Point of View July 6, 2026 – Hour 2 : Kindness is Not Optional

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View, and now, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] Welcome to Hour 2 of Point of View. We have some great things to discuss, a little bit of news later in the hour, but first, let's talk about kindness. It never goes out of style, and that's a good thing because the Bible tells us to wear kindness like a garment.

[00:00:35] And so I want to talk about that for a few minutes. It's so relevant in our culture today. Dr. Karen Swallow Pryor is the current Carlson Scholar at Bethel Seminary, a reader, writer and speaker, author of multiple books that I always enjoy reading, and she is with us on the line to discuss an article that she wrote earlier this year.

[00:00:56] You can find the link. It was published in the dispatch. We have it at PointofView.net. Kindness is not optional. Dr. Pryor, thank you for coming on to Point of View to talk about this with me today. Hello, Liberty. It's so kind of you to have me. Oh, well, thank you. It's very kind of you to join us on Point of View. So I love this article. And again, I know it was out a few months ago, and we've been trying to get you on to talk about it, and it's worked out.

[00:01:24] But again, it's always relevant. And I love the perspective, of course, that you bring to this conversation. So we'll talk about what kindness is and what the virtue of kindness really means. But one of the things that caught my attention is how throughout history in art and literature and even philosophy, people have understood inner character qualities and kind of perceived those in the way that they symbolize things as really affecting people's outward appearance.

[00:01:53] And that may not be very scientifically grounded, but I think it does give us some insight into how people have understood virtues over time. So could you talk about that for a minute? Sure. Of course, that's my great love is literature and the art that goes along with it. And, you know, in the pre-modern times before we had all the scientific categories that we have now, and thank goodness we have them,

[00:02:18] but there was this more holistic understanding of what we are as human beings and our place in the world. And part of that wholism was a recognition that, and it may be expressing itself a little bit too literally, but a recognition that we really are and bear and embody the characters that we cultivate, the character qualities that we cultivate, the virtues and the vices that we cultivate.

[00:02:45] So we can look through art and see that sort of the greedy person is tall and rail thin and sort of almost like starving to death because his soul is being starved. And we might see my favorite example of this is from Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, where Fezziwig is a kind boss, and so he's robust and round with a kind face.

[00:03:12] And so we can see these characteristics in art and literature in a very literal, physical way, and we may not understand things that way today, but still, especially with the virtue of kindness, that is a virtue that it will bear itself out. That quality that we have inside will show in our appearance and even more importantly,

[00:03:41] in our outward manifestation of those behaviors. And science is now showing that the people who are kind tend to have healthier characteristics than those who aren't. Yes, I love that. And let's talk about that a little bit, just the different benefits that people can experience when they do show kindness toward others. Well, there's just been various studies that show that there's definitely a connection between kindness and health.

[00:04:10] And so that can be measured and has been measured in brain health and lower risks of mortality with improved cardiovascular health. Lots of different studies just showing that the kindness that can be manifested, you know, through being nice to other people, through volunteering. There are different ways of measuring, different ways that we can be kind to other people. But people who do that tend to have some of these benefits in physical health.

[00:04:39] I love when science really just confirms what we read about in Scripture, because the Lord does tell us to be kind. We see that throughout the Bible. And yet it's not just for, you know, personal improvement or, you know, a health plan of, okay, I'm going to be kind so I can get the health benefits. Those are natural, I guess, productions of the kindness in our hearts.

[00:05:07] But this really is a command. That's why your article, I think, is titled, Kindness is Not Optional, because it's a command we see throughout Scripture, isn't it? It is. And I love that verse that you invoked at the opening of this about being clothed in kindness, because that kind of illustrates just what we were talking about. Like, kindness isn't just something that we do. It's actually something that we wear and that becomes part of our very bodies in the way that these studies that I just referenced show,

[00:05:37] that it actually does have an effect on our bodies. But it's also something that other people can see, because if it's like a cloak, then they see it, and it also warms us. It's such a beautiful metaphor. It's one of my favorites in Scripture. Yes. Well, I think this would be a good time, but before we go to the break, and we have a few minutes still, to define kindness, because people may be listening and they're like, okay, that's nice, or let's have a kumbaya moment. Okay.

[00:06:04] But really, the definition of kindness goes a lot deeper and is probably a little bit different than what people might initially imagine. Yes. Yes. It's one of those words, because it's such a good word, it gets used in a lot of ways and misused and becomes almost shed of all meaning. But kindness is actually a classical virtue. And like all virtues, it is a quality that is virtuous only in moderation.

[00:06:33] So, for example, an excess of kindness, or what we would call kindness, is actually obsequiousness, or kind of a kissing up behavior toward people. And that's not good. And too little kindness results in quarrelsomeness, which also is something the Bible has a lot to say about. So what's right in the middle, the moderation, is what is truly kind.

[00:06:59] And in its etymology, kindness is not the same thing as what we might mean when we talk about being nice. Nice means just being pleasant or agreeable, which is wonderful. But kindness goes much deeper. It's actually connected to the word kin, which means family. So literally, to be kind means to treat others as though they were family. And that's not always pleasant or agreeable, right?

[00:07:26] Sometimes there's tension and we have to sharpen or correct or speak the truth and love to people who are family. And the other thing about kindness and being connected to family is that it is really goodwill toward others. It means wanting the best for them and not being jealous of others because if they are our family, we're actually happy for them when good things happen to them or they do well.

[00:07:56] That's what it means to be kind is to actually see others as our family. Yeah, I love that definition. And that sheds so much insight into this virtue that we are discussing. So we're about to go to a break, but when we come back, we'll talk about it for a few more minutes. And I'm just thankful for the opportunity to discuss one of these virtues that really is essential for us as Christians. If we want to walk out our faith and we want to be that light in our communities and our nation and the world, then we have to understand kindness.

[00:08:24] And so Dr. Pryor has given us a wonderful opportunity to do that. And we'll continue discussing it when we come back, including what are some of the counterparts? We talked about the excess. I also want to talk about something that I think is really insightful that you bring up, the relationship between kindness and truth. So we'll discuss all that and more when we get back from this short break.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. I hope you enjoyed your Fourth of July weekend. Perhaps you were able to relax from the frenetic pace that has described our lives. Arthur Brooks has been on my radio program many times. He recently talked about the fact that you need to be bored. The Harvard professor and best-selling author knows something about this since his latest research focuses on human happiness. Boredom, he argues, is not something to avoid.

[00:09:27] It is necessary for human flourishing. Sadly, most of us even cultivate habits to prevent from being bored. A Harvard study from a few years ago discovered that many people prefer pain to boredom. When they place people in a room with nothing to do, many would push a button that would deliver an electric shock. They chose pain over boredom. When we aren't occupied, our brain switches over to what he calls the default mode network.

[00:09:54] Unfortunately, our phones and our desire to be entertained means we don't switch over to that brain function very often. It is time for us to recover the value of being silent and waiting on the Lord. Psalm 46.10 says, Be still and know that I am God. Psalm 62.5 says, For God alone, O my soul, wait in silence, for my hope is from him. Another value of boredom is creativity. I've done Bible studies with people who have come up with creative ideas and inventions.

[00:10:22] Nearly all of them said the ideas came to them when their brain was in neutral, when they were showering, shaving, putting on makeup, or driving. Arthur Brooks is right. We don't need distraction to prevent boredom. Instead, we need to take a Sabbath rest from our screens and busy lives. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:47] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. We've been talking with Dr. Karen Swallow Pryor on the virtue of kindness, and she's written an article on this, Kindness is Not Optional, which you can read. We have the link posted at pointofview.net.

[00:11:15] And Dr. Pryor, something that you reference in the article is a chapter of a book that you've written on reading well, finding the good life through great books, which is a book that I have and have used and enjoyed many times over the years. And so this is in your chapter on kindness, which also talks about the 10th of December by George Saunders. You write this, Kindness in its inherent connection to truth must be grounded in the real.

[00:11:44] And I wanted to talk with you about that for a few moments, because I think a lot of times maybe if people are misunderstanding kindness as, like you said, niceness or just pleasantness, then sometimes kindness can be sacrificed on the altar of truth, according to what people say, like, well, I'm just going to tell it like it is, or I don't want to make nice, or, you know, people might not think of kindness and truth as going together, but you say that they're inherently connected. So what does that actually mean? Yeah,

[00:12:13] they absolutely are. And of course, this idea is drawn from classical virtue ethics, which includes Christian thinking about these things, but also expands to the sort of ancient philosophers who studied this. And then church theologians picked up on it and applied it to a Christian understanding. And so in virtue ethics, a single virtue must be connected to all of the other virtues in order to be virtuous. So for example,

[00:12:43] you could not be what we might consider to be kind and not be just or not be courageous. So if you're, if you're trying to be virtuous in a way that doesn't connect to the other virtues, it's actually not virtuous. And so that is actually what grounds it in the real. So you have to actually be pursuing justice and courage and prudence and temperance,

[00:13:10] which are all connected to real life in order to be kind. And that includes, as I mentioned before, speaking the truth, obviously in love and in kindness, which goes back to how kindness is connected to family, the way we would treat family when wanting to deal with, with reality, with them and connect whatever needs to be said or done to reality. Um, it's not abstract. It's not theoretical.

[00:13:39] None of the virtues are all of the virtues are things that we enact and cultivate in the real world. And it can only be measured actually by the effect in the real world. Hmm. You know, one of the things that you write about is kind of the, the vices that are, you know, maybe the, the counterparts to kindness, including envy and then eventually hatred, which stems from ill will.

[00:14:05] And it comes to mind that if we do have goodwill toward others and we want them to know the truth, then it is a kind thing to share the truth with them, especially in an age where most people aren't living according to the truth. And it would actually be an example of ill will to not speak the truth when the occasion arises. Exactly. And you, and you raise another important point about not just this virtue, but all the virtues,

[00:14:35] they have corresponding vices. And we might naturally think that the, the vice that opposes kindness is cruelty, but that's actually not the case. As you mentioned, it's actually envy because envy is rooted in ill will. And as you said, can lead to hatred. And so, yes, we want to, to be truly virtuously kind.

[00:15:26] We say the truth, and the love to all be connected in order for this kindness to be received as it should be received. And so it's just a beautiful example of how all the virtues are connected and we need to cultivate all of them in ourselves to pursue even just one. Yeah, I love that. I, you know, that's not something that I think about very much. And I would imagine many people don't think about how all of those are connected, but I, it does seem to be a difference in, for instance,

[00:15:56] posting something that is technically true, but if you're doing it out of a motivation of a, a gotcha or some sort of bludgeon. And I know Dr. Pryor that you are online and on social media and have been the recipient of this kind of supposed truth telling. And so I'm sure you're much very intimately acquainted with the difference that can come when truth is told in kindness versus not. And so I, I just,

[00:16:22] I think that that connection between those two is so important for us to realize. So again, I thank you for making that connection for us. Well, and one other, before we run out of time, one of the really important point, especially for the Christian is to remember that kindness is actually a fruit of the spirit. And so we, you know, so we actually have an aid in developing and cultivating virtuous kindness and also a measure of the spirit.

[00:16:50] Like we can actually sense how much fruit we are bearing. If we know that we are being kind and peaceable and all of the other qualities of the fruit of the spirit, it's for the Christian. That's important to remember. It's not just an ethic that a virtue that's out there that we should, you know, pursue just because, because we think we should, but as a Christian, we're commanded to, which again is why this essay is titled kindness is not optional.

[00:17:19] It's actually a fruit of the spirit. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, I wanted to ask you a question just to kind of put this into practice for us. And if you don't mind sharing, and if you don't want to, then that's okay. But is there an example of kindness that you've experienced and been the recipient of recently? Hmm. Wow. That's a good, that's a good question. No, I mean, that's, that's a good question. I think that, and I,

[00:17:47] and I think the kindness that I experienced is probably, you know, I can find it online. It's rarer and rarer, but I would just say in everyday interactions, such as with the dear sweet saints at my church, who don't care what goes online or don't care what, what is being said out there or what the controversy of the day is, but they,

[00:18:14] but they just express an interest in what's going on in my, in my everyday life and care about that. That's, that's an example of kindnesses that is really rooted in the real. And it's just really a blessing to me. And it's one that I, I try to think about in return because, you know, if I'm going out in my day-to-day life and at the supermarket or doing a chore or an errand that I don't want to do,

[00:18:42] I have to muster up in me the ability to be kind, even when I'm in a moment where I'm impatient or confused or irritated, which I can be easily. So I practice my kindness by just being patient in that situation. And it does help me to feel better inside. You know, it helps me to feel better than if I gotten myself roused by, by irritation or annoyance. And so kindness always works two ways.

[00:19:12] That's the wonderful thing about this virtue. Yeah, I love that. And it's such a good reminder for us too. Like we don't clock into, you know, being Christians when we are church greeters on Sunday, you know, it's when we're going to the grocery store or interacting with a neighbor. And so that's so important, but you close the article with this kindness isn't likely to stop wars, prevent violence or satisfy the lust of the envious heart. And so I think again, it's still something that's important.

[00:19:40] So in the last minute or so, if it's not going to accomplish those big things, then why is it so important though, that we are still practicing it every day, even in the small ways? Well, you know, I want to say that maybe it can accomplish those things in the long term. Not, not instantaneously. I know I wrote that, but the more I think about it, I really think that the little everyday acts of kindness can be the sort of

[00:20:09] rudder that perhaps gently turns the ship or the butterfly wings that have an effect a long time down the road. We might not see those effects, but I really do think kindness touches people. It encourages them. It makes us feel better. It testifies to Christ. And so even if it's small and doesn't have a dramatic immediate effect,

[00:20:36] I think ultimately treating other human beings all the time as though they were our family, that will have dramatic effects. Even if we can't see them, eternity will show. Wow. Beautifully said. Thank you so much, Dr. Pryor for talking about this timeless virtue with us on Point of View today. Thank you for having me again. Liberty is always a pleasure. Yes. So again,

[00:21:02] such an encouragement and I'm thankful for the opportunity to have Dr. Pryor on the line and share that with you because I think it's such an important reminder. We often think about the big issues, what's happening in DC, what's happening around the world, what's happening at our state legislature, but what effect can we have when we are kind according to the true definition of kindness. And it's not just an option. It's a command. We'll talk about some news when we get back from this break.

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[00:22:57] You are listening to point of view. The opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now here again is Kirby Anderson. All right. Welcome back to point of view. Once again, let me announce some exciting news. As you know, last week we were fundraising for fiscal year end,

[00:23:22] which is a really important time for ministries in general and for point of view as well. We had a $94,000 match on the table and over the weekend we met the match and actually exceeded it. So thank you so much for partnering with point of view and taking advantage of that. It is because of listener support that we are able to reach people around the nation, even in other parts of the world with biblical truth and a biblical perspective on current events

[00:23:51] and what is happening today. And of course, it's never too late to support point of view. So if you've been listening for a long time and you appreciate what you do, then you can always give. It's easy to do that online at pointofview.net. But just thank you to everyone. Such great news that we met and exceeded that match. Now, I wanted to reflect on the 4th of July a little bit. It's July 6th, but of course we were celebrating over the holiday weekend. And so it was also America's semi-quincentennial.

[00:24:18] And I just want to assure you that even though July 4th has passed, here at point of view, we're still going to be celebrating America 250 because I think it needs to be year long celebration. Case in point, tomorrow Kirby will be back. He's going to be interviewing Jerry Newcomb on the book, Thomas Jefferson and the God Who Gave Us Liberty. That's going to be a great interview. And of course, later this year, I think in October, our friend Richard Lim will have his book on George Washington published as well.

[00:24:45] So we're going to continue talking about America's godly heritage and all the things that we celebrate during America 250. But people were celebrating around the nation. So if you go to pointofview.net and look at today's show, I did include a gift link to the Wall Street Journal because they compiled some fun photographs from people celebrating around the nation, including dressing up in period costume for parades and contests and reenactments.

[00:25:11] And it was a hot day to be dressed up in period costume from 1776. But a lot of devoted patriots committed to it. And so you can see some fun pictures from Philadelphia, New York, and of course, Washington, D.C. So that was the big event at the National Mall. And there were some big claims about what was going to happen. You had the Great American State Fair. You had President Trump lined up to speak. But, of course,

[00:25:39] nothing can ever go perfectly smoothly, right? When if you're in event planning, you know this. So I've seen some reports. And I don't know if you were there. Maybe you experienced this, too. There was some evacuation because of thunderstorms. And then people getting in line to try to get back to the mall. The events were pushed very late. But from what I've seen online, anyway, people who did have the opportunity to be there in D.C. for the fireworks show, even though it went pretty far past midnight, said it was worth it.

[00:26:08] And it actually broke the Guinness World Record for largest fireworks display ever. So the previous record holder was actually the Philippines in 2016 on New Year's. And there in a fireworks show there in the Philippines, over 810,000 fireworks were shot off. So on July 4th in Washington, D.C., over 860,000 fireworks popped off

[00:26:36] from 10 sites around the National Mall over a period of 40 minutes. So it was the biggest fireworks display in history of the world for America's 250th birthday. There was also a thunderstorm happening at the same time. So go check out those pictures because there were some pretty cool shots of big thunderclouds, lightning in the background at the same time as the fireworks. So there you go. It was a hot day, especially in Washington, D.C. But I think a lot of people

[00:27:06] had fun celebrating. I certainly hope you did. One of the things my family did over the weekend is last night we went to see young Washington. And I was excited to go see it. I took my boys, went with my husband and our kids and my parents, and we really had fun. We enjoyed it a lot. My boys are young. There are some intense battle scenes, but nothing gory or anything like that. So if you haven't seen it, I would say take the family. It is good. It's patriotic.

[00:27:35] According to historians that I have spoken with, it is true to the spirit of George Washington's life. Of course, it's a two-hour movie or whatever, so they have to condense down some of the actions. But what's really interesting is that it is about young Washington. So we think of George Washington as the leader of the Continental Army, the first president of the United States. He's the guy on the money, okay? But we think of him as a great man. And in reality, his military career did not start out so great.

[00:28:05] In fact, his early military career started out with some big failures. And this movie highlights that. And I actually loved that because it is a peek into a part of George Washington's life that I think a lot of people don't really focus on very often. And also for the family, it sparked some great conversations afterward about what do you do when you fail? Like, what if George Washington had given up? How do we learn from that? And so anyways, great family movie. Apparently, the nation agreed because it exceeded.

[00:28:35] It overperformed at the box office with a $20.8 million opening against a $15 million prediction. And so now the movie, and I'm reading here a report here from Yahoo News, the movie stands as Angel Studios' biggest live action opening ever. So this is again from Angel Studios and The Wonder Project directed by John Irwin. And with such a successful opening weekend, they have already announced plans for a sequel, which I'm sure

[00:29:04] they were planning even ahead. But the fact that this was so successful across the nation, of course, is a boon for their sequel. Well, the next movie that they're working on is going to be called 1776. And I think we know what that will be about. So if you haven't seen it, it's a great family film. I would recommend it. It's lots of fun. But on a more serious note, I did want to take just a little bit of time to reflect on the 4th of July. And there was an article, again, you can read it at pointofview.net that I posted from our friend

[00:29:33] Nadia Williams. She's been on the Know Why podcast on Point of View. She's an author and professor She's also an immigrant, which a lot of people may not realize. But about 30 years ago, her family immigrated to the United States. They were originally from Russia and then lived in Israel and moved right before, right around the time of the fall of the Iron Curtain. And she writes, what to an immigrant is America's 250th? And I thought this was a really poignant reflection because she says,

[00:30:04] here's, I'll just read a little quote from her. Outsiders, whether immigrants like me or other types of newcomers have always been part of the American DNA. What is particularly striking is that they have often also been some of the most passionate defenders of this country's constitution and heritage. Sometimes it takes an outsider to experience something and see just how precious it is and therefore worth preserving. She gives the example of Frederick Douglass and his perspective, not as an immigrant,

[00:30:33] but as a former slave, somebody who deeply cared about American ideals but was also willing to call out the nation in order to live up to those words, all men are created equal. So a much lighter example that I did want to highlight are some of the people who are traveling here for the FIFA World Cup because we've kind of gotten a glimpse of that outsider perspective from people who are here from other countries and they're just blown away with how amazing America is. And it's been honestly

[00:31:03] really encouraging to see. I have a little clip. This is from an interview that NBC did. They interviewed Sebastian, who is here from Germany for the World Cup and he was overcome with emotion at how much he loves America. It's a really fun clip. So let's go ahead and play that one. I fall in love with this country and this was so emotional. I even cried in the stadium. It's a huge departure from what he was expecting before traveling to follow the German soccer team in its World Cup run. To be honest,

[00:31:31] I was a bit scared or had the fear to travel to the United States. News about shootings and criminals and that the country is not safe. Bob takes us home. It's great. America is great. Sebastian met a group of strangers who offered him a ride to his hotel. What is the best city? Boston. That's Bob Sirius and his family. New Englanders who showed a group of Germans that Boston is warmer than some might believe. Bob, thank you. I love you. You are enjoying

[00:32:00] your time in the U.S. to me. I watched the video by myself maybe 40 times. I had tears in my eyes. Sebastian was more upset about the prospect of leaving America than Germany being eliminated from the tournament. So, again, just fun and encouraging and I think actually that goes really nicely with the conversation we just had with Dr. Pryor about kindness because even if you are yourself very patriotic and you're grateful for your country we hear a lot

[00:32:29] of bad news. We hear a lot of people complaining and we do need to strive for a more perfect union all the time and of course as you know you listen to Point of View we don't ignore America's problems we talk about them and we talk about how you can take action and how we can defend liberty and how we can address these problems that we see in our government or you know aren't afraid of criticizing our leaders but it's also nice to get that outsider's perspective and see an example

[00:32:59] of kindness and there are so many examples if you're on social media at all you will have seen that of tourists who are here for the FIFA World Cup and they're saying this is not at all what I expected this isn't what I had seen in the media people here have been so kind and you know kindness as a virtue of course is a lot more than just being kind and showing hospitality to people who are are here who maybe aren't from our nation but it certainly isn't less than that so I just want to say I'm proud of America

[00:33:28] for the way that we have had a positive influence on so many people who are traveling here and it's encouraging it's fun I wanted to share that with you when we come back let's talk about some things that are going to be coming up on the Know Why podcast soon we'll be right back you're listening to Point of View

[00:33:57] your listener supported source for truth so I wanted to give you a preview of what's coming up on the Know Why podcast this week if you haven't already subscribed and followed the Know Why podcast then you should definitely do that so that you don't miss new episodes you can find a link to the website at Point of View's website pointofview.net Know Why podcast is found on YouTube Apple, Spotify anywhere you get your podcasts and it's just one of the many additional media offerings that Point of View offers and makes available so what I did

[00:34:27] for this week's episode is I really wanted to do a deep dive into something that we talked about on Point of View last time I was on the weekend edition so not Friday which of course was a holiday but the weekend edition before that we talked about something that my home state Texas had gone viral for which was including passages of scripture as required reading in Texas public schools now as you can imagine as we talked about this caused a bit of a media hoopla or freak out you might say people wondering is this a violation

[00:34:57] of the establishment clause and we talked about well no it's not but what I did is I actually looked at the requirements I went and found the documentation from the state board of education's agenda and I really did a deep dive into what they're considering or what they're requiring what they approved and why and I encourage you to listen to it because even if you're not in Texas this obviously became a national conversation even the BBC was covering it so it's really an international conversation apparently about why Texas

[00:35:26] is requiring this and as many states respond to what has been really a failure of education technology and a failure in teaching kids how to read books then other states may be revamping their own English language programs and that's what this is so I really wanted to dig into it and as somebody who lives in Texas I am happy with this revamp not primarily because of the Bible passages

[00:35:55] which are included which are a very small part but because of the reason that they're doing this in general and the whole program so let me just give you a little bit of a preview of what that is so this is actually a revamp of again their English program specifically required literary works list approved by the State Board of Education as part of the Texas State English Language Arts and Reading Program so it's very clearly English and the reason is and here's a quote

[00:36:25] from their proposal the proposal would ensure that all students in the state of Texas have the opportunity to read the same literary works I think this is great because this was more common traditionally in education where you had a body of literature or what you might call a canon of literature that most educated people were expected to have read and this didn't mean that they have to agree with all of it or that that was all they were allowed to read but it did give people a kind of

[00:36:55] shared foundation upon which to build their own philosophies or about which to debate and discuss and I think one of the reasons why our nation is so polarized today is because we don't really have that we don't really do that anymore and so I think that the goal even if maybe you want to quibble or nitpick with some of the choices for what they included on the required reading list the goal of having all students in the state of Texas to have a shared basis of literary works as a shared

[00:37:24] foundation I think is so important because so often when we are talking with someone that we might disagree with it's not just that we have a different perspective we're not even talking in the same world like we're not even referencing the same facts the same the same references at all it's like we're completely speaking in different spheres and so having that canon or shared body of literature that people can look back to like we did traditionally in this nation is important now here are some really important things

[00:37:54] and of course I dive into this in much more detail in the podcast episode that's coming out on Wednesday so you get a little bit of a preview but if anybody is concerned then get this the literary works required by this section represent the minimum literary works to be read by or for students in that grade additional literary works to be used in instruction may be selected at the local level well I think this is great because the more control you have at the local level the better and if there are any local school districts

[00:38:24] who say hey you know we we think that this list isn't representative enough we need to have some more authors on there some different perspectives then at the local level they can supplement it this is just the minimum requirement the books that the state of Texas is requiring for students and this starts in the year 2030 by the way so that's a plus here's something else that I love of course we talk about education technology talked about it many times on point of view but it really is a problem because more

[00:38:53] research is showing that kids surprise surprise learn better when they're taking notes by hand as opposed to typing on a screen and to actually retain information better when they're reading physical books instead of on a screen well due to common core requirements and then just the prevalence of ed tech what has happened in a lot of schools is that English class has been reduced to reading just select passages of books instead of whole books on a screen

[00:39:22] so the state of Texas says it is recommended that students read from printed versions of required literary works as opposed to digital copies on digital devices I love that and this is probably one of the most important ones for anybody who has an objection to the fact that the Bible is included a parent retained the right to temporarily remove the parent's child from instruction in a required literary work that conflicts with the parent's religious or moral beliefs so if somebody does have a problem with any of the literary works

[00:39:51] that are required they can pull their child out of that instruction so this should encourage people who are worried because maybe they don't want their kids to read the Bible in English class or read a few verses of the Bible this is also great for Christian parents conservative parents because how many horror stories have we heard from other states where kids were required to read something that violated a family's belief system and they didn't even get a heads up here you can see the entire body of literature that your student if they're in the Texas public schools

[00:40:21] will be required to read from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade so speaking of that what I do in the episode is I go and I look at every single grade level and what exact Bible story or passage they are required to read in the grand scheme of things it's a small percentage because mostly what it comes down to is by grade level they might have to read a few verses or a few chapters of something and then you think okay why is that selected well I did

[00:40:51] an example of a couple of the grade levels where I looked at okay this is the passage of the Bible that is required in this grade level 8th grade 10th grade for example and then I looked at the other works of literature that were required for that grade and what immediately became obvious to me were correlations either thematically or in terms of literary style so clearly there is a theme per grade level that they are going to be discussing and the Bible or the few verses or passages are just one part of that

[00:41:22] thematic or literary discussion so again why does this matter I think it matters because we should care about what our students are reading we are hearing more and more from university professors who are having to cut down their syllabi and reduce expectations because college students are coming into classes never having read a whole book there is a literacy crisis in the nation and so more states are probably going to try to respond to that as they should

[00:41:51] and you may even see more states especially conservative states kind of take more of a classical approach like the state of Texas is doing incorporating a lot of classic works of literature including some Bible passages now it is important to note that there is a past Supreme Court decision school district of Abington Township in Pennsylvania v. Shemp that said you couldn't require students to pray or read the Bible as a devotional act at the beginning of the school day but one of the things in the decision

[00:42:21] was a concurrence where they said that the holding of the court does not foreclose teaching about the Holy Scriptures or about the differences between religious sects and classes in literature or history and that's exactly what the rule in Texas is doing so hopefully that gives you some information and again that's just a preview of what I really dive into in this week's episode of the Know Why podcast so when you're talking about education in your state or maybe advocating for some requirements that you would like to see your state at board

[00:42:50] of education implement you can be educated about what caused such a stir a couple weeks ago in the state of Texas we're out of time but again Kirby will be on tomorrow with a great interview and more news of course thank you Megan and Steve for producing the show today and as always thank you for listening to Point of View many years ago they began saying that we live in the information age well today there is so much information coming at us from every

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