Point of View June 10, 2026 – Hour 2 : Prophecy and the Middle East

[00:00:07] This is Point of View Radio Talk, and now, Kirby Anderson. Second hour today we have in studio with us Dr. Gary Frazier, a good friend of the ministry, of course heard him many times. Going to talk about what's going on in the Middle East before we're done. We're also going to talk about the crisis in the church and some of this all comes together in terms of prophecy.

[00:00:34] Gary Frazier is a good friend. Dr. Gary Frazier, of course, is the founder and president of Discovery Missions. We have all sorts of information about him, the website, his link, Facebook and X and much more. The individual has been to Israel more than almost anybody I know, has degrees of doctor degree, for example, from Liberty University, as well as a doctor of divinity from International Seminary. And we have all his bio and much more that you need to know about.

[00:00:59] So again, if you would like to know some of the topics we're going to be addressing, we will a bit later open up the phones. But Dr. Gary Frazier, just great to have you in studio. Hey Kirby, always a privilege and an honor to be with you. One of the things we talked about on Monday, and I use this just to set up the fact that we'd be talking about some of these prophetic ideas, is that Michael Brown said, I'm not setting dates for the second coming. And he goes through, you know, 88 reasons why the rapture wasn't on 88 and Harold Camping and all that.

[00:01:28] But he then at the end makes a statement. He says, but things are different today. And what he means, and this kind of moves into some things that we have talked about before, and that is he sees anti-Semitism developing in unprecedented ways.

[00:01:46] Now we've always had anti-Semitism, but if you are going to in the future talk about the fact that there's going to be all the nations waging war against Jerusalem and the Jewish people, whether you look at Zechariah 12, whether you look at Ezekiel 38 and 39, in some respects it does seem to me that we're seeing a level of anti-Semitism that I've never seen before, at least in my lifetime. What about you? Well, I agree.

[00:02:13] First of all, I would simply say that because so many of our younger adults have bought into social justice mentality, there's been a real switch. When Israel became a nation again, the whole world rose up and said, hey, they have a right to their homeland. God gave it to them and so forth and so on. And so that was kind of the consensus for a number of years. But along in the last few number of years, in the last many years, I should say, this, the Palestinian, quote, problem,

[00:02:42] which was engineered by the United Nations and others, and especially when Yasser Arafat came on the scene in the mid-60s. But what happened here is that the more social justice became the primary thinking of younger adults, they began to see Israel as the problem and the Palestinians as being those who are mistreated. Well, the end result of that has been over the last few years that that's heightened the entire world with regard to anti-Semitism.

[00:03:13] But we also have to understand this. The Bible does teach that the closer we get to the coming of Jesus, the more the world would turn against anything that is of God. And Israel still, even though we know that Israel is not a religious nation, quote, unquote, even though we know it's a secular nation and so forth, we know that today we know that many, many, many, in fact, I would say the overwhelming majority of young people in Israel are atheists

[00:03:42] because they have this mindset that, you know, if we were the chosen of God, then why would all these things happen to us? So they've turned away from God. Why would God let this happen kind of mentality? So the closer we get to the coming of Jesus, the more and more and more of this kind of thing we see. And I'm telling you, it's unprecedented today. You know, what's amazing to me is, and it's not just the young people in the world, because Europe is much worse than even America. We're bad enough. Europe is terrible.

[00:04:12] But also it's the corporate people who are jumping on the bandwagon with, you know, the, you know, turning against Israel, not having anything to do with it, et cetera. And so, I mean, it's mind boggling. So when we really think about it, we have to understand it is spiritual in nature, and it goes to the fact that we are involved in spiritual warfare.

[00:04:34] And believers today need to understand that we, and I get attacked on this on a regular basis, you know, you guys are Zionists. Well, yeah, we are, because the Bible teaches that there will be a return to quote-unquote Zion. And so we believe that. We believe Abraham in Genesis 12, 3, God's word is still as true today as it was then.

[00:04:59] And so, yeah, we can accept the idea, but they label us that way sometimes with a negative connotation. And yet here's this tiny country surrounded by 23 or so Muslim nations, and yet think of where we would be if we didn't have Israel. Probably 75% of all the medical equipment you see in hospitals and doctor's offices are made in Israel. Think about all the things that they've done.

[00:05:29] I mean, they've been a leader in the arts and medical and in business. I mean, it's unbelievable. 25% of the Nobel Prizes. Exactly. So we'd be in a mess without the Jewish nation of Israel. But see, ignorance is bliss today. And the dumber you are, the smarter people think that you are. And it's sad. You know, you mentioned Zionism for just a minute. On Monday, again, Gary Frazier, we had Victoria Churchill on, and she was documenting, as she had in one of the pieces,

[00:05:58] that we had an individual that made it into the runoff in a congressional race here in the state of Texas, wanting to put American Zionists, and that would be Gary Frazier, in internment camps. Now, again, she's a wacko. But the point is, she made it to the runoff. And these are individuals sometimes running for office that seem to almost have lost common sense. And that almost seems to be prophetic as well, don't you think? Well, I think so.

[00:06:26] But again, it goes back to this is a spiritual war. And Satan is alive and well. He's pushing the entire world to turn against Israel. Well, artificial intelligence, which you've done a number of excellent programs on, everything is getting primed for the church to be taken out of the world, the appearance of the Antichrist, and so forth and so on. The world stage is really set. And I'll tell you this.

[00:06:53] You know, one of the scariest things that I can think of about artificial intelligence is that people accept what they're told without questioning the basis of it. And again, I want to go back to say this, and I hate to be so blunt, but we have the most historically and biblically illiterate generation I think we've ever had. It's mind-boggling. I mean, D-Day occurred just a few days ago, June 6, 1944,

[00:07:23] when we went into, you know, Normandy beaches and so forth. Do you know, I was talking to a few young people. They don't even know what that was. No. I said, you know, today's D-Day. What is that? Yeah, they don't even know who we fought. We don't know why we have World War II. They don't know who fought in the American Revolution. No, and I'll tell you, this sets up the world for what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24. You know, we've talked about this many times,

[00:07:51] but when he talked about there'd be rumors of wars and rumors of wars and all those things, but only all those things he mentioned once. But four times he said, watch out that no one deceives you. Yeah. And this culture and this generation is ripe for deception in so many different areas. We're going to take a break and when we come back, continue with Dr. Gary Frazier. A little bit later, we'll open up the phones in case you have some questions. But we're focusing on the Middle East. But pretty soon we're going to talk about, well, shouldn't the church be able to counter that?

[00:08:20] Well, not if the church is weak. So this is going to put together two different lectures and messages he gives. And you'll have to pay attention because we're going to go through all of it fairly quickly. Come back, though. We do want to talk a few other things because I posted a couple of pieces here from National Review and Wall Street Journal. Israel isn't the problem and the fight right now between Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump. Who saw that coming? We'll be right back.

[00:09:00] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. You know, as we celebrate 250 years of America, there is a need to make the case once again for this country. One book that I found both helpful and interesting is The Case for America, An Argument on Behalf of Our Nation, written by Brett Baer of Fox News. It is structured as a court case. He begins with an opening argument, then five chapters of testimony followed by a closing argument and a verdict.

[00:09:28] His opening question is one that I've often heard. Why do we date America from July 4, 1776? We could use the day of the Battle of Lexington and Concord, April 1970-75, or the day the Constitution was ratified, June 21, 1788. We chose the signing of the Declaration of Independence as our founding moment because the Declaration was the first time we announced ourselves as the United States of America.

[00:09:55] In his chapters on testimony, he focuses on five key points. America chose unity despite dissent. America is a beacon of freedom. America has a gift of resilience. America is a land of opportunity. And America strives to be a civic ideal. Each of those chapters would have been seen as self-evident, but have become controversial in our day. His closing argument is the American Dream 2026 and willingly admits that the dream has been battered.

[00:10:23] That is why we need to make the case for America. When it comes to the verdict, Brett Baer switches hats and then sits among the jurors to render a verdict. His conclusion? The case for America is strong. I would agree and believe we need more books, booklets, programs, and speeches that make the case for America. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:49] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again, we're talking about the Middle East for a little bit, and then we're going to move on to some other topics because so many things we can talk about with Dr. Gary Frazier.

[00:11:13] But two of the articles we posted, one on Israel isn't the problem from National Review, Israel fights with Trump while Trump talks from the Wall Street Journal. I just wanted to give you a few because some people have been asking, Gary, what is going on? On the one hand, we certainly appreciate the fact that this president has put together the Abraham Accords, which may eventually become the Abraham Alliance. We're seeing more and more countries that might actually support the nation of Israel.

[00:11:39] But on the other hand, who would have predicted just even a few days ago, much less weeks ago, that the president would have chewed out the prime minister of Israel? And I think some of that gets down to the fact that we are over here in this country and maybe don't have an appreciation for what it would be like if you have, for example, some of our listeners are in states at border Mexico. Imagine if there were rockets coming over the border from Mexico.

[00:12:08] Some of our listeners are on states that border Canada. Imagine if Canada was shooting into here. If you're in northern Israel, and I've been there many times, and you've been there more than anybody I know, you see how close you are to Lebanon and how dangerous Hezbollah is. And I think we need to come back to maybe having you educate us for a few minutes about what radical Islam is all about.

[00:12:29] Well, first of all, and it was shocking to I think all of us who understand Israel's right to exist in the land that God gave them that President Trump would react as he did toward Benjamin Netanyahu. The thing that always has amazed me over the years is that Israel is a sovereign nation.

[00:12:51] And yet almost every European nation thinks that they have a right to somehow dictate what the Jewish people would do. And yet on the other hand, not a one of them are sitting there running into a bomb shelter several times throughout the night. And if they were to understand that, they would realize that this is a whole different scenario, that these people in Israel have been dealing with something that the Europeans haven't dealt with since World War II.

[00:13:18] But having said all that, it concerns me greatly that our president, who I have supported, okay, and the bottom line is that I cannot believe that he still today does not grasp, in my humble but accurate opinion, that he does not grasp what this thing with the Iranians are all about. First of all, Iran, and it doesn't need to be stated, but I'm going to restate it.

[00:13:45] They are the world sponsor of terrorism. So they fund Hezbollah. The president of Lebanon said this week, I think it was Monday, he said Hezbollah has established a country within a country. They said this is not our fight. We don't want to support Iran. They may hate Israel, but that's not our position. We want to have a prosperous place of peace and safety for our own population. And so he's expressing frustration.

[00:14:14] But as we watch what's happening with these negotiations, it concerns me greatly because I still don't know that the president grasps, and I hate to say this, what really drives the Iranians. They don't care about human rights. They don't care about survival, except for the top IRGC guys, you know, whatever. They don't care if all the Iranian people get wiped out. They could care less. They're on a mission.

[00:14:43] It's a religious mission, and we've all said this so many times. There's no political solution to a religious problem. And the bottom line is Jared Kushner and Steve Whitcock are over here with the Qataris, and they're talking to – and they're trying – this is not a real estate transaction. Yes. This is not – common sense does not have a place in this conversation. There's only one thing the Iranian leadership understands, and that is power. It is force. And so I don't know when the president talks about a deal.

[00:15:13] Let me just tell you, you can't – there is going to be no deal. And if it is a deal, it's a farce. And so I know it sounds terrible for someone to say, well, the only way to take care of this is just to wipe them out. But let me be blunt. The only way to take care of this is to wipe them out. I mean, that's all – that's it. Now, people say, well, how in the world can you be a Christian and say this? Listen, it grieves us for what's happening in Iran.

[00:15:39] And we're grateful, by the way, that there's a great revival taking place in Iran because people are looking up because they have nowhere else to look but up. And so there is a powerful movement taking place. But the bottom line in this whole scenario is, is that these people are never going to give up. And their goal is bringing about a worldwide catastrophic event that will bring in their, quote-unquote, their Mahdi. Now, let's talk about intelligence for a moment.

[00:16:08] They believe that the 12th descendant of Muhammad disappeared in 941 A.D. And that he's been living in a well – yeah, it's hard to believe – about 40 miles outside Tehran. And that he will come back. But only when they bring about a worldwide catastrophe will that allow their, quote-unquote, imam to return. Well, first of all, the intelligence factor there is just null and void. That's the first thing. But the second thing is this.

[00:16:37] They actually believe this. And that's what's frightening. So if they believe it, that would be the same as me telling you, Kirby, listen, I know that you've done research. You've very carefully studied the life, death, burial, resurrection of Jesus. You know that he appeared to his apostles. You know 500 people saw him at one time. You know the disciples watched him ascendant. But I want to tell you, I need you to not believe that any longer. I need you to change your position. You would never do that.

[00:17:06] You say, how would I? How can I? Well, that's exactly what the leadership of Iran is saying. They are not going to change. Now, that being the case, then President Trump has to then reevaluate everything that we're doing there to decide how you handle that kind of a situation. And I frankly don't think there's a good option. I'm sorry. I'm not the negotiator that he is. But I don't think there's a good answer to that.

[00:17:34] And, again, that's why you keep getting frustrated with this idea that, well, maybe if we have a ceasefire, we'll open up the Strait of Hormuz. And it just doesn't look like it's opening up. And there are now reports saying that some of those batteries they've taken out, they've been able to refurbish them. And if you think we have an oil crisis right now and an oil shock right now, just imagine what the future is going to bring. Well, no doubt about that. And here's the question I would ask. Where are the Europeans? Yes.

[00:18:01] I mean, why are we having to – why are we always doing this alone? And so the bottom line here is, but even if we have to go it alone, we need to put a stop to that. We need to be in control of the Strait of Hormuz. And now the Houthis are firing, as you know, in the Red Sea area as well. And this is another dangerous scenario because there's a lot of goods and services that travel through that area as well. So, look, the world is in a state of chaos. Yes, it is.

[00:18:29] I mean, listen to James Tallarico, who's running here in Texas for a Senate seat. I mean, this man is a stark-raving mad lunatic. I mean, he says that Gabriel gave Mary an option as to whether or not Jesus would be born. She could abort him and so forth. I mean, open borders. I mean, this guy's nuts. And yet, I just saw a sign yesterday driving the street, Tallarico for Texas. Seriously? Seriously?

[00:18:57] I mean, I'm thinking, I don't know who lives there, but I sure want to avoid that house. But this morning, oddly enough, I was reading an article about a certain lady who was in the military, and she decided that she was going to drop out of going to church because she can't stand being around the Trump supporters. And here's the thing that I think that people are missing. It's not just that we're in love with Donald Trump.

[00:19:17] We love the policies that Donald Trump has brought about because they are better for Americans than any president we've had that I can go back a long, long time ago. Okay? So the bottom line is it's the policies that President Trump has brought to the forefront, putting America first. The Maha, the make America healthy again idea. There's so many good things that he's done.

[00:19:43] But this idea of eternal peace, somehow he's got to get past that. So, again, that's just my two cents worth. Well, we're going to take a break. But when we come back, I'm going to not necessarily change topics, but it will seem like it because we're going to talk about the church in crisis because one of the questions I got when I was speaking in front of the Rotary Club the other day in Dallas after we talked about Islam is they said, well, how would we counter it?

[00:20:06] And I said, well, somebody was saying, well, will secular humanism counter Islam in the Middle East or even in Europe? I said, you know the answer to that. The only thing that might counter it is a strong church against a strong Islam. But how are we doing inside the church? And I've heard Dr. Gary Frazier recently talk about the crisis inside the church. So if we're going to have a strong church, if we're going to stand true and we're going to have discernment,

[00:20:32] which he was just talking about a minute ago, I think you will be shocked at some of the examples he uses because not only has he traveled to Israel, perhaps more than anybody I know, because he speaks in different churches almost every week, he, in a sense, has been engaging in this focus group. And his analysis of where the church is going, I think, will be disturbing to you as well. And that has a prophetic significance. So let's take a break. If you find yourself saying, well, I'd really like to know a lot more about Dr. Gary Frazier, click on the button there.

[00:21:02] The first one, of course, will take you to his website. The second one will take you to his Facebook page. The third will take you to his X file. We also have a profile, a place where you can follow him, read more about it, and read some of his articles. All available at our website, pointofview.net. We come back. Church in crisis. What's going on? We'll talk about that right after this.

[00:21:33] Will the American experiment endure? As we approach the 250th anniversary for our nation, we must recognize the answer to that question largely depends on us. In 1789, President George Washington said something important. He said, America is an experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people.

[00:21:58] That means that our actions, our values determine the course of our nation. Washington also argued that we can't expect blessings if we ignore God's moral order. If you want to help the American experiment endure, if you want to restore the moral foundation that made this nation strong, partner with Point of View. Your support equips listeners to live according to God's moral order and defend freedom for the future.

[00:22:28] Give this month and your gift will be doubled. Call or click today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. That's pointofview.net and 1-800-347-5151. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:54] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Dr. Gary Frazier in studio with us today. And I thought we would change topics, but in some respects it all fits together.

[00:23:22] Because if you understand prophecy, there's going to be a time in which Christians want their ears tickled. And in some respects, I saw you do a presentation recently, which if you go to your website, I'm sure people, if they'd like to get the PowerPoint and look at the slides, can recognize that we're going to go through this fairly quickly. But you might even schedule Dr. Gary Frazier to come and speak in your church. But one of the other things that you do is, in addition to going to Israel all the time,

[00:23:48] is you go into a lot of churches, and over time you have noticed this slide, this very concerning slide of what's happening in the churches. Can you kind of give us an overview? Yeah, Kirby, and it's so true. You know, I have a different vantage point than most Christians who sit in the pew of the same church week after week after week, and also pastors who pastor that church. And they're not out into the weeds, if I may say it that way. They don't really see what's going on in a lot of other places.

[00:24:17] They may read and so forth, but today's a vastly different world in the Christian community than I've ever seen before. And let me just say that it's primarily noticeable to me in a very stark way in four primary areas. The first one is that we have a crisis in the pulpit. And let me explain what I mean by that.

[00:24:37] Today, we have pastors of churches, and it's varying sizes, but it really is systemic with the huge mega churches. These guys have forgotten that Mark 1045, Jesus said, I did not come to serve, I mean to be served, but to serve. Right. These guys have forgotten that. They want to be treated like rock stars.

[00:25:00] And because of my Holy Land ministry through the years, I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of pastors of all sizes. And so I want to say that the great majority of pastors are good and godly men who have a call on their life from God. They're trying to be pleasing to the Lord and serve their congregations and so forth. But today, we're seeing some new developments that are really pretty earth-shattering as far as I'm concerned. For example, I'll give you a couple of illustrations.

[00:25:26] One pastor of a mega church that had a number of different campuses, all right? And so we happened to be together in Israel, and he was doing a teaching. And when he finished the teaching, he walked over and was standing by where I was. And so we were just kind of standing there watching the people and so forth. And a man on the trip walked up to him, and he said, I just want you to know that I agree with everything you said.

[00:25:56] Well, golly, bum, this pastor went ballistic and screamed at this guy. You think I care if you agree with me? I don't care what you think about. And anyway, I kind of moved away from this guy because I was thinking the guy was going to probably punch him in the face, which is probably maybe what I would have done had he talked to me. But the guy just put his head down to her and walked away. And I said, is that guy a member of your church? Yeah, he is. But I'm – well, I mean, would Jesus have responded to any kind of – any person like that?

[00:26:25] And the answer to that is absolutely not. Right. So anyway – And you had some that wanted limousines and Israel. Oh, yeah. And so there was another one that said he kept – he wanted to be sure that he wanted to take a small group to Israel to film some footage for Easter. And his associates kept telling me over and over again, he has to have a limo, he has to have a suite. I said, listen, I understand that, but the limo, I don't get that.

[00:26:50] Anyway, he arrived there, got real upset because in Israel they don't have the stretch limos like we have here in America. But he had a Mercedes van, which they call limos and so forth. But anyway, that wasn't good enough for him. And – but the real kicker was when he got to the hotel in Jerusalem, he had one of his staff people go in and the staff person said, faster so-and-so is going to be coming through the doors in just a moment. Do not speak to him unless he speaks to you. And I – whoa.

[00:27:19] So anyway, but we've got this rock star mentality. Yes, we do. And I will tell you, it's more in-depth than we think it is. You know, as a former pastor, you know, and as a shepherd of a flock, I didn't know everybody in my flock, but I did make it my goal to speak to as many people as I possibly could. Today, pastors have their guard.

[00:27:48] They come out when the time comes. They go to the pulpit, and then the person comes and he escorts them off, and they don't ever seem to have any contact with the sheep. How can a shepherd know the condition of his flock if he doesn't know anything about his sheep? And the worst part is, what if he doesn't care about what the sheep are like? So we have a problem in the pulpit, and it is a crisis situation, and I only see it getting worse, by the way. But secondly, we have a crisis in the pew, and I'll tell you why.

[00:28:17] Because they couldn't have, the preacher couldn't have a rock star mentality if the people in the pew didn't permit it. Yes. We have become so dumbed down in our understanding of biblical doctrine. You know, Dr. Adrian Rogers, pastor of Belmont, I mean, Bellevue Baptist in Memphis for many years, who's now in heaven with the Lord. I love a quote that he talked about. He said, he asked one time, this little boy said, son, do you know what doctrine is?

[00:28:46] And the little boy said, yes, sir, that's something you give sick folk. And Adrian Rogers said, you're exactly right, and we've got a bunch of sick folk, and they need doctrine. The problem today is a guy can stand in the pulpit and say things that are not even biblical, and the people in the pew don't know the difference. And that's really a scary thing, because the bottom line is we just kind of want to go into a church and sit down and listen to a sermon and assume that everything that we're being told is true. Votie Bauckham, one of the great pastors, another great minister of God who's gone into heaven now,

[00:29:13] said if we don't know Bible doctrine, then we're ripe for deception. And that is so, so true. And having said all that, so we've got a crisis in the pew as well, and each of us as individual believers have a responsibility. Study the word of God and show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. That's our challenge, and that's our job as individuals. We can be blessed by our pastor or a teacher,

[00:29:40] but the bottom line is it is up to us individually to not only study the word of God, but to apply it properly and understanding the context of it and so forth, and to be obedient to it. That said, we also have a crisis in purpose, because here's the deal. Churches were never intended to be an entertainment venue. We've lost our purpose. People love to come to church and hear the great music. Listen, I love wonderful music, but so much music today is all about me-centered.

[00:30:09] Everything is about me. It's me worshiping and so forth, and I'm not sure it's real worship as much as people claim it is, but here's the deal. People go to church and they get entertained. Listen, if you go to a church service and the pastor delivers a message that the Holy Spirit of God has burned in his heart, and I will tell you, two things will happen.

[00:30:37] There will be repentance take place, and there will be lives that will be changed. And instead of this hoopla that we seem to have, and I'm not trying to be ugly here, but I do get a little tired of singing seven words eleven times. The hymns, I know people don't like them, but I've got to tell you, there's great theology in the hymns, and I will tell you, the church that you and I attend, I tell you, they do hymns majestically when they do them, and so forth. But we also have another problem, and that is a crisis in the purse.

[00:31:07] Because you see, the stats have been for years that 20% of the people give 80% of the money. According to the news surveys, it's 5% of the people giving 95% of the money. Wow. And what that says to us is this, that younger adults and families, they are up to their neck in debt. Bigger house, the car, the boat, all those kinds of things. And the fact of the matter is, they're not able to participate really in giving.

[00:31:36] And they need to understand that giving is a form of worship. And I'm not talking about the tithe quote, I'm talking about being obedient to give according to the word of God. And that is a grave concern to me, because think about where we're going to be in just a few years with a generation that sold themselves into death. I mean, it's just a matter of math. And so many of these churches are not going to survive. They will not be able to sustain themselves. Because you know why?

[00:32:06] The older adults who were taught to give are dying. Nobody's taking their place. Yes. Well, I think, again, we've talked about the crisis in the pulpit and in the pews and in the purpose and even in the purse because of the giving. And so we're going to take a break, come back and get into a couple other applications. But if nothing else, a lot of that matches with one of the booklets we've done on the Next Generation. Of course, we have a Next Generation roundtable. And I think there are some very definite marching orders for those of you

[00:32:35] that are teachers, Sunday school teachers, small group leaders, pastors, and others. So let's take a break. If you'd like to join the conversation, 1-800-351-1212. Or maybe just sit back and take some notes because we very quickly went through a presentation that I know you give almost twice as much time. So if you find yourself saying, well, I'd like to know more about Gary Fraser, click on that first button. That'll take you to him and all sorts of others. Or you can just type in GaryFraser.com. You'll find it there as well. And we have all sorts of links.

[00:33:05] But I just think it was important that as we've been talking about some of these prophetic ideas, whether we look in the Middle East, which is thousands of miles away, or just in our own backyard, it's important for us to recognize how key it is for us to actually study the Word of God. Hopefully it also support ministries like this one and others that actually teach the Word of God and expose you to how to think biblically about every area of life and how to exercise discernment in an age of deception.

[00:33:35] So let's take a break. We'll come back with more right after these important messages. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:04] Back for a few more minutes, Dr. Gary Frazier in studio. And one of the individuals we have on the program and have had on the program for many years is George Barna. And if nothing else, the work that he's been doing over the years has shown us the slide in terms of the pew. But the most recent one shows us a slide in terms of the pulpit. And I think that is, I think, an illustration of if indeed it's mystic in the pulpit,

[00:34:32] it's going to be foggy in the pews. And if you don't have proper doctrine out of the pulpit, you're not going to expect proper doctrine in the pews. Yeah, and you and I were talking at the break, Kirby, about how some of George's more recent survey, like 22% of self-identified evangelical pastors have said they believe that salvation is in Jesus, but we have to work to maintain our salvation. The problem is this. Either Jesus paid it all or he did not. And that's really

[00:35:02] just the question. I mean, did he really on the cross, he uttered, let's say, I know for the demand ever to be made upon this account. Did he either pay it all by the shed blood of the Lamb of God or is it just a partial payment? What's the deal here? Yes, we do work, but we do good works because of the love for Christ in our heart and life. It has nothing to do with maintaining our salvation because we're either born into the family of God or we're not. And that's just all there is to it. I mean, it's just that profound and it's just that simple. You know,

[00:35:32] and so it concerns me greatly about that, but nevertheless, moving right along. Yeah, well, and there's another part of that and that is discernment because there is certainly warning in scripture that there will be a strong delusion. There's certainly a concern about the fact that will the return of Christ find faith? faith and there's the narrow gate. There's just a lot of things to suggest that not everybody going to church is necessarily saved. Well, the truth of the matter is, as you know,

[00:36:02] Billy Graham said the majority of people sitting in the pews on Sunday have never been truly born again. Yeah. And I think the reason for that is very clear. When you meet Christ as every experience in scripture that's given to us in the word of God, when they met him, they went away changed. If there's not a change in a person's life, then something's wrong. And today we have various concepts of, well, who people may think Jesus is. Well, the word of God is very clear who Jesus is,

[00:36:32] but unfortunately they're not paying much attention to that because, you know, like we mentioned just a moment ago, Josh Howerton at a local church out in here where he's talking about the pride issue where they're painting the steps and the pride flag and so forth. Of course, we're right in the middle of pride month. How ridiculous is this? You know, and yet it is what it is. Let's, if we can, maybe give some people some guidance about how to choose the right church, how to choose the right ministries to support and the rest because it does seem to me that, as you pointed out,

[00:37:01] if you're biblically illiterate, you really need to get back to the scriptures and you need to see some very foundational issues and need to ask some good questions, don't you? Well, we do. One of the things that people today have forgotten is that they have every right to go to a pastor and say, I'm considering coming to your church and I want to have a conversation with you. I want to know what you believe. Now, I looked on your website and there's a little drop-down menu on most of them that says what we believe, et cetera, or our beliefs, whatever the case may be. But the fact is,

[00:37:31] do you really believe these things? Because, you know, a pastor who ordained me to the ministry many years ago, one of my dear friends who I love, Dr. J. Frank Davis who's in heaven now, he used to say, you'll never know a liberal by what they say, it's by what they won't say. And one of the things that people need to do is when they're sitting in the pew, they need to begin to think about, have I heard anything about hell in the last, you know, I had a guy approach me one time and he said, I don't want to go to this only church where there's any hellfire and brimstone being priests. And I said,

[00:38:01] man, I don't know where you're going to church. But I hadn't heard any of that in a long time, which is why I wrote a book called Hell is for Real. I knew you did. Because it is. And the bottom line is the truth of the matter is a lot of churches you never hear, everything you hear pretty much is about how to live a victorious life, how to get your best life yet to come. It's all about you. And the bottom line, it ought to be all about him. Well, again, and you may not hear much about sin either. Exactly. And that, because if indeed you don't get people

[00:38:32] lost, they're not going to be saved. And it seems to me that sometimes I know you've just preached on things like the Ten Commandments because there are so many people that just say, well, I'm better than the person next door, better than the person down the street. Certainly, I've never gone to prison and I've never murdered anybody, so I must be in good shape. Well, you know, Chuck Colson in his personal testimony talked about how here he was, the youngest guy in the White House, power in his hands, but he went to dinner with a friend of his that he hadn't seen for a number of years

[00:39:01] and he realized something was very different about him and so he asked him, what's different about you? And the guy told him, I have committed my life to Jesus Christ and here is why, blah, blah, blah. When the dinner was over, Colson said he sat down in his car and he began to think about what this man said and finally, through his own tears, he cried out to God, God, I am a sinner. I've broken your laws, forgive me, et cetera, and today, you know, we have people who walk the aisle who pray a little prayer, then you never see them again.

[00:39:31] They don't even follow the Lord and believers' baptism, so what kind of commitment is it? How is that life changing when no discipleship takes place? And it's not because, sometimes it's because the churches don't follow up, but a lot of churches do follow up and people just, you know, well, they made the decision, quote unquote, emotional or whatever the case might have been, but there's no real conviction of sin and turning from it. And it does seem to me that we keep hearing people talk about revival and a while back

[00:39:59] we even put out a particular Outlook magazine on messages of revival. We weren't saying that we're in it because there's a lot of question about that, but even if we went through revival, we need more than revival, we need reformation. We need to have individuals, not have an emotional experience walking forward, holding up holy hands in a stadium or whatever. They need to grow in their Christian faith and that's certainly something you've been talking about for many years. Well, there has to be a commitment on their part. I mean, they have to truly,

[00:40:29] genuinely commit themselves wholly to Jesus Christ and to the authority of the Word of God. This book, the Bible, is the authoritative guide for every, it deals with every issue that we could ever possibly have. And yet, again, people don't read it, they don't know, they just have to wandering around calling themselves Christians. Well, just before I run out of time, I want people to be able to contact you because they might want to have you come and speak on, of course, prophecy, as you do so often, speak on the crisis in the church,

[00:40:58] maybe just even ask a question, and we have a link to your website. But talk about what's available because I want people to take advantage of some things we've only talked about in one hour, but you've got a lot more than one hour worth of material. Well, here's one of the things that we do, you know, not only do I travel and speak in churches, but I do a weekly Bible study. I teach through books of the Bible because I believe that's how people learn best, and I did that through the years as a pastor. But right now, I'm engaged in teaching through the book of Romans, for example. But I've done, and all this stuff, everything I do, PowerPoint presentations,

[00:41:28] all of that, all of that is on YouTube. All they have to do is put my name in the search box on YouTube, and they'll get hundreds, I have probably 200 and something videos, teaching videos up there, whatever. But if they go to my website, GaryFraser.com, I also have things that we try to, I've written articles about various things. We, you know, we have an article on how to pray for your lost loved ones. I mean, just like you, I've written a lot of things, not nearly like what you've written. You are prolific. I'm just humming along

[00:41:57] back here in the background. But I've got to tell you, there are some things out there, and we try to give everything away free. One of the things that I love for people to get is I have a prophetic timeline. Yes, and that's very helpful. And that's good. I like that. And not only do I have the events that are coming, but also the scriptures so that they know this is what the Bible says about that so that it's not just my imagination because we hear so many, there's so much confusion about the people who don't believe there's going to be a rapture. They're, you know, they think the church is going through the tribulation.

[00:42:28] All of that confusion is unnecessary if they study what the Bible says. Let me just mention again, you mentioned the website, and one of the things that you can get there is not only your non-fiction books, but you have a fiction book that you could hand to a friend that might be interested in that as well. All the videos, all the PowerPoints, all the resources, if nothing else, Gary Frazier, just glad you're in town, and thank you for being here today. Glad to be here. My privilege. Well, we're going to take a break, and when we come back tomorrow, we'll get into some other very important issues.

[00:42:57] If you find yourself saying, well, I'd like to relate to the two guests that we've had today, well, just simply go to this newly revamped Point of View website, and most importantly, I want to thank Megan and Steve, and we'll see you back here tomorrow, right here on Point of View. Have you ever met a child you knew would do great things? They displayed remarkable imagination, understanding, and a zest for learning. Now imagine someone takes that child, and instead of fostering their potential

[00:43:27] with a real education, they feed them nothing but lies. You know, that scenario isn't so far from reality. From a young age, Americans are fed a consistent stream of distorted facts from the secular indoctrination they receive in many public schools to the biases presented as fact in many colleges and universities to the barrage of misinformation from the mainstream media and the lack of moral grounding in our society. It's not that Americans aren't capable of understanding the truth,

[00:43:57] it's that they aren't exposed to it enough. You can expose more Americans to the truth when you give to Point of View where listeners receive facts, perspective, and biblical truth they don't get from society. As long as we have truth, we have hope. Give today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151 pointofview.net and 1-800-347-5151

[00:44:26] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.