Point of View January 30, 2025 – Hour 1 : Between Borders, Concerns about RFK Jr.

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View. And welcome to Point of View. I'm Merrill Matthews sitting in for Kirby Anderson today. We've got an exciting show. We're going to start out talking with Lonnie Norris about his new film, Between Borders. And it's about Christian refugees in Russia.

[00:00:34] Then we're going to turn to Tim Chapman. He's president of Advancing American Freedom. That's the group that Mike Pence started after he left the office of vice president. They have taken a position against Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as head of HHS, and we want to talk to him about why they've taken that position. And then the last hour, we're going to turn to John Hood. He has a long history of being involved in public policy. He's based in North Carolina.

[00:01:01] And he's talking about the split in conservatives. We've got MAGA conservatives out there. We've got sort of traditional Reagan conservatives. We've got a new group of conservatives who are just against anything Trump does. And so we want to talk a little bit about the split there in the conservative movement. But first, we're going to turn to Lonnie. He is he was a businessman. But in the 90s, he and his wife decided to go into missions.

[00:01:26] They are so they left their business. They went to Russia to start a church there in Russia, a church of the Nazarene. And he also then he founded a film company where they began to make movies. And one of it is based upon what they saw in Russia. It's between borders. He's the executive executive producer of between borders. Lonnie, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me, Merrill.

[00:01:52] Well, let's start out. It's not common for business people to step away from business for a while, go into missions and then create a film company. Tell us a little bit about your history there. Well, I go back to college days when I really felt a call to ministry, but I couldn't really put my finger on it. I just didn't see myself in the pulpit per se. So I just kind of pushed it aside. I said, hey, I'm going to trust. I'm going to I'm going to follow the Lord faithfully as a businessman. I'll be a Sunday school teacher. I'll stay involved in the church.

[00:02:22] But it just wasn't enough. And my wife, early in our relationship and then it was kind of an ongoing thing, would say, you know, I feel like we should be doing something different as well. So that haunted me. And a day came. I feel like God gave me a chance to do something different, maybe a second chance, you might call it. And so we sold the business and and begin to pray about specifics. And one thing led to another. We ended up in Russia, of all places.

[00:02:50] It is a little shocking when you when a professional businessman, I think you're in Fort Wayne, Indiana, says, hey, let's let's go away from this and go to Russia and start a church. How did she and your friends take that? You know, it's an interesting question. My own pastor says, hey, Lonnie, maybe you give this a little more thought. Maybe you just continue to serve the Lord as a businessman and serve missions or support missions. And I had some family members that, you know, our kids were nine, eight, seven to six at the time.

[00:03:17] And in Russia being communist and all that, they thought we were going to get chewed up over there. And so I had some I had literally some family members that kind of blew us off for a while. Yes, you know, you go there after it's you go there after it's left the Soviet Union, I guess. And but in 2019, you start your new production company story was a story like production. So what made you make that choice? I love stories.

[00:03:44] If my kids and my grandkids would say there's one thing I might do pretty well to tell stories. And so I came home from Russia with these these true stories on my shoulders, kind of burdens. And a couple of them, I said, man, those stories need to be told. And there was a production guy in my church. I ran it by him. And next thing we know, we were making our first movie, Pursuit of Freedom. And it led to the second movie that we just just finished and just released.

[00:04:10] So what gave you the idea of going to doing between borders? I mean, it's it's it's a very it's a very well done film. But what gave you the idea to sort of focus on that? You have a lot of stories. Why pick that one? It was a we tried to emphasize the miracle in the courtroom. What the judge did that day in honoring these folks and giving them asylum was really miraculous.

[00:04:36] It also really speaks to the the the the benefit and help of a local church to wrap their arms around this family and help them. And it was just a great, warm story. And we knew this family very, very well. They were involved in our ministry early on in the church. God raised them up using them. And we use them in music. We use them with youth as they got saved and really begin to grow in their faith. And so I wanted to tell their story. It's it's and also there's a history component.

[00:05:03] A lot of people aren't aware of that what took place in the 80s there and between the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians. Right. Yeah. They're Armenian living in Azerbaijan, as I understand it. And talk a little bit about that tension there. Yeah, they were actually born in Azerbaijan, but they were Armenians that their families came from the genocide that took place in the early 1900s. And so they're they're growing up there. They're part of the they're part of the the culture.

[00:05:33] And but a skirmish broke out, which continues continues to break out to this day between our. You know, it was land, you know, land. Armenia felt it was theirs as Bajan felt it was theirs. And the skirmish led to one thing. And then, boy, next thing you know, we want the Armenians out of here. And so this family literally had to pack things up in the middle of night and leave very quickly. And in the process, 30,000, 30,000 people lost their lives and over 200,000 Armenians were displaced.

[00:06:03] There's very few Armenians living in Azerbaijan today. You know, it's an important point because so many people in America seem to think we are the only country that's had issues with racism. But racism is around the globe. It really is. And with this family, they came into Russia. And of course, Russia did provide them refugee status. But still, we saw with our own eyes, they just were looked down on and almost to a dangerous point. I mean, they just had to watch their backs, as we probably point out in the film.

[00:06:32] It wasn't a good environment. And even though they're trusted in the Lord and the Lord was providing for them and they didn't get in major, major problems, it was just not a good a good situation. So you focus on, I guess it's Violetta and Ivan Petrosyan. Is that how you pronounce the last name? That's it. Yeah, perfect. And when they come there, are they Christians as they come into Russia or they find a church there? Tell us about that interaction. Yeah, we, you know, we use creative freedoms.

[00:07:00] I was actually the pastor in the truce that they came to know. Their grandma, grandma came. She loved it. We loved her. She was very known for her incredible poetry. We let her use it sometimes in the church as she wrote spiritual poetry. And she invited her two granddaughters in. And then the granddaughters enticed their mommy and said, hey, they're using English in this service. And mom, you're an English teacher. Come with us. She came as a communist.

[00:07:26] She was a member of the Communist Party, a compassionate, passionate member of the Communist Party. There was a time in her life when she literally stood in front of registered churches and told kids they couldn't go in. And that was her background. She's a school teacher, an English teacher. But she came. And it wasn't long before the lights began to come on. And they all gave their hearts to God. And Ivan was a little bit past or was after that. He was skeptical.

[00:07:56] He thought we were there with an agenda. So he had to be around us a while before he made a decision. When we come back, Lonnie, I want to talk a little bit about your experience there and the struggles that you have trying to be in a church there in Russia. And we want to make sure that people know about where they can go to see the movie. I got to see parts of it. And it's just very, very well done.

[00:08:20] You know, you may not have been a longtime professional movie maker, but you can't tell it from looking at the film. It looks great. So stay with us. We're talking with Lonnie Norris. He is he's the producer of Between Borders. This is a story light production that he has as a former missionary pastor and talking about Christian refugees. So stay with us. We'll be back on point of view.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Senator Rand Paul was on a TV interview with Larry Kudlow to talk about government spending. They began by acknowledging that we have a national debt of $36 trillion and a fiscal budget that needs to be brought under control. Senator Paul believes that the best benchmark is to only spend what comes into the federal treasury. But that hasn't happened in decades.

[00:09:23] But he suggested the first place to start would be to cut the hundreds of thousands of dollars allocated to study whether lonely rats use more cocaine than well-adjusted socialized rats. Or Senator Paul suggested we might cut the money allocated to study whether Japanese quail on cocaine are more sexually promiscuous. With a bit of sarcasm, he suggested there are a few things we might be able to cut.

[00:09:46] Of course, these aren't large cuts, which is why Larry Kudlow wanted to know if it were possible to save the money by not spending funds allocated but never used for COVID or the Inflation Reduction Act or even the CHIPS bill. Senator Paul responded there is a way to do this. It's called rescission. It was tried once in the Trump administration to send back $15 billion in unspent funds, but there were two Republicans who did not vote for it.

[00:10:11] He is convinced that perhaps now you could get 50 Republicans to vote for rescission and cut $500 billion. The other idea they discussed was impounding funds, but the Supreme Court ruled against President Nixon doing that. This current court might be willing to consider the process of impounding funds since it was done for 100 years before the court ruled against Nixon in 1975. There are ways to cut federal spending. Let's see if Congress has the will to do so. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view of anti-Semitism, go to viewpoints.info slash anti-Semitism. Viewpoints.info slash anti-Semitism. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. And welcome back to Point of View. My guest for this next segment is Lonnie Norris.

[00:11:08] He is the founder of Storylight Productions, a film company in 2019, and the executive producer of a new film, their newest film, Between Borders. And Lonnie, you mentioned that you go to Russia as a pastor. When did you go, and what was your experience? Were you persecuted, or was there an openness to the gospel? When we went in 93, there was some credibility with the American populace.

[00:11:35] And so we got an audience at that point in time. It changed while we were there, but early on, we could gather a crowd, and we did. And early on, I thought I was going to argue with atheists and communists and agnostics and et cetera, et cetera. But really, what we found was there was a lot of Russians who believed, who believed in God. They never opened the scriptures because they didn't have access to Bibles.

[00:12:01] And we gathered, I remember early on, we studied the book of John. And in the first chapter of John, he makes it very clear, those who believe and receive makes that distinction, have the power to become children of God. And so when we shared with them, hey, you believe, but have you received? It was like the lights came on, and there was quite a response to the gospel in those early days. But you say that changed after a while. It did.

[00:12:27] And within two or three years, you know, the Americans were doing things in Kosovo and some places that weren't very popular. And so we became very unpopular very quickly. And also the government, you know, early on, we could rent buildings and have, you know, have worship services and teach. That changed as well, where it became really, really hard to do that. So we were moving around all the time. Oh. So what's the central theme of your film Between Borders?

[00:12:54] I would say Between Borders is, you know, it's an immigration story that hopefully emphasizes that God is still in the miracle, miracle doing business, if you want to call it that. I think we emphasize the love and strength of a healthy family, the dynamics of a healthy family, which is the case in the Petrosan's life. Also the church family.

[00:13:20] Hopefully people can see, man, this church family embraced this couple or this family, put their arms around them, helped them in the transition, supported them in the courtroom battle, as I would call it. And also, hopefully people go away with a little more empathy, empathy for those that cross our paths and aren't as fortunate as us.

[00:13:41] You know, it's an important point now because as we are clamping down on immigration in the United States, from my own standpoint, there are refugees out there who have serious issues. Some of them have been promised to come because, say, for instance, in Afghanistan, they helped Americans while they were in Afghanistan, while we were in Afghanistan. Right. And so I have a certain sympathy for some of these refugees who really do struggle and had, in some cases, promises to come.

[00:14:09] And my heart goes out to them. Among the various type of people who want to come, they're sort of my most sympathetic group. I understand that. I agree. I don't want to judge any of these immigrants that are here. We just got to figure out the big question, what would Jesus do? And, you know, that's a hard one. I want to help those that come across my path.

[00:14:34] You know, I'm haunted by the scripture that says we're God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. So I believe out on our journey, there's these good works, these good deeds that we got to do. And that probably involves other people from other walks of life. So I've got to be open to what God wants to do. So how many stories are there? Are there other stories like Violetta and Ivan there in Russia? There are. There really is.

[00:15:03] Tell us about some of those. Well, I think of of Yuri and Natasha. He was a drop down in the gutter drunk. She was following the hair of Krishna. Their lives were they were on the brink of divorce. And she came to Bible study, invited him to come. And literally within a few weeks, God miraculously saved him from alcohol. And he is a church pastor administrator to this day.

[00:15:31] It's an incredible, miraculous story early on in their lives. If I remember right, alcoholism is a huge problem in Russia, isn't it? Oh, oh, you know, in the small villages. I mean, the number of men particularly, it's women as well. It's about 80% of the men in those small villages have an alcohol problem, moving to alcohol. And we saw it firsthand. It's just a horrendous problem. And I think it's a little better today because there's been more education in that regard,

[00:16:01] but it's still a horrendous problem there. People don't have hope. Oh, yeah, yeah. Violetta and Ivan eventually come to the United States. How does that happen? That's what the film's about, is if they're going through that process. Yeah. They came over, they were asked to visit, and when they got here, their stomachs turned to knots, and he just said, I'm not going back. I just, you know, he felt this release of pressure. Nobody watching over his back. People, he said, people are actually smiling at me on the streets. What's that about?

[00:16:30] And so they just felt like, let's go before a judge in a timely manner and plead our case and let the chips fall as they may. And in this case, the Lord intervened, and they got asylum. What kind of persecution might they have suffered if they had stayed in Russia? Well, the kids were bullied on a regular basis. Because they were not Russian or because they were Christian? Yeah. No, because, well, Violet was a school teacher, and when she got saved, it was a combination of both.

[00:17:00] She's Armenian, now she's preaching. She was an evangelist. I'm talking, brought in the kids from school. She also brought in an incredible group of Chinese students that were studying there, and many of them, you know, found the Lord in our Bible studies. And so consequently, because of their faith and because they were Armenian, they just, they felt, they fell under a lot of persecution. Different kinds, the bullying. And Ivan drove a bus, and he literally had to carry a pipe around with him

[00:17:29] for fear that somebody was going to knock his block off. And thank goodness that didn't happen, but it really easily could have because that was what was going on at the time. Are evangelicals typically harassed in Russia? I would say not in most towns or cities. However, the new law puts a major pressure on, the Russian cannot invite somebody to church. Hmm.

[00:17:58] Cannot be in their conversation. Now, if somebody says, hey, what do you do? I go to church. That's different. But if they were caught now in this, with this new law, inviting somebody to church, they could be in trouble for that. When I go over, I haven't been there for a few years now, I can't preach anymore without them getting in trouble, probably more than me. But, yeah, it's really tightened up in that regard. What do our listeners need to know about refugees who are Christians

[00:18:26] who are trying to get to the United States to avoid this sort of persecution? Well, I think that we should have open hearts. And, you know, right now there's a lot of Ukrainians. In fact, I'm pretty involved with the Ukrainians as a result of the war. We've got about 100 in our area that have come, and we're working with several families. In fact, our church has reached out and actually has allowed them to start their own church in our building. But I just think we've got to have open hearts and open minds

[00:18:54] and be thankful for what we've got and believe that we're stewards of what we've got and it needs to flow from us into other people's lives. And sometimes that's somebody from a different walk of life and from a different part of the world. Are there groups here that you know about who sort of work to welcome Christians who are coming in from other countries where they were persecuted? Wow. I don't know of any specific groups. I think there are groups.

[00:19:23] Like in Fort Wayne, Indiana, we're literally helping and we have sponsored over 100 Ukrainians in our area that were in the path of war. And there's groups like that all over the place. And I would also say the Catholic Social Services, of course, again, I don't know where their funds all come from, but they've got support at least in our area to help get some of the basic things, some of the grants

[00:19:50] and the benefits that are available to the refugees that are coming in from Ukraine right now. Lonnie, we've got about a minute left. Tell us, tell people how they can see your film, how they can find it. Well, right now you can't see it. It was in the theater through Tuesday night. So it's kind of in a lull right now. It will be on Angel.com soon and other streaming entities probably in March, April, May. It'll be available for the public. And take just a few seconds.

[00:20:19] We've highlighted a number of Christian films, but there is a real growing market for Christian films these days. There is. And the challenge is, just like our film, we've gotten really good reviews, but it's really, really hard without major budgets to get people to the theater. And that's okay. I mean, if you can get them, see it in the church, which this will go through churches sooner or later as well. We've even got some Sunday school lessons that have been written around this film.

[00:20:50] But in the church or on a streaming venue where they can see it, that's great as well. But we can use the support. If you like these kind of films and want to see more of them and support it, that's the way you know how. Well, Lonnie, thank you so much for joining us. If our listeners want to know more about that, we have a link to Storylight Productions on our website at pointofview.net. And you can go there and I encourage you to do that and reach out, find out more about these films because we need to support these films. Lonnie, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:21:20] Thank you very much. Thanks for what you're doing to share the truth. And we'll be back on Point of View after the break. The Bible tells us not to worry. And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today. Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry. God gives us a next step. He says we need to pray.

[00:21:48] But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult. And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation. Each week you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans, along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:22:13] We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand. Will you commit to pray for America? Go to pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe. Again, that's pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner.

[00:22:40] Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America. Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now here again, Dr. Merrill Matthews. And welcome back to Point of View. Joining me now, Tim Chapman. He is the president of Advancing American Freedom. That's a public policy advocacy group started by Vice President Mike Pence after he left office. And Chapman has been involved in public policy, conservative movement, so forth, for more than two decades. And we're here to talk a little bit about their position on Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Tim, thank you for joining us. Hi, Merrill.

[00:23:39] Thank you for having me. Well, it's Robert F. Kennedy was went before one Senate committee yesterday. He is before the Senate help committee today, I believe. And so he's been getting a grilling in this. And I saw that you, your organization had some concerns about him. So I wanted to explain to us what your concerns are. Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, he's been in front of both committees the last two days. A lot of questions, a lot of conversation.

[00:24:06] Look, at the very big picture here is that we think that the leader of the Health and Human Services Department in a Republican administration should be a pro-lifer. We think that the pro-life movement has been an integral part of the coalition that elected Donald Trump during his first term and then just reelected him for his second term.

[00:24:28] And we think that it's really important that the leader in that department have a proven track record of standing up for the life of the unborn. Look, here's the truth about the leadership, the cabinet secretary of the HHS. And so every day in that position, you're going to be confronted with dozens of decisions, some big, some very small, that have to do in some way, shape or form with the issue of abortion.

[00:24:57] A lot of these decisions are about regulations. A lot of these decisions are about federal funding. And they can seem small, but over the course of four years, a lot of small decisions can become big public policy issues. And I think that, you know, as you're confronted with those decisions, you're far more likely to be an advocate for the pro-life position if it's something that you believe in your DNA.

[00:25:23] And what you see with RFK Jr., despite some very compelling reasons to want to support him, what you see in him is somebody who's been his entire life an advocate for the maximalist pro-choice position, the pro-abortion position.

[00:25:41] So it just concerns us to put somebody in that position there that wouldn't have it as a kind of reflex, you know, already in their DNA to advance pro-life policy. You know, it's an important point because if you were to go out and try to say, give me the picture, give me the model of a person who is going to be pro-choice and anti-pro-life movement, and Robert F. Kennedy would be one of those people.

[00:26:08] So it seems like an odd, just on that aspect, because both J.D. Vance and President Trump have been very, very strong pro-life advocates, it seems like an odd choice for that, just, it just doesn't, it doesn't make a lot of sense, regardless of what some of the other things. Now, Kennedy has tried to moderate his position on this. What do you think about that?

[00:26:35] First, let me just say, as a pro-lifer, I welcome converts. I think that's wonderful. That's the whole point, right? But is he really a convert? Well, that's the question. You know, he says he is, and I think he has really struggled to articulate what he really believes on this issue. And I don't think that, I don't think we want somebody who's learning on the job during this next four years. I think this is a really pivotal four years.

[00:27:02] And, you know, and by the way, and like, think about this. The frontier of pro-life policy now is changing. You know, for 50 years, you know, the pro-life movement was fighting hard to overturn this awful law in Roe versus Wade. And then we finally had it overturned. The fight is different now. If you'll zoom out for a second and just look at one key statistic,

[00:27:30] and that is how many abortions are occurring every year in the United States, that number is not decreasing. And it even ticked up a little bit after Roe. And that's a problem, okay? So, like, what we need to be thinking about as pro-lifers is what are we going to do over the next four years? To be able to look back and say, over those four years, yes, we saved unborn lives. The numbers went down in terms of abortions in this country.

[00:27:59] And one of the questions that's come up frequently at this hearing is about the abortion pill, Mifiglestone. And what is RFK's position on this? And he has consistently said, I do not have a position on this. The president has asked me to look into it. The president does not have a position on it. So I'm going to defer to the president when he makes a decision. A couple problems there. Okay? Again, the number of abortions are going up.

[00:28:28] That's because more people are having access to the abortion pill, and it's becoming a more mainstream way to abort babies. And RFK has said he's going to outsource this to the president. There's a problem here, too. Both Trump and J.D. Vance have said they support the abortion pill. Okay?

[00:28:49] We've got to figure – and what I would like as a pro-lifer is I would like to have somebody in the position of HHS who themselves are as a pro-lifer and who can encourage Vance and encourage Trump to be courageous on this issue and say, look, just because an abortion happens chemically through a pill or surgically in a doctor's office doesn't mean the tragedy is any less. The outcome is the same.

[00:29:16] And so we would like somebody in that position who's in the president's cabinet says, let's find a way to get this under control. This is a really important new frontier in pro-life policy. And it's not okay to just say because it's a chemical abortion, it's different. You know, it's an important point because presidents typically name people, nominate people to be cabinet chairs who have a good deal of knowledge in that particular industry, that particular area.

[00:29:43] And then the president leans on those people to give them advice as to what they should and shouldn't be doing. And may or may not take that advice, but that becomes an important voice in the president's ear. That's exactly right. So that's what we're saying. I mean, look, there are a lot of Americans who are excited about what RFK is saying when it comes to the processed food industry or healthy lifestyles and healthy eating and being able to fix some of the chronic diseases that we have in this country.

[00:30:12] I myself am very supportive of his message on that. I think it's welcome. But that does not mean that you give him the leadership of HHS, which deals with so many other issues, and in particular for us, the issue of abortion.

[00:30:31] And I just think we've got to find a way to – it's okay to say, yes, we like what RFK said on these other issues, but we don't need to outsource all of this, all of abortion policy to him.

[00:30:45] So we're going to keep leaning in on this and just think it's really important that pro-lifers also are able to articulate, on one hand, you know, potentially supporting RFK on his message about chronic diseases, but opposing him in his pro-choice path. What are some of the steps you have taken to oppose his nomination or passage of his confirmation?

[00:31:09] Well, we've spent a significant amount of money on a six-figure, multi-six-figure ad buy that talks about his position on the issue of life. And we've been lobbying hard on Capitol Hill, talking to members of Congress, particularly senators who are going to be voting on this and trying to push them in the right direction on this, and just talking to a lot of constituents as well.

[00:31:38] We put out papers, put out op-eds, all that kind of stuff. But, look, this is difficult. This is an uphill task. We are in a moment where, understandably, everybody wants to be supportive of the president. He just won a pretty resounding victory. And people are excited about that on the conservative side of the aisle. But you've got to be able to keep your eyes on what's really important, and that's public policy in this space.

[00:32:06] And so we're asking people to, even while being excited and wanting to be supportive of the president and what he might accomplish in this second term, we're asking people to continue to engage and say the life issue is one that is just far too important to gamble on somebody who's been a lifelong progressive liberal advocate for the pro-choice position. You know, it's one of the oddest nominations I've seen, and there are concerns and speculation that essentially President Trump,

[00:32:35] in order to be able to get RFK's support, said to him behind the scenes, I'm going to give you a high-level position, maybe head of HHS, and that he, in essence, made a transactional deal in order to get RFK to support him. And that's not a great reason. If you largely agree with somebody, it's one thing, but it's not a great reason to give somebody that high a position if you don't agree with them.

[00:33:02] Yeah, I understand coalition politics, okay? I'm not naive to this. We all get it. But to your point, Merrill, it is the prize is too high. That is too expensive a prize or too expensive an award for what the deal was. And I think that the president would be far, far better off giving, you know, RFK Jr. a, you know, senior advisor role in the White House and saying,

[00:33:32] we're going to lean in with you, RFK Jr., on the chronic disease epidemic, and I want you to help advise us on that. I agree. Stay with us. We'll be back with Tim Chapman for further discussion. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] And we're back with our final segment with Tim Chapman. He is president of Advancing American Freedom. That is Mike Pence's, Vice President Mike Pence's organization. And, Tim, you know, we're talking about RFK and your organization's opposition to him. And I agree with you on your point. I have a few other concerns about it as well. I mean, the notion of make America healthy again, I'm not sure what that means.

[00:34:27] If that means they want to provide more information about various types of foods and other things, I'm good with that. Does it mean the government's going to get in and be a little more aggressive on what I can and can't eat, what I can and can't drink, medicines I can and can't take? I'm a little bit concerned about that. I was at an event this weekend. My granddaughter was there, and somebody had some Twinkies there. And I never eat Twinkies, but there was a Twinkie there, and I ate a Twinkie as bad as it is for me.

[00:34:56] I ate a Twinkie. Right. And I'm not sure I want the government telling me I can't eat a Hostess Twinkie. Yeah, that's right. I mean, look, it is a little bit – it's a little bit – it can cause whiplash. I mean, if you look only like six, seven, eight years ago, the conservatives were still railing against people like Michael Bloomberg for wanting to take away the big gulps. Oh, yes, yes.

[00:35:19] And, you know, and now we're in a position where we're, like, promoting RFK Jr., who literally wants to take away the big gulp. But, look, let me just say this. Again, and I kind of said it earlier, I do appreciate that he's, you know, he's pointing a spotlight on the chronic health epidemic that we have. Look, I'm a parent. I've got four kids. I do care what goes into their bodies.

[00:35:46] I do think the processed food that is readily available is generally not good for people, and I do think it contributes to, you know, poor health conditions. And so, fine, let's shine a light on that. But to your point, Merrill, what exactly does this mean in terms of public policy? And I think that's a question that needs to be asked. And, look, and then this gets even a little bit more concerning, and this is not an issue that we've been working heavily on because we've been focused on the life issue.

[00:36:15] But, you know, look at, you know, the Wall Street Journal had a really very good editorial this week where they pointed out the fact that, you know, Kennedy has made an entire career off being a trial lawyer. Oh, yes, yes. And for very progressive liberal causes.

[00:36:31] And that one of the things that he has felt strongly is that he needs the government to be promoting studies that give fodder to the trial lawyers to prove their point against some of these companies that they want to sue. So does that mean that, quote, science is going to be coming out of HHS, you know, that basically provides the fodder for all these leftist lawsuits?

[00:36:58] And moreover, Kennedy has been very clear that his association with some of the trial lawyers that he's been working with will remain even when he's at HHS. So he will still be getting payments from those trial lawyers and will be able to recoup sums from damages if they win in court. Look, this doesn't feel very conservative to me.

[00:37:25] This feels like we could be headed down a very dangerous path here. And I just think people need to need to ask those kinds of tough questions. And that's what we've been trying to say to senators is, guys, look, we get that you all want to be excited. We get that everyone wants to be on Team Red right now. But you have a duty to advise and consent here. And you're elected by your own constituents. And you have a responsibility to them, too. And you have a responsibility to public health.

[00:37:52] And there are some real things that could go sideways here if you don't do your job. Tim, in our next hour, I'm going to be turning to John Hood. And we're going to be talking about the sort of divisions in the conservative movement now. And with respect to this, have you been surprised that more conservatives have not been raising a voice against Kennedy? I mean, an awful lot of conservative groups are out there 100 percent behind him. Yeah.

[00:38:20] And there are some that are 100 percent behind him and there are others that are completely quiet. Now, the ones that are completely quiet, you can assume are opposed to him but don't want to get their heads taken off by the administration. And importantly, the kind of echo chamber that the administration has built on the outside, on Twitter, X, whatever,

[00:38:41] and some of the groups that they funded on the outside to go after people who deviate from the kind of the position that the administration wants. So I am not – I am sadly not surprised that more people are going along because I think they're doing so out of their own desire for self-preservation. Now, what does that say about the conservative movement right now is a bigger question.

[00:39:11] You know, I think the conservative movement is at a – you know, a real fork in the road here. I think that at its best, the conservative movement has always existed as this sort of like healthy check on the excesses of Republican – elected Republican leaders. It has performed like the role of the conscience of the Republican Party. And right now, I don't see a lot of that.

[00:39:41] I see a very, very big hesitancy to do that. And there are groups out there that used to be that kind of conscience but no longer will do so. You know, my former employer who I still, you know, love very much, the Heritage Foundation. But Heritage has, you know – Heritage traded in their conservative card for a MAGA card. Yes.

[00:40:01] And has – and has now – is now taking the money that they raise and is, you know, running campaigns against people who don't – who won't support Kennedy. And to me, it's just, you know, it's a very, very interesting time to be on the right. And I just think, like, over the course of the next couple of years, it's really important that conservatives examine the things that they care most about and make a decision about how to engage in the public sphere.

[00:40:31] And I think over time, the pressure to align entirely and unquestioningly behind whatever MAGA wants at a particular moment will dissipate. But still, some people may have, like – you know, they may not be able to turn off the switch after they've, you know, decided to go along to get along for so long. You know, when I go into a voting booth, I will not vote for somebody who is pro-choice.

[00:41:01] I could vote for a lot of people, but I can't vote for somebody who is pro-choice. So if I were a senator in this case – and that's for a politician. If I were a senator voting for a cabinet secretary, it would be hard for me to make that choice. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I agree.

[00:41:20] Now, the problem is, and you've seen it, like if they say that they're going to oppose, you know, Kennedy, they get immediate threats from external groups and that they're going to be primaried or, you know, written out of the conservative movement or whatever. And so, you know, it's tough.

[00:41:41] But really, we – you know, this is a time where people, like – I don't want – I don't think anyone should be, you know, trying to be just in total opposition to, you know, Kennedy or to the president or whatever. But I think you need to be a healthy voice for conscience. And so come along, you know, this administration when they're doing great things like they are sure to do. But when they kind of make a misstep like they've done on Kennedy, you know, you should speak up.

[00:42:10] I think it's your responsibility as a conservative. Tim, take about 30 seconds to tell people how they can reach out to you. Sure. Yeah, you can find me on Twitter slash X. I'm at Tim Chapman. And more importantly, you can find our organization at AdvancingAmericanFreedom.com and reach out. And we'd love to hear from folks. Thank you, Tim. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you for having me. Have a good one. Thank you.

[00:42:40] Well, that provides some information about Robert F. Kennedy. You may be curious or maybe not undecided yourself. But anyway, Mike Pence's group is taking a position against him. When we come back, we're going to talk about that split in the conservative movement with John Hood, long-time activist, former think tank head, about what's going on with the conservative movement. So stay with us. We'll be back on Point of View.

[00:43:11] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle, not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas. London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism, and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon. London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually. Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:43:40] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers. Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth. It is truth for all of life. Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today? Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net.

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