Point of View June 17, 2026: The Round Table

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View Radio Talk Show. And now, Liberty McArtor. Welcome to Point of View. It's the Round Table edition and I am very excited for it as always. The Round Table is just always one of my favorite times on Point of View and I hope that that's true for you as well.

[00:00:31] Today we are going to be covering a myriad of topics as usual, trying to get to them all and hopefully bring some insight to social issues. We're going to be covering some really cool historical facts today and talk about Christians and technology and family and so much more. So again, thanks for being with us and let me introduce my co-host for the first hour, Stephen Mosley, who you know well as a member of our Round Table here.

[00:00:55] He's a college administrator, teacher, school choice advocate and evangelical outreach chair for Fairfax GOP in Virginia. Stephen, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for having me. And Richard Lim, of course, is host of this American President podcast and always brings that historical perspective to our Round Table, which I love so much. Richard, thanks for being here. Always good to be here. All right.

[00:01:19] So let's dig into some of these issues. And as a reminder, you can always listen via podcast later on or go back. And if you want to read what we've talked about, you can do that at the website. But Stephen, you sent me this and I've seen some articles addressing it because, of course, we are in June, which a big portion of the country considers to be Pride Month. And what we're seeing is really interesting. It's actually a little bit of pushback.

[00:01:44] But this is from Gallup and it says U.S. support for LGBTQ plus issues remains down from the peak. So I'm going to just mention a few of these numbers and then maybe we can discuss this a little bit and try to figure out why we're seeing this trend.

[00:01:59] So really what happened is in the earlier 2000s or 2020s, sorry, in 2022 and 2023, that was the peak of Americans, Democrats and Republicans and independents supporting same sex marriage and saying that gay and lesbian relationships were moral. Well, the peak has gone down. Support for legal same sex marriage is down six points from its high in 2022 and 2023.

[00:02:27] 62 percent of viewing gay and lesbian relationships as moral is actually at its lowest since 2016. And if you'll remember, that's right after Obergefell was decided. And the perceived morality of changing one's gender is down eight points since 2021. So, Stephen, I'll start with you since you sent me this topic. Why do you think we are seeing this? Of course, the biggest drops in approval that we're seeing are among Republicans and independents.

[00:02:55] I don't think Democrats has really changed. But those are still some considerable drops in how people view LGBT issues. I think it's a couple of things. I think one of the big things is you're seeing Republicans like Ron DeSantis and other governors stand for marriage. And faith and freedom is a big theme in the Republican Party. But now it's actually a theme that they're actually living by.

[00:03:20] When you see Governor DeSantis and a couple others say, hey, this month is no longer LGBTQ plus month. It's now faith month. And we're going to focus on fathers and the nuclear family. That is huge. Because you always sit at home. You wonder, like, does anyone else feel like me? Does anyone else speak like me? And you see senators like Josh Hawley, who has done a magnificent job on all the social conservative issues. So you start to see leadership. I think leadership is one of the huge ones.

[00:03:49] The second one is you're starting to see people really take their faith seriously. And when you see Christians start to take their faith seriously, these views have to change. I've been teaching a biblical worldview class for the last few years. And we look at these numbers each year. And the last couple of years, it's like, look, the numbers are starting to change. But it's also because of how the LGBTQ mafia has impacted society. What they have done is they have done persecution to Christians and to others.

[00:04:19] And that persecution is like people go, you know what? I don't want boys and girls' bathrooms, sports teams, overnight accommodations. And them going too far, that pendulum swinging too far is what made people come back and say, you know what? Let's relook at our values again. And I think that is one of the huge reasons why you're starting to see people say we need to stand for biblical marriage. Yeah. Yeah, those are good insights, Stephen. Richard, you always have the long view, of course, as a historian.

[00:04:43] But one of the things that a lot of social conservatives and Christians certainly warned about with the Obergefell case is that it would kind of begin a slippery slope toward a lot of other issues like the transgender movement, even among children that we've seen. And so do you think that maybe that has come true and that's why we're seeing pushback? Or do you have another take on this? Yes. You know, it kind of is like that old adage, well, there's good news and there's bad news.

[00:05:11] The good news is, as you said, there has been a reaction to overreach. And I think that Americans can instinctually detect something like that. You know, it's a good thing that we're seeing a trend away from this harmful ideology, one that affirms sin, one that is clearly brought about increased levels of self-harm, depression and suicide, to say nothing of mocking God's design.

[00:05:38] The bad news, I think, is that support for the movement, the LGBTQ movement, was so high in the first place that majorities support the concept that you inherently have a right as a human to determine your own gender or that you should have sexual relationships outside of God's design and the idea that that's a good thing for society.

[00:06:01] That ideology is fundamentally incompatible with the American experiment, which is based on biblical truths that our rights come from God, that they don't come from our desires or the latest fads. And I think the fact that there has been significant support even among Republicans for this should wake Christian conservatives up to the work that we have left to do. We need to talk about what freedom is and what it is based on and what is conducive to real freedom.

[00:06:30] We need to talk about how absolute freedom, this idea that it doesn't matter what I do in my private life, it leads to worse outcomes for everybody and harms freedom for everybody. Yeah, that is so important. Yes, absolutely. That's so important, Richard, for us to understand. And as Christians, we really do need to be the voice of clarity on this because I think so many people today, even people who are well-meaning and maybe who truly are believers in their hearts,

[00:06:59] they have not been formed by a biblical worldview, which is even when you mentioned that you're teaching that class. That is so great because that helps us to apply God's word to all of the issues around us that we see. And freedom is not licensed to just do whatever every man or woman sees right in their own eyes. But freedom is the right to live to our potential following God and doing what we ought to do. And yes, that is what our country depends upon.

[00:07:28] I also I did want to just make this comment that really, I mean, you have to hand it to people who stood strong and have stood strong on this issue, even when they have been canceled, when they have been fired from jobs. We talk about that all the time with, you know, ADF and First Liberty and lawyers from those organizations here on Point of View,

[00:07:52] how they are defending people who have literally lost their livelihoods because they said something as simple as I'm a Christian and I believe in a biblical definition of marriage. Because, yes, like you said, Richard, there are still the majority of people in the United States who do hold an unbiblical view or are willing to affirm that. But we need to just be willing to stand up for the truth, even when it's not popular.

[00:08:16] And we've heard this line in the last few years and last decade, really, and probably even longer that, OK, Republicans need to move away from these social conservative issues because we need to just focus on what's going to win the majority. We're hearing that now with the issue of life. Hey, Roe was overturned. Leave it to the states. Stop talking about it. But what happens when we don't stop talking about it? Maybe we can actually see change. So that's an encouragement for us to remember. And we'll be right back after this short break.

[00:09:00] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. A book coming out in August asked an important question. What if Jesus is right? Doug Grotice and Lindsay Miedenwald evaluated the inaccurate claims made about Jesus. This is the sort of book that you can hand to a seeker or someone who has accepted one of the many false views about Jesus. One false claim is the belief that Jesus was only a great moral teacher.

[00:09:26] The discussion leads to the option of whether Jesus is a legend, liar, lunatic, or lord. Another false claim is the belief that Jesus is radically inclusive. Yes, Jesus was willing to sit with all kind of sinners, including tax collectors and prostitutes, he showed compassion towards outcasts such as lepers and others considered unclean. But that does not mean he was indifferent to sexual immorality and other sins. A third false claim is that Jesus wants us always to be healthy and prosperous.

[00:09:54] That chapter addresses the issue of positive thinking and the prosperity gospel. They also include a chapter on the many modern examples of a fake Jesus. This includes the Jesus, the universal Christ, Jesus the sage, Jesus the avatar, Jesus the mere prophet, and Jesus the created being. These discussions deal with various religions and cultures that have redefined Jesus into their theology. They conclude by an examination of the claims that Jesus made about himself.

[00:10:23] He is the I am and claims that the new kingdom is at hand. He claims authority to forgive sins and claims to know the future. Final chapters call for us to exercise discernment, especially when so many false views are promoted in the media and in our culture. This book will be a great resource as you talk to your friends, neighbors, and coworkers. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:50] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. So just to follow up on what we were talking about a minute ago, which is Gallup poll numbers showing that support for LGBTQ issues continues to go down,

[00:11:18] especially among Republicans and independents. One organization that I think might be helping in this regard is Them Before Us. I've mentioned them before, but it is a coalition of people who are standing up for children's rights. And this leads into our next topic because, unfortunately, and I'm not trying to speak in a, you know, cast a blanket over every single individual in any way,

[00:11:43] but same-sex marriage has opened the door to continue to see children in our society as just commodities that can be really created and brought into a family outside of the traditional means of natural family that God ordained or through loving adoption by a mother and father.

[00:12:07] And so what Them Before Us does is focus on the rights of children to have a mother and father and to put their rights before adults' desires. So I did want to mention that because it's just one area of child exploitation that we have seen. But another area is trafficking, and this is a huge issue, and it is something that often flies under the radar. A lot of people aren't aware of just how bad human trafficking is in the United States.

[00:12:36] And, of course, open borders has not helped that in the past. And I know just from talking with people in law enforcement that right now with the U.S. hosting the World Cup, they are expecting a lot more trafficking to take place, unfortunately. And so law enforcement is on alert, so I think it's a great time for this law to come into effect. So this is an article from The Hill.

[00:13:01] But earlier this month, President Trump signed a nearly $70 billion measure into law that adds additional funds to ICE, to Border Patrol, to DHS, Department of Homeland Security, to be able to investigate child exploitation and trafficking.

[00:13:22] In fact, the package includes over $100 million for DHS to hire 200 new child exploitation investigators and analysts. Currently, that department only has seven specialists dedicated to this. So, I mean, Richard, I think this is super important. I'm hoping that it will raise awareness. But most importantly, I hope that it will actually make our government agencies more effective

[00:13:49] in rescuing children from trafficking and exploitation in the United States. Absolutely. If you believe that children are infinitely precious to God, then protecting them from exploitation is one of the most fundamental obligations of society. As Christians, we know that the government was put on earth largely by God, largely to restrain evil and protect the innocent. That's one of the reasons government exists in the first place.

[00:14:18] I think what's striking about the numbers in this report is how many victims still haven't even been identified. And I think that's a sobering reminder that there are real children behind these statistics. And I think it's also something to note that, you know, it's a great thing that we're seeing more investigators and stronger enforcement. But that's just part of the answer. Child exploitation doesn't come out of nowhere.

[00:14:44] It reflects a broader, you know, the broader moral culture in our country. Law enforcement can rescue victims. They can punish criminals. But we know the things that lead to a strong society, strong families, you know, a shared moral culture rooted in biblical truth, communities that value children. And that's what's going to prevent these things happening, these tragedies from happening in the first place. So with that said, it's a wonderful, encouraging step.

[00:15:14] And one I think we should support as Christians, but also one that we know is just part of that fight. Yeah, that's so true. If you don't address those root issues, that moral foundation, then it's just it's like trying to put a Band-Aid on a floodgate that's open and try to keep sin in check. So that's so true.

[00:15:37] So, Stephen, I think back to ancient times and whether it was infant exposure or abortion or other areas of child exploitation, Christians were the ones that were leading the charge to actually tell their culture that children were valuable. And I think about that today and how Christians and many of them are, but many more need to be that voice to speak up for children.

[00:16:07] Without question. And, you know, I think about this issue. It reminds me of when I grew up in the 90s and growing up in the 90s, late 80s into 90s. You remember when there was a show called America's Most Wanted? And it was this idea that, you know, kids were getting kidnapped, just randomly off the street. And you're like, well, that doesn't happen in my neighborhood. That was the idea we thought back then. And then when this show came out, it realized that it didn't matter if you're in a big city, small town, anywhere that this is happening.

[00:16:38] I knew this issue very similarly. I remember when this became an issue where people started to talk about, people started to march about. And I remember thinking, like, you know, like people in 80s, like, well, that only happens over there, right? It doesn't happen where I live. What you realize when you start researching this issue is that a sex trafficker or somebody who is engaged in behaviors that lead up to this could be anyone. It could be a teacher. It could be a judge.

[00:17:08] It could be a pimp on the street. It could be anyone. And that it is our responsibility as a community to talk about practices, behaviors, laws, et cetera, to create a safe place for the most vulnerable. In this context, the most vulnerable are children and women. You know, and it happens to men as well. But these are the people who are the most vulnerable to this.

[00:17:31] I'm so thankful for the Trump administration, Josh Hawley, and Tim Tebow to get this bill to be able to hire 200 more analysts. And I want your audience to think about this. Prior to this point, they had seven full-time workers. That's not even one for every state. This is a big issue. And I'm glad that they're putting money behind the talk. Such a great thing. Yeah. And think about if Senator Hawley hadn't pushed for this.

[00:17:59] I mean, for how long was the federal government okay with there being seven people in DHS dedicated to investigating child exploitation? And we know from just the past several years, we've talked about this before, how many children came across the border being trafficked that they had not even found or identified or they didn't know where they were. And, yeah, so it's such a big issue.

[00:18:29] And so I know that we need to have that multi-pronged approach. So obviously this is huge at the federal level. But I'd love to hear, Stephen, I know that this is something that is close to your heart. And also I think Katrina is an advocate in this area as well. I immediately think of online because that's where so many predators do connect or make that first connection with children, with minors.

[00:18:58] And so parents need to be aware of that. And that's why talking about digital safety is so important. But what are other things that people need to be aware of or can do in their communities to try to tackle this issue in as many ways as possible? Yeah, I would say my wife, Katrina, is really the expert on that topic. I would encourage you to bring her on again and have her really discuss it. No one knows the topic better than her.

[00:19:21] I would say, first off, as Christians, what we need to do is to make sure that we are discipling our young men on this area. Because really the issue is this is a men problem when it comes to exploitation. And so we need to make sure that as we're discipling the generation behind us that they realize that the behaviors that lead to this behavior, whether it's purchasing people, we call that prostitution in our country, that that's not acceptable.

[00:19:50] Whether it is saying no to pornography, saying no to exploitation of any form. That's where it really starts. Because you've got to remember, this is a sin that starts in the heart and then comes outward. Because if we can stop that here at home, then you can have people who are saying, I'm not going to purchase it. But part of the issue, and part of the issue is that it's a profitable market. You know, OnlyFans is a profitable market. Sex trafficking is a profitable market.

[00:20:20] If you stop paying for it, that will decrease the market. If you start saying this is wrong, that will decrease the market. If you start putting in laws that say, hey, we're going to prosecute people who are taking images of young kids and putting them online so that they can't hide behind, what is it, Section 230? You know, so they can't hide behind that. If you start punishing people for doing these evil things, out of nowhere, poof, they stop doing it. Because there's a consequence to this.

[00:20:50] Not only it's sinful behavior, it's illegal. Trafficking is illegal. And so there's loopholes around it. We as a culture have to get around those loopholes or close those loopholes, I should say. But we also have to start at home and start in our churches. Yeah, so wise, Stephen. Yes, I so appreciate Patrina's voice on this and look forward to talking to her about that more in the future. But going back to what Richard said, too, at the beginning is we have to teach that moral foundation.

[00:21:16] And so when we are discipling, like you said, Stephen, we've got to tell people that we're made in the image of God, every single one, and defend human dignity. There are so many areas that that applies to. So consider this. We'll be right back after a short break. The Bible tells us not to worry. And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:21:43] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry. God gives us a next step. He says we need to pray. But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult. And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation. Each week, you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans,

[00:22:12] along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others. We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand. Will you commit to pray for America? Go to pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe. Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:22:41] Click on the Pray for America banner. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America. Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:06] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Liberty McArtor. All right, Richard, I love that you are bringing up a moment in history that a lot of us are probably not even thinking about. And that is, when was one nation under God added to the Pledge of Allegiance?

[00:23:32] And so you sent this article to me from the Daily Signal talking about President Eisenhower and why he believed under God was vital to America's identity and even victory in the Cold War. So he signed a bill on Flag Day, which was June 14th. We celebrated that or acknowledged that just a couple of days ago. And so he signed a bill officially adding under God to the Pledge of Allegiance on Flag Day of 1954 early on in his presidency.

[00:24:01] Richard, walk us through why this was significant for Eisenhower. Absolutely. So obviously, this took place during his presidency, which was in the early part of the Cold War. And you have to remember, the United States had just not long before that faced the Axis powers in World War II, another set of totalitarian governments. And literally right after that had to face the Soviet Union in the Cold War.

[00:24:28] It was really a scary time because the communists, as they were, you know, as they are now, were very good at infiltration. And it was this titanic struggle between a nation built on Judeo-Christian values and a nation built on the idea that God has no business in this society. That is the fundamental basis of Marxism, of communism.

[00:24:54] And so basically, Eisenhower, because of a movement that sprung up to really make that distinction clear between the Judeo-Christian America and the atheist Soviet Union, he signed this bill into law adding under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. And it really, it affirmed America's biblical heritage going back to the founding.

[00:25:18] The fact that there was little controversy about this at the time affirmed just how strong that tradition was in American history. Our founding father, George Washington, said that the only way we could be a prosperous nation to succeed as a nation is to imitate the divine author. That's a reference to Christ.

[00:25:37] And one thing I want to talk about is the fact that, and I'm fast forwarding years later, one of my favorite things to note historically is the date that the Soviet Union collapsed. I don't know if you know this exact date. I know Kirby has talked about this. But that day that the Soviet Union collapsed, it was in our lifetimes, December 25th, 1991, the day the world celebrates the birth of the Savior.

[00:26:06] It wasn't planned that way. If you read the history, it's just how things played out. It's not like they said, hey, you know, it would be nice to wrap a bow around this collapse of the Soviet Union and do it on Christmas Day. No, the momentum was timed in a way, or it just played out in a way that that's the day the Soviet Union collapsed. And I think we should sit on that for a minute. The Soviet Union, as I said, was the first communist state in the world,

[00:26:32] the first to legally abolish religion itself, the first to say to God, you're not welcome to hear in any form. Not only that, it said, it argued that the concept of God was a fraud perpetrated by the oppressors on the oppressees. And it built this worldly empire, thousands of nuclear weapons, tanks, ships, planes. It had a massive army. And all of it fell, not with a bang, but with a whimper.

[00:27:01] I mean, it literally just collapsed in our lifetime, so much so that I was eight years old at the time. I didn't even notice it. It just kind of happened. And it was because I believe that it was this regime was at war with God, a war that God won. And I just have to say that I am glad that Eisenhower chose to side with God on that one. Wow. Man, Richard, I just I love that. I love that history. And it is so cool.

[00:27:29] This is another quote from the article. This is somebody who actually wrote a biography of Eisenhower, especially focusing on his spirit. Spirituality is that he looked at what was different about America. He believed the Soviet Union's weak link was that it was an atheistic society. And also during World War Two, he had visited concentration camps and he believed that this is where godless society would end up. And so this was personal for him.

[00:27:59] And he he saw and experienced during that time, Stephen, the contrast between a society where maybe not every individual is a Christian, but built on Christian principles versus a society like Richard was describing that completely rejects and outlaws God. But, man, I just a lot of people aren't really receiving that true version of history today, are they? Exactly. And here's the thing.

[00:28:27] Here's why you look at America, the greatest country in the world, in my opinion, and you say, does it have flaws? Absolutely. Absolutely. Did the Christians who started America, did they have flaws? Absolutely. Does that stop it from being a Christian country? No. Because here's the thing. Today, most of our country, 60 plus percent are Christians. We're a Christian country. Do we have flaws? You better believe it. Yep. As Christians, we need to stand.

[00:28:54] One of the things I love about the article is that it talks about Catholics and Protestants standing and saying, hey, you need to add under God to the pledge and the president, I thank them for their activism. And so I want to encourage Christians. If you're like, hey, what should I be doing on these issues? You need to get involved. Can getting involved change the world? Absolutely. These Christians got involved.

[00:29:16] And now every place that says the Pledge of Allegiance now has under God to help people understand that our country was founded by Christians. Nine out of 13 colonies, you had to be a Christian to even run for office. And that tradition has continued throughout the decades. And it is still here today. Now, we have a lot of work to do. We need to repent. One of the things I really was encouraged with about a month ago here in the D.C. metro area, there was Rededicate 250.

[00:29:46] And it was covered by the media. Thankful to see Fox and a couple others there. But it was an amazing event of Christians praying, praising God. And one of the best parts was Reverend Franklin Graham, he had a video from him in which he talked about repentance and how we need to turn back to God. And as Christians, that is a message we understand personally because we all had to repent to receive Jesus. But we need to see it corporately in our churches and in our country to turn back to God.

[00:30:16] And what a great thing for Christians to get involved civically to help turn this country back to God. Yeah. So I listened to that clip after the event, Stephen. And I, too, was struck because it was a very patriotic event. And I think that we have to be really careful because as conservatives, a lot of times there's a concern that, man, you know, the other side, all they want to do is talk down on America.

[00:30:40] And then we can avoid that vital repentance, which is not un-American, but saying it is acknowledging the foundation that we all appreciate, which is under God. And this is another quote from the article. An atheistic American is a contradiction in terms. If you deny the Christian ethic, you fall short of the ideal American ideal of life.

[00:31:05] I think that is so important for us to realize because, obviously, I mean, religious freedom is the first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment. So that is vital and integral to who we are as a nation. But you can have religious freedom and you can do what the founders did and defend the right of people to worship God according to their own conscience or choose not to.

[00:31:29] But I think what you can't do and what so many people are trying to do today is deny where our ethic as a nation comes from. And, yes, of course, there have been flaws in our nation's history.

[00:31:41] But to acknowledge the reason that we have had the successes and the blessings that we have as a nation is because we did have a foundation rooted in biblical truth, in imago dei, the equal value of all human life and that our rights come from God and not from government. So this is this is just great history. We talk a lot about, OK, how can we pass this on to the next generation?

[00:32:09] But this is a great place to start. So this is from The Daily Signal written by Fred Lucas. You can find a link at pointofview.net as well. But why Eisenhower believed under God was vital to Americans identity and victory in the Cold War. This is one of the places that we can start, whether with our family members, our kids or friends even, and just sharing this and saying, look, this is why it matters. This is what we mean when we talk about a Christian nation and a Christian foundation.

[00:32:39] A support religious freedom. But this is where it comes from. So, Richard, I'm so glad you shared that. We're about to go to a break, of course, but I do want to just mention something else. I didn't actually put it on the menu, but, Richard, you sent it to me. Maybe we'll mention it just in a minute when we come back, as well as another historical article that I think is going to be really cool to talk about.

[00:32:58] But one of the things that would surely help us all be able to understand our nation's history and those principles and our founding was if more people were able to read. But there is an article in the New York Post. Professors at top California college are forced to radically alter coursework as students struggle to read. So I'm going to get on my soapbox again and say, look, we need to figure this out.

[00:33:24] Make kids read books in school again because they're getting to college and they're not able to read as many books as they used to or hardly read books at all. And they definitely can't read our founding documents or books about what inspired our founders if they can't make it through a book. So read books again. Let's study history. And we're going to talk about it some more when we come back from this break.

[00:33:45] You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported source for truth. So we talked about Flag Day, which kicked the week off.

[00:34:09] And to end the week on Friday, we will be able to celebrate Juneteenth, which has been a holiday in Texas for a long time, I will say, as a native Texan. But became a federal holiday in 2021. And so we have an article posted at pointofview.net that was actually published in 2022 by Reverend Dean Nelson, who has since passed on. But it's such a good explanation, again, of the history of this holiday.

[00:34:37] And, Stephen, what I'm seeing once again, and sometimes this, you know, there's kind of a theme when we're like looking at different articles, but sometimes it just kind of emerges through conversation. And I love when that happens. And there's really been a theme this hour of getting back to our moral foundation as a nation and how that affects so many issues. And that's really why Christians should be excited about Juneteenth and what it represents for America. That's a question.

[00:35:06] And as a former evangelical outreach chair for Fairfax UOP, now part of a coalition of pro-life and sanctity of marriage advocates in Fairfax, I can tell you that I run into this issue all the time, talking to people about this holiday because of the way that it came about nationally. And nationally, it's like, well, if my favorite politician is for it, I'm for it. And when my favorite politician is not for it or someone else does it, I'm against it. And unfortunately, that's what's happened with Juneteenth, right?

[00:35:34] If you remember, President Trump, and I love Reverend Dean Nelson talks about this in his article. God bless him. He was a great man. Loved him. He was one of the best African-American conservative leaders we had in this country. And his family is magnificent. So I'm really thankful for him, the late Dean Nelson writing this article. And he talks about this at the very last paragraph. So please make sure we're just talking about reading. Please make sure you read the article. But President Trump was going to do this. And this was part of his plan.

[00:36:03] And he didn't win the election and his reelection the first time. So Joe Biden gets in. He's like, well, I should do this. You know, at easy points. He does it. And then out of nowhere, the right turned on Juneteenth. It's like, this is a DEI thing. And it's like, no. This has always been American history. I always talk about it. And I'm a Republican. So I always talk about Republican history. I'm like, a Republican has been freed the slaves. We like talk about it so much. What do you think this holiday represents?

[00:36:27] It is the day that the last slave finally got free because they heard that they had been freed, that the Emancipital Proclamation happened. They hadn't gotten message of that. And so it's an American holiday that we celebrate the freedom. And this talks about what we talked about earlier, right, that America is not a perfect country. This was one of our big problems. Slavery. As African American, I'm going to tell you, yeah, that was a big problem. And we fought a war to get rid of it.

[00:36:53] And as a Christian, we should be celebrating these things. And there's so many allusions to our faith. And, of course, the people who were freed, many of them were believers. And they celebrated and they praised God and worshiped Jesus for being free of slavery. And so it's such a magnificent holiday we're celebrating this Friday. Glad it is a holiday, a national holiday. And it is a great holiday to remind us not all of us were free in 1776, but all of us became free on this day, June 19, 1865. Yeah.

[00:37:23] Yeah. So good, Stephen. And this is from the article here. So, again, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. But it wasn't until two years later, June 19, of course, in 1865, that actually the last slaves in Texas heard about that. So the article opens, Richard, with this line, which I think is just so great.

[00:37:46] The American story has always been about pressing forward, not just toward technological progress and material prosperity, but moral excellence as well. And I think this is a great example of Americans living up to the principles upon which our nation was founded, even if at the time of that founding, not all of those principles were upheld. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:11] And, you know, I think that all of us, every American should celebrate the fact that there was a struggle against slavery that brought our nation closer to our founding principles. And we should celebrate those who are involved in that. As you mentioned, President Lincoln, also, you know, so many activists like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, you know, great figures throughout that time.

[00:38:40] I would say to add just a little bit of nuance to it, I think some of the pushback regarding the holiday might be in the spirit in which some people on the left have pushed that holiday. And that idea, because the left looks at America as this country that was founded on fundamentally racist principles, that this idea that, you know, it was an oppressive nation and hypocritical.

[00:39:09] And in a sense, they've tried to frame Juneteenth as the real Independence Day of America. And what I would say to that is that when you look at people like Frederick Douglass, he argued that the Constitution was a profoundly anti-slavery document and essentially that the founders looked forward to the day when slavery would be extinguished. That was part of their vision. They abolished slavery in the Northwestern territories.

[00:39:37] They did that for a reason, because that's how they envisioned that was the model for the rest of the country. And as long as we look at Juneteenth as a continuum of the founding principles, as an inevitable result of where the founding principles, you know, what that would look like in the country. I think that that is the truth of what that holiday represents rather than the left wing interpretation of that holiday.

[00:40:01] You know, Richard, I think that it is important for us to on your point that you make, especially as Christians, to not give in to those efforts to reframe what was fundamentally a Christian issue.

[00:40:18] And I've seen this happen so many times where people will react to really what is a straw man or becomes a straw man of somebody trying to reframe an issue or claim something for their own political agenda. And I think, you know, Stephen, this gives us an opportunity to say, look, standing up for life. That was that was Christians who have done that throughout history, abolishing slavery. That was Christians who spearheaded that throughout history.

[00:40:47] And, yes, it was living up to our founding principles. And instead of giving in, which I'm not saying that you were arguing that, Richard, but to a cultural narrative that is trying to take that over and erase the Christian background behind it, we need to stand up and say, no, we are reclaiming this because this is part of our heritage, both as Christians and Americans. Absolutely. Absolutely. Totally agree. And I would say to the Christian, read the Book of Philemon.

[00:41:14] And if you are convinced or not convinced that, you know, Christianity is totally against slavery, read that book and understand what Paul is telling Amesimus. Treat him as a brother, not a slave. Yeah. So great discussions today. Great historical perspectives as well to help us really, again, remember, and that's been the theme of this hour, where our foundation as a nation comes from.

[00:41:37] And as we approach the 250th anniversary of our nation, it's so important to have these conversations to make sure that we are talking about them, applying critical thinking, passing on these values to the next generation, and looking at the history of our nation and why we are here. And so, again, Stephen, Richard, it's been wonderful talking with both of you. Stephen, where can people find you and follow more of your work? Hi, that's Stephen D. Mosley. And you really can find me this Friday.

[00:42:06] I'll be at a Juneteenth celebration at Tyson's for Douglas Leadership Institute. So I look forward to seeing people there. Wonderful. And, Richard, where can people follow everything that you're involved in? Yeah, they can go to richardmlim.com, or they can check out my podcast, This American President. And you've obviously mentioned this, but have a new book coming out, Refusing a Crown. It's about George Washington and his great decision to leave power. So that's coming out in October.

[00:42:33] Feel free to check it out on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you buy your books. Wonderful. Well, thanks for being on this hour. And we are about to go to a break, but thanks for being with us on the roundtable today. And don't go anywhere, because when we come back, we will have another hour of discussion talking about what should we teach students? I often say we shouldn't just teach people what to think, but we should teach them how to think. But does teaching students how to think involve teaching them what to think as well?

[00:43:02] We're going to talk about that from a Christian perspective. Also, how to become a person again after smartphones have rotted your brain? That's going to be a fascinating discussion. And whether or not pastors are using AI? Well, they are. We'll talk about it when we get back. America's founders called this nation an experiment. 250 years later, the question for us is, did the experiment work? Well, let's look at the history.

[00:43:29] Though not perfect, America has continued moving toward the promise of the Declaration that all men are created equal. Our nation has enjoyed amazing success and providential survival. So has the experiment succeeded? Well, yes, but will it succeed going forward? That depends on you.

[00:43:54] At Point of View, we know the American experiment owes its success to the biblical values upon which it was founded. Join Point of View this month as we work to restore a biblical worldview in American culture. Your gift will be doubled when you give by June 30th. Call or click today at pointofview.net and 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:23] That's pointofview.net and 800-347-5151. Point of View will continue after this. Across America, live. This is Point of View.

[00:44:59] And now, Liberty McCartney. All right, welcome back to the Roundtable. Super excited to introduce my co-hosts for this hour. They are in studio with me and actually personal friends of mine, Jonathan Buchanan and Sarah Buchanan. Thank you so much for being with us on Point of View today. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having us. All right, so since it's y'all's first time, let me introduce you a little bit. Jonathan is a student at Dallas Theological Seminary working towards his Master's of Theology.

[00:45:28] He graduated from Moody Bible Institute with a degree in communications and has worked in his home church starting in leading young adult ministry. Currently works in a couple of startups and is passionate about the intersection of theology, spiritual formation, and technology. And we will definitely be talking about all of those things today and how they intersect. So it's going to be great to have you on for this hour. Sarah is a graduate of John Brown University with a major in graphic design.

[00:45:54] She's also a student at Dallas Theological Seminary working towards a Master's in Media Arts and Worship. Sarah is a talented artist who enjoys using art to help tell people's stories and point people towards truth and beauty in the world. I love that, Sarah. So, and if you guys who are listening didn't pick this up from their last names, they are married. So I don't know if I've actually had a married couple and studio on the roundtable at the same time before. So this is fun. Nice. Yeah.

[00:46:24] What an honor. Yeah, it's an honor for me for you guys to be in here again. Again, so let's jump into some of these topics. I'm really interested to get y'all's take on this. So this was reported in World. And again, you can follow along at pointofview.net and read the articles that we're mentioning today. But only one in ten pastors don't use AI at all, according to a new survey from the Barna Group. So only 13% of pastors aren't using artificial intelligence at all.

[00:46:52] How are those who are using it using it? Well, I'm going to mention some of the stats here from the report and then I'll get y'all's take on it. Roughly 50% of pastors say they use it for brainstorming or idea generation. About 37% use it for visual aids and graphic design. About 36% use it for researching biblical and theological topics.

[00:47:17] Approximately 34% use it for scheduling, emails, document preparation, drafting small group questions, and those administrative tasks. So obviously we've talked about AI a lot on Point of View on the roundtable. And it really is invading or bolstering every area of life, depending on your opinion. But Jonathan, let me start with you. What's your take on this? Obviously you're involved in ministry.

[00:47:44] And so what do you think that so few pastors are actually not using AI in any part of their ministry? I'd be very curious and I wanted to research a little bit more on the questions Barna was actually asking. Because I think there can be a place that I appreciate AI in my research. Because when you research something, it's like a massive Dewey Decimal system that I appreciate. Hey, where did Augustine talk about redemption? Give me the quote.

[00:48:12] And then I can go actually look that up in Logos or something like that and find that use. And so that's a use of AI, but that's very different than please tell me what Augustine thought about redemption, period. And so I'd like a little bit more clarity on this. But when you start looking at pastors utilizing AI for things that used to be done by elders, by the congregation, by community, by fellowship, by other people,

[00:48:38] there are things that are changing, potentially not for the better inside of church community and the pastors as their own spiritual formation as they're formed by the Holy Spirit. That can change and that can be dangerous as we get lazy with our faith in some ways. Yeah. And I want to come back to that a little bit. And I think some of the other topics that we have will allow us to continue that conversation too, just the community aspect of it. But Sarah, I mean, feel free to comment on any aspect of this.

[00:49:07] But as somebody who is an artist, I know that that's one area where I've even heard or seen ministries say, oh, well, it's just going to be so much cheaper if we can just use AI. And a lot of times small churches and ministries are strapped for resources. But, I mean, as you understand, creation is a part of how we reflect God. So I'm curious to see what you think of that use. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.

[00:49:39] Slightly concerning, there's a part in the article where it talks about like the amount of pastors who use AI has doubled since 2024. So I have a lot of questions about that, about how they're using it. But I think, yeah, as an artist, I would be concerned because when you make something, when you put something together, whether that is like in writing or visual arts, a lot happens to you in the process.

[00:50:07] So I would be concerned for pastors, what they're missing out in the process, how the Lord is shaping them. Yeah, that's so good. I think maybe it is us being influenced by the world a little bit where we're focused on the final product and not the formation. And so this is where I kind of question, because everyone values different things.

[00:50:33] Somebody who's not really an artist and maybe they're just like, oh, I just need a slide. They're not thinking about the formation of the artist or maybe even some of those more menial tasks. So, I mean, whoever wants to jump in. But what what does it say about us that even in the church, we kind of are viewing ministry as a product to be delivered instead of something that is like really living in?

[00:51:05] I can jump in on that if you go. OK, cool. Yes, that is in my business working with startups. One of the things we talk about a lot is the work works on you more than you work on the work. Yeah. And in this formation of individuals as we work, a lot of times what we're doing is contracting formation of the body of Christ out to technology when we utilize it in so many ways.

[00:51:28] So instead of saying, OK, let me let me pull Sarah in and have her design something for young adult ministry and said, let me go just get the result that I want immediately. I leave the person behind in their ability to worship God through creating things that are beautiful. And I also don't challenge them to think through processes and get better in their art and their skills. And I start focusing more on results and spiritual formation.

[00:51:53] This side of heaven is all about the development as a person, not just the end result. We're not as Christians so much worried with the end result. If the heart isn't right in the process, if the person isn't formed in the process, what does it matter if you gain the world, if you get the end result, but you lose your soul in the process? Well, it's not. And so we become lazy by not helping our body develop with, oh, go plan a Bible study.

[00:52:20] No, let me just generate something on chat GPT. So I think that the development of discipleship can quickly go out when you start looking at just final results. Yeah, but final results should include all of the people growing in the process. Yeah, I love that. We're about to come to a break and then we'll discuss this a little bit more.

[00:52:41] But it really reminds me of what the Bible says about iron sharpening iron and, again, the church being the body of Christ and how we all have a part to play. And so whether you are a gifted artist or you are gifted in the administrative side of things or you're the one that's actually bringing the message or planning the Bible study, you need everybody.

[00:53:06] And so I really loved what you said a minute ago, Jonathan, about how we can, if we're not careful, use something that seems like a super efficient tool, actually pulls us away from those other members of the body. And we're not really working together and sharpening each other like we should. But anyways, we'll come back after this short break. So stay with us right here on Point of View.

[00:53:42] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. A book coming out in August asked an important question. What if Jesus is right? Doug Grotice and Lindsay Miedenwald evaluated the inaccurate claims made about Jesus. This is the sort of book that you can hand to a seeker or someone who has accepted one of the many false views about Jesus. One false claim is the belief that Jesus was only a great moral teacher.

[00:54:08] The discussion leads to the option of whether Jesus is a legend, liar, lunatic, or Lord. Another false claim is the belief that Jesus is radically inclusive. Yes, Jesus was willing to sit with all kind of sinners, including tax collectors and prostitutes. He showed compassion towards outcasts, such as lepers and others considered unclean. But that does not mean he was indifferent to sexual immorality and other sins. A third false claim is that Jesus wants us always to be healthy and prosperous.

[00:54:36] That chapter addresses the issue of positive thinking and the prosperity gospel. They also include a chapter on the many modern examples of a fake Jesus. This includes the Jesus, the universal Christ, Jesus the sage, Jesus the avatar, Jesus the mere prophet, and Jesus the created being. These discussions deal with various religions and cultures that have redefined Jesus into their theology. They conclude by an examination of the claims that Jesus made about himself.

[00:55:04] He is the I am and claims that the new kingdom is at hand. He claims authority to forgive sins and claims to know the future. Final chapters call for us to exercise discernment, especially when so many false views are promoted in the media and in our culture. This book will be a great resource as you talk to your friends, neighbors, and co-workers. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:55:31] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. All right, so we're talking about the use of AI in ministry, and I know that this is a topic that so many people have questions on.

[00:55:54] I have had people ask me questions about it in person just as this new tool really comes out. I mean, I call it new even though it's been around for a few years now at least in the terms that we are kind of using it more often as LLMs. And I think there is really a question that a lot of Christians have is we see a new tool and we say, okay, how can we use this for good? How can we use this for ministry?

[00:56:22] And what I've just, even though I don't have all the answers, what I've encouraged people to do is say, well, we do need to evaluate each tool on its merit because not all tools are created equal. And so we might even ask whether we should use it, not simply how we can use it. And so, again, as you mentioned, Sarah, what we do really forms us. And so you're an artist, and this is such an important topic.

[00:56:50] And I think a lot of times we can say, oh, well, that's, you know, that's not as important because it's not the ministry. You know, we're talking about the sermons and, you know, the Bible study and all of these things. But we ignore the fact that God is the originator of beauty.

[00:57:09] And so, anyways, you talked about how when you rob an artist of the opportunity to create something, like, you're actually kind of robbing their opportunity to be formed by that. So I'd just love to hear you talk about that more, like, as an artist, the process of creating something unto the Lord and, like, how you are formed in that process. Yeah, I think you're glorifying the Lord in so many ways as you do that.

[00:57:37] Like, you're bringing, you're taking, for example, if I'm painting, I'm taking an empty canvas and paint and bringing beauty into the world in that way. It's something that doesn't happen super quickly. So it teaches you that good things take time. And you can just enjoy the Lord through that process.

[00:58:02] And then the end result as well for the viewer, I've had people just thank me for being an artist and for bringing art into the world because they think that's just a little glimpse of heaven, a little glimpse of beauty. Wow. That's, that's just beautiful. And it's, it's so important for us to remember that everything we do, we can do unto the Lord.

[00:58:26] And that is a part of what it means to be human, which leads me to the next topic, too, which is, this is an article from the New Atlantis. It's actually a taken, an excerpt from a new book that is coming out, which I'm interested in. It's called The One in the 99. And so the title of this kind of made me laugh. How to become a person after smartphones have rotted your brain.

[00:58:53] Creating something like you're talking about, Sarah, that's a very human act. But even if we are taking AI out of the equation for a minute, before that, we had smartphone addiction. And so this article opens up with a, an anecdote of somebody who became an influencer. She was very famous online and she was seeking that fame.

[00:59:17] And then she realized how empty it was and how it really does destroyed her life. And so she tried to, to go offline. She replaced her smartphone with the dumb phone. And then it was so hard to extricate herself from that because our culture is just so, it's so ingrained in our culture that really that sense of what's online is what matters most. And it's just a generation has been raised that way.

[00:59:45] So a lot of people are really considering how can I pull back from that? How can I recover from a screen addiction? And what I love is that Gen Z is actually leading this in a lot of ways because they were the ones that were raised with it.

[01:00:00] So it goes through three different ways that really the digital addiction has inverted things that are very important to us as humans, including, including things like rites of passage, real, what curiosity and knowledge really mean, diminished agency, and then how we can reclaim all three of those points. So I think we'll go through some of those. But Jonathan, let me come to you.

[01:00:24] Just, you know, feel free to pick out anything from this article that you want to discuss because I'm sure you've got some thoughts on it. I have thoughts on a lot of things. Whether they're good thoughts or not is another thing. Good thoughts, please. No, this is a great article. And I appreciate what you said just previously about the tools that we make shaping us and whether we should use them or not. Unfortunately, in our society, there are things that are so ingrained that we just let them pass the gatekeepers and we didn't actually take time to think about them.

[01:00:54] And so in the article, one of the things I really appreciated that he talked about is there are things that are formative and they've been formative across all of human history. And so it boils down to ritual. The ritual are the things that we do. I oftentimes ask young adults when we're working through in ministry, okay, tell me about your family, but not about them. Don't give me details about what they look like. But what does it mean for you to be part of this family?

[01:01:21] My example is every spouse who came in while my grandparents were alive had to go eat supper with my grandparents and sit through board games. And that's what we did is you were a family member when you joined into this ritual. And we've abandoned a lot of rituals. The meeting around a table and sharing a meal is a ritual and it's formative. And so we've abandoned that.

[01:01:42] And as we replace rituals with the ritual of scrolling and getting instant gratification on a feedback loop because of pretty colors and pixels and sights and sounds, we're robbing our brain of something more memorable. So I love where he's going with that. And his response, how do you start correcting that, is reintroducing solid rituals that have formative foundations in the lives of young people, in the lives of older people, in the lives of parents, in the lives of kids.

[01:02:12] So it's almost like habits, what we do a lot all the time, have an effect on who we become. Shocker. Yes. Wow. But we should have known that. We should have known that all along. Sarah, I'd love to hear any take that you have on this topic, responding to Jonathan or what you enjoyed about this.

[01:02:35] I enjoyed, I really just enjoyed all of the antidotes. Like, how do we fight this? Because it's so hard once you get stuck in it. Um, I work with the youth at our church and every summer when they go on a mission trip, they have to leave their phones at home. Wow. Um, which is so good for them. And they, they don't look forward to it before they go on the trip.

[01:03:02] And then throughout the trip, they're like, wow, I'm enjoying life so much more without this distraction. Um, so I really just enjoyed seeing like, how do we fight this? Like we surround ourselves with community. We pursue knowledge that's worth pursuing with intention. Um, yeah, I thought it was a great article. Yeah, this is something that, uh, was really interesting to me just in terms of how we pursue knowledge.

[01:03:30] So, okay, I'm going to have to ask one of you guys to help me pronounce this Latin term here that Augustine uses, curiositas, maybe. But it's where we get our word curiosity and we view that as a good thing. And yet, when we're seeing that and what it originally means, it's more like distracting knowledge.

[01:03:50] And here's how the article describes it, a restless thirst for knowledge that is not aimed at understanding, but rather satisfying one's own superficial desires. And we often hear things like, oh my goodness, you know, we have all this information just at the touch of our finger. It's in our pockets. But is that really the kind of knowledge or understanding that we should be pursuing? Or is that distracting knowledge? Mm-hmm. Anybody?

[01:04:21] Jump in. What do you guys think about that? Um, I mean, I know that some, I think we talked about this actually not too long ago, just when we were hanging out with some friends, how one of the books that we've read is Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman.

[01:04:40] And he does talk about just how trivial our understanding and knowledge has become because we just are, and he was talking about this when it was just TV was the main media source and not even just the short form videos that we have that are super distracting. But how we just get these little bits of information and we don't really gain true understanding of anything. And so, um, well, I want to keep talking about this. We're about to go to a break.

[01:05:08] The time just flies whenever you're digging in to these topics of conversation that are so important. But I think that a lot of people can really relate to that. How when you are just given so much information so quickly in on social media, on TV, on the Internet when you log on, how many of us actually feel like we truly understand a lot of what's going on in the world?

[01:05:34] And so that's one of the things that he talks about is that's the kind of distracting knowledge that we think we're smarter than we've ever been in human history, but we probably understand less. And he recommends replacing that with something called, well, I'm not going to try to pronounce it, but it's really studying to truly understand something. And I think, again, it's taking that time to really invest in understanding.

[01:06:03] And that seems like a biblical way of learning. So we'll talk about that some more when we get back from this break. Have you ever met a child you knew would do great things? They displayed remarkable imagination, understanding, and a zest for learning. Now imagine someone takes that child and instead of fostering their potential with a real education, they feed them nothing but lies.

[01:06:31] You know, that scenario isn't so far from reality. From a young age, Americans are fed a consistent stream of distorted facts from the secular indoctrination they receive in many public schools to the biases presented as fact in many colleges and universities to the barrage of misinformation from the mainstream media and the lack of moral grounding in our society. It's not that Americans aren't capable of understanding the truth. It's that they aren't exposed to it enough.

[01:07:01] You can expose more Americans to the truth when you give to Point of View, where listeners receive facts, perspective, and biblical truth they don't get from society. As long as we have truth, we have hope. Give today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. Pointofview.net and 1-800-347-5151.

[01:07:31] Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now here again is Liberty McArtor.

[01:07:57] Okay, I want to talk a little bit more about this topic of knowledge, which is within this article by Luke Burgess that we're discussing. It was published in the New Atlantis. How to become a person after smartphones have rotted your brain. But really, what does it mean to live to our full potential as human beings as much as we can in our fallen world?

[01:08:19] And there are so many ways that digital technology, especially the smartphone, has just taken away or chipped away at things that really do make us human. And one of those ways is how we learn. And so I want to mention this because obviously we're a media ministry. We're all sitting here talking on the radio right now. We've got social media channels, Follow Point of View, by the way, and all of these things.

[01:08:44] And yet I think a lot of people do feel so overwhelmed with just the information overload and that curiositas, which is the Latin term from which we get the English word curiosity. But really what it means is distracting knowledge versus I'm going to try to say another Latin term studiositas mentioned in here, which is a virtue that helps govern our desire for knowledge.

[01:09:09] Jonathan, you had some great insight on this in terms of what it truly means to know something or to gain knowledge. So walk us through that a little bit. Yeah. So I believe God and Trinity imprints himself on the world. And so when you look through learning and you look in Scripture, it talks about gaining in knowledge and understanding and wisdom. And so there's this Trinity in learning that you walk through as you build out and you source and you look at the world. And so that idea of knowledge is exposure to a lot of different ideas.

[01:09:39] And that's intentionality. That's not just mindless. Let me brain numbingly scroll for intelligence sake and tickling the intelligence. But there's actually this let me get exposure to ideas, to concepts, to understand how people think, what they think, how they say it. And then there's comprehension, which is understanding and taking that exposure and that width of knowledge and diving deep into various points. And that would be if you wanted to picture a tree, you want a tree that spreads out its roots far, but you also need it to go deep.

[01:10:09] And so knowledge would be expanding far. And then understanding is going deep where you're starting to comprehend and you're really starting to build out a topic and understand the nuances of the arguments of why one thing might be the way it is versus something else being a different way. And then you move into this idea of wisdom, which is the application of knowledge and understanding. And so if you just get exposure and then you just get understanding, but you never actually do anything with it, you're not meeting out the full potential.

[01:10:37] Same thing when you study and you come to know the Lord. If you study, you can get comprehension about a lot about God and then you can take things deep. But if you never actually then walk that out, you're losing out on that trinity of knowledge and relationship and building in the relationship with him. And so one of the problems that we have with digital media today is just the oversaturation and there are no gatekeepers.

[01:11:00] And so you can read an article from a five-year-old who sends it through ChatGPT and has them edit something and it can look really good compared to someone with a PhD. And if we just take, I read this on the internet, it came on my Facebook feed or my X feed or YouTube. It must be true without going back and saying, well, let's let's build out. What can I comprehend? Where can I get a width of knowledge? How can I dive deep in this? And then I can start drawing conclusions and applying what I'm learning.

[01:11:28] So there's a lot more that's being broken in the digital generation that we're we have access to more knowledge and information, but we don't know how to actually use it. And we have no gatekeepers. So we have to be super diligent to study well. Yeah, that's that's so good. I feel like that's so relevant, especially for fake news and conspiracy theories. I've actually had people say, OK, how do I know?

[01:11:56] Like my friend sent me this website or my friend sent me this video clip. And if people are just struggling because I think a lot of people actually do want to know and they want to be informed. So just kind of keeping with that thread for a minute and then Sarah, I'll come to you, too, and we'll talk about some of these antidotes. But what's how do we do our due diligence in a world of information overload and say, OK, as a Christian, I want to be well informed.

[01:12:24] But does that mean that maybe we need to slow down on our exposure? And how do we develop that what he calls studios to toss a really kind of digging in a little bit deeper? Like what does that practically look like? The very first practical step is check the source. Always. I was reading an article and the first thing you get on Google is chat GPT or whatever the Google AI version is now. And it's giving you information.

[01:12:53] There have been so many times I've hit on the the source, the citation. And I'll read through that article and it actually isn't saying what the AI says is saying. So always don't trust it. Don't do your due diligence. Do your research and go back to the original sources. And then the other thing that you want to do is start looking back further than that into where these sources coming from.

[01:13:17] So if someone's quoting an article and you're reading that article, go back and actually read the sources and where they're coming from. Oh, is this a notable publisher? Oh, this is a self-published book on Amazon that no one's actually fact checked at all. Interesting.

[01:13:32] Well, they might have good points, but but go back and do your due diligence and go as far back in that stream as possible and find noted noted people that you trust who can speak into and give direction versus just this person said it and they sound really confident. Well, do they have receipts? Do you have the links? If you're saying something and you don't provide the links, there's there's a lot of danger in that. Don't take it. They might be right, but don't take it as truth until you've done your research. So that's the very first basic step.

[01:14:02] Yeah, that's so good. I definitely encourage people to, yes, take that advice. And something that you said, too, about roots going deep, really, with that comprehension reminds me of Psalm 1 about the righteous man being like a tree planted by streams of water that yields fruit in its season. And I just imagine a tree that is very deeply rooted and nourished.

[01:14:25] And Sarah, when he talks about the antidotes in this article, that is what it reminds me of is really nourishing our souls and our minds. And so he gives several tips for kind of developing, again, those rituals we talked about, those habits that can help us maybe detox a little bit from all of this information overload. But what did you like about that?

[01:14:51] And what would you recommend, too, in terms of practices to help people nourish themselves as human beings rather than online? Well, I loved, I'll just kind of briefly go over.

[01:15:06] I loved the first one, and that was, I know he talked a little bit about not having like a huge group of community, but meaning more so pointing towards social media community and getting overwhelmed. But having a smaller group, maybe of five people, and those are your core people who pour into you and are present.

[01:15:32] And then the second one, which Jonathan just touched on a bit, just really pursuing knowledge and deep knowledge. So maybe I would recommend picking up a good book, maybe a classic versus scrolling social media. Yeah. Or, you know, studying scripture and not just glancing over a Bible verse, but maybe pulling out a commentary.

[01:15:59] And then I loved the third one, and that was leisure and the practice of good leisure. So, for instance, like practicing the Sabbath. Yeah. We're not so good at that in America all the time.

[01:16:19] Yes, but pursuing rest, not as a way to recover from work, but as a way to celebrate life. I really liked that. That's so good. Because, yeah, again, it's like it's that end product mindset of, okay, I'm resting so that I can go back to work or I'm resting because I just worked. But viewing rest as a good in and of itself as a way to, like you said, celebrate life.

[01:16:49] Man, that was just beautiful. Oh, yeah. Wasn't it, Josh? She's so good. I agree. She's so good. Yeah. And there is this sense when you rest, you participate in the nature of who God is. And so you can't really have true work without rest because rest teaches us trust. And I don't know if you can have good rest without good work. Like they go hand in hand, and that goes all the way back to Genesis 1.

[01:17:10] And so the ability to set that pattern in life is so critical for your kids, for yourself, for other people around you. Because, yeah, we don't. We are a very loud and busy world in America right now. Yeah, it's so true. It really is countercultural, especially when you add smartphones and social media and digital media into it all. You've got to be able to be different.

[01:17:37] And I think that's the life that we're called to as Christians. So this is – I've loved this, and I loved all the things that you pointed out, Sarah, as well. And really, it can seem difficult, especially if you are kind of addicted to social media, which is a real thing. Like if you're feeling like, man, it's just so hard to pull away, that's a real struggle.

[01:17:58] But just because it's hard doesn't mean that it's not simple to say, okay, I am going to replace my scrolling with reading. Reading a good book, reading the Bible. I am going to replace my online community with a real-life community. And I'm going to allow myself to truly rest. So just great insights. Read the whole article at pointofview.net. I encourage you to do that. And we'll discuss more important topics when we get back from this break.

[01:18:27] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Okay, so we spent a few minutes over the last couple of segments, more than a few minutes, talking about knowledge, the nature of knowledge,

[01:18:53] how we can really reclaim and retain our humanity in an age of smartphones and digital media and, of course, AI now. And one of those things we talked about is how we really build understanding. So that's a great lead-in to this other article. You can read it at pointofview.net. This is from National Review. And the title is, Yes, We Should Teach Students What to Think. Now, there's a kind of, I don't know, adage saying, I've said it,

[01:19:21] but we need to stop teaching students what to think but teach them how to think, which I think there's truth in that. But what they do with that adage is take the opportunity to say, well, you really do need to teach kids what to think too. And so as Christians, this education is like a really big issue for us, or at least it should be because it's how we're forming the next generation. So I think it's good to start with, what does education even mean?

[01:19:49] A lot of people today, even Christians might say, well, it's so that you can get a job and make money. And I think all three of us around the roundtable know that it's a little bit more than that. Sarah, I know you've worked in a classical school in the past. I love the classical tradition of education. But really, it's not just about forming a worker. Education is about forming a person.

[01:20:18] So I'd love to get your perspective on that as someone who's been in that world a little bit. Yes. So when I taught at a classical school, I was actually in, I was a pre-K teacher. So the subjects are not as intense then, but it's especially focused on the formation of the person. Like we're teaching them to love what is good, true and beautiful. I worked specifically in a Christian classical school.

[01:20:47] So that also means like we memorize scripture. We go over catechisms. And I loved seeing, even from a young age, how that formed little four-year-olds. Yeah. How they begin to understand the importance of loving their neighbor and the responsibility they have to do that. Yeah. That's, I love the perspective of starting that early.

[01:21:15] Because I, again, it's like, that's, that's a big goal of like instilling virtue in little ones. But I don't know, what was your experience with that? Because I, it's like, we're all fallen. And obviously that's inherent in our nature. And anybody who's been around little kids knows that it kicks in early. Like you don't have to teach them to be rebellious.

[01:21:40] But it also seems like I just, from my own kids, and I'm wondering from your perspective as someone who taught that age group, like they respond to the good and the true and the beautiful sometimes so much better than even when you try to start that education at an older age. Did you find that? Yes. Well, I would say so. I never taught in a high school classroom, so I can't really compare there.

[01:22:11] But I would say, yeah, their, their hearts and minds easily picked up on scripture on just the example that was, that they saw. Even with different students and teachers around the school. And yes, of course, still like little sinners, but made in God's image.

[01:22:37] And so, you know, you have your challenges along the way. But it was, I would say, just the holistic view of teaching was so much more life-giving all the way around. Yeah, I love that. It is life-giving education done right.

[01:23:01] And of course, in this article, they mention C.S. Lewis and the abolition of man, which I love, Jonathan, because he does a great job of explaining why education shouldn't actually be neutral. That does a disservice to students, doesn't it? It does. It does.

[01:23:21] If you, if you believe that there's an objective truth in the world and you believe that there are things that people ought to know, ought to do, the laws of nature, nature's God, then you have an obligation to teach that truth. You also have the obligation to teach how you get to that understanding. And so, if there is something true worth knowing, it's important to teach people what that is, gravity, right? I teach my kid, don't jump off the roof because gravity works.

[01:23:50] And here's how it works and why. We don't need to let them find that out on their own. Exactly. There are things you don't want them to do. And we take that and we apply that out. And so, you absolutely want to teach someone how to think about something and how to get to the conclusions because that's the joy of learning. When your brain clicks in and says, oh, I can understand this. Oh, we can figure this out. Oh, I can take a motor apart and figure out how this goes. That's cool. That's fun. Oh, I can disassemble Legos if you're a kid and make them together into something.

[01:24:19] That's cool. I understand how these things work. But you also want to then give them the foundation of there are good end results to get to. Here is truth. Here's that which is right. Here's that which matches up against reality in the world. And then here's how we can get to that. So when you're out, all parents raise their kids or should raise their kids to leave the house. There's a commissioning. And so we want you to know how to find these answers when you're out and about. But we're going to give you the answers now as much as we can because I don't want to stunt you.

[01:24:49] I don't want you to just make your way in a world and not be able to figure things out when you need something to come back to and rest on. Yeah, that's that's a great point, because I think this kind of I think it's a little bit of a false dichotomy between teaching what to think and how to think. It is because, yes, teach teach the truth. And that's not indoctrination or my opinion. That's like you said, that's reality. All truth is God's truth.

[01:25:15] So the world is how it is because it's how God made it. But I think sometimes we can, in an effort to maybe combat secular education as Christians, the temptation can just be, OK, I'm going to inundate you with everything that the Bible says, but not give you the tools to realize how when you apply critical thinking, you actually end up at truth because that's in line with the gift of reason that God gave us.

[01:25:43] So I think it's just important for us to really emphasize starting at the young ages, like you really can't start too early of teaching kids to be in line with reality. And that's that's a part of teaching how to think and what to think. And too early and later in life, like both.

[01:26:04] And if you're not teaching reality, if you've just grown up and there was a stage where I just lost the joy of learning and that had to become rekindled. And if you just stay there in that, oh, well, whatever. No, go relearn how to learn because your life is going to be better for it. There is no maximum age for that. My grandma was 95 years old and learning new things. It was amazing. Wow. And start young and keep going when you're old.

[01:26:32] And if you fail when you're older, well, just restart. Get up and keep going. It's OK. Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. I can't believe we're about out of time because it just time flies when you're having fun. And there's always so much to talk about. But real quickly before the answer, you mentioned a minute ago, like instead of scrolling, maybe read a book. And one of the things I briefly mentioned earlier is that a lot of professors at colleges are actually.

[01:26:57] Having to change the way they teach because students don't even know how to read anymore. So I just I want to say thank you for saying that. Any final thoughts today on that or any topic we've discussed? I don't think so. This is it's been great. 30 seconds. But yes, I know our time is running down. Our thoughts. Yes. So I take Sarah's advice. Pick up a book instead of scrolling.

[01:27:28] Take Jonathan's advice. Really dig in and rekindle that learning because that is so much of what we're called to as believers. But Jonathan and Sarah, thank you both for being on the roundtable today. Thank you. A lot of fun. And thank you for listening to Point of View. I will be back tomorrow with some great interviews. Dr. Sandra Glahn, Sarah Walton, some great books to discuss. And so stay right with us here on Point of View tomorrow.

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