Point of View February 24, 2025 – Hour 2 : A Christian’s Guide to Mental Illness

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. Our topic this hour is a mental illness and the reason for that is this new book, A Christians Guide to Mental Illness Answers to 30 Common Questions.

[00:00:30] It is written by Dr. David Murray as well as Tom Carroll. And I might just mention that he's been on the program with us before as we talked about his book, The Happy Christian 10 Ways to Be a Joyful Believer in a Gloomy World. He has written quite a number of books over the years, many of them having to do with this issue of depression or anxiety, this one having to do with mental illness. He has pastored four churches in the UK and the United States. And Dr. David Murray, welcome back to Point of View.

[00:01:01] Thank you, Kirby. Great to be back with you again. Let's if we can maybe just start with the basics. I don't know that we'll cover all 30 questions, although I do love the way this is put together. I might just mention that it's about 230 pages. So these answers aren't so long in detail that people can't understand them. But you've been able to really pull together some of the common questions. And I guess the obvious one to start with is, is what is mental illness?

[00:01:31] I think most people think, well, that's pretty obvious. But the problem is sometimes we have a stereotype about mental illness. And you argue that sometimes that keeps us from even identifying mental illness. Can you explain that? Sure. Yes, it is a much misunderstood label. I think some people hear mental illness and think that, well, the person is the sufferer is completely passive.

[00:02:00] You know, just like you would be if you suffered a heart attack or something like that. Whereas, you know, a mental illness often has some contributory factors from the sufferer. And also the idea of it being a mental illness tends to put people towards thinking about the brain alone.

[00:02:25] Whereas, of course, it has very much emotional effects, also physical effects, as recent research has been showing. But we take the view that although it's not the best label, that it isn't a better one at the moment. And, you know, to invent something that others wouldn't recognize just because it's maybe more accurate, it would not help in getting the message across.

[00:02:53] So it's just to try and recognize the use of the term, the limits of the term, and use it wisely when speaking of someone. Like we don't want to say someone is mentally ill, but someone has mental illness. Mm hmm. Let's if we can maybe jump ahead. If I'd written this book, I might have put question number 11, number two. And it's can a Christian have mental illness? But again, I think there's a reason for the way in which you cover that.

[00:03:21] But I bring it up because we used to run into this problem and this issue more than now. I can remember, and this goes back a few decades ago, some of my colleagues were speaking. And there was a person at this conference that was obviously very troubled. And at the end, one of the Christians in a Christian ministry, very well-known Christian ministry said, Oh, he's just, you know, you need to spend more time in Bible study and maybe more time in scripture memory.

[00:03:49] And I'm looking and going, this person is deeply disturbed. My father used to go into psychiatric wards. And I don't claim to be a counselor, but I know enough to know that this is the kind of person you might have wanted to actually watch 24 seven. And to then just write that off as the fact that, well, he just hasn't grown in his faith. I think illustrates that until fairly recently, maybe that's changed now. There were Christians that said, well, it's impossible for a Christian to have mental illness.

[00:04:19] I think we're a little bit more down the road on that, aren't we? I think you're right in that we are more down the road, but I think there's more road to travel. One of the, we, this book was based on research carried out by folks in the family and Lifeway. And they found in serving evangelicals that nearly half, about 48%, believe that serious mental illness can be overcome with prayer and Bible study alone. Yeah.

[00:04:49] So it's, it's better than a hundred percent. Right. But there's still a lot of, I don't want to use the word ignorance or maybe misinformation to use a much overused term, but it's getting better. I have even in my time here in the United States, 17 years, I've seen, I've seen big progress in the church.

[00:05:11] And I think we are definitely improving and I think we will continue to, as churches, to handle this question. I have to be honest, Kirby, I myself, when I came through seminary, came out believing just what you said there, that Christians cannot be depressed.

[00:05:34] Or if they are, they, they must have been guilty of a terrible serious sin and they need to repent and, you know, get back to join the Lord. And sadly, I took that into my first ministry and therefore was just useless, if not harmful, sadly, to people with mental illness.

[00:05:54] And it actually wasn't until my own wife, who's a very godly, bright, optimistic person, came down with mental illness herself around the birth of our fourth child, that I realized my presuppositions, my framework for understanding these conditions was completely wrong.

[00:06:13] And it took a while, but through education, through experience, through chatting things through with my wife, gradually came to see it much more holistically as involving, yes, at times a spiritual element, but also just there's, there are physical elements at play. There's trauma, there's genetics, and therefore, yes, Christians can have mental illness.

[00:06:37] In fact, my first book was Christians get depressed too, which was not what I initially believed. Right. And I, yeah, I think that we're human, you know, therefore we, our bodies are broken, our brains are broken, we live in a broken world, we get stressed out, worn down. And therefore, you know, as long as we're part of humanity, we're going to suffer like the rest of humanity.

[00:07:01] Well, again, I've sometimes used the illustration that to say, just get out of it, is to say to your brain, like a person saying to your pancreas, you've got diabetes, just get out of it, you know, just a little prayer, a little bit of Bible study, and you'll produce enough insulin, everything will be working fine. And we know that's not the case. And one of the things I love about this book, and we'll take a break and then come back and get into a little bit more, is both you and Tom share your story.

[00:07:30] And in yours, you say, I cannot remember anyone talking about mental illness when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. You talk about the fact that you knew a popular teen girl that committed suicide. And, of course, that is something we need to pay attention to more than ever. And so, again, you so wish that somebody had maybe talked about what is mental illness and all of the rest.

[00:07:53] I do say that we have had probably more people on this program over the last couple of years talking about the emotional issues and mental issues, because I think we need to. And, of course, we've seen just an incredible increase in loneliness, depression, anxiety, suicide ideation. So we're going to take a break, and when we come back, this is a book I really highly recommend to you. It is published by our good friends at Crossway. It is called A Christian's Guide to Mental Illness, Answers to the 30 Common Questions.

[00:08:22] You've heard answers to two of those 30. We'll see if we can cover a few more in the next hour, but I think you will benefit from this. If you're a pastor, if you're a parent, if you're a Sunday school teacher, I can't imagine that you wouldn't want to have this book in your possession, on your shelf, and readily available to answer some of the questions that you will encounter if you're a caregiver. Let's take a break. We'll continue our conversation with Dr. David Murray right after this.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. During the 2024 presidential campaign, I did several commentaries on the challenges the next president would face in 2025. Donald Trump is now the president, and his administration and Congress face some significant political challenges. Karl Rove recently listed them as the five trials of Trump 47. One of those challenges is the need to approve a funding bill for the balance of 2025 fiscal year, or face a shutdown on March 14th.

[00:09:27] The added challenges are getting both the House and Senate to approve budget resolutions, then going to conference committee, and finally taking up the difficult issues associated with budget reconciliation. In the background is a desire by the president and members of Congress to extend the Trump 2017 tax cuts. This requires some coordination since Senate Republicans prefer two reconciliation measures, while the House Republicans favor one reconciliation. Another challenge is the need for Congress to raise the debt ceiling.

[00:09:57] It hit $36 trillion limit the day Donald Trump was sworn into office. We're a month past that limit. So far, the Treasury Department has been using what are called extraordinary measures to keep the government working. Speaker Mike Johnson faces a challenge of trying to move legislation through the House with the narrowest of margins. Representative Matt Gaines already resigned. Representative Mike Waltz left to become National Security Advisor. And Representative Elise Stefanik is leaving to become U.N. Ambassador.

[00:10:26] These are just a few of the political challenges Trump, his administration, and Congress will face over the next few months. But there are more challenges on the horizon. Tomorrow, we'll talk about many of the economic challenges ahead. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view. For a free booklet on a biblical view of intelligent design, go to viewpoints.info slash intelligent design.

[00:10:54] Viewpoints.info slash intelligent design. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again as we talk about a Christian guide to mental illness. Dr. David Murray with us. And again, this is something we felt is an issue that needs to be addressed more and more. I'm holding up right now our booklet on a biblical view on emotional health.

[00:11:18] It's just one of a number of resources that have come from other conversations we've had in that regard. But I thought it would be helpful, David, for just a minute to make some distinctions. Because one of your chapters deals with what are the different kinds of mental illness. And you make, I think, a very helpful distinction between primarily mood disorders and primarily mind disorders. Can you explain that? Yes. Yes.

[00:11:47] So, I think there's so much confusion in this whole area. I think distinctions are extremely important. And the mood disorders are, I would say, the more common. They are more to do with the affect, the emotions, the mood, and include anxiety, depression. Obviously, probably the two most common. And then bipolar disorder.

[00:12:15] And within that, these categories can be divided up and distinguished as well. But the other main distinction, other than mood disorders, are primarily mind or thought disorders. These are, you would say, more disabling, more devastating, more perplexing. I think it's much, much harder for us to even understand these ones.

[00:12:41] And it includes things like schizophrenia and psychosis, which if anyone has any contact with someone, it just is a very, it feels a very hopeless situation. Mm-hmm. And again, I just recognize that some of those have to do with brain. Some of them have to do with various hormones and all sorts of other aspects that we have to address there as well. So, very important issues to address.

[00:13:09] But since we're talking about the mood disorders, one of your chapters also talks about, well, how is mental illness different from, you know, sadness or anxiety or confusion? Because some people might say, you know, sometimes I'm depressed, sometimes I'm a little bit anxious. But do I have a mental illness? And I think that's a helpful chapter as well to try to sort some of that out. Yes, indeed.

[00:13:35] And I think this is maybe one of the reasons why Christians get very suspicious in this whole area of mental health, because we have seen ordinary sadness, ordinary anxiety, ordinary confusion medicalized. You know, we do live in a fallen world. We can expect at times to be sad and to be anxious, confused.

[00:13:58] And I think the important thing is to know when to simply, prayerfully, depending on the Lord, work through these things. And when you need medical help, counseling help. And therefore, we have to ask, well, how do I know that this is not just Monday morning blues or a normal grieving process?

[00:14:25] And I think the first question to ask is, well, what's the degree of the suffering? How deep is it? How intense is it, in other words? Does it go quickly? Does it stay for days or even weeks? And how different is it? So have you experienced like this in the past? And in what way is this similar or different?

[00:14:52] And did you get better the last time, you know, within a week or two? And then ask, how constant is it? Does it come and go? Is it at certain predictable times of the day or the month? So these questions help us measure the degree of sadness and whether it's so abnormal that we need further action. And then I think you want to consider the circumstances of the sadness.

[00:15:17] If there has been a painful loss, a painful disappointment, a painful event, then obviously there's going to be some sadness after that.

[00:15:29] And if there hasn't been any of that, it's more likely to be a more physical issue, maybe a genetic trigger that has brought into your body certain processes that previous relations have had. So if there's been pain, there have been events that have been hard, then I think initially we want to rely on God's grace.

[00:15:59] We want to seek the help of the church. We want to be in fellowship with God's people. But when these things are not working and there hasn't been a painful event, then again, I think you've got to think, well, this is an abnormal sadness that needs extra help. Sure. I think lastly, you ask, sorry, just how long it's gone on. If it's gone on for, you know, secular sources say two weeks.

[00:16:26] I think that's too short because we all have two week periods of feeling down, but, you know, a month or more, and especially if it's months, then again, I think you have to consider this as more than ordinary sadness or anxiety. And that's why I wanted to get into that, because in some respects you can speak to this, David, because you've been a pastor.

[00:16:48] And a pastor sometimes in the midst of pastoral counseling needs to say, is this something that we can deal with or is this something I need to refer? A parent needs to think about that in terms of their child or someone else. And one of your chapters talk about the fact, you know, we wish we could scan or test for mental illness. That'd make it really easy and be all about. But you do have a section here on how does mental illness affect the sufferer?

[00:17:15] Part of the problem is, is that sometimes, and I have had personal experience with this with other individuals, you can explain to them the very abnormal things they are doing or saying or feeling, and they don't even know that they're actually in an issue of mental illness. They don't realize that they need help because you point out that mental illness can distort thoughts.

[00:17:40] They can have false extremes, false generalizations, false filter, false transformation. Can you speak to that? Yeah, I can speak to that. Not just a pastor, but as somebody who's gone through it myself in more recent years. And so it's not just a theory to me. It's an actual lived out experience.

[00:18:05] And what I found was that I became a very poor judge of my emotional mental state. Because as you said, Kirby, our thoughts are disordered as well as our emotions. We tend to have catastrophic thinking or great generalizations. We see things in black and white rather than, you know, recognizing there are gray areas.

[00:18:35] We tend to see the negatives and no positives. And sometimes that can be a cause of depression. More likely it's a symptom of depression. And therefore, you know, we really need someone outside of ourselves with some skill and knowledge to come alongside us and say, well, you know, this is normal. Or no, that is not you.

[00:19:01] Sometimes our loved ones, we're not so open to them. And therefore, I always encourage people to visit a counselor, visit a doctor, even especially if there's a Christian doctor. And just be really honest. I think this is the key element to not hide anything, to not try and make yourself look better than you are.

[00:19:22] But just tell exactly what you're thinking, how you react in certain circumstances, and trust the person with the experience to look at you and say, well, that's normal. You don't need to worry about it. Or, you know, this is a problem. It's not going to get better on its own. Let's think about various ways we can help you.

[00:19:46] And so I think humility on the part of the sufferer that is willing to submit to external judgment of how they are doing. And that's very hard for most of us. Very good point. And let's say we can't take a break. But this whole section talks about how, first of all, mental illness distorts thoughts and how dangerous that is and how mental illness can damage bodies.

[00:20:13] And you think of individuals that just go days without sleeping or aren't taking care of themselves or they have headaches or heart palpitations. It certainly, of course, affects relationships. And, of course, it has a very devastating impact many times on your spiritual health. So those are some real problems. But after we come back from the break, I thought we might focus on at least some of the things that we can do to turn that around.

[00:20:40] First of all, what are maybe some of the hurdles to recovery? What can pastors do in helping mentally ill people? What can the church do? What can families do? What's the role for health professionals, biblical counselors, and the rest? And then just to begin to talk about how we can provide even care for some of the caregivers and individuals as well.

[00:21:04] This is a book that really covers the whole range of issues related to mental illness. And it is published by Crossway Books. And David Murray is one of the authors. It is the Christian Guide to Mental Illness, Answers to 30 Common Questions. We'll take a break and continue our conversation right after this.

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[00:22:48] Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Continue your conversation today as we talk about A Christian's Guide to Mental Illness, Answers to 30 Common Questions. Book's been out for a while, so you might be able to find it in your local bookstore. But since it's been out for a little bit of time, you might have a little bit of difficulty finding it, which is why you can go to our website, pointofview.net. We have a link where you can get it in paperback or Kindle. And we've been talking, of course, with Dr. David Murray. And, David, I thought we've talked about some of the problems. Let's talk about recovery.

[00:23:43] But, again, you have a very helpful chapter on what are some of the common hurdles to recovery. I think we've already illuminated a few. Some people don't think they need recovery. Sometimes there's been a stigma attached to it. So even if I know I need help, I'm not going to seek it out. But there seems to be a couple of other real problems in terms of seeking and finding and eventually having some recovery. What are those?

[00:24:13] Yeah, I think it's important, Kirby, as you said, to emphasize the hope of recovery. And as Christians, obviously, we want to extend hope in all circumstances that we can. And we can in this illness of the mental kind, emotional kind. But there are also challenges to getting, say, early treatment. People have been suffering with this.

[00:24:43] The longer it goes on, then it's harder to reverse. It's like a cancer in a way. You know, we want to get it early. Well, we want to get this kind of problem early as well because the key to speedy recovery is speedy response. The body gets damaged. The longer that depression, anxiety goes on, it affects our bones.

[00:25:10] There's evidence that it affects almost every organ in the body. And therefore, we want to get dealing with it early. And then you've got the problem of follow through. So we have someone who's admitted the problem. They've reacted. They've responded in a good way. They're seeking treatment. But then it's hard to just persevere. You know, this kind of recovery takes a while. I always say to people, you'll be feeling better if you use all of the means God provides.

[00:25:40] You'll feel a bit better in a month. You'll feel much better in six months. But really, it's probably about two years on average before you're back to, you know, your ideal. And that's hard for people. We live in an instant healing day and we're not prepared maybe to do the work that's also needed together with maybe medical help.

[00:26:04] So willingness to persevere and then just the possibility of remission. It's quite high, 50%, actually. So it's like I was likening it to ice. So you've got thin ice that you've fallen through. That's your episode of mental illness. You manage, by God's grace, using the means you've provided to get back on solid ice. But it's thinner than it was before.

[00:26:32] And it's much easier to go back through again. Again, the blessing is that once you've been through it once, then you're able to identify the symptoms earlier. You're able to use the means earlier. And usually you get out of it quicker and you don't go down as deep either. But remission is a challenge as well. Let's see what we can also in just a minute talk about pastors and counselors.

[00:26:59] But before we do that, since you've been talking about how you are dealing with your illness, you do also talk about the fact that we have main causes to mental illness. First of all, what we are. We could have wrong biology. That could be everything from sinful issues and genes that are wrong to, of course, what we do, the wrong lives that we live or wrong that is done to us.

[00:27:26] And that's maybe helpful, too, to remind individuals, you know, caveat emptor, that is buyer beware. If you go to a particular doctor who sees every problem biologically and yet your problem is maybe spiritual or emotional, they're not going to be very helpful because they're going to be trying to prescribe drugs for a problem that needs counseling.

[00:27:52] Likewise, if you go to a counselor that sees everything psychologically and doesn't realize that you're maybe having problems with brain hormones or something else, it's really important to actually recognize the full range of opportunity that you need to look at. But with that as a background, let's, if we can, maybe talk about pastors because you've been a pastor and you have a whole section on what role pastors have in helping the mentally ill.

[00:28:19] It does seem to me, as you can speak for just a minute to pastors listening right now, what should be their role and when do they begin to know that they're beyond their expertise and need to refer? Kirby, you summed it up really well there. The need to have a balanced team approach. I always encourage people to involve their doctor, especially if it's a Christian doctor,

[00:28:46] to have a counselor, ideally a Christian counselor, and also a pastor who can bring pastoral insight. The balance of these things will be different for each person, but in almost all circumstances, some measure of each is required. And I really encourage pastors to get involved, not just delegate and walk away,

[00:29:11] but build a team of trusted doctors, counselors, psychiatrists, and always keep involved in the guiding and the caring. And I think the pastor obviously has a role in teaching the congregation about these issues. There's very little mention of it in most pulpits, although probably about one in five of every person in the pew suffers with this at some time in their life, and all of us have contact with people.

[00:29:41] So I think just to raise it, to teach away the stigma, it builds a culture of understanding and care and openness. So I think step one is teaching. And then praying. When was the last time you heard a pastor praying for those with mental illness? It's very important to do so. And again, it just normalizes the abnormal.

[00:30:06] Like we pray for somebody with cancer or with a heart disease. These people can talk freely because the pastor prays freely. So the pastor praying freely for this can really build that culture. And then there's the individual level, the shepherding, the counseling, bringing God's word, praying with the person, very important. Working with others.

[00:30:32] So I think a pastor can't be usually somebody who can have a weekly meeting with someone who is suffering with mental illness, but maybe an elder can or an older man or an older woman with Christian experience. So trying to build that team of people that you can mold together in a way that will care for that spiritual side of the person,

[00:30:55] it's just enormously important and can be a massive part of the healing. Again, you have chapters on, of course, the role for the pastor and the role for the church. But one other one I thought we might mention is the role for the family and friends. Because, first of all, family and friends sometimes can begin to understand the difference. They knew what that sufferer might have been like before this, although in some cases we're dealing with chronic issues.

[00:31:24] But also they can be part of that support team. So, again, friends and family probably very, very key in all of this healing, aren't they? I don't want to generalize too much, but in most circumstances, the family have, I think, the most important role because they are the people who are with the sufferer most of the time.

[00:31:48] You know, a pastor might be able to give an hour a week or so, the doctor once a month, the counselor once every two weeks. But the family are there, you know, 24-7 or, you know, something close to that. And therefore, educating the family, encouraging the family, and the family recognizing their role. Recognizing they can't do everything, but recognizing they can do a lot.

[00:32:12] Just loving them, just caring for them, giving them a safe place to talk without judgment, without criticizing. And sometimes just giving a shoulder to cry on. Don't underestimate how massive that can be.

[00:32:30] And I think, again, the family has a very important role in communication with the care team, bringing, you know, important information to the pastor with the sufferer's permission. And just making sure that the person is not presenting maybe an imbalanced view of themselves, either too much negative or positive. But I don't either want to put too much burden on a family. We need to be realistic. We're not professionals.

[00:33:01] We need professionals. We can do much. We can't do everything. And just, I think, a lot of common sense, really, in terms of dealing with this is a huge help. Yes. Well, let's take a break. And when we come back, we'll talk for just a few more minutes about this book, A Christian Guide to Mental Illness. 30 Common Questions and about 250 pages. You can perhaps find it in your local bookstore.

[00:33:26] But we've made it very easy for you to get a copy of it, either by paperback or Kindle. And, again, simply go to our website, pointofview.net. You'll find all the resources necessary. And we'll be back right after this.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back for a few more minutes as we continue our conversation today with Dr. David Murray. Again, A Christian's Guide to Mental Illness. And one of the chapters, which I know could be controversial to some, is what role does medication have? And I think we've all seen the extremes. If you've been out any length of time, I've seen young boys who are maybe a little too active, maybe even a little bit hyperactive. And the solution is Ritalin. No, it isn't.

[00:34:25] It's just to channel some of that energy in the right way. On the other extreme, I've seen individuals that are bipolar, that we resist any kind of medication. We put them on lithium or other kinds of psychotropic drugs, and all of a sudden they have a normal life. So there is extreme at both levels. But it does seem to me that a wise and discerning Christian or healthcare professional will recognize that sometimes medication is appropriate. Your thoughts?

[00:34:56] Yeah, I really appreciate your balance, Kirby. I think you could do this interview yourself because you've clearly done a lot of thinking about this and you've probably had experience of friends, family. So I really appreciate your interest, your knowledge that you're sharing, even in this conversation. I think we're all reluctant, surely, to jump to meds.

[00:35:22] In any situation, none of us surely want to put any external chemicals or substances in our bodies unless we really have to. So I think to say, first of all, is to try and not run to medication first. And that is, sadly, I think, especially in the non-Christian world, the first step most people take. No one's prepared to suffer at all.

[00:35:49] No one's prepared to be appropriately sad or even fearful for any time at all. And so a few days of this or a week of this and, you know, give me a pill. Just make me some, give me some to feel better. And it never works if that's our attitude. But then, as you said, we can't rush to the other extreme of ruling them out altogether. While we might not, we don't want to do it immediately, unless, of course, there's real life or death issues.

[00:36:18] Then we don't want to rule them out of pride or ignorance or just stubbornness and just be open. And again, we're not the best judges of this. I often see, I've often seen situations where somebody desperately needs medication. They're unprepared to take it. But the people suffering most are those around them.

[00:36:42] And sometimes taking a medication can be a great act of love towards our wife or our husband, our children, our parents, just so that they can have a more normal life, but as well as ourselves. So we don't want to run to it. We don't want to rule it out. And we don't want to depend on them alone. I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone get better on medication alone.

[00:37:10] But rather, I've seen it extremely helpful when used as part of a holistic package of care that addresses the body, but also the mind, also the soul, also relationships. And sometimes medication can help us take these steps. Sometimes it can be so low that the idea of diet or exercise, friendships, it's just impossible to us.

[00:37:39] So it gives us a little ladder out of a bottomless pit. And we begin to see the light and then would enable to start doing some of these more, you know, normal treatments of depression. And so medication, don't want to overuse it. Don't want to underuse it. Don't want to misuse it. And, again, I think a Christian medical professional can be a tremendous resource in assessing this.

[00:38:07] Let's, if we can, take maybe a few of the chapters near the end that, again, would be so helpful to anybody who is a pastor, Sunday school teacher, a life group leader, small group leader, elder, deacon, whatever, because you have chapters on how can we help a sufferer grow spiritually, how can we help sufferers serve in the church, maybe even some of the challenges in discipling an individual, even the role of scripture prayer and the sacraments in a sufferer's life.

[00:38:36] It does seem to me that the good news is that if you have mental illness and you're part of a church that is caring and compassion, there is just a lot that we can provide within the church. And I certainly want to come back to that and not say that every problem can be solved by prayer and scripture reading, but some can. And that is, again, one of the great advantages, because if you look at these faith-based organizations that are doing counseling,

[00:39:05] they seem to have a much higher success rate than the secular world. And I think when you talk about committing your life to Jesus Christ, having the Holy Spirit in your life, having accountability and discipling in the church, that's certainly some of the most important ingredients to success, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. And the gospel is at the foundation of this because the lack of the gospel, I believe, is one of the main causes of this,

[00:39:34] especially in the secular world. That's one of the reasons we're seeing such soaring rates of suicide and the worst consequence of mental illness. And not just amongst the young, but the most common group is actually men age 55 plus at the moment. And so, you know, to get the gospel to people, to give them hope, to realize that there is divine help available,

[00:40:03] to take away the shame through the love of God, to take away guilt through the atonement of Christ, to provide communion with God walking in his presence. All of these gospel benefits are just massively curative. And then you bring them into the church and there's hope to grow. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean your spiritual development stops.

[00:40:31] No, some things are going to be really hard, but there's other areas. We can grow in sympathy with other sufferers. We can grow in just praying for people, even if we're unable to get out there and serve others. It's great to turn a person from inside out, making them outward looking, serving others, serving the church and receiving discipleship and using scripture, using prayer, using the sacraments.

[00:40:59] All of these things are just, I think, invaluable and non-negotiable. Absolutely vital for full recovery or the best managing of a very hard situation. Well, David, I've always appreciated your work. I've appreciated, of course, the previous interview we've done. And I certainly thank you and Tom for writing this book, A Christian's Guide to Mental Illness. By the way, if you wanted to use this for a Bible study,

[00:41:27] there is a section in which they go through the material. Then there's a summary, the problem and insights and action, and then usually a story that either you or Tom shares at the end. So this could be a 30-week study or something of that nature that you might want to do as well. But again, the book, A Christian's Guide to Mental Illness, Answers to 30 Common Questions, published by our good friends at Crossway. And I appreciate you writing the book. And thank you for giving us an hour today to talk about it.

[00:41:56] Thank you, Kirby, and thank you for your ongoing interest in this area and in helping the church with it. Thank you. Let me just mention again that we are dealing with issues like mental illness for very good reasons. You know, really, since the fall, the world has been disordered. And so some of the problems have to do with biology. Some of them have to do with counseling. Some of them have to do with some.

[00:42:24] Maybe you were a victim of various kinds of actions. Whatever it might be, we certainly see the need to address this issue of mental health. We will continue to do that here on Point of View. But this book, I think, would be a great first step because it's written in a very accessible question-and-answer format and deals with 30 of the commonly asked questions about mental health from a Christian point of view. So let me recommend the book.

[00:42:51] Let me encourage you to find out more about it one more time. Published by Crossway Books and written by Dr. David Murray and Tom Carell. So, great resource, and you've been listening to Point of View. In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle, not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas.

[00:43:20] London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism, and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon. London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually. Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports. Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers. Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth.

[00:43:49] It is truth for all of life. Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today? Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up for the Viewpoints commentary at pointofview.net slash signup. Every weekday, in less than two minutes, you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time.

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