Point of View January 10, 2025 – Hour 2 : Workers for Your Joy

[00:00:04] Across America Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] This is our going to be talking about Christian leaders and if you think about this confidence in many of the Christian leaders both inside the church and Christian organizations has kind of waned over the years.

[00:00:29] There's a real need to come back to the basics so we're going to take some of those qualifications that you can find in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and others to begin to address this issue.

[00:00:41] And this is a resource that I think you would want to apply to your church, to Christian organizations, maybe pass on to others.

[00:00:48] We're going to look at the various qualifications in say the devotional life, the private life and the public life of individuals and to really begin to use that as a grid to evaluate what some of these individuals in positions of leadership should be manifesting.

[00:01:05] These are not just suggestions but really essentials to really evaluate Christian leadership.

[00:01:11] And this is something that I think you're going to benefit from in a book that's been out for a while called Workers for Your Joy, The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders.

[00:01:21] It is written by David Mathis and he serves as the senior teacher and the executive editor of DesiringGod.org.

[00:01:30] He's a pastor of Cities Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.

[00:01:33] Also an adjunct professor at Bethlehem College and Seminary, which is there in Minneapolis.

[00:01:39] Author of several books including Habits of Grace and Joying Jesus Through the Spiritual Disciplines.

[00:01:44] But this one where we're going to be looking at Christian leaders with the title Workers for Your Joy is published by Crossway Books.

[00:01:52] You might be able to find it in your local bookstore, but we have information about it on our website if you would want to order as well.

[00:01:58] David, welcome to Point of View.

[00:02:01] Thank you, Kerry.

[00:02:02] It's a joy of talking to you.

[00:02:03] You know, we live in an age, as you point out, in a world where we are pretty cynical of leadership.

[00:02:09] I spend some time on this program talking about political leadership, but we also talk about church leadership.

[00:02:15] And this is why I think this book and this conversation is so important because especially inside the church,

[00:02:24] you would hope that our leaders would be more exemplary than we see outside of the church.

[00:02:31] Sometimes, maybe even I can say oftentimes that's the case, but there's just a lot more to do.

[00:02:36] And in some respects, that's why you wrote the book.

[00:02:39] That's right, yes.

[00:02:41] And so those are some really important topics to begin to address.

[00:02:45] And so what I want to do is kind of break it down in the fact that you spend a fair amount of time just really understanding our attitude,

[00:02:52] and that would be kind of this issue of humility, and really even developing this idea of a Christian vision of leadership.

[00:03:00] And I know that we've had people on this program from the Howard Hendricks Center for Christian Leadership.

[00:03:06] Maybe that's the start because it seems to me that oftentimes we recognize that Christ is the head of the church,

[00:03:12] but he also in Ephesians 4, we see Paul saying that he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, the teachers to equip the saints.

[00:03:22] And so we need to sort of understand that hierarchy, don't we?

[00:03:26] We do.

[00:03:27] You know, it is amazing that we have so much in the New Testament on leadership qualifications.

[00:03:33] I think so often if we're taking our cues from the business world or from politics or just even the best of conversations about leadership in society,

[00:03:43] we're going to miss some real key elements, and the fact that the Bible has so much to say, Jesus has things to say.

[00:03:49] The apostle Paul has so much to say about Christian leaders and about the kind of virtues that are critical for Christian leaders,

[00:03:56] the kind of character that's in place.

[00:03:58] It's an extraordinary thing that we have the kind of guidance that we do in the New Testament.

[00:04:01] On the one hand, it's sad that some have overlooked that or neglected that or discounted that,

[00:04:09] and the payoff for that has been catastrophic and terribly sad in many places and those kinds of stories.

[00:04:16] You know, our current media and social media love to magnify, but there's others.

[00:04:22] There's a long tradition of others who are faithful to the Bible, quiet local churches where we use these qualifications

[00:04:29] and they really mean something, and they help us select people who are not just good leaders in society's terms,

[00:04:35] but who are spiritual leaders, who are Christian leaders.

[00:04:38] There's only so much.

[00:04:40] There are things that we can glean and benefit from good leadership practices in society, but there's only so much.

[00:04:48] Christian leadership is distinct.

[00:04:50] Yes.

[00:04:50] And as we'll see in the qualifications, there are some key notes that are struck that you will not find in corporate America.

[00:04:57] Well said.

[00:04:58] Good.

[00:04:58] Again, the book is over 300 pages.

[00:05:00] As a matter of fact, 300 pages of content and then about two dozen pages of study questions.

[00:05:05] So if you, as we go through this, are thinking this would be good for me to study,

[00:05:10] but it might be even better for my entire deacon board, elder board, maybe pastoral staff to study.

[00:05:16] That is the case.

[00:05:17] And just one more point before we get into some of those qualifications, David,

[00:05:20] and that is, as I understand it, these concepts and even the approach that you have emerged from your teaching of seminary students at Bethlehem College and Seminary.

[00:05:31] So talk about how those particular insights, if you will, ended up in the book.

[00:05:38] Yeah, thanks, Kirby.

[00:05:39] That's helpful to give some background.

[00:05:42] As a seminary student and being young in ministry, I never aspired to really teach about eldership or the pastoral office.

[00:05:51] I think my preference would have been to teach on Christology or the epistle to the Hebrews.

[00:05:56] But this is the assignment I got a little over 12 years ago at Bethlehem College and Seminary.

[00:06:01] They said, we need someone to teach the eldership class.

[00:06:04] And so as we embarked on that class, there was some material we were using at the time,

[00:06:08] and I would use that to work through with the guys.

[00:06:10] This would be anywhere from 15 to 20 guys who were studying to be vocational pastors,

[00:06:16] who were at the front end, hopefully, of a career of being in Christian ministry full-time.

[00:06:21] And as we went through those various topics, I tried to think about, you know,

[00:06:26] what are some things these guys need to discuss very practically before getting into Christian ministry,

[00:06:31] trying to draw on some of my own experience as well as conversations with older leaders

[00:06:36] and other texts on spiritual leadership.

[00:06:38] What are some of the key practical topics that need to be addressed?

[00:06:42] And, Kirby, the amazing discovery that came along the way is that the elder qualifications

[00:06:48] are strikingly relevant to the flashpoint, the practical ministry issues that the guys are going to face in any generation.

[00:06:57] And so as I sought to see inroads into practical topics,

[00:07:01] it was remarkable that the elder qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus 1,

[00:07:06] some of the additional attributes that we get, say, in 1 Peter 5, Hebrews 13, 2 Timothy 2,

[00:07:11] that these were amazing inroads to the pastoral office itself.

[00:07:16] It's almost as if the Apostle Paul knew what he was talking about.

[00:07:19] Imagine that.

[00:07:20] So that was the big discovery along the way.

[00:07:23] And to try to change it up a little bit, sometimes if you change the order of things,

[00:07:30] that can be insightful for learners, just to come at something from a different standpoint.

[00:07:35] So instead of going straight through the elder qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and order,

[00:07:39] I wanted to see through, like, what are these getting at?

[00:07:42] And so I was able to identify over time about three categories of qualifications.

[00:07:48] One related to the elder, the pastor, in private before his God.

[00:07:55] Another in his private life, say, in his home and in various private spheres.

[00:08:00] And then the third, and this is very significant, is the public life.

[00:08:04] The pastoral office is a public office.

[00:08:06] And so how the man appears and behaves himself in public is an aspect.

[00:08:11] So before God, before those who know him best, and then third, before watching church and world.

[00:08:17] Those are the three kind of categories that we go through in the book.

[00:08:19] And then we take those elder qualifications in a fresh order based on those three categories.

[00:08:24] We're going to take a break, but we'll start off with this idea of men before God.

[00:08:28] And then, of course, men where they are known the best inside the church.

[00:08:32] And then finally, men before the watching world.

[00:08:34] So we'll break that down.

[00:08:35] You might want to turn to 1 Timothy 2 and follow along.

[00:08:39] 1 Timothy 3 and some of the other passages, Titus 1 and 2.

[00:08:42] We'll get into each one of those.

[00:08:44] But we need to take a break.

[00:08:45] We'll be back right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] We have learned over the last few years how the government and various media outlets have engaged in systematic censorship.

[00:09:08] It is one thing to talk about the problem of censorship, but it is quite another to do something about it.

[00:09:13] A recent commentary by Caitlin Richardson provides a glimpse into what the incoming Trump administration plans to do about censorship.

[00:09:21] Andrew Ferguson has been nominated by Trump as the new Federal Trade Commission chair.

[00:09:26] He said in a recent interview that Trump can cut off some censorship outright by ordering officials from participating with platforms and by cutting off funding for entities that suppress speech.

[00:09:36] Brendan Carr will head the FCC and has addressed concerns about censorship.

[00:09:41] In one of his interviews, he explains that one of his top priorities would be to smash this censorship cartel.

[00:09:47] Harmeet Dillon has been nominated to run the DOJ's civil rights division.

[00:09:52] She worked with her firm on a case challenging the California Secretary of State's office coordination with the Twitter to suppress speech.

[00:10:00] Even Trump appointees who aren't working directly on free speech will likely have an impact.

[00:10:05] Trump's nominee for NIH is Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, who co-authored the Great Barrington Declaration that challenged COVID-19 lockdowns and responses.

[00:10:14] And HHS nominee Robert F. Kennedy filed a lawsuit against the Biden administration for alleged First Amendment violations.

[00:10:22] Of course, much of the fight against censorship will come from Donald Trump himself.

[00:10:26] In one campaign video, he promised to shatter the left-wing censorship regime.

[00:10:31] He will likely sign an executive order banning agencies from collaborating with social media to suppress speech.

[00:10:38] This is good news for free speech in America.

[00:10:41] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view of Israel, go to viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:53] Viewpoints.info.com.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Our topic is Christian leaders.

[00:11:05] The book is entitled Workers for Your Joy.

[00:11:08] David Mathis is the author, and Crossway is the publisher.

[00:11:11] And we're going to look at this whole idea of men before their God.

[00:11:15] How Christ appoints his pastors, not a novice or arrogant.

[00:11:19] Pastors are teachers, and pastors need to keep their head in a conflicted world.

[00:11:25] And I guess, David, we just begin by 1 Timothy 3.

[00:11:28] If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

[00:11:34] And so you really take us through how God calls an individual to be a pastor of a church or to be a leader of a Christian organization.

[00:11:43] So share just maybe an insight or two about that, because that certainly acknowledges that God calls.

[00:11:50] But sometimes people wonder how that actually takes place.

[00:11:54] That's right.

[00:11:55] I thought it would be helpful at the very outset to address the issue of calling.

[00:11:58] I think so many of us have something right in our way of thinking about calling, but we may not have the full picture together.

[00:12:05] So what I try to bring there is three different aspects that are important, maybe three angles on the one calling of God, how he makes his calling of someone manifest.

[00:12:15] You know, sometimes we have a very spiritualized or even like an old covenant view of it, thinking that our call should be kind of like Ezekiel's call or Jeremiah's or Isaiah's.

[00:12:24] But that's not quite how it works.

[00:12:26] It's not how Paul talks about the call.

[00:12:27] So one thing he mentioned here in 1 Timothy 3, amazingly, is he talks about aspiring to the work, desiring to do the job, which is a remarkable thing.

[00:12:37] Some of us might have the instinct to think, oh, you know, if I'm going to be effective in ministry, this needs to be something, you know, I don't really want to do, but I'm duty-bound to it.

[00:12:47] I will do this great thing for God.

[00:12:50] I'll answer the call, like you might answer the call to serve in duty for the sake of your country in a war but not really want to do it.

[00:12:56] That's not the way that Paul talks about the office.

[00:12:59] He talks about someone aspiring to the office.

[00:13:02] So the work begins in the heart.

[00:13:05] God loves to begin to change us from the inside out and put a desire for the work of the ministry, a desire to preach, a desire to teach the Bible, a desire to counsel others, a desire to do the work of the ministry in the heart of the person he's beginning to call.

[00:13:20] But it doesn't only happen in the heart.

[00:13:22] Sometimes we might have this simplistic perspective of, oh, I feel called to ministry in my heart.

[00:13:28] Therefore, I am called to ministry.

[00:13:30] And that's not how Paul or the apostles would put it together.

[00:13:33] So it begins in the heart with aspirations.

[00:13:36] But then there's also confirmation from those around us, like in our home church, in our family, those who know us best, who would help confirm that.

[00:13:43] You know, is our aspiration true?

[00:13:46] Is it wise?

[00:13:47] Is it from the Lord?

[00:13:48] Or is it one of our old sinful desires that's gone awry?

[00:13:52] So other people in our lives can help us.

[00:13:55] You know, is there some fruit?

[00:13:56] Is there some ability even that others would see in us and say, yeah, that's a fit.

[00:14:01] I could see you being a pastor.

[00:14:03] I could see that being a good thing.

[00:14:04] I think that's worth pursuing seminary or some course of study to get ready for the ministry.

[00:14:09] So there's the internal aspiration.

[00:14:12] Then there's an external confirmation from fellow Christians.

[00:14:15] But then the last one, and I think this one is often the most overlooked, that the call to ministry is confirmed in the providence of God by a real-life opportunity.

[00:14:27] Of course.

[00:14:28] Of course.

[00:14:56] So until that real-life opportunity in the providence of God happens, the call has not yet been fulfilled.

[00:15:02] And that's the extension of the call.

[00:15:04] That's the way the Holy Spirit works, to bring about a true call to the ministry in reality, working through our hearts internally, the confirmation of others, and then some real-life opportunity where a church says, hey, would you be one of our officers?

[00:15:20] And then at that moment you would know, I'm called and I'm in my calling until God changes circumstances otherwise.

[00:15:26] Again, some of it's internal, some of it's external.

[00:15:30] Wisdom of many counselors, all of that comes together.

[00:15:33] One of the other chapters I'll skip over because I think people probably understand that.

[00:15:37] Not a novice or arrogant.

[00:15:39] She should not be a recent convert or be puffed up with conceit.

[00:15:41] I think most people have seen that because I wanted to focus on one of the things that is not in 1 Timothy, but in 2 Timothy.

[00:15:48] Pastors keep their head in a conflicted world.

[00:15:51] As for you, always be sober-minded.

[00:15:55] And this, of course, may be one of the last, if not the last letter that Paul writes to Timothy.

[00:16:00] But this idea of being sober-minded, that was true in the first century with persecution.

[00:16:05] But I guarantee you, it is really important here in the 21st century with all the different pressures on pastors, churches,

[00:16:13] all the different conflicting ideas and views and values of finding that individual and being that individual is going to be really key in this world, isn't it?

[00:16:25] That's right.

[00:16:26] Yeah, there are whatever the forces, it's complicated.

[00:16:29] I do think that as we as a society continue to learn how to use the power of the Internet and smartphones and social media,

[00:16:39] there's a lot of distortion, discombobulation that's happening, even discerning what's real and what's unreal,

[00:16:46] like how highly online people are or not, how much their sense of the world is provided by their various news sources online

[00:16:56] versus what's actually going on in their locale.

[00:16:58] Now, these are some of the issues that have many off balance in our day.

[00:17:02] And there is.

[00:17:03] It is there in 1 Timothy 3.

[00:17:04] He must be sober-minded.

[00:17:06] And then you're right, also 2 Timothy 4 in particular, that great preach the word passage, Paul says,

[00:17:13] Timothy, one of the last things, always be sober-minded.

[00:17:17] And the NIV says, always keep your head.

[00:17:22] I think that's such a relevant way of saying it.

[00:17:25] I think that is an accurate way of getting at it, that in our times, I mean, in all times, it was nuts in the first century.

[00:17:32] And it was crazy in the 1790s.

[00:17:34] There's been all sorts of times that have been really discombobulated and very difficult for people to keep their heads.

[00:17:40] And we live in those times as well.

[00:17:42] And it's so important that our leaders, plural leaders, that's a major theme in this book, that the churches, there's no church in the New Testament that's led just by one single local leader.

[00:17:54] There's always a plurality, always a team of leaders.

[00:17:57] And we do well to learn from that and try to get back to that as much as we're able in the 21st century to have teams of leaders.

[00:18:03] But in our times, we need people who know how to keep their heads.

[00:18:07] And especially when we have mature, sober-minded leaders together serving as a team, that is a great stabilizing and balancing force for a church.

[00:18:18] In the crazy changes of the times, there can be this trend and that trend and this trend and seesaw, pendulum swing back and forth and all sorts of cultural confusion.

[00:18:27] And for a group of leaders in a church, a group of pastor elders, to be able to keep their heads and provide that kind of steady, balanced, sober-minded teaching and leadership for a congregation is really invaluable.

[00:18:42] You know, again, you give some of the verses, too.

[00:18:44] 1 Timothy 4, have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths.

[00:18:49] 1 Timothy 6, avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

[00:18:55] For by professing it, some have swerved from the faith of 2 Timothy 2.

[00:19:01] Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies.

[00:19:04] You know that they breed quarrels.

[00:19:06] You know, back to this issue of the Internet.

[00:19:08] If that was true in the first century, it's really true now.

[00:19:11] I mean, you've got conspiracy theories.

[00:19:13] You've got people that are dealing with certain kind of political trends, different kind of candidates.

[00:19:18] As we get into an election year, you get even more of those.

[00:19:21] So if many of those warnings that Paul was giving to Timothy back then were true, they're even more true today.

[00:19:29] And I think it illustrates, again, why we're looking for those kinds of pastors.

[00:19:33] But we do need to take a break.

[00:19:34] So let me, if I can, just mention before we get into the next section that one of the other things that makes your book so valuable is the fact that you have a whole section of questions and steady questions.

[00:19:48] So that really the way you've put this together, not only can an individual study this, but this would be just a great group study, wouldn't it?

[00:19:56] That's my hope.

[00:19:57] The book was designed in working with a group of seminary guys year after year.

[00:20:02] And these are the kind of questions I drafted over time and had some help on.

[00:20:05] I really want it to be.

[00:20:07] I want it to be able to serve individuals.

[00:20:08] But in particular, I've got a group in mind, maybe a cohort of guys who are training for the ministry or who aspire to office, that this would be a resource they can work through together.

[00:20:18] Very good.

[00:20:19] Let's take a break.

[00:20:19] When we come back, we will move into the next section.

[00:20:22] Again, I'm going through this fairly quickly.

[00:20:24] It's a 300-page book.

[00:20:25] Obviously, we can't cover everything.

[00:20:27] But we've talked about humbled men before their God, part two, whole, men where they are known best.

[00:20:35] And so we're going to get into the issue of self-control and certainly some of the qualifications or disqualifications in that regard.

[00:20:44] Some of the temptations.

[00:20:46] And, of course, it's sex, money, power.

[00:20:48] You can imagine some of those as well.

[00:20:50] And the need to be a good dad if, indeed, you're going to be a pastor.

[00:20:55] And then in the last section, we'll talk about men before the watching world.

[00:20:59] But it's all part of a book that I would recommend.

[00:21:02] It's been around for some time.

[00:21:03] You might already find it in your local bookstore.

[00:21:05] But if not, we've made it very easy for you to order.

[00:21:09] We have information about that on the website at pointofview.ness.

[00:21:13] A Worker for Your Joy.

[00:21:15] The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders.

[00:21:17] Pointofview.net.

[00:21:19] And we'll continue our conversation right after this.

[00:21:30] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:21:36] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:21:39] People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics.

[00:21:45] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:21:49] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:21:53] You feel like giving up.

[00:21:54] But we can't.

[00:21:56] We shouldn't.

[00:21:56] We must not.

[00:21:58] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:22:02] Never give in.

[00:22:04] Never give in.

[00:22:05] Never, never, never.

[00:22:07] Never yield to force.

[00:22:08] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:22:12] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:22:15] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:22:23] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:22:30] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:22:38] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:51] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Continue our conversation today with David Mathis.

[00:23:15] And again, the book is entitled Workers for Your Joy, A Call of Christ on Christian Leaders.

[00:23:20] We've talked about men before their God.

[00:23:23] What about now men who are known the best?

[00:23:25] What about what they are doing inside the walls of the church?

[00:23:29] And we're going to focus on some of that.

[00:23:32] And then at the end, we'll also look at men before the watching world.

[00:23:36] But it is interesting, Dave, as we get into this whole section in the church,

[00:23:41] I've written about the idea of abusive churches and how to think about that from a biblical point of view.

[00:23:48] And oftentimes, we talk about some of the failures of church leaders because of sex and money.

[00:23:54] But one that gets left out, but this is the first one you talk about, it's power.

[00:23:59] And that is going to Titus 2, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.

[00:24:06] And you take us through this whole idea of the incredible power that pastors really do have.

[00:24:13] There's the power of the office, the power of influence, even the power of the team, how to leverage power.

[00:24:21] How you deal with this power that you get, especially if you're in a fairly prominent church,

[00:24:28] really, again, takes you back to your character.

[00:24:32] But it is striking that whether Paul is talking about this in his letters to Timothy or in this one to Titus,

[00:24:40] that surfaces time and time again and tells me we need to pay attention to it.

[00:24:46] That's right.

[00:24:47] In our day, sometimes the conversation and criticisms related to power can give the sense and the feel that

[00:24:53] to have power is a bad thing.

[00:24:56] Power is a bad thing.

[00:24:58] Divest yourself of any power.

[00:24:59] It's some kind of game of hot potato.

[00:25:01] That's not the way the New Testament talks about power.

[00:25:03] It's a gift to be used for good and, in our sin, a danger for ill.

[00:25:10] So we talked earlier about the qualifications and that there's some kinds of ability that are important in pastoral ministry.

[00:25:18] One of those, as specified in 1 Timothy 3, is the ability to teach.

[00:25:23] It says to be able to teach.

[00:25:24] The Greek word didactic cost means that someone is equipped to teach and that they're eager to do the teaching

[00:25:31] and that they're effective at doing it.

[00:25:33] So there's a kind of power there.

[00:25:35] This is someone who has had training, so they've honed.

[00:25:39] They may have some natural abilities, but they also have practiced and honed those abilities.

[00:25:43] They've studied the Bible.

[00:25:44] They're good at presenting and teaching and preaching, so there's ability there.

[00:25:49] And then we even up the ante on that.

[00:25:52] Like, we increase that in a good way with this thing called office.

[00:25:55] We make someone official, official as a pastor or official as a deacon.

[00:26:01] And then, in addition to that, in many contexts, as it should be, according to the New Testament,

[00:26:07] pastors work together as a team.

[00:26:08] And so in a team context, there's a kind of pooling of power, a pooling together of power.

[00:26:14] So put all these layers together.

[00:26:16] You have someone probably with natural abilities in terms of leadership and communication,

[00:26:22] and then you have someone who's trained in those areas and practiced it and become more proficient,

[00:26:28] someone who's been given an official title as pastor,

[00:26:32] and then someone who's part of a pastoral team where you can pool power if you work together.

[00:26:36] And so in a church context, the pastor should realize that they have a lot of ability.

[00:26:42] It's God-given ability.

[00:26:44] It's God-given power.

[00:26:45] And that's meant to be used for the good of the flock.

[00:26:48] A danger among a group of sinners is that as they gather together and look around the room

[00:26:55] and tough decisions face them, they begin to default toward serving the people in the room

[00:27:01] rather than serving the good of the flock.

[00:27:03] It's a danger for every group of redeemed sinners.

[00:27:07] And so good pastors will take honestly the fact that they have power.

[00:27:13] There's an ability.

[00:27:14] There's a power in the pastoral office and in the ability to teach and represent God through his word.

[00:27:19] And they'll take that seriously.

[00:27:21] And in humility, they'll want to steward that power for the good of the church.

[00:27:25] Put those teaching giftings to use for the good of the people, that you would explain the scriptures to them,

[00:27:31] that you would help feed them, help meet their needs, help provide direction,

[00:27:35] help provide wise governance that would be for the good of the flock,

[00:27:39] not for the personal, private, selfish interests of the leadership.

[00:27:43] That's a big axis.

[00:27:45] That's a big fork in the road that leaders often come to in quiet, late-night moments of meetings

[00:27:51] that decide, are we really serving the good of the flock here, or are we just making our preferences actionable?

[00:27:58] And it's a small thing, but over time it leads to big roads diverging, so to speak, in pastoral life and ministry.

[00:28:07] And so good pastors learn the kind of power they have, they crucify the flesh,

[00:28:14] and together they try to put that power and ability into the service of the good of the church,

[00:28:19] and not their own private gain.

[00:28:22] You know, one of the chapters, of course, deals with the issue of money.

[00:28:25] And, of course, money, power go together sometimes, but you've got a balance here.

[00:28:29] On the one hand, we believe that a pastor is worthy of double honor.

[00:28:34] It doesn't necessarily mean double pay, but on the one hand, we don't want to get to the point

[00:28:40] where they're so strapped that they eventually have to leave the ministry to just go back and recover.

[00:28:47] And there have been churches certainly that have not been using fairness and justice to pay them,

[00:28:55] but we have some on the other extreme as well.

[00:28:59] And so it is, I think, one of those key elements that the pastor, but also the board that keeps them accountable,

[00:29:07] whether it's elders or deacons or whatever, trustees, to begin to navigate through those temptations as well.

[00:29:15] That's right.

[00:29:16] It's so important.

[00:29:17] The dynamic here is so critical.

[00:29:20] The best scenario is where a church wants to be generous with its pastor.

[00:29:26] The church doesn't want to handcuff the pastor.

[00:29:29] The church doesn't want to make its pastor's lives difficult.

[00:29:32] The church would like to see that the pastor has enough that he himself can be generous with others.

[00:29:38] So the church wants to be, a good church wants to be generous with its pastors,

[00:29:42] and then good pastors themselves want to be generous.

[00:29:45] They're not greedy.

[00:29:45] They're not trying to amass wealth or exorbitant fortunes or live in constant luxuries.

[00:29:53] Their focus is on teaching and caring for the people, and they're delighted that the people meet their needs.

[00:29:59] And so if you can find humble pastors who are not greedy,

[00:30:03] it's really like pastors who aren't greedy and also churches that aren't greedy.

[00:30:07] But the churches who want to be generous with their pastors,

[00:30:10] then we come into the best dynamic where the church is thinking well for the pastor,

[00:30:14] and all the while the pastor is thinking well for the church and not having to think and angle for his own financial needs.

[00:30:22] But he's well cared for.

[00:30:24] Well, good balance and well said.

[00:30:26] Just before we take a break, the tragedy of distracted dads,

[00:30:30] and that gets into the fact of 1 Timothy 3,

[00:30:34] he must manage his own household well with all dignity, keeping his children submissive.

[00:30:39] For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

[00:30:44] And it does seem to me that we've all heard stories, maybe even experienced some,

[00:30:49] in which we talk about the pastor's kids that are rebellious.

[00:30:53] We talk about the pastor who is focusing on the flock but never on his own family.

[00:30:58] And that warning that Paul gives is something we should really pay attention to,

[00:31:03] especially given the distractions that exist in the 21st century.

[00:31:08] Yeah, that's right.

[00:31:09] I mean, dads today are still learning how to deal with this.

[00:31:12] So I'm 43, and I have been a father now for the last 13 1⁄2 years.

[00:31:18] And so I've been learning how to be a dad in the age of the smartphone.

[00:31:22] My wife and I got married on the day that Apple released the iPhone back in 2007.

[00:31:28] And as a millennial, I've been trying to deal with this.

[00:31:32] I know many my age.

[00:31:33] I know people in my parents' generation who are dealing with this,

[00:31:38] and maybe some in that older generation got started a little bit later on some of the technology,

[00:31:43] and they're a little later on learning to deal with it with self-control as well.

[00:31:47] But across the board, this is a major issue in our day, and especially for us as parents.

[00:31:52] You know, it's one thing for someone who's single to over-consume on the Internet

[00:31:58] and be constantly distracted by their phone.

[00:32:00] But as we come into marriage and then come into having children

[00:32:05] and then come into having further responsibilities, say, being in a pastoral office,

[00:32:09] that little distraction, the constant distraction in our pocket,

[00:32:13] if we are giving in and creating habits that are detrimental to life in the real analog world

[00:32:20] where we have responsibilities, where if we would only open our eyes,

[00:32:24] the three-dimensional joys are so far better than the ones reduced to two dimensions

[00:32:29] on our silly little pocket pixels.

[00:32:31] This is a major issue in our day, and pastors need to learn how to use the good,

[00:32:36] pastors and fathers, all fathers, learn to use the good that can come through these devices that we carry,

[00:32:41] and then also learn how not to be distracted by these devices,

[00:32:46] these little two-dimensional worlds, from our calling and our better joys in the real world.

[00:32:51] Well said.

[00:32:52] Let's take a break, and when we come back, we'll focus some time and attention on that last area,

[00:32:56] men before the watching world.

[00:32:58] And, of course, we're talking about individuals that are above reproach.

[00:33:03] We're talking about how to maybe address some of these very controversial issues

[00:33:10] and when to pick a fight, when to walk away,

[00:33:13] when it is essential to really address a very important theological issue

[00:33:19] and when not to make that an important issue.

[00:33:21] There are some really incredible insights in that section.

[00:33:25] And then, as I've mentioned before, not only are there a number of appendices,

[00:33:29] but also study questions.

[00:33:31] This is a book I think would be very helpful for you

[00:33:34] and for people in your sphere of influence.

[00:33:37] So, again, we will take a break, continue our conversation with Dave Mathis right after this.

[00:33:55] Whenever there's a new session of Congress,

[00:33:57] the House of Representatives adopts a new set of rules to govern the way it conducts business.

[00:34:01] Four years ago, then-speaker Nancy Pelosi introduced,

[00:34:04] and the House passed a resolution aimed at making all House rules, quote-unquote, gender-inclusive.

[00:34:10] The resolution expunged sex-specific words from House rules.

[00:34:14] So where the terms father and mother had previously appeared in the House Code of Official Conduct,

[00:34:19] they were replaced with parent, husband and wife became spouse,

[00:34:23] son and daughter became child, and brother and sister, sibling.

[00:34:26] It really gets awkward.

[00:34:28] Aunt and uncle were replaced with parent-sibling, and cousin became sibling's child.

[00:34:33] For in-laws, the terms are parent-in-law, child-in-law, and sibling-in-law.

[00:34:37] The absurd list goes on.

[00:34:39] There's even a section that eliminates all gendered terms.

[00:34:42] To be clear, these changes only affected the rules document

[00:34:45] and do not prevent the House members from using gendered language in floor speeches or legislation.

[00:34:51] But this hat-tip to the far-left's desire to eliminate every distinction between the sexes is silly

[00:34:56] and just makes it harder to communicate clearly.

[00:34:59] This ridiculous action by the 117th Congress should have been reversed two years ago by the 118th Congress.

[00:35:05] But, with extended wrangling over who would be speaker, this crucial task was skipped.

[00:35:10] The Wall Street Journal recently published an op-ed by Washington attorney Eileen O'Connor

[00:35:15] calling on members to now complete what she calls the House's unfinished gender business

[00:35:20] and restore the pre-117th Congress's language.

[00:35:23] That language, Ms. O'Connor argues, is the opposite of gender-inclusive.

[00:35:27] It denies the existence of the sexes and the words used to describe their relationships to each other.

[00:35:33] She writes,

[00:35:33] When even elected officials can't bring themselves to acknowledge the basic facts of life,

[00:35:38] it is no wonder the rest of society loses its nerve as well.

[00:35:42] The House should restore clarity to its rules and eschew all gender-blending nonsense.

[00:35:47] For Point of View, I'm Penna Dexter.

[00:35:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:36:00] Continuing our conversation today with David Mathis.

[00:36:02] And again, we're talking about the fact that this is a book that really helps us understand Christian leaders,

[00:36:09] Workers for Your Joy, and is published, of course, by Crossway.

[00:36:13] And we're looking at Men Before the Watching World.

[00:36:16] And, of course, the first key, you can find it in 1 Timothy 3.

[00:36:20] Of course, you can also find it in Titus 1.

[00:36:22] But let's look at the one in 1 Timothy 3.

[00:36:24] An overseer must be above reproach.

[00:36:27] He must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into the snare of the devil.

[00:36:35] Back in Titus 1, it talks about being above reproach.

[00:36:38] And as a steward, you must be above reproach.

[00:36:40] So this idea of being honorable before the watching world is really very key.

[00:36:47] And I think sometimes helps us understand that when you look at somebody who's above reproach,

[00:36:54] That really, as you said, is the first requirement of Christian leaders.

[00:36:58] Because Paul warns about what happens if, indeed, we don't have individuals that are above reproach before the watching world.

[00:37:07] That's right.

[00:37:08] It leads the list, remarkably, in 1 Timothy 3.

[00:37:11] And, again, in Titus 1, and it's doubled down on, I was just reading through Acts 6, where the seven come along for the first time.

[00:37:18] You know, Stephen and Philip and the other five.

[00:37:19] And the first qualification given there is they must be of good repute.

[00:37:24] Have a good reputation.

[00:37:26] So sometimes that surprises people.

[00:37:30] They think, oh, you know, as Christians, like, our main concern isn't what people think, isn't what the world thinks.

[00:37:37] Like, isn't having a good reputation, those kind of things.

[00:37:40] But this is not the nature of Christianity at its heart.

[00:37:45] The first principle of Christianity is have a good reputation with the world.

[00:37:49] We're talking here about Christian leadership.

[00:37:51] We're talking about office.

[00:37:53] And office is an official capacity.

[00:37:55] It's a public institution where you say publicly to the church and to the world, these are our officers.

[00:38:03] Here are our pastors.

[00:38:04] Here are our deacons.

[00:38:05] Here are the people who are official in this congregation.

[00:38:08] And the very nature of the role is public.

[00:38:11] And so when we're talking about that public role, we talk about these public qualifications.

[00:38:16] And above reproach is the first thing that leads the list.

[00:38:19] In some minds, that might be – we may see this either too high or too low.

[00:38:25] Some people might say, oh, above reproach, does that mean sinless?

[00:38:28] Like, I'm not sinless.

[00:38:30] And of course, you're not.

[00:38:32] You're not.

[00:38:32] That's not what above reproach means.

[00:38:34] It's actually a pretty, what, low bar, so to speak?

[00:38:39] By above reproach is meant that there's nothing that's out there and obvious and public that is a problem with you and your leadership just as much on Christ's terms as on the world's terms.

[00:38:52] Now, if there are people who have lost their ever-loving mind in the culture and they're accusing us of crazy things like not affirming this sin or not affirming that sin, that's a very different matter than being above reproach on the very things that Jesus himself teaches.

[00:39:08] So we're talking about on God's established truth through his word, in the mouth of Jesus and his apostles, are Christian men, are they above reproach in Jesus' terms?

[00:39:22] And that's critical in the office.

[00:39:24] The church will be pulled down by those who want to go toe that line and who want to act toward the world in a very worldly way, want to play on the world's terms in terms of language, in terms of postures, in terms of behaviors.

[00:39:38] They will not be above reproach, and I think in that situation they should be disqualified by their local church from that office.

[00:39:46] I said we can talk about the other aspect of that because you've got a chapter on how do pastors pick their fights?

[00:39:52] And in 1 Timothy 3 and 2 Timothy 2, the idea of not quarrelsome, although I love the old King James, not a brawler.

[00:40:00] But we're not talking about somebody who's going to get engaged in what they call fisticuffs or physical.

[00:40:05] But there is a sense in which sometimes you do have to pick your fights.

[00:40:11] I'm thinking of the famous phrase, in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.

[00:40:18] There are times when you can obviously say, that's maybe not a hill I want to die on.

[00:40:25] That is not a fight I need to get involved with.

[00:40:28] But there is the extreme of peace at any price in which we compromise the scriptures.

[00:40:36] And then the other in which we're always fighting about this, that, or the other.

[00:40:40] We're to speak truth in love.

[00:40:43] And I think there are times when we're dealing with the essentials of the Christian faith.

[00:40:47] We cannot compromise.

[00:40:49] And those are times when I think we do fight.

[00:40:51] But there are other things that maybe I don't want to pick a fight on because a person's salvation or even the doctrinal integrity of the church isn't really at stake because of the color of the carpet or the drapes.

[00:41:04] What are your thoughts?

[00:41:05] Well, you know, the eldership qualification is ESV has not quarrelsome.

[00:41:10] Yes, I love the King James.

[00:41:12] It still translates all these centuries later.

[00:41:14] Not a brawler.

[00:41:15] Some translations have not pugnacious.

[00:41:17] Ignatious.

[00:41:19] The Greek word there is literally not a fighter.

[00:41:24] That's where they get the not quarrelsome from.

[00:41:26] And another, a positive meaning, if you wanted to say positively what that means, you could use the word peaceable.

[00:41:34] Yes.

[00:41:34] I mean, somebody who, like Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers.

[00:41:39] Elders, pastors should be peacemakers.

[00:41:41] Now, there's two different ways to make peace.

[00:41:43] Sometimes you make and keep peace by just ignoring stupid stuff that's not going anywhere, and you're not constantly having a fight and brawling here and there.

[00:41:53] Another way to make peace is that when there's really a problem, you address it so that on the other side of the struggle, you pursue peace.

[00:42:03] You don't say peace, peace when there is no peace, but you pursue peace by taking seriously serious charges to, like you said there, Kirby, the essentials.

[00:42:14] That would be an important thing.

[00:42:15] And in particular, in 2 Timothy chapter 2, at the end of 2 Timothy 2, Paul talks about a whole demeanor and way of approaching various conflicts in the church by Christian leaders, which I think is so important.

[00:42:30] That even when it would be the doctrine of the Trinity or the word of God or the divinity of Jesus or justification by faith, one of our major doctrines, even when it would be one of those essentials, there's a particular approach.

[00:42:44] It doesn't just mean go in and battle on the world's terms, battle with all manner of unrighteousness towards the good end of a good cause.

[00:42:52] Rather, Paul gives us this.

[00:42:54] He says, let the Lord's servant not be quarrelsome.

[00:42:59] There's the same language from the other qualifications, but, and now here's the positive things he says, but kind to everyone, able to teach.

[00:43:08] So even in conflict that a pastor would teach, would have the kind of perspective and heart of a teacher, not necessarily a judge who's walking in just rendering final verdicts, but a teacher's perspective and patience.

[00:43:21] And that's the next one.

[00:43:23] Patiently enduring evil.

[00:43:25] Mature Christian leaders patiently endure evil as they engage in these essential conflicts.

[00:43:30] And then he says, correcting your opponents.

[00:43:33] And we're like, yes, correct them.

[00:43:34] That's right.

[00:43:35] And then he says, with gentleness.

[00:43:36] Yes.

[00:43:37] There's a way to correct opponents in Christian maturity, in Holy Spirit magnanimity, that you would approach even a conflict on the essentials with kindness, patience, clarity about error.

[00:43:51] And all the while, a kind of gentleness that represents the very heart and power and strength and beauty of Jesus Christ.

[00:43:59] And, and Paul gives a prayer there, that those who have been in error might repent of their ways.

[00:44:06] That God might grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of truth, and they may escape from the devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will.

[00:44:15] So even the whole approach from the pastors in conflict is wanting to win the seeming opponents rather than wanting to destroy them.

[00:44:25] Well said.

[00:44:26] Again, the book is entitled Workers for Your Joy, A Call for Christ on, again, The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders.

[00:44:34] David Mathis with us.

[00:44:36] Again, it is a book published by Crossway, 15 chapters.

[00:44:39] We've only covered less than half of them, five appendices, study questions, and so much more.

[00:44:44] So, David, thank you for writing the book, and thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:44:49] Thank you very much, Kirby.

[00:44:50] It was a joy to talk with you.

[00:44:51] Well, again, we commend this book to you.

[00:44:54] It would be a resource for your personal study.

[00:44:57] It could be something that you could use as a group study, and it's a way in which we can call leaders back to Christian behavior.

[00:45:05] And you've been listening to Point of View.

[00:45:10] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle, not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:45:19] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism, and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon.

[00:45:27] London was in many ways the center of the world, economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:45:34] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports.

[00:45:39] Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers.

[00:45:43] Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:45:48] It is truth for all of life.

[00:45:50] Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today?

[00:45:55] Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:46:07] Every weekday in less than two minutes, you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

[00:46:14] It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now.

[00:46:20] Pointofview.net slash signup.

[00:46:27] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.