Point of View July 5, 2024 – Hour 2 : Emotionally Healthy Christianity

[00:00:00] The point of view is the need for us to develop good thought patterns and good behavior so that we will be emotionally healthy individuals, emotionally healthy Christians. And so this hour we really are going to devote some time and attention to that because of

[00:00:37] a new book that's come out, Emotionally Healthy Christianity, Following in the Psychological Footsteps of Christ. It has a whole section on emotionally healthy Christianity, then 12 Habits of Emotionally Healthy Christians. But then the last half of the book is basically a workbook that you can work through.

[00:00:55] So when you purchase the book, you not only get the material but you have an immediate opportunity to begin to apply it. And it is written by a good friend, Dr. Chris Thurman, is an individual that we've known for quite some time.

[00:01:10] He's a psychologist, a best-selling author, popular speaker. He's really wanted to help Christians develop a healthy view of the world and to apply it to their lives. Probably best known for his bestseller, which is entitled The Lives We Believe. And I was looking it up.

[00:01:28] I remember I did a week of radio programs back in 1996 on his book Self-Help, Self-Deception. Interestingly enough, that was like what, 27 years ago? So I've known him for some time, appreciated the work that he has done. And this new book, I think you're going to find very helpful.

[00:01:46] So welcome back, Dr. Chris Thurman. It's going to be great to be with you. Thank you for having me on the program. You've been involved, of course, as a psychologist and a counselor for so many years.

[00:01:57] And so respect, because this is why you wanted to help people understand that. But you begin with, I think, something that should get people's attention. And that is the argument that Jesus was the only perfectly sane person to ever walk the planet.

[00:02:14] So when we talk about becoming emotionally healthy Christians, we have a model, and that's Jesus Christ. That's right. Understandably, we talk about Christ's moral perfection, and that's appropriate and wise for us to look at him that way.

[00:02:33] But this book really came about because I was just as enamored, if you will, with the fact that he is psychologically perfect. And therefore, by modeling our lives after him psychologically, we can grow in Christ and experience greater maturity and loving other people over time.

[00:02:57] And again, as you said, we tend to look at the model of Christ in terms of his teaching and his behavior. Sometimes we don't think about it in terms of a psychological issue.

[00:03:07] But then that brings us to the second chapter, and that is, I love the way you put it, a broken soul can't fix a broken soul. And you even quote from Dr. Daniel Amen, don't believe everything you hear, even in your

[00:03:21] own mind, because the reality is that we have self-talk that is destructive. We are broken people, and if we are going to help others, whether it's in our family, in our churches, in our sphere of influence, we've got to develop some of these healthy

[00:03:39] patterns in our own, because we really can't take people much further than we've gone ourselves. I think that's right, Kirby. I think that when I look back on my walk with the Lord, I can see that a lot of what I did

[00:03:55] was biblically what they would call laboring in the flesh, meaning laboring in my own power, using my own mind to try to help myself grow and mature. And so in that second chapter, I just try to drive home the idea that our thinker, for

[00:04:16] lack of a better way to put it, is radically broken from the time that we get here all the way through to the end. And that's why we're told to lean not on our own understanding, turn to the Holy Spirit

[00:04:29] for help to become more like Christ in how we are morally, psychologically, and other ways. Unless God builds the house, we labor in vain. So I think we need to really quit trying to grow psychologically or spiritually apart from the Holy Spirit's power to help us get there.

[00:04:49] Well, let's talk about that, because one of the other sections in your book is what you call Holy Spirit 101. And it does seem to me that we try to heal ourselves individually, and I want to come

[00:05:03] back to the idea that you really intend for this to be a workbook and maybe something you do with another individual. But we also try to do it in the flesh and not in the spirit.

[00:05:14] So even though you're talking about psychology, and we're going to talk in just a minute about the 12 habits of emotionally healthy Christians, you really start out as sort of one of the fundamentals of reminding us how we have to depend on the Holy Spirit. Can you explain that?

[00:05:31] Well, it was interesting, Kirby, that part of the book almost got left out. And I just think the Holy Spirit really nudged me about, hey, you know, I didn't hear an audible voice, but it was pretty clear to me that you've left out me.

[00:05:51] You've left out my power. You've left out my grace. And therefore, you know, this third chapter on the Holy Spirit was just, you know, God prompting me to make sure that I didn't write a book that fundamentally was saying to people,

[00:06:09] work all this psychological salvation out in your own power. And so I'm very thankful that God got my attention and that I, even though I'm not theologically trained in a formal way, I took a stab at trying to outline the different aspects of

[00:06:29] the Holy Spirit's work in our lives and how we don't want to be, keep him at arm's length in terms of how we're trying to make progress while we're here. Talking with Dr. Chris Thurman, and the book is entitled Emotionally Healthy Christianity.

[00:06:44] Just before we take a break though, let's talk about how to use it because the book is kind of half and half. You get about 200, almost 200 pages of content and then about another 150 plus pages of a workbook.

[00:06:56] And you've suggested, of course, individuals can go through this individually, but as the Bible says, as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. You really think that this would be the best resource to maybe go through with other individuals,

[00:07:12] with a trusted friend or maybe even a small group? I did write it so that an individual could go through it by themselves, but I think it's even more powerful and helpful if people will go through it in a group.

[00:07:28] I really do believe in iron sharpens iron, so I think it's important that people read the book in small groups. I wrote it for use in churches in terms of Sunday school classes and community groups.

[00:07:44] And so that was really important to me, and I'm often struck in my own life about the challenge, be doers and not just hearers only. And if some people are like me, they have a real willingness and interest in learning

[00:07:59] new things, but putting it to use, applying it, that's the hard part. And I think that's why the workbook is an essential aspect of this book in terms of helping people put things to use.

[00:08:14] Let's take a break, and when we come back, we're going to work our way through the 12 habits of emotionally healthy Christians. You might want to number one to 12, and we'll do our best to cover as many of all of those

[00:08:24] we can because as we go through this, you will see that first of all, we use Jesus as a model. Then Chris, of course, gives us some examples from his own counseling, a case study, and

[00:08:36] then gives you a direction on how to begin to become that emotionally healthy Christian that God wants you to be. We'll take a break and continue our conversation with Dr. Chris Thurman right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] One book that documents the Judeo-Christian foundations of America is the book On Two Wings written by Michael Novak. He is the author of more than 30 books and was awarded the million dollar Templeton Prize for progress in religion.

[00:09:14] In his preface, he says, although I've wanted to write this book for some 40 years, my own ignorance stood in the way. It took me a long time, time spent searching up many byways and neglected paths and fighting

[00:09:25] through a great deal of conventional but mistaken wisdom to learn how many erroneous perceptions I had unconsciously drunk in from public discussion. He concludes that most of us grow up these days remarkably ignorant of the hundred men

[00:09:38] most responsible for leading this country into a war of independence and writing our nation's constitution. The way American history has been told for the last century is incomplete. Secular historians have cut off one of the two wings by which the American eagle flies.

[00:09:53] The founding generation established a compact with the God of Israel and relied upon this belief. Their faith is an indispensable part of their story. One example can be found in yesterday's discussion of the Declaration of Independence.

[00:10:06] While secular historians point to John Locke as the source of ideas embodied in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, they usually fail to note the older influence of other authors and the Bible. Before Locke was even born, the pilgrims believed in the consent of the governed, social compacts,

[00:10:23] the dignity of every child of God and political equality. By forcing a secular interpretation on America's founding history, these secular historians ignore the second wing by which the American eagle took flight. It's time to look at the two wings of our history.

[00:10:39] I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Once again, we're privileged to have with us today Dr. Chris Thurman.

[00:11:07] If you'd like to know more about him, we do have a link to drchristherman.com. It's on our website. Don't have to remember all that. And of course the book which you can certainly find perhaps in your local bookstore, but

[00:11:17] if not, we've made it very easy for you to order it. And if you are interested in kind of following along, maybe take some notes, going to look at 12 Habits of Emotionally Healthy Christians.

[00:11:28] And Chris, I think of the way you structure that works very well because you start with a couple of key verses and then you have some quotes from individuals. In this first one, we have Brooker T. Washington and Drake.

[00:11:41] Then you have a case in point, usually taking something from your own counseling experience. And then finally you point us to Jesus and the example that he sets for us with some final thoughts.

[00:11:53] So it's a very good structure which allows you in a short amount of time to kind of take an assessment of where you are. And if you want to get into more detail, the last half of the book is a series of lessons based upon these various chapters.

[00:12:10] So let's get into the first one. And that one I think would surprise people immediately. I think to serve. I have in the past sometimes said that when people come in for counseling, they say, I

[00:12:22] have all these needs and nobody loves me and I really need to have some people appreciate me. And usually a counselor says, well then you need to go out and minister to people. You need to go out and serve people. And they go, no, you don't understand.

[00:12:35] I have these needs. No. As you begin to serve, I think you will begin to actually become an emotionally healthy person. And so explain that for just a minute, because that's the first one in your list. Well I think it's the most important one of the 12.

[00:12:54] And my thinking on this, I'm always reminded of that verse where it says that Christ came to serve not to be served. And that's staggering. I mean, that's absolutely staggering that God would take human form, which is amazing

[00:13:10] in and of itself, and then be down here washing our feet, healing us, listening to us. So I think if you're going to be an emotionally healthy Christian, you absolutely have to try to move away from an unhealthy preoccupation with your own needs.

[00:13:31] Now I don't tell my clients to ignore their own needs. I don't think that's any healthier. But I do try to get people to take a more balanced perspective of, hey, why don't we do this?

[00:13:44] Why don't we go out into the world every day seeking to serve, looking for ways we can serve other people, and then trust the holy God that he's going to have that come back our direction in some way.

[00:13:57] So a healthy Christian has that attitude of, I'm going to try to beat other people to the punch, meet their needs. I'm not going to be resistant to them meeting mine, but I'm not going to make it all about my needs being met.

[00:14:12] And again, one of the challenges that came from President John F. Kennedy is, again, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. So whether it's in the political realm, whether it's in the spiritual realm, whether it's

[00:14:28] in terms of some of these emotional issues, I think, of course, we have this wonderful statement in Matthew 20, verse 28, that Jesus did not come to be served but to serve. So that is the first of our 12.

[00:14:41] Let's look at a second one, and that is to view reality accurately. It does seem to me that as a counselor, and you can certainly share some of the experiences you've had over the years, that oftentimes we don't necessarily see the world carefully

[00:14:58] and correctly unless we look through a biblical lens. And so in some respects, Jesus is calling for us to, as we see in Philippians 4, 8, Paul tells us to focus on those things that are too noble, right, and pure.

[00:15:12] But Jesus also calls upon us to recognize that He is the truth, and that you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Yeah, I think this is another absolutely critical attribute of an emotionally healthy follower of Christ.

[00:15:31] In my world as a psychologist, to the degree that people aren't seeing reality accurately, we think of them as struggling with greater degrees of mental illness. So in this chapter, I try to drive home the idea that I think permeates Scripture, which

[00:15:50] is what's going on between your ears, the tapes that are playing every day, the view that you take out with you into the world is going to make or break you.

[00:16:00] And the enemy is the father of lies, and his desire is to sift you by getting you to believe things that are not true because garbage in, garbage out. Your thoughts can only take you so far.

[00:16:14] And if they are erroneous, unbiblical, irrational, and out of touch with reality thoughts, then it's going to be pretty bad in terms of emotional health, closeness with other people, spiritual growth and formation.

[00:16:28] To the degree that we take thoughts captive, to the degree that we work on developing the mind of Christ, to the degree that you mentioned earlier, we think on what's true, lovely, pure, and worthwhile, then we are engaging with the Holy Spirit in the renewal of our minds.

[00:16:45] And this is why over 30 years ago I wrote the book, The Lies We Believe. I wanted there to be a book available to believers that goes into the faulty tapes that are really destructive, what Scripture has to say about them, and a workbook to go with it.

[00:17:04] You have been kind enough over the years to let me talk about these books that I've written on stinking thinking. So that's where those books came from. Maybe one more before we take a break.

[00:17:15] We've talked about, number one, to seek to serve, number two, to view reality accurately, number three, to take appropriate responsibility. This is something that is important for counselors. It's important for individuals that if they go to AA or a variety of other places, there

[00:17:36] is a real need for you to take responsibility. And that, I think, is an important aspect of healthy spiritual growth as well as emotional growth. Absolutely. People make two fundamental mistakes on this one, Kirby. They either take too much responsibility or they take too little.

[00:17:57] So some people, they are out there and they feel responsible for everything. All the problems of the world, they walk around with a knot in their stomach about what they need to make sure they fix or repair or remedy in other people's lives.

[00:18:15] And the other end of the continuum is taking too little. And these are the folks that blame their emotions and their behavior on others. That guy riding my bumper is making me mad. That's a person not taking enough responsibility.

[00:18:31] And either way, the enemy is fine because he's the deceiver. And so when you're taking too much, he's fine with that because that's emotionally disturbing. And when you won't take enough, then you're out there on the planet and causing damage and problems everywhere you go.

[00:18:49] So again, we have a book that I think you're going to find very helpful because it looks at these various habits. And then at the very end, you have 16 different lessons. And as we've already worked through three of those, each one of those lessons we might

[00:19:07] just talk about for a minute, Chris, really takes you through a series of questions that you ask and have people rate it. Then have a chance to write some material. And then at the end, you even have some recommended readings.

[00:19:23] So if you find yourself saying, well, I'd like to dig deeper into that particular issue, you have a lot of resources there as well. So as we mentioned just a minute ago, this is really intended to be something that you can work through individually.

[00:19:40] But let me also commend it to you as a wonderful way in which you can maybe work through with a trusted friend or other individuals. And for those of you that are maybe looking for something that you would like to use in

[00:19:54] a small group or a Bible study, I think you could actually take weeks to go through this. There are first three chapters we've talked about. Then of course you have the 12 chapters of the 12 Habits of Emotionally Healthy People, some final comments about walking in Christ's psychological footsteps.

[00:20:12] And each one of those 12 habits along with a few others are the 16 lessons at the end. So some great material that I think would be very helpful for you as well. So if you've been kind of taking some notes, we've talked about seek to serve, view reality

[00:20:29] accurately and then take appropriate responsibility. We come back, we'll deal with a couple of others. Play gratification properly, listen wholeheartedly, forgive and seek forgiveness, face problems head on, anchor worth in God, have compassion, grow in self-awareness, handle anger well and agape love neighbors.

[00:20:54] There are a series of various endorsements of this book. Many of the people endorsing the book have been on this program with us in the past. And so if you find yourself saying, you know, I really need to deal with some of these issues

[00:21:08] in my life and I would like to be able to go through that systematically. This would I think be something I would highly recommend to you. Whether you're in counseling or not, you can find yourself being able to help yourself

[00:21:22] to deal with some of the emotional health that I think we all should have as we follow Christ. We'll be right back. From that point of view, we believe there is power in prayer.

[00:21:35] And that is why we have relaunched our Pray for America campaign, a series of weekly emails to unite Americans in prayer for our nation. Imagine if hundreds of thousands of Americans started praying intentionally together on a weekly basis.

[00:21:55] You can help make that a reality by subscribing to our Pray for America emails. Just go to pointofview.net and click on the Pray for America banner that's right there on the homepage. Each week you'll receive a brief news update, a specific prayer guide and a free resource

[00:22:16] to equip you in further action. We encourage you to not only pray with us each week, but to share these prayers and the resources with others in your life. Join the movement today. Visit pointofview.net and click on the banner Pray for America right there at the top.

[00:22:37] That's pointofview.net. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in our land. Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again is Kirby Anderson. Back once again with Dr. Chris Thurman. The book is entitled Emotionally Healthy Christianity, Following in the Psychological Footsteps of Christ and if you just joined us we're talking about the 12 habits of emotionally healthy Christians.

[00:23:27] We've looked at three of those, but Chris I thought we might focus on number four, delay gratification properly. You see of course in Galatians 5 it talks about the fact that we should walk by the spirit and not gratify the desires of the flesh.

[00:23:44] But even psychologists like Scott Peck talk about the fact that delaying gratification is a process of scheduling the pain and pleasure of life in such a way as to enhance the pleasure by meeting and experiencing the pain first and getting over it.

[00:23:59] And there is a wonderful model of course in Jesus in terms of certainly delaying gratification until the proper time and we see this certainly in terms of the temptation that Jesus encountered when Satan came to him in the wilderness.

[00:24:19] So there is a sense in which this is important not only in our spiritual life, but it's also key isn't it in our emotional life as well? Well it is and I don't know very many people Kirby that don't struggle with this, myself included.

[00:24:37] I think God has wired us if you will for pleasure, but I think the way the enemy goes after us is to try to get us to indulge simple forms of pleasure or not put appropriate forms of pleasure off until their proper time.

[00:24:55] So in everybody's life there is this challenge of hey, do certain things have you by the throat in terms of what you default to, to self-medicate emotional pain? How is the whole issue of self-control going?

[00:25:16] I grew up in an unhealthy enough environment that the other extreme was actually the problem in my growing up years, which was if it felt good it must be wrong. And therefore I almost had an unhealthy aversion to enjoying the pleasure of things here on

[00:25:38] earth that God put in front of us. So I do think the challenge of what are we going to do with instant gratification? Are we going to learn to be under the control of the Holy Spirit in terms of being able to say no when we need to?

[00:25:56] And are we going to allow ourselves to experience appropriate pleasure at the appropriate time? So great material in there, but let's keep going because another one is the idea of listening wholeheartedly. Of course we should be of course quick to listen, slow to speak.

[00:26:14] That's of course in James. But you even talk about the idea that Jesus listened with his third ear. We're not good at listening and that is I think a very key part of it.

[00:26:25] But also not only listening to what is said but what is not said to be intuitive, to be empathetic. There's a lot of aspects of that isn't there? There are. And the concept of the third ear is something I stole from when I was in graduate school.

[00:26:44] It's the idea that we are, if we're going to be really good listeners, we have to listen for what's not being said. We have to listen for the potential meaning behind certain things that are being said.

[00:26:59] I think we live in a day and age where people fundamentally don't feel like they are given a good listening to and that most people are just biding their time until they can talk when they're with you. And this was a surprising one to make the list of 12.

[00:27:17] I didn't see this coming until I was halfway through the book and it really hit me. You know, the psychological health of Christ was personified by many things, but can you imagine what it would be like to be with him and to feel that you have somebody's deep,

[00:27:37] undivided, compassionate, empathic listening that they're offering to you? No wonder people were just absolutely thunderstruck by his, for lack of a better way to put it, his emotional intelligence, his ability to listen, to die to self and to really listen to you.

[00:27:58] So to me, this is another important habit of emotionally healthy Christians. The next one probably would make some sense because after all we've talked about the issue of forgiveness and had a number of guests on the program over the years talking about that.

[00:28:14] But again, to bear with one another, to forgive one another, to be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other. There are so many verses that encourage us to forgive. But as I've said before, Chris, you may not necessarily feel like you want to forgive,

[00:28:32] but you should forgive if for no other reason for your own mental health. And I recognize that that can come off sounding very cavalier in light of some of the evil that has been perpetrated against you or some of the abuse that you've faced.

[00:28:47] But you're never going to be a healthy individual if you don't learn to forgive. That's absolutely true. There's that famous quote that many people have taken credit for, which is, Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.

[00:29:07] So there's a real challenge in our lives to do both sides of this particular street. Number one, to forgive others who have wounded us. And we're commanded in Scripture to do that. It's not something that we're supposed to leave up to whether or not we feel like it

[00:29:25] or even whether or not the person is sorry. We are commanded to forgive. The other side of that street is we wound other people. And I think there are times that we need to humble ourselves and go seek somebody's forgiveness

[00:29:40] for what we did wrong that was injurious to them. Now, this is the one chapter of the book where Christ only fit half of that equation because he never sinned, so he never had to seek anybody else's forgiveness.

[00:29:58] So given that that was the way he was, he was in forgiveness mode the whole time he was here. But again, because he never sinfully hurt anybody, he never had to seek their forgiveness. Good point.

[00:30:11] One other one before we take a break, and that is face problems head on. Of course, in Matthew 6 we have, Do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will have worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

[00:30:25] And there's certainly a lot of wisdom in recognizing that we just cannot ignore certain issues. We cannot ignore certain problems, and we really are challenged to face some of those problems head on if we're going to be emotionally healthy individuals.

[00:30:42] Well, I think the enemy is wise enough to know that when you run from problems, they only get worse. And that's his effort to kill, steal and destroy. So you know, that little noise under the hood of your car that would have been 300 bucks

[00:30:58] if you had taken it in the next day is three grand a month later. That little noise in the marriage that needed to be dealt with becomes a huge marital conflict. So there is a reality on planet Earth of you're going to run into problems.

[00:31:16] You know, you can't go out there on the planet every day and not have difficult, painful things come your way. That's not the issue. The issue is, are you going to square up with them? Are you going to take them on?

[00:31:29] Metaphorically, are you going to go up to Goliath and deal with him rather than tuck tail and run? So the enemy wants us to run because our lives just get even more chaotic and destructive.

[00:31:40] God wants us to have the courage in Christ to square up with each day's problems so that we can hit the pillow at night and know that we did everything we could and then wake up semi-refreshed for the next day.

[00:31:53] Again, the book is entitled Emotionally Healthy Christianity, following in the psychological footsteps of Christ. And we've talked about us seek to serve and view reality accurately and take appropriate responsibility, delay gratification properly, listen wholeheartedly, forgive and seek forgiveness and face problems head on.

[00:32:16] Come back from the break, we'll see if we can cover at least a few others. Anchor your worth in God, have compassion, grow in self-awareness, handle anger well, and even this idea of agape love of neighbors.

[00:32:29] We'll cover as many as we can, but if you find yourself saying this would be something that would be very helpful to you, this is a book that you can certainly go through individually in which it has some introductory chapters really kind of setting the standard, which

[00:32:45] is of course is Jesus Christ. Then talking about 12 habits of emotionally healthy Christians and then an ending chapter just talking about walking in Christ's psychological footsteps. And then this I think is relatively unique because instead of buying a workbook, the

[00:33:04] last half of the book is a workbook with 16 different chapters addressing each one of those particular topics as well as a couple of other things that would be helpful for you as you are growing.

[00:33:17] So we're going to come back and pick out a couple more of those issues, but if you find yourself interested in this book, we have an opportunity for you to order it. You probably could find it in your local bookstore.

[00:33:28] Of course, we have a link to Chris Thurman's website as well. All of it available at our website at pointofview.net talking about emotionally healthy Christianity and we'll continue right after this. New data from the Gallup organization finds just less than half of US adults describing

[00:34:00] themselves as religious. In the same survey, 33% said they are spiritual but not religious and 18% are neither. It's increasingly apparent that we live in a post-Christian society. As Sam Chan explains, this is why evangelism is so scary and awkward.

[00:34:17] What worked in the age of Christendom seems ineffective in our post-Christian age. In his book, How to Talk About Jesus Without Being That Guy, Dr. Chan suggests listening closely to people to hear where they're coming from culturally, emotionally, and existentially

[00:34:32] and then appropriating their language to show them that Jesus is the one they're looking for. The Apostle Paul did that. Acts 17 recounts his speech to the Areopagus. These were Athenian philosophers who would gather at a hilltop called the Areopagus or Mars Hill.

[00:34:48] This place for discussion was the marketplace of society where men traded in ideas. Like Paul, we should think about evangelism as beginning where people are physically and also intellectually and spiritually. Our guide through Greece, David Sparks, emphasized that our message should be captivating, relevant

[00:35:06] to the times and to each person's needs and mindset. Paul told the Areopagus he could see they were very religious. He mentioned their altar bearing the inscription to the unknown God. He proceeded to explain who this God is, that he is our creator and that he is actually

[00:35:22] not far from each one of us. Pastor Sparks said Paul used an old and frequent pattern in the Greek language when he proclaimed, In him we live and move and have our being. Paul's love for people fueled his concern that they were trapped in the idolatries of

[00:35:36] the day. Today, our idols are different. We must be sensitive as we point them out. We can follow Paul's pattern for evangelism in a pagan society. For Point of View, I'm Penna Dexter. You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported source for truth.

[00:36:00] To continue our conversation with Dr. Chris Thurman, the book is entitled Emotionally Healthy Christianity. Let's see if we can take a phone call. We'll go to Alabama First. Cindy, thank you for calling today. Hi, Dan. This is Cindy.

[00:36:14] I just wanted to know, have you in the book dealt with a person committed immorality for more than several years after coming to the Lord? It seems there's a lot of condemnation on me. Have you gone through that in the book?

[00:36:33] Again, that's a question because just because we forgive doesn't mean that there isn't consequences for all of that, Chris. Yeah, I do. Not so much directly, Cindy, but I do go into that to some degree in the chapter on anchor your worth in God.

[00:36:55] Whenever we or anyone else does something immoral, the enemy wants us to move in the direction of self-condemnation, self-hatred, shame, and so on. What we are to do in those moments is to go to God and allow God to remind us that we

[00:37:12] are fearfully and wonderfully made image bearers, that we are His beloved, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ, and to really accept that and allow that to be the tapes that are playing in our mind.

[00:37:28] And then, of course, neither do I condemn you but go and sin no more. So there is that element of, I need you, I want you to repent of this life.

[00:37:39] So that to me is the balance, is anchor your worth in God and really go to Him for the forgiveness that's there, and then with His power work really hard to move in a healthier direction. And again, that's one of the 12 habits of an emotionally healthy Christian, anchoring

[00:37:56] your worth in God, in terms if you're dealing with your actions but if you're dealing with somebody's actions against you, just because we forgive doesn't necessarily mean that that eliminates the need for them if they've violated laws and other things to go to jail or deal

[00:38:13] with that criminally. So I think it really provides a good balance. And I thought maybe we'd cover just a few of the other very important issues here of emotionally healthy Christians, and one is to have compassion.

[00:38:26] Now in some respects that's almost like the first one we talked about, seek to serve. A lot of people think, no I need to have people serve me, and no you need to serve others.

[00:38:38] And I think there are people thinking, well I need to have people be more compassionate towards me because I'm really struggling as a victim. And that may be true, but you're actually talking about the other idea that we should

[00:38:51] have compassion, and Jesus of course gives us a great demonstration of that because in Matthew 9 it says, when he saw the crowds he had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd.

[00:39:07] So again our model for an emotionally healthy Christian is Jesus, and Jesus showed compassion. That's right, and you know Kirby I think anytime somebody says, hey I need to be served or I need compassion too, I think we need to accept that and take that at face value.

[00:39:30] We can still put in the other side of that coin which is we're also commanded to have compassion for others. So let's go out there, try to feel empathically and kindly and compassionately where others are at, have compassion for their suffering. Sure do we need it as well?

[00:39:53] Yes, but you know again to me an emotionally healthy Christian goes out there and tries to metaphorically beat others to the punch and therefore trust God to circle back around and meet their needs as well. Let's talk about a few others. Grow in self-awareness.

[00:40:12] We read of course in Jeremiah 17 that the heart is deceitful above all things beyond cure who can understand it. We deceive ourselves and it again gets back to seeing the world clearly but also seeing ourselves clearly through the lens of scripture.

[00:40:29] Yeah, this was another chapter Kirby that made the list that was kind of surprising to me that came on board while I was writing the book. And it just, I think what struck me is how so many of us, again me included, have a hard

[00:40:49] time with facing our blind spots. You know that we walk around if we're not careful in denial about the things that are defective or flawed in us or we justify them as well it's okay that I'm that way.

[00:41:06] But the point in this chapter is look, you can't be all that healthy of a follower of Christ if you're walking around fundamentally in denial about the good, the bad and the ugly that's there.

[00:41:21] And that's why we need to be in fellowship with other believers, getting feedback on what they see about us that we don't see about ourselves and thus grow to become more self-aware over time.

[00:41:32] One last one I thought I would just certainly focus on the one of anger, one because you have been so vulnerable over the years. As a matter of fact this story takes you all the way back to when you were just a young

[00:41:44] kid playing baseball five or six. But whether people read your book, The Lies We Believe or read this chapter on Handle Anger Well, you are a fellow traveler and just remind us again that Jesus was angry at the right time towards the right people in the right way.

[00:42:02] So we're not to always avoid anger but there is a place for that, certainly a righteous anger but in most cases we violate that principle as well, don't we? We do. I think this is another emotion that a lot of believers get taught badly about, as if

[00:42:23] all anger is sin and that's not biblical. As you said, Christ was angry at the money lenders in the temple for example. The challenge for us given that we are finite fallen human beings is that anger is especially conducive to sinfully reacting out of it.

[00:42:42] I think that's why the Bible says, be angry but sin not. So we really need some help when we get angry, learn how to count to a thousand if we need to, try to play the correct tapes in our head before we react, buy ourselves a little time,

[00:43:00] get some input from other people about whether or not we're making a mountain out of a mole hill or taking something personally. But anger is a big ticket struggle for a lot of us and I know it has been for me.

[00:43:11] I might just mention the last one which we've already mentioned was the idea of loving your neighbors having agape love and so that at least completes the twelve. But again, I just think Chris, the way you've put this book together, individuals that maybe

[00:43:26] want to address a particular issue in their life or maybe they're just looking for a ten thousand mile wheel alignment, this book really allows you to go through it individually but I might really commend it as I just mentioned to you earlier to some people that maybe would

[00:43:42] like to teach this in a group since you have all of the various lessons in the back and so it's just a great resource that you have made available so that we can begin to re-evaluate

[00:43:55] how we are doing spiritually and emotionally, especially as we are following in the, as you call it, the psychological footsteps of Christ. So always appreciated your books, always appreciate the good work that you do and

[00:44:08] thank you so much for writing the book and thank you for giving us an hour today here on Point of View. Kirby, thank you so much. I appreciate being on your program. Again one last time, this book is entitled Emotionally Healthy Christianity, Following

[00:44:23] in the Psychological Footsteps of Christ, Twelve Habits of Emotionally Healthy Christians, also some introductory material on Emotionally Healthy Christianity, Walking in Christ's Psychological Footsteps and then the last half of the book, just an entire workbook that

[00:44:40] you can use to evaluate where you are and to begin to make some of the mid-course corrections that you would want to make and so I think you're going to find it very helpful especially if you're dealing with this issue of emotional health.

[00:44:55] So again, this is one of the reasons we cover these kinds of issues here on Point of View, talking about emotional health so that we can walk in emotional health as we follow Jesus Christ and you've been listening to Point of View.

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