Point of View June 25, 2026 – Hour 1 : Courageous Identity

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. Thanks for joining me, this is the Thursday edition of Point of View and as we talked about yesterday we're going to be talking about the men's issue. As a matter of fact I might just point to the fact that my commentary yesterday was on the male crisis.

[00:00:32] We also did one a while back called American Idol, I-D-L-E, talking about the fact that according to the Department of Labor, one in three men were neither working nor looking for a job as recently as April, and so there is a real need to really emphasize men, masculinity and to think through some of these issues. Oftentimes when I travel around to the various churches and even radio stations that carry this program,

[00:01:00] many times they'll ask me to go and speak to a men's group and almost without exception they say, well the women's group is going pretty well, they kind of develop these steel magnolia relationships. The men's group needs some help, although I've seen some that really are blowing and going, but if you're looking for something to encourage men, and this could be a pastor, an elder, a church leader, or if you're a wife and you're saying I would like to encourage my husband, my brother, my father,

[00:01:29] I think you're going to really enjoy this book. It is written by Dr. Paul Pettit. It is entitled A Courageous Identity. Now Paul Pettit has been on the program with us before. He's the Director of Career Services. He teaches in the departments of spiritual formation and pastoral ministries, works with of course the alumni. Some of his books, we have a whole list of them, Dynamic Dads, How to Be a Hero to Your Kids, Foundations of Spiritual Formation, Blessed Are the Balanced.

[00:01:56] He is an individual that is a graduate of Moody Bible, as well as University of Kansas, and has his doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary. And Paul Pettit, it is always great to see you. Thanks Kirby, great to be here, great to be back. Last time you were here you brought a whole lot of students that were watching the interview, and we have a few people watching, but not quite as many as you brought in from Dallas Seminary last time. And this book is entitled Courageous Identity. Now this is published by Whittaker House.

[00:02:25] You probably can find it in your local bookstore because it's just come out, but if you have any difficulty, of course we have a link to it on our website. Courageous Identity, Accepting the Call of Christ-Centered Masculinity. And it's interesting because in the commentary that I wrote the other day, which aired yesterday, I mentioned Nancy Piercy's book, and for those of you watching online, I'll hold that up because we did that interview a while back with her a couple of years ago,

[00:02:54] The Toxic War on Masculinity. And that book and your book both refer to it because we recognize that men sort of are caught in this crossfire. They're being told in the church to be the godly men to actually lead their families and to actually go out there and exercise godly masculinity. They're being told by the culture that what they are doing is toxic.

[00:03:20] And many women are saying, I don't even have a place for a man in my life, and I can't think of a reason why people would want to have a book more than to have this book because it answers many of those questions. And that's really why you wrote it, isn't it? That's right. We're talking about an identity where a man says, I want to follow Jesus Christ. I want to follow the Bible. I want to follow the scriptures. But in today's culture, that can take courage because he comes out and says, I follow Jesus Christ. I follow the Bible. And they say, oh, wait a minute. Are you toxic? Are you violent?

[00:03:49] So there's an authority there, but it's an authority to serve. Whenever we see Jesus in a leadership position and a position of authority, he's always putting a towel over his arm. He's washing the disciples' feet. He's laying down his life for his bride. So there is a masculinity that's a godly masculinity. It's not like the world's masculinity. It's not a toxic masculinity, but it's a Christ-centered masculinity. I might just mention the book is broken into three or four sections.

[00:04:15] By the time we get to the fourth section, it's serving in worship, serving in the home, serving in the community. So servant is a big issue. Humility is a big issue. And to give her due, Nancy Piercy pointed out that actually there were research studies that were done. And they found that interestingly enough, those men who attend church on a regular basis shatter all of those negative stereotypes. They are more loving to their wives, more emotionally engaged with their children.

[00:04:43] As a matter of fact, less likely to divorce and less likely to commit domestic violence. So in some respects, we certainly do identify the whole issue of toxic manhood and the Me Too phenomenon. In some respects, that's sort of in the background. But what I love about this, Paul, is that you spend a fair amount of time just teaching basic theology. Section one is who can practice Christ-centered masculinity.

[00:05:11] And so if you maybe right now are leading a small group of men and you feel like I really need to teach them kind of Bible 101. Yeah. But they really want to know what it means to be a man, you sort of take them through some Bible teaching first, which they need to have. And at the same time, they'll be willing to put up with some of that because in a sense, they're wanting to answer some of those questions. So you really take us through this whole section.

[00:05:38] And one of those, if we can talk about it for just a minute, is the fact that we're created in the Imago Dei. Can you explain? That's right. In the Imago Dei, we're created fully human, but we're created in two types. And that is male and female. And he says it's very good, very interesting that he doesn't say we're created tall and short or black and white or fat and skinny. Male and female seems to be one of the major dividing points. And so in our culture today where people are saying, oh, there's hundreds of genders or you can choose your own gender.

[00:06:08] The scriptures point to a husband and a wife, a father and a mother. So God's good design for marriage, God's good design for family involves a male who serves as a husband or a father and a female who serves as a mother or a wife. But boy, that's countercultural today. It certainly is. And one of the things you do from time to time is show some graphs.

[00:06:28] And we talked about those the other day because we had an interview that we did in which we were talking about some of the graphs that came from the professor of sociology at University of Virginia. And you have a very similar graph of Brad Wilcox, who was, again, an individual we've interviewed and we also quoted from him. This particular chart actually, again, shows that married share of the male household population is declining.

[00:06:55] So we are in a situation where fewer and fewer getting married, fewer men head of the household. And so if there's ever a need for a book on courageous identity, that's exactly why you've written this, isn't it? And we're seeing that 33 percent of kids are growing up in a home today with no father figure. It's unbelievable. Some are calling it a fatherless America where there's a real lack of fatherhood. But we know that you can be raised by a single mom and still be great.

[00:07:24] But there needs to be that masculine influence, a coach, a teacher, a father figure, an uncle, a grandfather. So a boy has to leave the world of the feminine and be accepted into the world of the masculine. There's a break there. And we know that from the marriage that says you have to leave and then cleave. A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife. So there is that break from the feminine where a boy becomes masculine.

[00:07:48] And, you know, I've talked about, and of course, you are in a church, so you can relate to this, that sometimes for the single moms, we say, let's see if we can find a male mentor. Absolutely. And many times it's a coach if they're into sports or in some cases it could be that they're really into computers. And you go to one of these computer shows or something like that. Because there's just a real need for boys to figure out what it means to be a man. And they live in a world of women, by and large.

[00:08:17] So many of the teachers in grade school and even junior high tend to be women. And so that's another aspect of that as well. Because this whole chapter on created in the Imago Dei gets into different aspects of marriage. What about single men? What about children and all the rest? But we need to take a break. And when we come back, we'll talk about the flip side of that. And then get into some of the other issues. Who can practice Christ-centered masculinity? Where are the Christ-centered men?

[00:08:47] Lots of things to talk about right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. There's a phrase I often hear at conferences and on YouTube videos that is usually credited to Lynn Alden, author of the excellent book Broken Money.

[00:09:13] She and others often use the phrase nothing stops this train to illustrate the unstoppable momentum of fiscal deficits. She borrowed the phrase from a line in the program Breaking Bad. Ray Dalio is a billionaire hedge fund manager and founder of Bridgewater Associates. I think he might start using the phrase. He was in Washington, D.C. to meet with senior leaders on the Republican side and Democratic side about the budget deficit. He explained that virtually everyone agrees that you have to get the budget deficit down to 3% of GDP. He then asked them the logical question.

[00:09:43] Why can't you make a pledge that you will get it down to 3%? They explained the absolute policies that must exist. You must make statements like I will absolutely pledge not to raise your taxes. I will absolutely pledge not to reduce your benefits. He concluded that this is the equivalent of an absolute pledge not to change the trajectory we're on in order to have a better set of circumstances than the likely financial crash there were going to have.

[00:10:07] He lamented that they all agree about the consequences of this debt problem and they all agree that they cannot speak up about it because their constituents would throw them out of office. And their political parties would exert enough pressure on them that it is impossible to make those compromising statements and actions that bring together the revenue and expenses to produce a good budget. You know, we have a $39 trillion national debt and nearly $2 trillion deficits each year.

[00:10:32] Ray Dalio's conversation with the political leadership illustrates that Congress can't stop the debt train. And that's why I've concluded nothing stops this train. I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net.

[00:11:00] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again, Dr. Paul Pettit in studio with us today. Let me just mention that if you go to the website, the newly revamped Point of View website, you will see a picture of Paul. You can click on a button that says Read More, View the Profile. There's a place where you could link up with him in LinkedIn or Facebook. A major fact, probably Facebook would be a good way to connect up with him or, of course, at Dallas Theological Seminary.

[00:11:28] And I might just mention right now, Paul, you would be a great speaker for men's retreats and to take this book and work your way through that. So if you're maybe wanting to launch a men's retreat or maybe trying to develop your men's movement in your church, this is a book to get started with. But also, I would encourage people to contact you because you're available, aren't you? I love doing that. I love speaking at a father-daughter event, a father-son event, or a men's weekend retreat. That's awesome. Well, we talked good news.

[00:11:58] We're created in God's image. Bad news is we have a sin nature. That's right. And you take us to the fallen issue, which reminds us that we also, as you go through that, I'll have to deal with you. And I thought this was really good. I appreciate your vulnerability, dangerous landmines, pornography, human trafficking, and things of that nature. So let's, if we can, talk about the flip side of that because that's a real problem as well. Redeemed masculinity is very healthy. It's servant leadership.

[00:12:26] But unredeemed masculinity, raw masculinity is oftentimes selfish, violent. We're bigger than women, so sometimes an ungodly man would take advantage of a woman. We're greedy, so we maybe steal from the office. So there is a toxic masculinity out there, and it's ugly. But what the feminists did in the 70s was, second wave feminism, all of masculinity itself is toxic. You see what they did there? Yeah.

[00:12:55] There can be a healthy masculinity. There can be a godly masculinity. But they said toxic masculinity itself is wrong. And if you would just act more feminine, Kirby, if you would become feminine, then you would be a good person. So a lot of men are very confused by this. They're told, you need to be more soft. You need to be more kind. Actually, you need to act like us. You need to act like a woman. Then you'll be accepted. But the scriptures say that, again, both masculinity and femininity can be redeemed. And masculinity has a very important place in our culture.

[00:13:23] Well, again, part of the way in which this has surfaced is we talk quite a bit, Paul, about what's happening with Generation Y, the millennial generation, especially Generation Z. And this may be the first time in history in which more Gen Z men are interested in church than Gen Z women. More Gen Z men are interested in marriage than Gen Z women. And you can go out on YouTube and see interviews that they've done with women being asked, well, do you need a man in your life? No, I don't need a man in my life.

[00:13:53] As a matter of fact, I don't want a man in my life. And you can see how that particular issue has played itself out. Now, you go back to some of the conversation we've had with Sandra Golan, who you know at Dallas Seminary and others, and with even Nancy Piercy. It used to be that the women were getting this cross-cultural message. Some being told you need to be a homemaker. Some said that you need to go out into the workforce. And the people, women in the workforce were feeling a little bit strange because they weren't at home. And the ones at home feel like they were missing out.

[00:14:22] But we have the same thing happening for men. This cross-cultural message that is really hurting them. And talk about some of those landmines because, in some respects, it is real easy because of these digital devices we carry around in our pockets. That's right. For some really unhealthy things to develop among men. For example, pornography. When you and I were young, you'd see some guy sneaking into a bookstore with a brown paper bag, maybe buying a magazine.

[00:14:50] Today, a young man pulls out his cell phone, and he's right there immediately with three or four clicks away. Or gambling. You remember gambling was, you go find a bookie or you go to Las Vegas. Today, online gambling, which is one of the dangerous things. Young men, they have their credit cards hooked up to the gambling. They have their bank account. And in the middle of the game, they get a ping on their phone that says, Come on, are you going to double down? Are you going to do this? And their buddies are saying, Come on, man, do it. Do it.

[00:15:16] And it's talked about as terror among young men who are going broke, online gambling. So, yeah, there's some pulls. There's some sins. There's some downfalls that young men are facing that maybe they didn't face in a previous generation. But they still need to turn to Jesus Christ for the answer. I just mentioned, too, that we have booklets on a biblical view on pornography, a biblical view on gambling and the rest.

[00:15:41] But you've been talking about this idea of redeemed, which is the third chapter, redeemed, Christ and the cross. Because it does seem to me that there are some issues. One that you talk about is the importance of forgiveness. How many times have we run into men who are actually marked or flawed because of a difficulty with their father? And so we're going to talk a little bit later about promise keepers. And that's one of the things they certainly took people through.

[00:16:09] But that this idea of being redeemed is a really key aspect of that first section, isn't it? That's right. A lot of men I work with, 30 years old, 40 years old, Kirby, they say, I just wish my father would say I'm proud of you. I just wish my father would say I love you. So there's a father hunger out there. There's a hunger for an older, wiser man, maybe a man that's paid the stupid tax, maybe a man with some gray hair who would mentor me or disciple me. So I think in our culture, there's a real hunger for what does it mean to be a real man?

[00:16:39] Not a violent man, not an evil man. But what does it mean to be a real man just like Jesus who was fully human? Jesus was fully male and fully divine. So we can be redeemed as men. We can practice a Christ-centered type of masculinity, which serves, which is kind, which is loving, but it's still 100% male. Yes. And again, when you look at Christ, you see the whole range, don't you?

[00:17:03] I mean, at one point, consider the lilies of the field and compassion and neither do I accuse you in calling for people to be willing to be forgiven. And on the other hand, overturning tables and challenging the Pharisees. And there's just so much that you can begin to understand because Christ is our model. Let's get to the next section there. Where are the Christ-centered men?

[00:17:27] And the first issue that you bring us into, and again, as an individual speaks on spiritual formation, body life. Can you speak to that? Well, there are cultural issues at stake because when we think of a Christian man now, they're labeled. It's almost like, oh, you're a Christian man? We're maybe leery. But in the body of Christ, there's unsung heroes. Think about all the men that go to serve a single mom. Think about all the men that go to serve maybe a widow. They fix her fence. They fix her house. These are the behind the scenes.

[00:17:57] These are the way masculinity redeems itself. I'm working with a single mom helping her fix her car. No one sees that. No one applauds that. But that's the behind the scenes. A young man who's learning how to be a dad for the first time, changing diapers or staying up late with a baby. This is real masculinity, redeemed masculinity, Christ-centered masculinity that's oftentimes not applauded by the world. You know, in the world, the guy says, I'm in charge here, or I get the corner office.

[00:18:24] But in Christ-centered masculinity, we put a towel over our arm and we find those people that are hurting, people that are broken. That's the people that Jesus was always attracted to. Jesus was always helping those who are hurting, those who are broken hearted. And God is near those. And he uses us. You know, the scriptures say, I'll be a father to the fatherless. Who's going to do that? You and I are going to do that. We're going to be a father to the fatherless when we serve with Young Life or YMCA or be a boys little league baseball coach. That's the model that we need to practice in the world.

[00:18:54] Again, that's the section on unity. Let's get to the one on diversity. Because what it means to be a man does vary from culture to culture. Absolutely. And as an individual that I know also speaks on pastoral ministries and missions and things like that, you have a whole section to remind us that this isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all, is it? That's right. And I was in Kenya and they were gathering sticks and firewood. And I'm from Kansas. I grew up in Kansas. Oh, I'll go help. And they said, no, no, no, no. Only the women do that.

[00:19:24] And I thought, well, why? Well, that's a part of the home. That's part of, they're preparing the meal. They're cooking indoors. And they said, if you go over there, you'll be considered a woman. And I'm there showing the Jesus film with Campus Crusade for Christ. So I was shocked. But that's their cultural marker. Right. There's other identities where, you know, other parts of the world, a male would be in a chef. And so here you have these two polar opposites. The male is the best chef in the whole town.

[00:19:51] And in Kenya, if you're over there cooking or gathering the sticks for the fire, you're considered. So we want to get at what does scripture say about gender? Not what does culture say about gender, but what does scripture say about gender? And there are some absolutes in scripture, but not very many. And we have to be careful about labeling someone according to culture. We'll come back and get into that in a little more detail. But as we're going to a break, let me just mention that we're coming to the end of our fiscal year.

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[00:22:54] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again, we're talking about the book, A Courageous Identity.

[00:23:20] In studio with me today, Dr. Paul Pettit, Accepting the Call of Christ-Centered Masculinity. It's a small group study for men. I might just mention at the end of every chapter, there's usually some definitions and always at least five discussion questions. So this is plug and play. If you wanted to get a copy or multiple copies, you could get started right away. If you'd like to have Paul come and speak to your group and kick it off, I think he'd be open to that.

[00:23:47] And we've been talking, Paul, of course, about unity and diversity, but one other chapter on individuality. Of course, individuals are different. And each one of us, though we're created in the image of God, we are also different from one another. They're different gifts and callings. But also, you go from preaching to meddling at one point. And you start talking about how we handle our money.

[00:24:11] And that, I think, is also a great indicator sometimes of your commitment and your spirituality, isn't it? That's right. A lot of times when you meet another man, you say, oh, I'm Paul. But the second thing you say is, what do you do? And men measure themselves on the size of their house or the car they drive. But a stewardship is what we're talking about. How are you using your money to glorify God? Oftentimes, the man is wanting to maybe steward the money in the home. So individuality is also, I need to be with other brothers in Christ.

[00:24:40] I don't need to live the Christian life alone. Isolated individualism can be dangerous if we're always isolated as individuals. We're a Christian man, but we need to be with brothers in Christ. Get good advice on stewardship and money and how do we handle our finances. We want to get in a group with other men and get good advice. And that's why I think the study group idea is so good because a minute ago we talked about Fatherless America, David Blankenhorn. Yeah.

[00:25:07] Well, there are many books that come out on the friendless American male. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, one individual who did research at Yale University, Daniel Levinson, went out and tried to figure out why men oftentimes have a midlife crisis. And they asked lots of questions. But one of the interesting ones, Paul, was do you have a close friend like you did when you were growing up? Mm-hmm. And most men said, no. Why should I?

[00:25:34] We sort of almost buy into the idea that, okay, we can be buddies when we're playing in the neighborhood. We can certainly be with a team. But then I go out into the world. And when I go out into the world, you know, it's the Lone Ranger. Right. And, of course, always jokingly say, well, even Lone Ranger had Tonto, right? That's right. You know, and there's a sense in which sometimes we don't have good, positive role models of the need for accountability and for us to actually work together.

[00:26:02] North American Christianity oftentimes is too individualistic. Yes. And so I appreciate the fact that you point that out as well. Mm-hmm. But before we get into the next section, there was a section, sometimes it's also easier to help people to see it visually, but you have a life map exercise. Yeah. So there's a sense as you're going through the book, I might just say to our listeners, that you go through a chapter and then every once in a while there's an opportunity to stop and pause.

[00:26:28] And this is one of the places where you can stop and pause the life map exercise, accepting the call and looking back. Yeah. Can you explain that? Well, all of us as men need to look back and take inventory. You know, the unexamined life is not worth living. And who have been the men that have impacted me the most? Stop and think about that for good or for ill. I've had students in one of my men's ministry courses write a paper on that, and you'd be shocked at the answer. Some positive, some negative.

[00:26:54] I had a guy recently, obviously I never give any names or what year this was, but a guy said, I was 16 years old the first time my father introduced me to drugs. Unbelievable. Or we've had guys that said I had a football coach, but he was physically abusive. Unbelievable. And then others who said, I had a youth pastor who changed my life, who showed me Jesus Christ, who taught me the Bible. Or I had a mentor who took me on a missions trip and opened up my eyes to the world.

[00:27:23] So we need to do that. We need to step back and think about, why did I decide to go to that university? What job did I decide to do? And think through how has my life led up to this point? And how has God used the men in my life to mentor me and change me? Well, again, that's part of that life map. And really, we could preach on that for an entire hour. Yeah. But I'm going to keep it moving because section three, how do Christ-centered men live?

[00:27:48] And this really breaks it down into looking at a number of key issues here. Spiritual habits, mental habits, and physical habits. What about the spiritual habits? Because in some respects, men tend to be so busy, they sometimes are more likely to neglect the spiritual. That's right. And women oftentimes do a better job at this. A lot of women's Bible studies, a lot of women's retreats. But men don't have to feel this legalism. That's what I'd like to emphasize. Right.

[00:28:16] They feel like, well, you had devotions three days in a row, but then you blew it. You missed a day. And so men maybe need smaller bites, maybe listening to Christian radio on the way to work, maybe reading some scriptures or listening to some scripture audio or being in a men's small group. So they don't have to be legalistic and think it's a perfection. But is it a growth? Is it an effective Christianity? Well, you know, I have some just great breakouts that I've mentioned already in terms of charts.

[00:28:43] But you also have like spiritual habits to incorporate in your routine. This goes on for the better part of a page. So you might say, oh, I hadn't thought about doing that or hadn't thought about doing that. I hadn't thought about doing that. So there's just a lot of very practical material. And that comes from your years of experience of really teaching about spiritual formation. That's right. You know, you think about exercising. I've been trying to exercise lately like all of us have. And what would it be like if I just said, well, this is what I'm going to do on August 15th. I'm going to lift weights for 12 hours.

[00:29:11] I'm just going to lift weights like crazy. Or would it be better to say, you know, every Monday morning I'm going to go for a long walk. Every Monday morning I'm going to lift weights. Obviously, we would say the one time event is not what we're looking for. It's the habits. It's the daily routines. It's the weekly routines. So for men, that challenge is are you attending worship or are you reading the Bible? And not to be legalistic about it. That's the problem. A lot of people come down on, well, I tried that, but it didn't work. Brush yourself off.

[00:29:41] Get back up and just do something that clicks. Make it organic. But how is God molding me and shaping me and drawing me closer to himself? Well, again, we've talked about the spiritual habits. And then you talk about mental habits. But that's when you list the seven promises of a promise keeper committed to honor Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience in God's word. Some people might think of that as being spiritual, and it is.

[00:30:06] But for those of us that either were at promise keeper events, we used to even do broadcast from promise keeper events. Those promises are, again, the kind of daily habits. And if you can begin to develop those habits, they become a routine. They really become part of your life, don't they? That's right. And that's also where a couple of buddies come in. Hey, how are you doing in this area? Mm-hmm. You know, let's go through some of these and let's challenge each other on this.

[00:30:32] And that last question I remember from promise keepers was always, did you just lie to me? Wow. Wow. But the goal, too, now for promise keepers is moving from the stadiums to the circles. Right. And so this is the move that we're seeing today. A lot of small groups, a lot of guys, maybe a Friday morning breakfast like at Prestonwood or a lunch group or even just a hunting group, a fishing group. But using something like a curriculum or a study to get into that.

[00:30:59] So moving from the stadiums to the small circles is also an effective way for men to get with other men and improve in their walk with Christ. And we've done this on this program a couple of times because we've talked about having a feast where you go hunting. That's right. Of course, you are very familiar with some people that have been doing that over the years. Larry Moyer. Yeah. The beast. Yeah. Yeah. He loves to do that. Or, of course, we have some others that have gone to NASCAR races or they're going to sport. Yeah.

[00:31:27] Sometimes getting men involved in another activity, that's another way to work through some of those ideas. And so that is the case. But I'll keep this moving because you also have physical habits. We've talked about spiritual habits, mental habits. Your heart, mind and hands are deeply connected. We are spiritual, mental and physical beings. And again, you give us a list of qualifications, which we find in First Timothy three.

[00:31:54] And our good friend Gene gets he's been here many times before says, if you look at the qualification for an elder, of course, he then wrote a book called Measure of a Man. Yeah, that's right. That's a way to evaluate yourself, whether you're going to be in spiritual leadership or not. Yeah. And it's amazing how many of those have to do with the physical or even the social. And we sometimes neglect that if we're really thinking that we're going to be overly spiritual. In the Hebrew mindset, they think of the whole person, the shalom, the whole body.

[00:32:22] And so in North America, we bifurcate that. Oh, there's the soul that my body, what does my body have to do with my walk with Christ? You know, but God and Jesus look at us as a whole person. So everything we do, the everything we whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, let it come under the lordship of Christ. So it doesn't have to be just I read the Bible 24 hours a day. But my what do I eat? What do I watch? What do I consume in my media? So everything we do begins to mold us and shape us.

[00:32:51] And God is drawing us to himself. So he's encouraging us in these healthy patterns as you walk by the way and as you drive and do carpool and as everything else. We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we will look at three sections. But there is a fourth section about service. And so we will wind that down as well. If you just joined us, we've been talking with Dr. Paul Pettit. A book is entitled A Courageous Identity Accepting the Call of Christ Centered Masculinity.

[00:33:17] It is a book that I think you can be able to find in your local bookstore published by Whitaker House. But if not, we have a link there. If you'd like to connect up with him, let me encourage you to go to our website, pointofview.net. Next to his picture, we have a link to Facebook and LinkedIn. And you can click on some others. Of course, you can find him at Dallas Theological Seminary. It is a small group study for men. I highly recommend it. And I'm just thrilled he's in studio. We'll come back and talk more with him right after this.

[00:33:59] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again and in studio with us for a few more minutes, Paul Pettit. Dr. Paul Pettit, again, is the author of A Courageous Identity Accepting the Call of Christ-Centered Masculinity. But I thought we would get to the fourth section, which is what do Christ-centered men do? Well, they serve. Serving in worship, serving in the home, serving in the community.

[00:34:25] And in some respects, servant leadership is something that we have certainly talked about so often here on Point of View. It's what you talk about at your seminary. But it does seem to me that this whole idea of servants and multiplication and maybe mentoring and discipleship are really key, aren't they? Yeah. You know, I think a lot of men are wondering, am I going to become a monk? Am I supposed to sit and meditate for eight hours a day now? No.

[00:34:53] You take that knowledge, but it comes out in the hands. The heart and the head lead to actions. So we serve. We find a need in the community. Or we ask the senior pastor or the elder, what can I do here at the church? So men oftentimes, as you know, Kirby, enjoy using their hands. Right. They would rather go do a building project. You know, give me something I can do. Right. Oftentimes, women do a great job of, I speak at men's retreats and it's sometimes unorganized.

[00:35:21] You know, the guys are like, well, I brought, I remember a bunch of guys brought two liter bottles of soda pop, two liter bottles. And another group of guys brought ice. That was it. The two liter bottles of soda pop and the ice. A women's retreat, they have doilies. They have a theme. They have decorations. Men's retreats. But so they're not into so much the fellowship, the organization. They want to do something. Right. Give me something I can do. Give me a missions project. Yeah. Let me serve a single mom.

[00:35:51] Let me serve a widow that needs her fence rebuilt. So oftentimes with the hands, we're going out and doing something and serving. We have the right motives. We're not doing it all for selfishness or to make a lot of money. We're giving of ourselves. And you know what? Guys have told me later, man, I never felt better when I was doing that. I realized I was serving. I was. And they go to bed that night thinking, man, I had a great day today. I gave of myself. I wasn't selfish. It wasn't sinful. And I was out with other guys. We enjoyed it. We had a great time.

[00:36:19] So just because you're a Christian man, it doesn't mean you have to go to seminary or you have to become a bishop or a monk. It means you are living your Christian life out in a real world with real people. And God is going to use you in amazing ways. Let's talk about mentoring, because we've often said that there are three men that you need in your life, an older man like Paul, a friend like Barnabas and a younger man like Timothy. You need to be looking up, looking next to you and down.

[00:36:45] And it does seem to me that what we are finding is the real need to provide mentoring to this next generation, those of us that are a bit older. And there's a sense in which that is another aspect of service. Absolutely. Sometimes when I speak at these men's retreats, there'll be an older group over here and they're going, I wish there were some of these young guys I could pour into. And then I'll talk to some of the younger guys and they'll literally say, yeah, I kind of need an older man in my life to. And I'm thinking, you guys need to get together. We make it organic. Yeah.

[00:37:14] So we need to challenge pastors and church leaders. Get some intergenerational ministry going. Don't just always have the young guys over here. Always have the old guys over here. You know, the Saturday morning breakfast where you make pancakes. Nothing wrong with that. But get some intergenerational ministry going where some older guys are pouring themselves into the younger guys and the younger guys are learning. And, you know, I had Chad Hennings tell me a quick story. He said he had an old dog, a very old dog just laid around the house all day. But what he did, Kirby, was he got a puppy. Yes.

[00:37:44] And that puppy really began to wake up that old dog. And he was shocked that this old dog had so much life left in him. And I think of that story when I think of some of these younger guys need to teach older guys how to use tech, you know, and how to log on and how to use Bluetooth. And some of the older guys really need to talk about how did you stay married 40 years? You know, how did you question? How are you being a grandparent? They can't even envision that. So we need older men, Christian men pouring themselves into younger men.

[00:38:11] And we need younger men stepping up and leading small groups or learning from older men. That's very key. And the Bible says even that older women can disciple and mentor younger women. We don't talk about that very much in our culture. But that's what Paul said. Paul said, let the older women mentor the younger women. And that's countercultural today. Well, again, you mentioned Chad Hennings. He endorses the book. Of course, Bill Hendricks, Mark Yarborough, Jeff Kinley, Bill Butterworth. As a matter of fact, Paul Weaver, virtually everybody that's endorsed the book has been on the program.

[00:38:40] And I'm so thrilled that you can be here. But let's talk about this idea of also ministering and serving in the family and the community. Because it does seem to me that we think that service is only in the church. But a lot more of the service is going to happen out of six out of the seven days. Yeah. What you're going to do in your home and what you're going to do in your community. That's right. So many young men are pulled in different ways. You've got to go hard at work, but you've got to be a great husband. Are you being a great husband? But are you being a great dad? But are you also spending some free time?

[00:39:10] So these young men feel pulled in so many different directions. But what we're saying is the type of person you're becoming is more important because that lives itself out. As Prof Hendricks used to tell me, much more is caught than taught. Yes. You live out the Christian life. Your wife is going to see that. You live out the fact that you're chasing after Jesus Christ. Your young son or daughter is going to notice that. So it's not so much that we have to say, well, one seventh of my time, I'll do this. Two sevenths of my time, I'll do this. Three.

[00:39:39] You know, it's what type of man are you becoming so that you live this out in a marriage, in a parenting effort, in a work environment? I just mentioned your last chapter deals with a game plan exercise. I'll look forward summoning the courage to live out your identity because, again, these can be intentions, but they're not going to go any further unless you begin to get them on your to-do list, get them on your calendar and the rest.

[00:40:04] And so, in some respects, if somebody wants to move forward or if this is something that you might want to encourage a man in your life, this is a book that you have written with that in mind. And I'm just very impressed that you've been able to put together all sorts of things you've learned all these years teaching spiritual formation and pastoral ministries, put them in a book, which, again, is about 160 pages.

[00:40:29] Again, just a very useful resource and one that I would encourage people if they're involved in any kind of outreach to men, think seriously about getting a copy of the book. Yeah, the game plan is exciting because no team goes into a game without some strategy. And so, as men, we sometimes get in our 50s and 60s and someone says, hey, you better start thinking about retiring. And, you know, I love golf. I like golf. And it gets a bad rap because the one thing people always say is, you're not just going to go play golf for the next 20 years, are you?

[00:40:56] And I say, I might, you know, but I know in my heart, no, I want to be a great. We have four grandkids now. I want to be a great grandfather. Sure. I want to do some missions trips. I want to encourage other men. So if I don't think about that, like you just said, and plan that out and maybe carve out space for that, it doesn't happen. Prof. Hendricks used to tell me this guy just blew out his aorta on his way to Sarasota. You know, he just was going to go lay on the beach the rest of his life.

[00:41:23] God is going to use us in our 70s, our 80s, our 90s to be a great influence on our next generation. So what's your game plan, though? What's your strategy? What's your game plan? And let's talk about that and maybe even write it out. So, again, if you want to contact Paul Pettit, we have a link to him on the website. And, again, you can find some of the links that we've provided there. If you'd like to find out more about the book, A Courageous Identity, as I mentioned at the outset, it just came out. So you may be able to find it in your local bookstore, support your local bookstore.

[00:41:52] But if not, we've made it very easy for you to get it in paperback. I also have it in Kindle, as you know. So I have it in both versions. And, again, it is just a delight to have you in the studio. Let's do this again. Great to be here, Kirby. Thank you. And, again, always fun when you bring some of the students to watch. We've got a few people watching today, but nothing like when you bring the whole crowd in.

[00:42:11] And so if you find yourself saying, I'd like to know more about this book, I'd like to listen to it again, you can go to the website and certainly watch it or listen to it again or pass it on to others that may want to hear that. But most importantly, as you go to the website, don't forget, as you scroll down, you will see a section that says Restoring America's Godly Heritage. There's a place where, as we are coming to fiscal year end, we are in need of your financial support. We do have a match on the table.

[00:42:41] I can see from the numbers, and I'll talk about that a little bit more next hour, we have had many of you take advantage of that. But there is still match money available. So if you've been waiting to support Point of View and would like to have it doubled, please encourage you to go to the website pointofview.net. Or during the break, perfect time to call. We'll talk to one of our staff, 800-347-5151. 1-800-347-5151.

[00:43:09] We'll come back with some news a little bit later with Robert Knight. All that coming up right after this. To pass the torture freedom to the next generation, the first thing we need to do is restore America's moral character. The founders knew that people need checks and balances, and that is why our federal government has three branches. But what about internal checks and balances?

[00:43:34] Human beings need an internal sense of accountability to something greater than themselves. To someone who motivates them to respect the law and love their neighbors. And that's why we believe that America needs to recover and restore biblical values.

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