Point of View May 12, 2025 – Hour 2 : Art Without Instruction

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. Second hour today, we're going to spend some time first of all talking about the arts, and in particular fine arts education. I might just point you to another booklet that we have, this one done by Steve Miller, who is of course our producer of this one.

[00:00:32] I'm holding up for those of you watching online called A Biblical Point of View on Imagination. This is kind of the CliffsNotes version, you can actually go online and read the entire essay there as well. And really going all the way back to the 1970s when I was a young Christian, one of the things that I've been defeated from the most was a book by Francis Schaeffer called Art and the Bible. And it does seem to me that Christians should not give up on the arts, they should be at the forefront of some of that.

[00:01:02] And so I thought it would be very appropriate to actually point you to a very good article that came out in modern age called Art Without Instruction. And we're going to get into that in a few minutes, and then also then the last part of this hour, get into a couple of other controversies. There's of course been a back and forth about what took place at this ICE detention center, and we'll talk about that since it involves some members of Congress,

[00:01:31] and there are accusations back and forth on that. Also, a couple of things happened in the State Department. Of course, this last hour we also got talking about the trade deal with China and many others. So each day I want to try to focus on some issues in the news, but also look at some of the broader issues. And this is one that I think you would find to be very helpful. Joey McFadden is the author of this article. He's a journalist and also an artist in Brooklyn, New York. He's a writer and commentator with Young Voices.

[00:02:01] We've had many people on the program with Young Voices. I might just mention his paintings can be seen on Instagram, but we also have a link to his sub stack. He did an interview, a podcast a while back on art and ideology, and you can find many of the other resources there on the website at pointofview.net. But Joey, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:28] Let's, if we can, help people understand how in some respects art has changed. And that is, we can go back to say the Middle Ages, and individuals there were part of a guild. And so if you wanted to be a painter like you, if you wanted to be an artist of some sort, you would study in a guild as an apprentice, wouldn't you? Yes, yes.

[00:02:54] So, you know, back in the Middle Ages, if you wanted to make art, you would study under a master, and you would learn from that master. And that's what becoming an artist meant in the Middle Ages. And it does seem to me that that's what we're talking about here, that there was an emphasis for some time on really developing your craft.

[00:03:16] And as you point out early on in the paper, there's been this idea that, well, now that we've been able to get rid of wokeness, by the way, I should have held up my booklet on wokeness as well. But nevertheless, that maybe we can restore excellence to the fine arts.

[00:03:31] But your argument in this essay is, well, that's helpful, but there are some other issues because we sort of move from this idea of learning your craft to almost, I don't know, maybe I'm overemphasizing a little bit, to making it more academic. Instead of learning how to be an artist, you sort of learn how to be an art critic. But help us out, because that's really kind of the fundamental issue in your essay, isn't it?

[00:04:00] That's sort of, I think you're kind of getting at it. The point that I'm making is that for centuries or even millennia, there's been really rigorous technical education, whether it be through a guild or through the formal academies. And in the art schools for decades, you did have fairly rigorous training. But beginning sometime in the later 20th century, you know, you had this degradation where, you know, you didn't really need technique anymore.

[00:04:29] And everything became about sort of the ideas behind the art. I mean, you could learn those things, and there might be some classes on them. But standards had really fallen away, and there was no kind of objective measurement of quality anymore. So, you know, what changed is the idea that being an artist is attached to some kind of mastery of a particular set of skills that allow you to articulate a vision. And that has kind of fallen apart. It doesn't mean that these skills aren't taught anywhere.

[00:04:57] It doesn't mean that there aren't art schools that teach well. But, you know, the art schools, particularly within the fine arts, not necessarily architectural or graphic design or industrial design, but in the fine arts in particular, by and large are pretty lacking in rigorous education. Yeah. And if you actually just go down from the studio just a couple of miles, you get to the Dallas Art Institute. I've got a friend that has been teaching there. Actually, he's one that's going with us when we go to Greece next week. And there you do get into it.

[00:05:27] But early on, you talk about the fact that there was what was called, and I learned about this in your piece, College Art Association. And the first president was trying to struggle with, okay, if this is supposed to be fitting in with all the other liberal arts in a college, then we probably need to spend some time teaching theory and talking about some things other than just practical training in the arts. Is that right?

[00:05:56] That's absolutely right. And that still affects the art schools to a significant degree. I mean, my personal experience and experience with many of my peers who went to art schools is that in the classroom itself is not necessarily a theory-heavy environment. There might be some, but sometimes it depends on the students. But, you know, there might be a separate class where you learn theory and it's very dominant. It's all about deconstructing the art.

[00:06:21] But, yeah, the theory stuff, I think, has really taken us away from appreciating, you know, the art as object or looking at the art as something that we appreciate visually. It all becomes very much about the idea of art and academizing, you know, the theory.

[00:06:40] I mean, that was the struggle, really, in bringing the fine arts into the liberal scholastic environment, was reconciling the interests of art historians, of the aesthetic philosophers, of the painters, of the sculptors. And, you know, these fields used to be almost kind of fused into one. And eventually they had to kind of figure out how to reconcile them in this scholastic environment.

[00:07:04] And that ended up, not immediately, but over time, kind of degrading technical education. This is something that Howard Singerman talks about in his book, Art Subjects. Yes. He's probably the preeminent historian of art schools. And, again, as you say at one point, by the late 20th century, as art became distinct from technique, art schools conceived of themselves as existing to resolve the problem of the artist.

[00:07:26] And so students attended gallery openings, read high theory, forced their own paths, often outside of the confines of tradition, to become artists. And that may be, for some, illustrates only so well why some people say, this just doesn't look like the art that we used to know. And since we're coming to a break, I'll come back and get some more perspective from you. But I do remember a time when one of my roommates, actually he was going to be an architect, but he had taken classes in art.

[00:07:55] And that was where, of course, you would be taking all sorts of things like drawing and you would take the human form and all of the rest. And in the past, of course, if you were not able to draw a hand or the body correctly, there would be people, in particular professors or even TAs, to come around and try to correct what you're doing. Now, as you point out, it's a little bit different.

[00:08:24] So we come back and talk about how that has changed dramatically so that even individuals that are in the arts say, you know, the fine arts have become kind of a wasteland and a lack of technical education. And so that may be something that you'll find interesting in this article. It's entitled Art Without Instruction. We'll continue our conversation with Joey McFadden right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Mike Rowe, host of Dirty Jobs, warns that if President Trump's tariffs bring manufacturing jobs back to America, those positions will be hard to fill. He was on the Theo Vaughn program to talk about the manufacturing industry. He explains that if President Trump can reinvigorate the manufacturing sector, the increase in the new jobs will pose a problem since we presently have about 482,000 open positions in manufacturing already.

[00:09:27] Adding another 2 to 3 million new jobs will pose a problem. He talked about what I've discussed in previous commentaries, a two-fold problem, a skills gap, and a will gap. He pointed to a survey of 1,000 U.S.-based 18 to 20-year-olds that discovered that three-quarters of them perceive a stigma with choosing vocation school over attending a four-year college. Put simply, young adults show little interest in joining the blue-collar workforce because they have not been exposed to the industry in school.

[00:09:56] School administrators took shop classes out of high school. They robbed them of the opportunity to even see what kind of work even looks like. Instead, Mike Rowe laments that we told a whole generation of kids they must get a four-year college degree. Mike Rowe also mentioned a statistic that I've documented in previous commentaries. It is a disturbing number, 6.8 million able-bodied men that are not working and not looking for work.

[00:10:22] This number of young men not working and not looking for work is unprecedented. It is time for educational leaders and industry leaders to change attitudes towards working in manufacturing. It is also time to challenge pastors, parents, and other leaders to encourage this generation to develop a work ethic. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free copy of Kirby's booklet, A Biblical View on Inflation, go to viewpoints.info.info.inflation. That's viewpoints.info.inflation. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Mike Rowe once again talking about Art Without Instruction and is written by Joey McFadden. Let me just mention if you go to the substack which we've provided there, you might want to type in Joey T. McFadden.

[00:11:14] And that'll help you find all sorts of different articles, podcasts, and other resources that are there. But, Joey, let me get into this because it seems to me, and I learned this by reading your article, maybe this whole idea of art classes have changed. You say, Fine arts professors have a degree of academic freedom that borders on anarchy. I smiled at that one. Liberty to teach whatever they want, however they want, or not to teach at all. And he pointed out that many art professors simply sit, walk around, or converse with their students,

[00:11:42] providing little instruction or guidance. And the bottom line is that you have individuals that have maybe taken even advanced classes that say they feel sort of cheated because they really didn't learn anything. And so the model that we just talked about a few minutes ago in terms of a guild and an apprentice and learning from a master, that seems to have evaporated in some of these art classes. Yes, I would definitely agree with that.

[00:12:11] I mean, I think something important to note is that in most art schools, you have a year called Foundations, where you actually do have rigorous instruction. I remember when I was in Foundations, and my peers who've been in Foundations can attest to that. That does exist. But following that in subsequent years of instruction, you tend to have a sort of a fear to keep the students' work, or there's no unified sort of standards, or there's no kind of overarching curriculum that explains this is what we're supposed to learn in a sequential order.

[00:12:41] And that's all just kind of evaporated. And, you know, so some students who are very self-guided end up doing fine, and they use art school to network and stuff. And I know people who do that. Other people who came there to find real guidance, technically speaking, are often very disappointed because it basically just doesn't exist. Yes. Well, let's talk about the other aspect of critique. By the way, I might just mention that even though we're introducing you as a painter,

[00:13:07] also you're a journalist, and you've got information and some great commentary on identity politics and some of the political issues. Of course, I mentioned the one on art and ideology, even won a column recently on the VP debate and all sorts of things. So I want people to go and kind of dig deeply there. But part of that gets down to critique. And that is you produce whatever it might be. It might be a sculpture. It might be a painting. It could be even if you're in a photography class, whatever.

[00:13:35] And then the goal is to provide some criteria to evaluate that person's work. And the problem you point out, and I think it gets back to wokeness and some other issues, is I think illustrated by the book The Room of Silence. You really can't talk about certain things because if the artistic piece relates to race, to gender,

[00:14:03] a variety of other things, all you can simply do is kind of affirm the person and not even question whether or not that was even a good piece of art. Is that fair? I think that that's fair. The Room of Silence is actually a student documentary. It's a book, but it was made in 2016, so a little while ago. But, you know, kind of at sort of the height of political correctness when – and I think this is probably still a problem in our schools because they're so progressive.

[00:14:33] But, you know, critique is supposed to be evaluating the work, and it's difficult to evaluate the work when the students are sensitive or when the work focuses on a subject that people don't want to talk about because they're afraid to. I think that's been starting to change culturally, but universities are probably a holdout school, so it's difficult to do that. And it's interesting that I actually know someone who happens to be African-American who left an art school because he felt like no one was the cheapest work when it focused on racial subjects and he found it very frustrating.

[00:15:03] Yeah. You know, and in the documentary, one of the students literally says, but how can I know if I'm not making good work if you're not going to give me feedback if it's about an issue like race? That's important. So I think that that still is a problem. You know, the students are sensitive. They might report into an administrator. I've known people to whom this has happened where they're investigated for these privileged reasons, and they're afraid to complete the students' work, and so it kind of shuts down. Lori Fendrick has talked about this a lot.

[00:15:30] She's a painting emeritor from Hofstra, and she's written about this subject. I quote her in the piece. You know, another aspect of that is self-censorship. That was part of that documentary, Self-Censorship in the Art Schools. And, of course, we've seen, Joey, self-censorship in a variety of other areas as well. Students won't take on a paper that might get some kind of negative reaction from fellow students or from the professor.

[00:15:56] And in some respects, in the place where you would expect art to have maybe the greatest freedom and the greatest use of, again, to use the word that we use in our booklet that Stephen Myers put together on imagination. It really stifles imagination if, indeed, there are sort of no-go areas in terms of artistic expression or no-go areas in terms of critiquing.

[00:16:23] And so that's not helpful for the flourishing of arts in the 21st century, do you think? Right. I mean, just like how self-censorship hinders the sciences or history because you can't just confirm bad ideas, you can't really help guide someone toward improving the quality of their art if you can't talk about, you know, quality or standards. And, you know, the idea that it's all just subjective, I mean, when you look at something

[00:16:50] and it just looks ugly and uninteresting and incomplete, it's a good thing to be able to say that. It's a good thing to be able to have some set of standards of quality and to be able to communicate that to people. If you can't communicate that to people, then they're not going to be able to learn. Let's, just before I let you go, talk about something else, and that is you kind of end your essay by talking about the fact that the United States may be entering a period of national change more significant than the destruction of woke ideology.

[00:17:19] And that is some of these universities that have been, as you say, culturally stale, maybe have a chance to redefine themselves. And it does seem to me that you are one of the many people we've quoted from younger voices. As a matter of fact, tomorrow we'll have a millennial roundtable, where we'll have a roundtable of individuals addressing that. But it does seem that you are seeing the possibility of some cultural shifts.

[00:17:45] So share from your perspective what you see right now and what you think might happen in the future. Well, I think that some universities are starting to realize that, you know, they really do need to be places of open discussion. I was just at a group discussion at Columbia University where we talked about whether or not ICE, the university should cooperate with ICE. So, you know, there's – I think we're in a period now where people are really feeling, like,

[00:18:12] more open to wanting to have conversations with each other, to talking about difficult subjects. And I think universities might be rediscovering their purpose. And that being said, I'm not the biggest fan of everything the Trump administration is doing, and I still think that universities serve a very important role in science and medicine, and that's something that needs to be protected. So, again, I just think it's kind of intriguing. You know, again, you said if we're truly going to enter a golden age,

[00:18:38] universities should teach students the skills to depict a vision that affects something meaningful about life. And it does seem to me that that's one of the conversations that we will continue to have about the issue of art, creativity, and imagination. So, Joey, first of all, I want to say thank you for writing this piece. But also, let me just point people to the link. We have, of course, a place where we say visit the website, click on that button first, and then it will take you to Substack. And the best way to find him is Joey T. McFadden.

[00:19:07] And I've mentioned just a few of his pieces on everything from art and ideology, which is one of the most recent posts. There's a podcast, and you can find some material there, of course, on everything from liberty to breaking bread and the certainty trap, then columns that have been produced there as well. And so just a lot of great material, and I think if you would want to know a little bit more about him, we've given you a chance to find all of that on the website at pointofview.net.

[00:19:36] But, so again, Joey, I hope we can call on you in the future, and thank you for writing the column, and thank you for giving us some time today here on Point of View. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Going to take a break, and when we come back, let me just mention, as we have, that first of all, these articles that we've been talking about are all available at the website at pointofview.net. Hunter Williams in the first hour, Joey McFadden in the second hour, and when we come back, I want to get into a couple of really controversial issues that are kind of in the news

[00:20:05] that I think are worthy of some consideration before we wind down. As I mentioned, tomorrow we're going to have a Millennial Roundtable, and, of course, that's where we hear from some of the individuals that are part of the group called Young Voices, and, of course, Joey McFadden is one of many that we've had on the program. But just before we take a break, one more time, let me mention that we do have a banner there, and it says Viewpoints. Subscribe today. If you click on that, there's an opportunity for you to get the commentary.

[00:20:33] As we've talked about throughout the week, we've had a few people talk about it. It is a two-minute commentary, which, again, is something that's heard on about 600 radio stations. I think it's on all of the Bot Radio Network stations, all the American Family Radio stations, many of the Moody stations, and many of the stations that carry this program point of view. But it would take even less time than two minutes for you to read it. I think a lot of people have appreciated it. As a matter of fact, so many people say,

[00:21:00] I not only appreciate getting it because you get some facts and figures and some links, but then I can just hit the refer and send it on. I can post it on my Facebook page or on X, or I can send it to an individual that I think would benefit from that. And so, again, we are making that available. We certainly have begun talking about it because we realize so many people listen to Point of View but don't even know they can get the Viewpoints commentary for free. So it's available on our website at pointofview.net. We'll be right back.

[00:21:31] The Bible tells us not to worry. And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today. Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry. God gives us a next step. He says we need to pray. But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult. And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement,

[00:21:58] a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation. Each week you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans, along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others. We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand. Will you commit to Pray for America?

[00:22:25] Go to pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe. Again, that's pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again, about a half an hour left before the end of the program today. As I mentioned before, of course, tomorrow is our Millennial Roundtable. I mentioned that before.

[00:23:22] And again, since we had just a minute ago, Joey McFadden, who is an individual that is part of Young Voices, one of the other Young Voices will be with us, and that is William Barkley. We had him on recently. And so he'll be joining Chelsea and Liberty and some others around the roundtable. So I think you'll appreciate that conversation. And I know that some of you have said, I'm really concerned about the next generation. And certainly we talked about some of that in terms of the lack of doctrinal orthodoxy in the younger generation

[00:23:52] and the conversation we had with Hunter Williams the first hour. But I think you can be encouraged by hearing some of these very articulate voices around the roundtable. So I know that you will appreciate the conversation there. Then I'll be back with you Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, of course. And I'll get into all of that in just a few minutes. Let's work our way through the last two articles I've posted for you today. And I'll add also one additional issue.

[00:24:16] And that has to do with the controversy that's developed over the back and forth, the claims back and forth, when you had three New Jersey Democrats in the House of Representatives, as well as the mayor of Newark, who actually stormed, is the phrase that some have used, Delaney Hall Detention Center unannounced. And this is, again, sort of a back and forth that we'll get into.

[00:24:46] But let me, before we get into the controversy that that involves, let's maybe come back to what I call first principles, because sometimes that helps us think through these issues. Let's think about the differences in terms of punishment that would be appropriate. If there's a federal building and you trespass, I think you should be prosecuted.

[00:25:11] But just because you trespass doesn't mean that we throw away the key and put you in jail for a long period of time. If you then go into a building and vandalize it, it seems to me that that punishment should be greater than if you actually were trespassing, because now you have done certain acts, and I think the punishment should increase.

[00:25:35] And then number three, that if you assault an officer, that should be the highest punishment. Would you agree? Now, if you accept that, before we even get to New Jersey, let's apply it to two issues we've been talking about. One, of course, going all the way back to January 6th. It is one thing to say that an individual came on the Capitol grounds but did not go into the Capitol.

[00:26:03] It's quite another to talk about a person that went into the Capitol. It's quite another to talk about an individual that went into the Capitol and vandalized something or took something or broke windows. And it's even worse if that individual went into the Capitol and harmed a police officer. Got it? The Capitol Police. We should recognize that there are a scale of offenses and punishments.

[00:26:32] And so, as you have heard us say before, it makes no sense, and I think it is a real travesty of justice, if an individual was on the Capitol grounds but didn't even go in, or we've heard stories of individuals went in there and prayed but then get locked away, as if they are equal to an individual that was actually assaulting an officer. And so, you can kind of see how you have to sort of think through the issue,

[00:27:00] whether you're talking about January 6th or let's now go to the one we talked about on Friday. The various pro-Hamas, and I'm not sure all of them were students. As a matter of fact, I'm sure many of them were not. But students who came in and took over the reading room in the library there at Columbia University defaced a tremendous, significantly, amount of this wonderful library

[00:27:26] and in a couple of cases actually hurt the campus police until they were moved out, and then there were even assaults against, I believe, the New York police. You can see that we're going to treat the actions differently. Now, once you think through that, and I've used one that had to do with individuals that were maybe considered pro-Trump or certainly anti-government

[00:27:53] and all sorts of different anarchists and things like that, others which were pro-Hamas, it is a little different, but again, nobody's above the law when you're talking about members of the House of Representatives. And the assault that took place there is significant. Again, we have these three representatives, LaMonica McIver, Bonnie Watson Coleman, and Rob Menendez.

[00:28:20] By the way, if that name sounds familiar, that's the son of the individual serving time. There were some interesting posts on X about that. And then Newark's mayor, Ross Baraka. And they actually stormed, according to the press reports, the Delaney Hall Detention Center, which were unannounced. Now, the mayor was arrested on the spot and charged with trespassing.

[00:28:46] But there's where you get the claim and counterclaim, the charge and countercharge. For example, you have Representative LaMonica posting on X that she says there is shoving. There's L... Excuse me. Let me go to her comments first. She wrote on X that ICE shoved her and manhandled her and Watson Coleman.

[00:29:11] And during the press conference, McIver escalated the claim saying she was assaulted by multiple ICE officers while regional directors of ICE watched it happen. So some of that is posted on X and some of that came in the press conference. And so this is where, as I have said before, I hope that anybody in law enforcement... I don't care if it's the Capitol Police.

[00:29:37] I don't care if it's your local police force in your small community. I don't care if it's ICE agents. When you actually have the kind of video cameras necessary, which now are very easy to post on individuals, you can begin to see that the claims don't match the facts.

[00:30:02] And so here you actually have, and I give you the article, which you'll find on the second page, the body cam video of the altercation on Delaney Hall, in which I think any fair-minded person would say, well, yes, but I see Representative LaMonica shoving and elbowing her way past a DHS agent. That would be the Department of Homeland Security to get past the gate and get into the property.

[00:30:30] Now, again, this gets into another issue. When a member of Congress shows up at a federal building, that doesn't mean that the federal building has to open the door to a member of Congress. We saw that when we had this great protest in front of the Department of Education. So a lot of this is street theater. And so what I did was give you an article that shows you both the comments from the members of Congress,

[00:30:58] as well as some of the footage and the body cam photos and video so that you can see it for yourself. And I think any fair-minded person would simply see this as the fact that they came there unannounced, came there to create a store, really wanted to get into the facility, wanted to use that to call attention to their concerns about deportation and all the rest.

[00:31:26] But the bottom line is that the Department of Homeland Security's assistant secretary, that would be Tricia McLaughlin, said, look, if you assault a law enforcement officer, we will also make sure you answer to justice. And she said, so I think the arrests are still on the table for this. This is an ongoing investigation. Last time I heard, DHS, the Department of Homeland Security,

[00:31:52] have not announced charges yet about who actually came into the facility. But I really wanted to, as much as possible, give you kind of the point and counterpoint, because depending on which particular news outlet you watch, you're probably only going to get one side or the other. And you will see, of course, some of the postings that will appear in X, for example, right now.

[00:32:19] The way we were treated, this comes from two of the members of Congress, quote, the way we were treated at Delaney Hall is almost unbelievable. I shoved me and manhandled me and arrested the mayor, which, again, the facts are certainly true, but who started what and when did it actually take place. So, again, I found many articles on both sides of this issue. This one at least allows you to see what was posted on X,

[00:32:47] what was stated at the press conference, and what is actually in the body cam video. And I think most people would say, okay, let's go back to our first principles. It is certainly illegal to trespass on federal property unless you're invited. Certainly it is illegal to vandalize that. That doesn't apply so much here as it did to Columbia University. And it is certainly illegal to assault an officer.

[00:33:14] So you, I think, now have a much better look and understanding of what has taken place. And if you see some of these news reports or some of these clips over the next few days, I think at least you know that there is a very worthwhile article that you can find on our website at pointofview.net. Let's take a break. We have a lot more to cover. All that coming up right after this.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back for a few more minutes. Let's again apply some of those first principles. I'm just, again, helping you understand how to kind of think through these issues. And just a minute ago, I recognized that there was some real controversy associated with the desire of three members of Congress and the mayor of Newark to enter the ICE Detention Center.

[00:34:21] But, again, if you think through before you get into the politics of it, you know, what do we require of an individual if they trespass without permission on a federal grounds, if they are engaged in vandalism or assaulting an officer? That is sort of a principle that you need to think through as you then encounter some of these stories. And they are controversial stories. But, again, these are the ways to think that through.

[00:34:47] This one that I have now, which is a piece by David N. Sarah, is entitled, We Can't Censor Our Way to Progress. And I may not completely agree with all of his conclusions, but even to get into this, let's think this through. Do you have free speech? Yes, we should have free speech. And the censorship of free speech is something we've talked about so often here on Point of View.

[00:35:11] You have freedom of speech, but you don't have freedom from the consequences of the speech that you articulate. And so it does seem to me that as we get into this other issue of deportation or removing some individuals from this country by canceling their visas, we, on the one hand, want to acknowledge that you have freedom of speech, but it's not freedom to vandalize.

[00:35:40] You have freedom of speech, but it's not freedom to call for a revolution or to prevent, in the case of colleges, Jewish students from going into the classroom. You have freedom of speech, but you don't have the freedom to occupy a library and thus prevent students who are studying for their finals from being able to go about their day-to-day activity. And once you understand that, you can begin to see the article that we're going to talk about.

[00:36:09] David N. Sarah points out the fact that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, recently declared that the State Department had accumulated dossiers characterizing certain Americans, including now many members of the Trump administration, as purveyors of misinformation and disinformation. This follows the Rubio announcement last month that he would be shutting down the counter-disinformation unit at the State Department.

[00:36:36] And so he says, certainly, Marco Rubio is right to criticize such attempts at censorship, but he believes that this conflicts in the way the Trump administration has punished immigrants for their speech. So that's the second part of this. But let's take the first part, because that's the easiest. And that is, the Marco Rubio and the State Department have closed down what's called the Counter-Foreign Information Manipulation and Interference Office at the State Department.

[00:37:04] This was sort of the final incarnation of what used to be known as the Global Engagement Center, which Congress defunded at the end of 2024. You might remember this because we talked about how it would blacklist various groups, especially if they were right of center, maybe if they were libertarian or whatever it might be.

[00:37:28] And so that is something that I think, if we really believe in free speech, we should applaud what Marco Rubio is doing there. David Incero, who is with the Cato Institute, says, Marco Rubio is right to close this office to prevent such abuse in the future. Too many government agencies and disinformation experts have labeled Americans' views and speech as disinformation and foreign propaganda.

[00:37:53] These mistakes, he says, have been causing significant discord, even as they attempt to stop foreign governments' attempts to sow discord. The government has a limited role in combating clear-cut cases of foreign malign influence if officials have relevant intelligence and information they can use to educate Americans and are partners around the world and prosecute foreign bad actors.

[00:38:21] So, again, David Incero says, most fundamentally, Marco Rubio is correct in objecting to the government being involved at all. The problem, according to Rubio, isn't just the wrong people and the NGOs were picked to police disinformation. But the problem was that the government was picking anybody to do this at all. And, of course, we've talked about so much of that comes from the Twitter files. So, that part, I don't think, is very controversial.

[00:38:49] But now, David Incero says, okay, that's why he says Marco Rubio's action to strip legal immigrants of their visas for disfavored speech are also problematic. As many as several hundred visas seem to be revoked due to pro-Palestinian speech, let's be clear,

[00:39:33] So, first of all, I don't disagree. He's made the criteria. It's back to what we've said. It's one thing to have free speech. It's quite another to say that free speech allows you to block entrances to universities, or that free speech allows you to take over a library. That free speech allows you to heckle and to actually threaten Jewish students. You see that?

[00:39:58] But what his concern is, is that there could be, and he believes has happened, a widespread stripping of visas is not about punishing law-breaking immigrants, but rather punishing those with disfavored views. Now, he points out that we should be concerned, and we should. If that becomes a precedent that is established in the Trump administration, think it through in the future. What if you have Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders, the president?

[00:40:27] I know, hard to imagine right now, but who knows? Someday there could be a president who then would want to actually punish individuals that have conservative views, Christian views, Jewish views, whatever it might be. So that is the case. But he ends by quoting Marco Rubio, and I think Marco Rubio has it right. Our republic is based on putting trust in the ordinary citizenry.

[00:40:52] Our founding fathers took the bold step of believing that ordinary citizens can sift through information, decide which policies and candidates are best, and vote accordingly. And so David in Sarah says, this logic applies to handling misinformation, content moderation on social media, questions about conflict in the Middle East, and countless other free speech issues.

[00:41:14] We can't silence our way to truth, censor our way to progress, or deport our way to settle debates. I think he's objecting to the use of widespread stripping of visas, and if that is the case, I would agree with him. But so far, most of what I've seen from the Secretary of State Marco Rubio is to remove the visas of those individuals who are the agitators and the people that have made it very difficult

[00:41:44] for students on campus to feel safe or for them to even study for their finals. And as we talked about on Friday, I think that's an issue as well. Both these articles are, of course, in the area of controversy. We don't shy away from controversy here on Point of View. But I do want you to sometimes think through first principles so that as you encounter one of these issues,

[00:42:08] you begin to think about what's right and what's appropriate, what punishment is appropriate and what is not. And I think you can see that there have been in the past some very significant miscarriages of justice. And if this goes the wrong direction, as David and Sarah fears, well, we need to speak out against that as well. That's all we have for today here on Point of View. Tomorrow, of course, is our Millennial Roundtable. If you find yourself saying, well, I'd like to find some of the articles you're talking about,

[00:42:37] they're all available at the website pointofview.net. Click on that button that says See More. You'll find those articles. I don't think they're posted yet, but sometime in the future we'll get those posted, and you'll be able to find those articles, and I think you will benefit from those as well. And again, let me encourage you to find out more about the Hunter Williams book, because I think we need to train our kids in theology. I want to thank Megan and Steve for the help behind the scenes. See you back here tomorrow, right here on Point of View.

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