Point of View January 14, 2025 – Hour 1 : Tolkien, Philosopher of War

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, and now, Kirby Anderson. Thank you for joining me, it is the Tuesday edition of Point of View, and we're going to be talking about a very significant book first hour, but let me talk about a couple of other things happening.

[00:00:28] First of all, confirmation hearings have begun, and so as we began yesterday, we suggested that you may want to go to our website, pointofview.net. That middle section there is take action, and we give you an opportunity to contact your two United States Senators to express your desires about the various confirmation hearings which have begun today.

[00:00:52] They kicked off with quite a bang, and that is because the first person up in a Senate hearing meeting room was Pete Hickseth, and he was pushing back vigorously. First of all, some of the critics that have been coming out in the media, but then also there was a fairly significant back and forth. We'll talk more about that next hour. I don't think he was more than about two or three minutes into his opening statement in which there was a protest, and there have been some others since then.

[00:01:21] And there's been some pretty vigorous, I guess is a nice word, interchange between him and some of the U.S. Senators. So we will certainly get to that and talk about that a little bit more, but that is one of the items that we have given to you today for take action. And if you have not had a chance to do so, go to that middle section. Do you believe the President has the right to choose his Cabinet members? We give you some quotes, one from a Republican, one from a Democrat.

[00:01:48] You can put in your zip code, and then we give you a suggested letter that you can send to your two United States Senators. You can modify it any way you want, and you can send it off and have done your civic duty. So that is one topic that we will get into in more detail next hour, but I wanted to talk about it right now so that you indeed could take action if you would want to do so. We are privileged to bring to the microphone today Professor Graham James Mecalier. He was born and raised in England.

[00:02:18] He is an individual that has attended universities in England, in Canada, the United States, and Belgium, for which he got his doctorate. He is an individual that has for some time been teaching about 30 years at the University of Loyola. He has written five other books besides the one we are going to talk about today on topics like ethics and moral theology. And also writes for the national online magazine, Law and Liberty.

[00:02:44] There you will see that recently he has written about such things as natural law, the Enlightenment, just the whole idea of a civilization ending war, a topic we have gotten into before with Victor Davis Hanson, and then even some individuals like Albert Camus and J.J.R.R. Tolkien. And so that is what we are going to be talking about today. New book out, Tolkien, Philosophy of War. And Professor Mecalier, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:03:15] Thanks very much for hosting me, Kirby. Appreciate it. Let's, if we can, get into how you did this. I've watched one of your interviews where people were saying, well, how did a person doing philosophy kind of get into this? And I think part of that was watching the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films. But also, I think I've heard you say before that some of your students were so interested in this that this provided an opportunity in some respects to delve more deeply into Tolkien

[00:03:45] and some of the comments he said about war and warfare and modernity and a variety of others. Is that true? Yeah, I think as a teacher, you know, you're always looking for some common ground for the students to kind of meet them where they're at. And especially in a civilization like ours now, right, which is kind of very fragmented, you're always interested in, well, you know, what do we all still have in common? And at the time of the Peter Jackson films, you know, that really was a kind of cultural event.

[00:04:13] And, you know, the students were going to midnight showings, one of those midnight showings I went with the students. You know, it just was something that was really in the air. A lot of people invested in it. So I started then to sort of wanting to sort of deepen their understanding of what maybe was going on in those movies by plugging in a lot of significant philosophy. So that's certainly the origin of the book. Well, again, if you think about it, when some people ask about Lord of the Rings, well, I say, well, that's an adventure, which it is.

[00:04:41] But you and I tend to sometimes look at some of the philosophical issues behind it. And one obvious one is war. And let's at least educate our listeners for just a minute. Tolkien, when he writes about war, doesn't just write about it as an armchair observer. He was in World War I. I've heard you speak about actually having trench fever that he had and the impact that he had and maybe even the sense of duty, which we'll get into a little bit later,

[00:05:11] and even the sense of pride of having served with the British regiment. Can you speak to that? Yes, certainly. You know, he was a signals officer. So, you know, he wouldn't have led men over the trenches. You know, the most iconic image right of the First World War, officers leading the men from the front over the top and just, you know, massacre. But he was, as a signals officer, he was perhaps even more important because obviously on the battlefield knowledge is gold. And so, he was a primary object of sniper fire.

[00:05:40] So, the signals officers would often have to work at night just to increase their chances of survival. So, you know, he was definitely on the receiving end. And, but you know, he was hospitalized out. He called this thing trench fever. It's a completely debilitating flu-like disease. And, and actually it doesn't go away, you know, so you have doubts of it his whole life. So, you know, he definitely knew what he was talking about. And in fact, you know, two of his sons fought in the Second World War.

[00:06:10] And, you know, he is interesting in his letters because he, you know, he thinks that war is very constricting. You know, he thinks that, you know, obviously when you're in battle, you know, you are single-mindedly focused on the objectives at hand. So, he thought it was very constricting, but at the same time, he thought it was a true education. You know, he says to one of his sons, look, I know you're now going into the Second World War.

[00:06:36] I know you had wanted to go to Oxford University, but you know, the army and war is as good, is as good an education as you'll find elsewhere. So, you know, he always was, I mean, I don't doubt he was scarred by it in some ways, but, but it doesn't, it doesn't appear in his letters, you know, like he writes a lot about war, his own experience, the experience of his sons in war. And he tends to, I would say, you know, not in any way minimizing, you know, the horror of it.

[00:07:06] He is nonetheless very taken with the idea of bravery, loyalty, solidarity. You know, I think that comes across very, very strongly. And he also thought there was something sort of inevitable about war. You know, he was a Christian. He, I wouldn't say he was a pessimist, but he did take a pretty dark view of things. I mean, he struck you, you know, you can talk back to Christianity. He kind of tended to think of the cross maybe more than something like resurrection.

[00:07:32] And so he thought that, you know, the world was a kind of a travail and war and serving in war was going to be a part of that. Well, again, we're going to take a break. We'll come back and get into this book, Tolkien, A Philosophy of War. But in one of his letters, he said this is a tale about war. And he was writing at the time about the Lord of the Rings. He also, of course, said that he believed that war is far less effective than many people might think.

[00:07:58] But says as a Christian, he also did not expect history to be anything but a long defeat. And so in some respects, war is something that was certainly necessary, especially in World War II. When we come back, we're going to get into some of the themes about his view about modernity and the modern world. Some people have referred to him maybe as a Luddite. What about the future?

[00:08:21] There's themes about beauty and vanity and dignity, which we've just talked about, and humility and a variety of others. So we're going to do our best to explore that in this book, Tolkien, Philosophy of War. If you find yourself saying, oh, I'd like to maybe read that book, we have a link on our website. You might be able to find it in your local bookstore, but we've made it very easy for you to find. And we'll take a break and come back with more right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Throughout the 2024 campaign, President Biden and his administration argued that the economy was doing well. Many voters did not agree with their assessment. And even in the waning days of his administration, President Biden has argued that he is handing the Trump administration a robust labor market. E.J. Antony of the Heritage Foundation replies, I'm sorry.

[00:09:25] I think the Biden administration's own data contradicts that narrative. He explains that the post-pandemic economic recovery wasn't as robust as Biden argues. There is actually fewer native born Americans working today than there were before the pandemic in 2019. Instead, the net job growth has gone to foreign born workers. Douglas Carr provides another example of economic misperception by posting numerous charts illustrating the impact of Bidenomics.

[00:09:53] For example, his first chart illustrates that many more American families were worse off than a year ago. And this was worse for young adults. Of even greater concern was his chart that documents that the financial well-being of high school educated Americans versus college degree holders. And his chart shows that the financial situation for Americans with just a high school degree has fallen to its lowest point in a half a century. Inflation over the last few years dropped average earnings for most Americans.

[00:10:22] He also quotes from a study from the Brookings Institute that the effects of rising prices have been more pronounced for poor families and especially families of color. President Biden and his administration may believe the economy was good, but Americans were feeling pain at the pump in the grocery store and in their wallets. I'm Kirby Anderson. And that's my point of view.

[00:10:47] For a free copy of Kirby's booklet, A Biblical View on Critical Race Theory, go to viewpoints.info.com. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. My guest's first hour is Graham McAleer, and he is the author of the book Tolkien, Philosopher of War.

[00:11:10] And just a minute ago I mentioned, Graham, that actually Tolkien said that Frodo believes that war is far less effective than most good men think. But then also goes on, as you two, to point out that in one of his letters he points out that he's an individual that looks at it from a Christian point of view, recognizes the history, maybe anything but a long defeat. Although there contains some samples of glimpse and final victory, which kind of brings us to this whole idea of war.

[00:11:38] You've been writing about it for some time, and we do these booklets that I make available to our donors. And one that I made available a while back is this one on just war, A Biblical View of Just War. And as a matter of fact, I might just as a program note mention to our listeners, we have one coming out pretty soon on A Biblical View of Terrorism in light of what happened on New Year's Day. And so these are issues that serious people need to think about.

[00:12:05] And as you point out, war touches the things we cherish and fear, life and land, buildings and belongings, subversion, possession, plunder, and justice. A quote that you have from a particular book. But also it is not only bringing destruction but creation.

[00:12:22] And in some respects, to really understand some of the writings of Tolkien, you've got to understand this not only forces of good and evil, but recognize that it really is a series of essays, if you think about it, on the whole issue of war, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:41] I mean, so you know, you have the Lord of the Rings, but prior to that, you know, you have this thing called The Silmarillion, which is sort of the great book that he wrote that kind of supports the whole Lord of the Rings story. It's like the prequel. And it's astonishing, you know, because on the very first page of that book, the war begins when the fallen angel sort of attacks the forces of good, attacks the creation of God.

[00:13:10] And the war kind of spirals out across then, you know, thousands of years. The war just kind of continues until there is a kind of an apocalyptic final last battle, which actually lasts 50 years, a 50-year struggle. And that's then the culmination of history. So, you know, the whole thing is built around this struggle. And in this struggle, of course, lots of civilizations fall by the wayside.

[00:13:37] Like, you know, the elves, you know, who are kind of the hero population of the books, you know, they're exhausted by it and they essentially fade away. The Numenoreans, who are the forebearers of Aragorn, the king-in-waiting, you know, they're completely destroyed by the war. So, you know, he thought that war had to be fought, but it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't about glory necessarily. Sometimes it was just about clinging on and even kind of, you know, fighting even a last stand and sort of going through the process of decay.

[00:14:07] So, you know, he had quite a pessimistic vision of the world, but he also did believe that there were these sort of moments of sort of revelation or epiphany where good and God would sort of reach out into the world and kind of show a kind of clarity about, you know, what was possible, what reasons to hope.

[00:14:31] And so, again, just a real illustration of the fact that war is important and that he wanted to try to address it. But help us to think about that, even at a time when, of course, there had been not only a war that he participated in, his sons had, but just even today we talk about the fact that it is very rare that around the world we have anything like peace at all. And I thought maybe I would get into his view about kind of the modern world.

[00:14:58] There's a point where you talk about he really felt that modern railway stations should be better designed if they really nourished more fantasy. And it does seem to me that he was struggling with some of the kind of the modern world. Last week we had Andrew Wilson on as we talked about his book Remaking the World and What Happened in 1776. But I've seen some people refer to J.R.R. Tolkien as a Luddite.

[00:15:23] But whether it is the modern world, modernism, that's sort of a theme that runs through your book, isn't it? Yeah, I think there are modern ideologies that he strongly opposed. There are certain philosophies of history, you know, the sort of the Marxist idea of history, the liberal progressive idea of history. I mean, I think I've already said enough things that, you know, he's not a liberal progressive, right? They tend to think that the world is getting better and better. And he thinks, no, no, you know, you've got this kind of ongoing problem of decay.

[00:15:54] So, you know, there were all of these sort of modern ideologies that I think he was very opposed to. But I don't think that that extended to, you know, an outright horror, you know, of the modern world. You know, there is, I think, an easy way of thinking about, well, you know, anyone who'd been in the First World War, the first truly industrialized war would come to have a horror, you know, of war and the modern times. But, you know, one thing, you know, as he became, you know, he lived his entire life as a very poor man.

[00:16:24] You know, he was an orphan. So, yeah, no, he had his wealth or anything like that. But, you know, one of the very first things he wanted to do as the paychecks came in from the books, you know, was to buy a typewriter that had elvish script. I've heard that, yes. First of all, I have this elvish language. And then, of course, now we could do this with computers. But he wanted a typewriter that had elvish typeface, which just cracks me up. It just illustrates exactly about what he thought would be the best investment of his money at the time. Right, right.

[00:16:53] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, he's not against technology as such, but he certainly was against those who thought of technology as the future, as the eradication of the created order or as the correction of the created order. So at the time, you know, there was this artistic movement, Italian futurism, which is very dominant, very dominant at the time and has certainly had a tremendous legacy.

[00:17:21] And in fact, Mussolini said there would have been no fascism but for modernism. And they had this idea of, so I'll just give this one example. They had this idea of replacing the moon by raising massive search lamps into the sky. Right. So when humans would look up into the sky, they wouldn't see the created order. They wouldn't see the cosmos. They would just see a version of themselves.

[00:17:45] So that kind of thoroughgoing technology replacing the cosmos. Yeah, he's dead against that for sure. Let me talk about that for just a minute. For those of you watching online, I'm holding up the book that I just published on discerning the future. And the first chapter, interesting enough, is on transhumanism and futurism. And that's a really important theme because even though he was dealing with that then,

[00:18:11] with the idea that we really want to not see the created order. We want to blind out so that people can't even see the moon. And we really have this desire maybe to live forever, which is kind of this transhumanist idea. Some of those ideas really show up. And you talk about that, I guess, on pages 30 and following in your book. Yes. So the story of the Numenoreans, right?

[00:18:38] So people who are familiar with the films or maybe The Lord of the Rings, right, they probably know that Aragon is what they call a Dunedain. And this is the last surviving remnant of this earlier human race of the Numenoreans. And they were gifted with extra long life, extra brilliance. And they came to this idea that if they could only get to the land of the gods, there's a kind of a part of the Middle Earth, right, which is reserved for the gods.

[00:19:07] And if they could get there, then they would have immortality. So the Numenoreans, although profoundly gifted by God, they were really resentful of the fact that they have to die. And another word for the land of the gods was called the Undying Lands. So they got it into their heads. Actually, it's the prompting of Sauron. They get it into their heads. Sauron sort of whispering in their ears that if you can only get to the Undying Lands, you will have immortality.

[00:19:32] So I think that that is the deep source, right, of transhumanism, a certain kind of rage that we have to die. Wow. That we're under a punishment of death from God. We need to take a break. But when I come back, I do want to kind of get into this idea of Gnosticism and a few other ideas that surface there. And, of course, then there's some themes about beauty and vanity and dignity and the rest. But, again, we do need to take a break. Let me just mention a couple things.

[00:19:57] First of all, this book, Tolkien, Philosophy of War, it is written by Graham James McLear. And you can find out more about him as well as about the book. We have a link there to the book. And you can click through there and get it in paperback. And I think you will find it fascinating, especially if you are a fan of the Lord of the Rings or many of the writings, whether it's C.S. Lewis or whether it's J.R.R. Tolkien or the Inklins, whatever it might be, that is the case.

[00:20:26] As I mentioned just a few minutes ago, of course, we also give you an action item. And during the break, it would be a good time to go to that particular section in which we're encouraging you to contact your two United States senators about the confirmation hearings taking place. Of course, we'll have the inauguration of Donald Trump on Monday, and we'll look at that as well. And I might also mention, as we have before, we do have a trip to Greece. And we do have a few openings that have actually been made available.

[00:20:55] And this will be taking place May 17th to the 27th. It is an opportunity to go to Athens and Corinth and Philippi and Ephesus and Patmos and many other places. And if you would like to get a brochure or you'd like to know a little bit more, again, you can contact us at pointofview.net. Let's take a break, though. We have a lot more to cover on this whole issue of Tolkien and the philosophy of war. All that coming up right after this.

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[00:22:51] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again, let me open up the phones in case any of you maybe have a question or a comment. We've already mentioned Aragorn, and we've mentioned Frodo, and a few others.

[00:23:21] Maybe that is something you would like to talk about, Lord of the Rings. But we certainly have a lot to cover here as we are talking today with Graham James McLear. And he is a professor at Loyola University, author of this book, Tolkien, Philosophy of War. And again, we've been talking about the issue, really, of kind of Gnosticism, which you cover early on in the book.

[00:23:44] And I think that would be appropriate as well, because it surfaces not only in the way in which Tolkien wrote, but it, of course, goes all the way back to ideas that are really important, even as we're trying to understand some of the things, for example, the Apostle Paul is writing about in the New Testament. Yeah, indeed. You know, Gnosticism does date to the time of Christ. It's not a Christian heresy. It's an alternative.

[00:24:12] It was an alternative at the time to Christianity and some of the other religions around. And it's really predicated on an idea of complaint, a complaint about the fact that kind of reality or the cosmos is sort of disappointing to human expectations. And so the idea is to kind of find a kind of a guru or a sage who will lead you out of the cosmos.

[00:24:37] So, you know, it's not about the sort of the Christian idea of grace complementing and completing nature. It's really a kind of an escape model to a kind of an alternate other reality. And so I think that that, you know, was something that Tolkien was very averse to, you know, the reason I think that gardens and forests and the landscape, you know, people who read the books, they're often surprised by just how much description there is of forests and landscapes.

[00:25:05] And but I think that that's very much on purpose. Right. I mean, he's really about, you know, re reestablishing a tight link in our minds with the created order as opposed to what was the fashion then. And I would say now with techno science, you know, the fashion is all about a certain kind of an escape into a kind of a human alternate reality. Well, again, it's, of course, dissatisfaction with the world.

[00:25:32] It's, of course, a problem with the world, not with us. But back to that point about creation for just a minute. I've said before that when I go and speak at retreats, Christian conferences, of course, I speak at a lot of camps and things like that. There is something that really is significant in which you can take God's word and put it together with God's world.

[00:25:56] And some things happen there that don't happen in our 24-7 kind of news cycle where everybody's looking at their cell phones. Individuals are sort of overcome by the technology. There is a sense in which with Tolkien, he goes back to, if you will, maybe not the Garden of Eden, but goes back to nature, back to creation. And there really is a sense that that is another theme that runs through the books, isn't it? Yeah, very much so.

[00:26:25] He himself was an avid gardener. He says that the true hero of the book is Samwise Ganji. And he, of course, is Frodo's gardener. And before him, his father was the gardener of Bilbo Baggins, right? So there is this kind of idea, you know, of Frodo and Sam. And Frodo is the more, you know, Frodo is bookish. He loves elvish lore. He can sing. He loves poetry.

[00:26:53] And then you've got this kind of man of the earth kind of idea. And ultimately, it's his resilience that's going to actually get the ring destroyed because ultimately, although Frodo is the ring bearer, Frodo sort of collapses under the burden of the terror of Sauron. And it's Sam, you know, who puts him up on his back. And it's Sam who carries him up the final hill and so they can get rid of that ring.

[00:27:17] So, you know, there is this great sort of Tolkien has this really strong love of things like gardens and forests. And as I say, I think it's very much about just what you said, you know, kind of the linking of the divine and the human and the natural. Very good. You know, in one of your chapters on the war aims in the Shire, I thought we'd get into that for just a minute because in one of his letters, Tolkien said,

[00:27:42] In the Lord of the Rings, the conflict is not basically about freedom, though that is naturally involved. It's about God and his sole right to divine honor. And it gets into the hobbits. It gets into the kind of the question of, you know, what's wrong with us as you raise that question. Just this whole issue that he was really addressing. And that really comes out in, for example, the Shire and the hobbits, doesn't it?

[00:28:12] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, he was an orphan, right? And he was looked after by the church. And so, you know, he was always a devout man. And basically what happens, the structure, the deep structure of the books is that this sort of fallen angel, Melchor, who's the kind of the boss of Sauron, he begins a kind of an angelic army up against God.

[00:28:36] And then with Sauron, when Sauron gets into power over the Numenoreans, the forebearers of Aragon, he actually establishes a cult of human sacrifice. Yes. So there is this constant kind of a negative kind of religious, perverse kind of religious thing going on that the forces of good and the forces of God have to kind of contend with and seek to defeat.

[00:29:03] And that, of course, is the role of Gandalf being sent down. You know, he is an angel and he's sort of sent down to kind of help wage the war against these really pernicious sort of quasi-religious forces. You know, because Sauron, like Melchor, wants the world to honor him. And, of course, that's why that goes back to the letter that you mentioned, right, where Tolkien says what these books are fundamentally about is that honor is only for God.

[00:29:34] Wow. You know, that is really one of those other ideas here because dignity and honor and a number of other things, those words, I'd have to say, Graham, almost sound like something of the 19th century. And there's a sense in which we've lost so much of that here in the 21st century. And yet that's one of the things that I think resonate with young people that go to the movies or read the books.

[00:30:02] And that is a cause worth fighting for, dignity. We'll get to beauty and some of that in just a minute. But just certainly this idea that there is a cause larger than me worth dying for, that was certainly significant in the 20th century, especially in World War II.

[00:30:22] But that resonates again in this kind of desire, especially for young boys to have some kind of battle or quest to be victorious. But even if you fail to do it with honor and dignity, don't you think? Yeah, no, I do. I mean, I think, you know, Tolkien's life was in many ways a life of service, right? He first begins in service to the British Army, then the service to his family. You know, he has four kids. He's not a well-to-do man at all.

[00:30:52] He's working constantly to kind of put them through school, et cetera. So that really is found again in the books, right? The books are about many individual stories of service and indeed ultimately sacrifice. And sometimes that becomes very bitter, right? For example, with the failure of Boromir. You know, when Boromir breaks the fellowship and he understands what he's done, you know, he dies this death of almost despair.

[00:31:20] You know, because he's totally cognizant of what he did. Right. He tries to make amends by dying. So, you know, it's powerful stuff. Yeah, I think that was important. I was going to get to that because the other idea, obviously, in addition to dignity, valor and the rest is friendship. And, of course, that's one of the things that actually leads to the success in Lord of the Rings, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, very much so.

[00:31:47] I mean, especially the friendship between Sam and Frodo. But there's also a kind of, you know, I mean, there's a kind of, you know, Frodo is a kind of a servant, you know, in the household of Frodo. So it's got that element of service right there. But it's absolutely rooted in a friendship and indeed a friendship unto death and sacrifice if necessary. You know, that is avoided for them.

[00:32:15] But there's plenty of other characters in the stories where, you know, that all, you know, it is sacrifice unto death. You know, that happens. And, of course, that's very much part of the Christian story. Let's see if we can take a break and we come back. We have mentioned it, but let's get into it. Beauty, vanity. There's a section here about insufficient beauty. And this is, of course, something we've talked about before.

[00:32:41] As a matter of fact, one of the other booklets that we've made available is written by my producer, Steve Miller, on imagination and those values as well. It is, I think, illustrated just as we talked about a minute ago, the incredible detail that Tolkien goes into in terms of describing plants and creatures and all the rest. But what about that? Where does that issue of beauty or insufficient beauty actually surface? That's another one of those themes that runs through the book.

[00:33:10] And, of course, it also relates to a variety of other political issues, as we've already mentioned, everything from fascism that was taking place at the time to, of course, World War I, World War II, and a world in conflict. And so, in some respects, there are some great themes that we can get out of the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. And we will take a break and continue our conversation for a few more minutes with Graham James McLear. He'll be back with us, and I'll be back right after this.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back for a few more minutes, and we're continuing our conversation today with Professor Graham James McLear. And the book is entitled Tolkien, Philosopher of War. I might just mention that he's a professor of Loyola. And if you'd want to contact him, first of all, he teaches some courses which would be fascinating. One, Film, Fiction, and Political Thought in the 1980s.

[00:34:21] And then, as you might imagine, Morals and Politics of the Lord of the Rings. And those would be fascinating courses, I would think. And, of course, if you'd like to contact him, we do have a link to his account, X. And, well, you can probably find some other links that we have there as well. I see you have one coming out on security ethics. That may be something we might want to talk about as well. But let's get back real quickly to the book, Tolkien, Philosopher of War.

[00:34:47] One of the themes that certainly runs through here is beauty or inadequate beauty or the loss of beauty. And then a little bit later, sort of related to that, is the issue of vanity and humility. But what about this theme of beauty? Because I think we've already alluded to the fact that there's a lot of detail in the books. And that was intended maybe to bring us back to an understanding of creation.

[00:35:12] But what else did we maybe, can you pick out in terms of some of the issues of beauty that surface in some of these works by Tolkien? Yeah. So the idea of the insufficiency of beauty, of course, is the story of the Numenoreans, right? They are this beautiful species of humans. Yes. They are intellectually gifted and they somehow find it, you know, unsatisfying. And Tolkien actually has a very interesting letter where he talks about this phenomenon.

[00:35:42] And he says, in consequence of finding it unsatisfying, humans have a tendency to become, to enter into secret societies, to become conspiratorial, to practice the dark arts. So, I mean, he has this really fascinating idea about why beauty and a full appreciation of beauty is so essential because it actually preserves us from otherwise veering off into these really dark recesses of human psychology.

[00:36:12] And, of course, this is ultimately what happens with Thauron when he institutes the practice or the cult of human sacrifice. So, you know, you have that. And then, of course, you know, I make a lot of the fact that at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields where Aragorn, he returns, he leads the armies, he defeats the forces or partially defeats the forces of Thauron.

[00:36:35] And, of course, he releases into the air the battle standard of his kingdom, which has been made for him by Arwan, one of the Elvish princesses with whom he's in love with and they ultimately marry. But, you know, this battle standard has all of these jewels embedded in it. It's full of Elvish craft. It's high design. So, there is this sort of fascinating idea of this sort of object of beauty.

[00:37:02] And you just think about down through history, all the people have been awarded medals of valor for defending the battle standard, defending the flag. You know, it's a very peculiar phenomenon. But it's something that Klausjevitz, the man who wrote the famous book on war, talks about this, that war is always about trophies, preserving trophies, stealing trophies.

[00:37:24] And so, you see this in one of the culminating battles, you know, of the whole Lord of the Rings story, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. So, you know, beauty sort of leads the way. And I think this battle standard is truly fascinating because actually what you see, it includes a crown. So, that's the crown of the kingdom of Aragorn. It includes a sacred tree. And it includes the stars, right?

[00:37:50] So, you've got this whole idea of the earth through the crown looking up at the stars, right? So, it's this kind of like chain of being idea or this kind of cosmic idea of rule in conformity with the natural order. And then I link that back to things like natural law, constitutionalism, and so on. So, yeah. Fascinating. And again, ties into very much in the Old Testament, the priests had garbs that had all sorts of jewels.

[00:38:18] And, of course, you had also the battle of even wanting to take the Ark of the Covenant. I mean, there are just all sorts of themes there. But I want to pick out one other one because since we talked about beauty, the flip side is vanity and the need for humility. And that surfaces in your book as well. Yes. So, the idea of humility is just this, you know, with the battle standard, right? The idea that the people are going to be fighting for something that is above them, right?

[00:38:45] That the battle standard, not only do you look up to the battle standard, but the battle standard then tell you to look up at the cosmos, right? So, there's this kind of service and sacrifice through and in humility. But then the vanity thing is, of course, because if you think about the modern age, right? The modern age begins with people like Adam Smith, the Scottish Enlightenment, thinking about the role of vanity as the driver of the economy.

[00:39:13] And one of the things you would notice, you know, if you just compare, contrasted, say, Lord of the Rings with, say, Game of Thrones, is that there's almost no economy in it, right? It's always a bit of a mystery, like how do the people on Middle Earth actually live and how do they survive and do they really trade? You see a lot more of that in The Hobbit, you know, the first book he wrote. But the idea of trade and business and Smith's idea that it's vanity that drives it. And Smith thought this was both a positive thing and a negative thing, right?

[00:39:42] Vanity, you know, obviously book Ecclesiastics in the Bible, but, you know, Plato, not a Christian, a pagan. He also, you know, thinks that vanity is a really serious moral problem. So, you know, I think part of what The Lord of the Rings is about is this treatment of struggling with how are we to think about vanity, which is a kind of a beauty, of course, right? And Smith argues it's the beauty that sustains the modern economy, right? And we have all sorts of benefits from that.

[00:40:11] But it is also the thing that sort of makes us sort of slaves to our iPhones and always wondering how our Instagram is doing and how many hits we're getting on our posts on X or whatever, right? So, you know, it's this super double-edged problem. And I think Tolkien's really inquiring into that. I think so. Whether you give up the ring and throw it into the fire or keep it, I mean, there's just a lot of themes that run there. But first of all, Graham, I want to thank you for writing the book. I want to thank you for being on the program.

[00:40:40] I know you have a lot to do, but it means a lot that you would, first of all, write this book and then give us an hour to talk about it today here on Point of View. No, I've really appreciated this opportunity. It's been a great conversation. Love the way you've steered the conversation. It's been fantastic. Thanks very much. We're going to take a break then. And again, if you would like to know more, Tolkien, Philosophy of War, and we have information about it, the philosopher of war and certainly how that relates. A lot of themes. I think I covered most of them.

[00:41:09] Most authors appreciate the fact that I do things like, I don't know, read the book, you know, what a concept, and try to understand what they're talking about. I even took the time to watch another interview that he did and learn a little bit more about him so that you would benefit from that. But let's now talk about some very important issues. That is, we are in the midst of confirmation hearings. First one began today. Many more over the next four or five days. Actually, I guess they probably won't be meeting on Saturday.

[00:41:36] But Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we'll have confirmation hearings. Hopefully some of those will actually culminate in an individual to be able to hit the ground running on day one because that is next Monday in which the inauguration of Donald Trump actually takes place and the new administration takes over. So, again, if you would like to know a little bit more about this, we come back from the break. I'm going to start with a piece by Ben Weingarten. Do Republican senators know what time it is?

[00:42:04] And this is really a critique about whether or not they're going to be actually involved in this confirmation process. And we'll talk about that and what that means and how you can get involved. That is all available at our website at pointofview.net. And I did mention just a few minutes ago, but let me mention again that we do have an opportunity for you to walk where John and Paul walked.

[00:42:27] We will spend some time going to a variety of places in Greece, and that will be Philippi and Thessalonica. We're going to be in Athens. We're going to be in Corinth. We'll be in Ephesus. We're going to go to Patmos, where John was actually held as well, and all these other voyage parts and conversations. And paths will be ones where Paul has walked. So you will get, again, the journeys of Paul and John.

[00:42:56] It takes place May 17th to the 27th. And if you'd like to know more about that, we'd love to have you join us. Let's take a break. We have a lot more to cover. We'll do that right after this. At Point of View, we believe there is power in prayer. And that is why we have relaunched our Pray for America campaign, a series of weekly emails to unite Americans in prayer for our nation.

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[00:44:17] That's pointofview.net. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in our land. Point of View will continue after this. Thank you. Thank you.