying the same kind of things you were saying and that is I have daughters and do I want

[00:11:23] to even support an individual who has treated women the way they have before you were on the air

[00:11:29] I'm quoted from one survey that suggests that if indeed Donald Trump is a convicted felon and

[00:11:35] that's a possibility out of this trial right now going on in New York could cost him up to nine

[00:11:40] percent so I mean you're raising some questions of course there are people raising questions about

[00:11:45] policy as you said as well I remember Joel Rosenberg sharing with us as well that he

[00:11:51] actually two days before the election finally was convinced by his wife to vote for Donald Trump and

[00:11:57] even later when he was in the Oval Office shared that with the former president so whether you look

[00:12:02] at character or policy there's been a little bit of hesitancy on the part of I'd say a lot of our

[00:12:08] listeners here and things that we've talked about and even before you joined us today have talked

[00:12:12] about yeah I think that's right Kirby and you know in some ways like I was you know watching

[00:12:21] from afar with the primaries and so on and I just thought here's an opportunity for Christians who

[00:12:29] want to vote Republican who have you know the policies in mind that they want to support

[00:12:34] to choose another leader you know someone no leader is perfect everyone we're all flawed

[00:12:41] human beings in various ways but someone that our children can look up to someone who can

[00:12:48] lead because leadership is not just about pushing policy through and you know making

[00:12:55] various executive decisions leadership is so much more than that potentially and you know

[00:13:03] can't we find a leader who can you know support the policies that Christians might like but also

[00:13:12] you know help to shape culture in a positive direction you know I'm a big Abraham Lincoln fan

[00:13:19] and I've read several biographies about him and just even today what an example in my view

[00:13:28] what an example of character and you might not agree with every decision that he made and

[00:13:35] some people you know in the south might still be a bit cranky about Lincoln but

[00:13:40] you know but I'm sort of challenged by myself like here's a model of leadership that

[00:13:50] listens to alternate points of view who demonstrates humility and charity and mercy

[00:13:56] and grace who's very careful with what he says the words he uses and the way he treats other

[00:14:03] people so you know I'm like is another case that we can't find leaders who can do all those things

[00:14:11] it is said again I'm going to move past God and Country because that's a wonderful chapter as

[00:14:16] well as some others but there's some sections about judgment tribalism of course the issue

[00:14:21] of divorce and the rest but Constantine one of the things I was thinking about is a lot of your

[00:14:27] book is talking about the what but the why I think gets back to a conversation we've had with George

[00:14:33] Barna many times I even thought I should have had George Barna on the first hour and you on the

[00:14:37] second hour because he could talk about the fact that even though you have two-thirds of parents

[00:14:41] claiming to be Christian only four percent of them have a biblical worldview and most of the

[00:14:48] individuals that even are identified as evangelicals and I'll leave it to you and

[00:14:53] Thomas kid to figure out what an evangelical is but I think we have a pretty good idea found that

[00:14:58] very few of them have a biblical worldview and most have a syncretistic worldview and you're

[00:15:04] saying well okay then we should do a better job of teaching them but then George Barna really brings

[00:15:10] the hammer down says only four out of ten senior pastors have a biblical worldview only about 12

[00:15:19] percent of youth pastors have a biblical worldview and so our biggest problem when I get into your

[00:15:24] other chapters on judgment and tribalism and the rest is we unfortunately just have a lot of people

[00:15:31] that maybe are saved in their heart but they're not thinking biblically in their head would you

[00:15:35] agree I would agree and this is a problem not unique to America of course but there's there is

[00:15:46] a mismatch between popular perceptions of what Christianity is and what Chris and what the Bible

[00:15:52] teaches and the reality of what the Bible teaches and what Christianity ought to be and that miss

[00:16:00] this that misalignment exists in the church as much as it exists maybe not as much but

[00:16:06] it exists as well as outside the church and yeah of course it is incumbent among church leaders

[00:16:16] on our church leaders to you know to be deeply informed with what the Bible actually teaches

[00:16:25] and how it applies to our lives today and that you know sort of have a responsibility to help

[00:16:32] regular folk their congregations to to understand the teachings of scripture and that's not a simple

[00:16:42] task and it does require proper preparation and training I was involved in training pastors at

[00:16:47] Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and I've been involved in theological education for many years

[00:16:52] now and it's alarming to see those statistics that the number of senior pastors do not have

[00:16:59] formal theological qualifications and it's not about it's not about the qualification you know

[00:17:04] it's not about having a degree from this seminary or that university it's about the having the

[00:17:10] skills and the training and the knowledge and unfortunately many of the most prominent churches

[00:17:17] the mega churches for example seem incredibly successful on a worldly scale because we judge

[00:17:27] it by numbers and by money and by the size of your arena or whatever and not on you know how faithful

[00:17:35] is this teaching to the teaching of scripture and so because those sort of leaders are elevated

[00:17:42] than others you know young young would-be pastors in the making look at them and say well this guy

[00:17:49] doesn't have a theological education why do I you know I'm just going to rely on my rhetorical skill

[00:17:54] and and hope that the spirit uses it and you know and we'll get a big church one day you know and

[00:18:00] and unfortunately that just perpetuates the cycle. I think it does let me talk about humility

[00:18:06] and judgment because chapter three first of all you talk about Rosaria Butterfield we've had her on

[00:18:11] the program with her books and think very high liver but again you point out that she was a

[00:18:16] very leftist professor at Syracuse criticized promise keepers received a lot of hate mail

[00:18:22] and if you don't think hate mail comes in I can show you some of mine but you have a pastor

[00:18:27] that instead was very respectful and very kind and as a result of course we know the rest of

[00:18:33] the story and that is she's been on the program with us before and I think we certainly have a

[00:18:40] judgmental attitude sometimes in the culture and you talk about the fact that we should have good

[00:18:47] judgment and discernment so we don't want to take Matthew 7 1 out of context judge not that you not

[00:18:53] be judged but at the same time we don't want to have a judgmental attitude because of course Jesus

[00:18:59] talks about that in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 doesn't he yeah that's absolutely right Kirby and

[00:19:06] I think the one of the frustrating things about judgmentalism for me is that we it fails to

[00:19:16] acknowledge that we are all fallen we're all flawed and broken in different ways in various ways

[00:19:23] but you know evangelical culture might choose certain flaws or certain you know acts of rebellion

[00:19:32] against God to demonize particularly and sort of use as a kind of tribal you know disqualifier

[00:19:42] if you like and therefore feel vindicated to treat people like that as the enemy

[00:19:53] and that's just completely countered I feel to the sort of whole message of the Bible and

[00:20:01] especially focused in the teaching of Jesus because it ignores the fact that you know there

[00:20:07] are all these kinds of sinful attitudes and practices that we all have but some of them are

[00:20:13] just kind of excused inexcusable or they're so commonplace that we we just ignore them

[00:20:20] but in God's view you know they're as bad or worse than the things that we tend to judge so

[00:20:29] this is just one of the many reasons why we need to avoid a judgmental attitude towards others

[00:20:35] who see the world differently and they're pursuing a good life they want to live a good life

[00:20:42] you know they want to they're pursuing all the same things that we are but you know looking

[00:20:47] in different places but we can't judge them for that just because you know it's

[00:20:52] but for the grace of God go I only see things differently because God's work in my heart

[00:20:58] let me take a break and when we come back you mentioned tribalism and that was a chapter that

[00:21:02] I thought was so apropos so I thought we would focus on that since you just mentioned a minute

[00:21:06] ago and I thought we'd pick up at least one or two other of the chapters there's nine chapters

[00:21:11] in the book if you find yourself saying I'd like to read it cover to cover well we have information

[00:21:15] about him as well as the book and so you can click on the website that will take you to his website

[00:21:22] constantinecampbell.info and of course we also have a link to Jesus first evangelicals we'll be

[00:21:28] right back have you ever met a child you knew would do great things they displayed remarkable

[00:21:36] imagination understanding and a zest for learning now imagine someone takes that child and instead

[00:21:42] of fostering their potential with a real education they feed them nothing but lies you know that

[00:21:48] scenario isn't so far from reality from a young age americans are fed a consistent stream of

[00:21:54] distorted facts from the secular indoctrination they receive in many public schools to the

[00:22:00] biases presented as fact in many colleges and universities to the barrage of misinformation

[00:22:06] from the mainstream media and the lack of moral grounding in our society it's not that americans

[00:22:12] aren't capable of understanding the truth it's that they aren't exposed to it enough you can

[00:22:18] expose more americans to the truth when you give to point of view where listeners receive facts

[00:22:24] perspective and biblical truth they don't get from society as long as we have truth we have hope

[00:22:31] give today at point of view dot net or call 1-800-347-5151 point of view dot net and 1-800-347-5151

[00:22:44] point of view will continue after this you are listening to point of view

[00:23:03] the opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management

[00:23:08] or staff of this station and now here again is kirby anderson jesus versus evangelicals a biblical

[00:23:16] critique of a wayward movement written by dr constantine campbell and i wanted to focus some

[00:23:21] time and attention on one of your middle chapters there called tribalism it reminded me of something

[00:23:27] i wrote about years ago there was this article called the hidden tribes of america in which

[00:23:31] they found that you have a percentage on the extreme left and in a group on the extreme right

[00:23:39] and they constitute only about 14 percent of the american population but they're ones that are

[00:23:45] getting most of the attention they're the ones being quoted oftentimes in the media while the

[00:23:52] rest of the 86 percent of americans kind of just watch the battle between these two extremes

[00:23:58] not necessarily agreeing with either of them and so as we come into your chapter on tribalism

[00:24:04] we recognize you're a seminary professor that sometimes theological divisions between calvinism

[00:24:10] and armenianism or between catholicism and eastern orthodox and catholic and protestant some of those

[00:24:17] things make some sense but if we're in our own tribal if you will silo and we are allowing maybe

[00:24:27] the extreme groups to do all of the talking and get all the attention we really are not

[00:24:34] actually doing a very good job as christians trying to be salt and light in our culture what

[00:24:39] are your thoughts oh i absolutely agree with that kirby and and i think tribalism is in some ways

[00:24:48] at the heart of most of the other issues and problems that i discussed in the book because

[00:24:54] yeah um when yeah when the when the when tribalism sets in and when especially when it becomes

[00:25:00] entrenched um it it sort of triggers a bunch of other things for one thing it it creates uh

[00:25:07] obviously creates an often them kind of mentality so that people who are outside the outside the

[00:25:13] tribe you know really can't be trusted or they're either liberal or whatever it might be and we and

[00:25:18] so there we probably can easily dismiss what they're saying without proper consideration

[00:25:24] when you're entrenched in a tribal way of thinking that it's very difficult to be open uh to the fact

[00:25:31] that you may have blind spots um also tribes tend to be kind of sycophantic echo chambers where

[00:25:38] the people at the middle of the tribe everything they say and do is is sort of venerated and taken

[00:25:44] as gospel truth um without you know proper evaluation or healthy healthy scrutinism and

[00:25:52] criticism and in fact if you if you do engage in that sort of thing then you risk being pushed to

[00:25:57] the outside of the tribe or out of the tribal together so it is a kind of i feel an unhealthy

[00:26:05] sort of power ecosystem that you know combats against other communities

[00:26:16] that that resists internal self-critique uh and you know just creates these um ways of being in

[00:26:26] or out that really have very little to do with the teaching of the bible or the teaching of jesus

[00:26:32] it does seem to me too that that also bleeds into and actually leads into your section about

[00:26:38] acceptable sins or maybe let's broaden it a little bit and that is if you will almost the

[00:26:43] celebrity culture if you're part of the tribe i will overlook all sorts of um very concerning

[00:26:52] issues that may not be sexual issues they may be power issues they may manipulating issues and the

[00:26:58] rest of course you do name a number of names in that and that seems to me to be another issue

[00:27:06] which also connects later on with what you call the mega perch pastors not every mega church has

[00:27:13] got theological errors far from it but there are some individuals that almost stand above

[00:27:20] contradiction and that i think comes from the tribalism as well don't you think

[00:27:26] i do agree absolutely yeah the because the tribe venerates the mega star especially those

[00:27:34] the mega church pastors who bring thousands of people into their doors and you know reportedly

[00:27:40] see thousands of people turn to christ then the tribe wants to excuse you know these pesky

[00:27:47] foibles no one's perfect that sort of thing so all of a sudden there's a kind of compassion

[00:27:52] exercise towards these leaders humanity but they're oftentimes excusing

[00:28:02] failures that are very damaging and and very serious and in fact as i argue

[00:28:11] on the in the chapter on acceptable sins it's actually totally out of whack with the teaching

[00:28:18] of the bible and it's not to downplay it's not to downplay the seriousness of

[00:28:24] sins that the tribe takes seriously not wanting to downplay that but recognizing that the tribe

[00:28:31] does downplay sins that the bible takes very seriously and the number one biblical sin as

[00:28:37] i put it is the sin of pride right and it's just an absolutely lethal lethal flaw riddled all the

[00:28:47] way through the bible and including in the teaching and ministry of jesus and pride is insidious

[00:28:59] because it actually i think prevents you from having a genuine relationship with god which

[00:29:05] depends on repentance and faith both of which are impossible for the proud person so the fact that

[00:29:14] the evangelical tribes might excuse or dismiss or live with or not take seriously leaders who are

[00:29:22] oftentimes full of pride is a very serious problem and you know you see the train wreck

[00:29:31] examples of that as i talk about in the chapter yeah you give some good examples by the way i

[00:29:36] might just mention that you go on for almost two pages of all the verbs verses i should say

[00:29:41] of proverbs and psalms talking about pride and you of course do name some names and these are

[00:29:47] pretty familiar individuals that we've talked about on this program before but again that is

[00:29:53] acceptable but it also leads into the idea of a sexual sin or divorce becomes the unforgivable sin

[00:30:01] and i thought we might connect those two chapters together as well because you're honest enough to

[00:30:06] talk about your own divorce and how that has been misused against individuals who sometimes for

[00:30:14] no fault of their own a wife leaves and they lose their opportunity to do ministry yes that's right

[00:30:22] and i think you know obviously marriage failure is tragic under any circumstance and no one goes into

[00:30:28] it thinking that that's how it's going to end and in many cases of course there are exceptions but in

[00:30:35] many cases you know the couples tried really hard to make it work and i think we can underestimate

[00:30:45] the the depth of our humanity and the reality that post genesis 3 post the fall of humanity

[00:30:54] that sometimes we just simply cannot live up to the ideal and the thing is though that's true of

[00:31:04] you know every area of life we don't we fail to live up to the ideal in so many ways

[00:31:11] but the the tribal insistence that divorce and remarriage is like this kind of elevated to the

[00:31:21] level of kind of scandal in some areas of the evangelical church and in many churches

[00:31:28] um is it's really i feel unhealthy and does great damage to the people involved because

[00:31:37] here is you know if a marriage fails um you've got people reeling their worlds are falling apart

[00:31:44] their their families have been uh torn asunder and um the last thing they need is the condemnation of

[00:31:54] other christians and condemnation of the church actually what they need is love and support and

[00:31:59] mercy and kindness and um we are not we are not called to judge yes as we mentioned earlier

[00:32:07] discernment may play a role um but often we're really not in a position to discern what the

[00:32:17] inner dynamics of a very private and intimate relationship might be um and you know we can do

[00:32:24] all that we can to help struggling couples to stay together what and what have you but the reality is

[00:32:29] it's just going to be impossible sometimes um and so what should be the response and and it seems

[00:32:35] to me that the response of jesus when he meets people who have failed tremendously

[00:32:42] um is a response of compassion you know a response of acceptance

[00:32:50] um and of love and those people then turn to him and follow him um whereas often the case

[00:32:59] and this has been reported to me um we see it statistically but also anecdotally um

[00:33:06] um people who've suffered divorce uh then end up leaving the church because

[00:33:13] right they just felt they were ostracized um and that's just to be honest not good enough

[00:33:22] yeah let me take a break i want to continue our conversation but again if you just happen to join

[00:33:26] us constantine campbell is with us he is the author of this book jesus versus evangelicals

[00:33:32] but so many other books we have a link to his website and information about this book if you'd

[00:33:37] like to get a copy we'll take a break and be back with more right after this you're listening to

[00:33:57] point of view your listener supported source for truth for a few more minutes with constantine

[00:34:03] campbell again if you'd like to know more about him or the book we have all that information at

[00:34:07] our website at point of view dot net and constantine you were talking about this whole issue

[00:34:12] divorce and it reminded me of when uh back in the old days i spent probably more time than i do now

[00:34:17] teaching in a doctoral ministry class at dallas seminary and when we would have these pastors come

[00:34:22] in we had a section of course on divorce i've written about this in one of my books and uh

[00:34:27] there'd be a lot of debates back and forth about biblical justification for divorce and divorce

[00:34:32] and remarriage and everything and i after a while would stop and say okay we've talked about all the

[00:34:36] theological issues can we talk about the practical issues because let's face it many of you

[00:34:42] most of you have individuals in your church that are divorced for unbiblical reasons now what do

[00:34:48] you do about that and took them through material that say diane medved wrote about in her book

[00:34:54] the case against divorce some of the material from judith wallerstein about the impact of a

[00:35:01] divorce on adult children of divorce now adults and others and talking about all those issues

[00:35:07] and it really kind of brought us back to the issue of compassion and i do believe that some

[00:35:12] things have changed dramatically we even see it in the political perspective i remember back in 1964

[00:35:19] the question was could nelson rockefeller win the presidency since he'd been divorced

[00:35:24] four years later when ronald reagan who had been divorced was talking about running and of course

[00:35:30] later did run in 1980 that was sort of a non-issue it's still sometimes an issue in the church but

[00:35:37] i think the key and maybe this last a few minutes we could talk about what to provide and compassion

[00:35:45] is one of the things you've mentioned integrity accountability transparency as i go through the

[00:35:53] chapters in your book i can see how churches church organizations elder boards pastors

[00:36:00] denominations haven't really wanted to found their ministry on those fundamental principles

[00:36:07] of integrity and accountability transparency and compassion and yet that's exactly what we need to

[00:36:13] do if we want to right the ship don't we i couldn't agree more yeah that's absolutely right and i think

[00:36:21] this sort of thing kind of happens it's an understandable kind of drift when we start

[00:36:28] forming organizations or you know denominations or parachurch organizations we get sort of caught

[00:36:35] up in the branding logistics strategy mission vision all those things which are helpful and good

[00:36:44] but it's so it's all too easy i feel as part of our human frailty to lose sight of what's

[00:36:52] really important and what's central what's foundational what's at the heart of it

[00:36:57] and i have to say in my own experience of divorce and remarriage it had an effect on my faith where

[00:37:08] a lot of things that i thought were important were kind of stripped away and i began to see why i

[00:37:14] became a christian in the first place which is um the beauty of jesus and yes um who he is and what

[00:37:23] he's done for us and what he continues to do and if we lose sight of that you know the bible talks

[00:37:29] about this jesus himself talks about it when he critiques the churches in the revelation two and

[00:37:34] three says you've lost sight of your first love you know and um unfortunately that's unfortunately

[00:37:41] common i feel and um it takes a certain amount of diligence but but i think you know like in my

[00:37:49] experience sometimes suffering is god's refining fire um that burns away the dross and everything

[00:37:59] that is not pure um and brings us back to the gold of faith which is your connection to the lord jesus

[00:38:11] christ so yeah i feel like pastors need to just continually and leaders of church denomination

[00:38:18] structures seminaries whatever it is continually come back to their first love and remember that

[00:38:25] that's that's out of that place you'd be able to minister to those people who for whom everything

[00:38:31] else is or has been burnt away um you know and and i think that message of compassion and mercy

[00:38:42] that we see so powerfully in the ministry and teaching of jesus is what those who are suffering

[00:38:48] not only divorce but all kinds of tragedies in life that's what they need to hear that's what

[00:38:53] they need to cling to and that is what is going to enable them to be healed and restored in the end

[00:38:59] one of the examples you use is that david brooks has been on the program with us before a columnist

[00:39:04] for the new york times said that if the evangelicals could have elected a pope it would be john stott

[00:39:10] of course i have a very fondness for john stott because growing up in the san francisco bay area

[00:39:14] was reading john stott's book basic christianity and c.s lewis's mere christianity it led me to the

[00:39:19] lord but you talk about the fact that again an individual that talked about the importance of

[00:39:26] the christian mind opposed anti-intellectualism committed to justice for the poor and care for

[00:39:33] the creation and even biblical scholar christopher wright said he was for all of us who knew him a

[00:39:40] walking embodiment of the simple beauty of jesus whom we loved above all else and so in some

[00:39:47] respects you give some examples and that's just one i picked out of what we should be looking to

[00:39:54] all of us have fallen short and all of us certainly are in need of redemption but there

[00:39:59] are some positive role models and those are the kinds of individuals we need more of in the

[00:40:04] evangelical world yes that's right and and and also in that i love that quote by the way about

[00:40:13] stott but um also in that description of stott's life he kept refusing to be elevated within the

[00:40:20] anglican church yes you know so he was an obvious candidate to become a bishop and maybe archbishop

[00:40:25] of canterbury but he didn't want that and he resisted that and because that's not what his

[00:40:32] goal was it wasn't elevation it wasn't to seek more formal power all he wanted to do was yeah

[00:40:41] embody the beauty of jesus and teach the bible and what a powerful powerful ministry he had that we

[00:40:48] still feel the effects of you know many years after his death and i like you have been tremendously

[00:40:54] influenced by his writings the cross of christ for example was a transformative book from my

[00:40:59] theological development and um uh the problem however is our churches um keep elevating people

[00:41:09] who want to be elevated i can put like that we should be trying to elevate yeah yeah really we

[00:41:18] should be looking for the leaders that embody the beauty of jesus well said well we're just about

[00:41:23] out of time and certainly i wanted to thank you i know of course uh we wanted to connect up with

[00:41:28] you you're fortunately in the states but um maybe sometime we can call on you when you're in

[00:41:32] australia and it has been great to have you on the program and uh thank you for your writing thank

[00:41:37] you for giving us an hour today here on point of view thank you so much for having me kelly

[00:41:42] real delight and a privilege we're going to say goodbye for today let me just mention that tomorrow

[00:41:49] we will get back into some of the issues in the news what i did not have a chance to cover

[00:41:53] my good friend bill abruz miller has been with us before and many many years ago this goes back

[00:41:59] to a previous um studio so this goes back at least five six seven eight years at least we talked about

[00:42:07] his book your life in rhythm and yet it's a very good book and i think in light of the hectic nature

[00:42:14] of the world it would be time to revisit that so we're going to bring him back to talk about that

[00:42:20] and we'll certainly spend some time maybe helping you order your life in a way that's going to be

[00:42:26] very helpful and of course bruce miller has been a good friend of this ministry for many years so i

[00:42:30] thought we would mention him as well don't forget that if you find yourself saying okay i'd like to

[00:42:35] read some of these articles by some of the people talking about donald trump religious liberty

[00:42:40] or even this book as well that's all available at our website at point of view dot net we have the

[00:42:45] pray for america and if you would subscribe you'll get a weekly update and we encourage you to do

[00:42:51] that my commentary commentaries are there as well the viewpoints commentary we also of course have

[00:42:57] the spotify highlights of point of view it's all available at our website point of view dot net

[00:43:02] megan thank you for putting those together steve thank you for producing the program and we look

[00:43:07] forward to seeing you tomorrow right here on point of view in 19th century london two towering

[00:43:14] historical figures did battle not with guns and bombs but words and ideas london was home to

[00:43:22] karl marx the father of communism and legendary baptist preacher charles spurgeon london was in

[00:43:30] many ways the center of the world economically militarily and intellectually mark sought to

[00:43:36] destroy religion the family and everything the bible supports spurgeon stood against him warning

[00:43:43] of socialism's dangers spurgeon understood christianity is not just religious truth it is

[00:43:50] truth for all of life where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today

[00:43:57] get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up

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