Point of View December 9, 2024 – Hour 1 : Every Moment Holy

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] Thank you for joining me, it is the Monday edition of Point of View, and as we said on Friday,

[00:00:25] you might remember that Penna Dexter and I were talking about the fact that in the past,

[00:00:30] oftentimes December was a little bit more of a quiet month.

[00:00:33] We used to jokingly say maybe we should actually put together some kind of feature on the Point of View Home and Garden Show

[00:00:41] because oftentimes Congress was in recess, the Supreme Court was not issuing any major decisions,

[00:00:48] and it was a time which we could reflect on a variety of different topics that aren't necessarily driven by the news cycle.

[00:00:56] And then I said, of course, it isn't quite the same.

[00:00:58] And of course, we even alluded to the fact that on Monday maybe we could spend some time talking about on the Middle East.

[00:01:04] And then, of course, Syria broke out and Syrian rebels have now captured the capital of Damascus

[00:01:11] and the longtime dictator President Bashar Assad is actually in exile in Russia.

[00:01:17] I will get to that, but that will probably be in the second hour where we'll do a deep dive into what is happening in Syria and what that means.

[00:01:26] If that's not enough, it turns out now that it looks like law enforcement have been able to arrest the individual

[00:01:33] who is responsible for the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson.

[00:01:39] They found this individual with a fake ID, with a gun that is like the one that was used, a variety of other, even a handwritten manifesto.

[00:01:49] I think we've actually captured him, so we'll talk more about that later.

[00:01:55] And for those of you that have been watching, of course, not only New York, but the trial of Daniel Penny is the Marine veteran

[00:02:03] who was trying to prevent Jordan Neely from killing people but was then arrested for a negligent homicide charge.

[00:02:13] He has been found not guilty, and we'll talk more about some of the reaction to that as well.

[00:02:18] So, as you can imagine, we're not necessarily in the same circumstance that we've been in the past,

[00:02:24] but we still had planned to spend some time today to talk about some things that would be most helpful to you during this season.

[00:02:33] We did a program last week on Advent.

[00:02:36] Today we're going to talk about liturgy.

[00:02:37] I think you will appreciate the conversation, but stay tuned because we will, sooner enough,

[00:02:42] get back to some of these issues in the news, as well as many other articles that I've posted here today.

[00:02:48] Not only about Syria, but also this time last week.

[00:02:52] You might remember we were talking with Pastor Jack Graham about Bible sales are increasing.

[00:02:57] We'll get into those facts and figures.

[00:02:59] Some things about Trump nominees and a variety of others.

[00:03:02] Might not even get all of it in today, but we will certainly do our best.

[00:03:06] So, let's first of all, can spend some time talking with Douglas Kane McKelvey,

[00:03:12] who is an individual who grew up in East Texas, moved to Nashville back in about 1991

[00:03:18] to participate in the early work of Charlie Peacock's Art House Foundation organization I've heard about,

[00:03:24] which really was dedicated at the time, and still is, to a kind of a shared exploration of faith and the arts.

[00:03:31] I have in front of me here one of the three volumes of Every Moment Holy.

[00:03:37] Next hour, we'll be talking about some things that aren't so holy,

[00:03:40] but this hour, we'll talk about Every Moment Holy, and it's a series that you need to know about.

[00:03:45] And so, first of all, Douglas, welcome to Point of View.

[00:03:49] Thank you, Kirby. I'm happy to be here.

[00:03:52] We're talking about this in the midst of all sorts of other activities,

[00:03:55] so maybe it's good to take a little bit of a break from some of the craziness that we will be talking about,

[00:04:01] certainly a little bit later.

[00:04:03] But I thought one of the things that was very helpful about your book is,

[00:04:07] early on, you talk about the idea of liturgical rhythms.

[00:04:13] And on this program, we've talked about rhythms in the past.

[00:04:16] The fact that there are 24-hour cycles, there are seven-week cycles, there are 365-day cycles.

[00:04:24] I have a Sunday school class where we do everything on rhythm.

[00:04:27] I can tell you when we're going out to lunch.

[00:04:30] I can tell you when we're going to be having meetings,

[00:04:32] because we've said that maybe it's time to come back to some of those, if you will, circadian rhythms,

[00:04:39] some of those, if you will, astronomical rhythms, because with light bulbs and 24-7 kinds of broadcasts,

[00:04:49] we forget about that.

[00:04:51] And one of the illustrations that you have in the book are different prayers that could be said at daybreak,

[00:04:58] at midday, and nightfall.

[00:04:59] Can you explain that for us?

[00:05:02] Sure.

[00:05:02] Sure.

[00:05:04] There's an American writer named Annie Dillard that many of your listeners are probably familiar with,

[00:05:11] but she said something years ago to the effect of the way we spend our moments is, of course, how we spend our lives.

[00:05:22] And I think that there are rhythms that serve either to shape us in ways that would conform our hearts more and more to the image of Christ,

[00:05:38] that would serve to reorient us as we move through our days and the various tasks and activities that we engage in and relationships.

[00:05:50] Those rhythms of what we choose to invest our moments and therefore our lives in do ultimately have the power to constructively shape us so that our hearts become more and more inclined toward God

[00:06:10] and the story that we can make choices to habitually engage in the rhythms of activities in our lives that will actually have a malforming,

[00:06:36] a misshaping effect on us over time and that would move us away from having a sensitivity to God's presence and his purposes in our lives in all circumstances.

[00:06:54] So I think some of those prayers that you've referenced for morning,

[00:07:01] for midday,

[00:07:02] for evening are ones that people can naturally incorporate into the existing rhythm of their days in a way that carves out these moments to recognize that God is indeed

[00:07:24] active and present and engaged in each of us.

[00:07:29] And that even in this given day,

[00:07:32] that even in this given day,

[00:07:32] in this given hour,

[00:07:33] in this given moment,

[00:07:35] that as we intentionally yield our hearts afresh to the workings of his spirit,

[00:07:43] that he does not waste anything.

[00:07:47] He does not waste any opportunity.

[00:07:48] He will use it for his glory and for our good.

[00:07:54] So we can take a break.

[00:07:55] And when we come back,

[00:07:56] I thought maybe we'll focus a little bit even on the forward by Andrew Peterson,

[00:08:00] which gets us into the value of some of those prayers.

[00:08:03] And I might just mention that if you'd like to know more about,

[00:08:06] of course,

[00:08:06] this series,

[00:08:07] which has been out for some time,

[00:08:09] every moment,

[00:08:10] holy,

[00:08:10] or you'd like to know more about Douglas McKelvey.

[00:08:13] We have information about him.

[00:08:15] And I might also mention that as an individual,

[00:08:17] that not only is a writer,

[00:08:19] but has also penned more than 350 lyrics that have been recorded by a variety of artists.

[00:08:24] He's located in Nashville,

[00:08:25] Tennessee.

[00:08:26] You can find out more about him,

[00:08:28] about these resources and much more.

[00:08:31] But let's take a break.

[00:08:31] And when we come back,

[00:08:32] talk a little bit more about how to even begin to think about these ideas of prayer

[00:08:38] and how to use those during this season or any season.

[00:08:41] We'll come back and talk about that right after these important messages.

[00:08:58] This is viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] As December,

[00:09:03] 2024 is winding down.

[00:09:04] Many Americans begin to think about their finances.

[00:09:07] First,

[00:09:07] they're considering what donations they might make before the end of the year.

[00:09:11] Second,

[00:09:11] they're looking to 2025 and thinking about developing a financial plan.

[00:09:16] Unfortunately,

[00:09:17] many of us don't get past just thinking about developing a plan.

[00:09:20] So if you're eager to put together a sound financial plan,

[00:09:23] I recommend forging financial freedom by Chad Hufford.

[00:09:27] He sets for seven wealth building lessons.

[00:09:29] He has learned.

[00:09:30] He argues that financial freedom is not a finish line.

[00:09:33] He reminds us that when retirement is your finish line,

[00:09:35] there is a tendency to put life on pause until you realize that achievement.

[00:09:40] He recommends that you get busy framing your future,

[00:09:43] which requires clarity and persistence.

[00:09:45] You should put your future together one piece at a time.

[00:09:48] You should also know when enough is enough by creating balance along your financial journey.

[00:09:54] Another of his recommendations is to farm your orchard.

[00:09:57] He explains that wealth is like an orchard.

[00:10:00] When a farmer plants an orchard, the trees are small and produce little fruit.

[00:10:04] Financial productivity is a long process.

[00:10:06] Unfortunately,

[00:10:07] some people are gambling when they should be farming.

[00:10:09] An important financial battle takes place in your mind.

[00:10:13] That is why he talks about winning the war in your mind.

[00:10:15] Quoting Hebrews 12,

[00:10:17] 1,

[00:10:17] he encourages us to lay aside encumbrances.

[00:10:20] Often addition comes from subtraction.

[00:10:23] Finally,

[00:10:23] he reminds us that persistence beats perfection.

[00:10:26] The pressure of perfect can cause us to try to tackle too much,

[00:10:30] which is unsustainable.

[00:10:31] We need to develop healthy habits and a healthy lifestyle.

[00:10:35] Your financial future is in your hands.

[00:10:37] Get a copy of Forging Financial Freedom and get to work.

[00:10:40] I'm Kirby Anderson,

[00:10:42] and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:46] For a free copy of Kirby's booklet,

[00:10:49] A Biblical View on Loneliness,

[00:10:51] go to viewpoints.info slash loneliness.

[00:10:53] That's viewpoints.info slash loneliness.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View.

[00:11:00] Your listener supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Back once again,

[00:11:04] talking about the book Every Moment Holy.

[00:11:06] By the way,

[00:11:06] it's been out for many years,

[00:11:08] but now there's a whole series of them.

[00:11:09] And I thought for just a minute,

[00:11:11] going back to the original book,

[00:11:13] Douglas,

[00:11:13] it might be good to maybe pull in some of the material

[00:11:17] and some of the comments by Andrew Peterson,

[00:11:19] because he talks about a friend giving him a book,

[00:11:22] and he loves books,

[00:11:22] of course,

[00:11:23] and all that.

[00:11:24] But it was a book that was from a Scottish minister

[00:11:27] on a diary of private prayer.

[00:11:29] He said growing up in a non-denominational church

[00:11:32] in the American South,

[00:11:33] a little bit suspicious of anything liturgical,

[00:11:35] but it really kind of gives us back to this whole idea of prayer.

[00:11:40] And what he says is that this has been very helpful in terms of his own prayer life,

[00:11:45] and in the particular season he might find himself.

[00:11:49] So how can maybe people use some of these books that have been out for many years

[00:11:55] in this whole series to begin to re-energize and focus some of their prayer life

[00:12:01] and their Christian life?

[00:12:04] Her hope from the beginning of the publishing of Volume 1,

[00:12:10] which happened in, I think, the fall of 2017,

[00:12:16] was not that a particular individual would end up using and incorporating every prayer in these books into their life.

[00:12:29] There are 100 prayers in Volume 1 on just a wide cross-section of moments, of experiences, activities, emotions,

[00:12:43] some sorts of menial things, some things that are celebratory and might only happen once a year,

[00:12:49] or that type of thing.

[00:12:51] But our hope was that any given person or married couple or family or small group at church

[00:13:01] would be able to find a number of the prayers in the book that would relate to things that they were already passionate about

[00:13:13] and already involved in in their lives or responsibilities that they already had,

[00:13:21] and that in that way incorporating these prayers into the rhythm of their days, their weeks, their months, and years,

[00:13:29] would become that very helpful shaping tool that we were talking about a few minutes ago,

[00:13:36] by virtue of the fact that it does become something that is this ongoing reminder.

[00:13:46] And for me, I really do like the word reorientation because I feel like in a given day,

[00:13:54] I need to be reminded multiple times that, oh, this actually isn't about me and the things that I'm so stressed and worried about.

[00:14:07] There is a God who loves me, who is involved, who is sovereign over these very things.

[00:14:18] And that, you know, I believe in God, but there are moments when I realize, oh, I'm kind of living in the midst of a day,

[00:14:30] as if I have to carry the weight of all of the burdens myself, as if the story really is about me rather than about God's redemptive work across history.

[00:14:45] So that was our hope from the beginning was that in these prayers we would be offering the church and individuals these tools that would help them to begin to practice that rhythm of moment by moment,

[00:15:07] intentionally refocusing their awareness on the bigger story, on the presence of God with them.

[00:15:15] As I've said, sometimes we end up being like functional atheists.

[00:15:19] We're not, but we sort of act that way.

[00:15:21] And I might just mention that we have whole sections on, of course, liturgies of labor and vocation and creation and recreation,

[00:15:28] blessing and celebration, which would be everything from a wedding to just other meaningful gatherings, petition and provision, sorrow and lament, as well as table blessings and much more.

[00:15:40] Of course, that's just volume one I'm looking at.

[00:15:42] Of course, there are multiple volumes.

[00:15:44] And it does seem to me that in some respects we have to recognize that that is something that we need to do for our Muslim friends.

[00:15:54] Well, that's the call to prayer.

[00:15:56] You know, five times a day we want you to pray because we don't want you to forget about God.

[00:16:01] And as significant as that might be in the Muslim world, in the Christian world,

[00:16:07] we should on our own be able to be called back and reoriented to some of the things that are taking place.

[00:16:14] But let's come back when you were talking about rhythm to the one on creation,

[00:16:18] because one of the things I've said, Douglas, is that I am always a big fan of Christian camping

[00:16:26] because there is something unique that takes place when we take God's word into God's world.

[00:16:34] And I see so many life changing decisions that have been made when people are out back in creation

[00:16:42] and they see the wonders of creation and they put that together with God's world, with God's word.

[00:16:49] And you've got a whole section on that.

[00:16:51] And so whether it's a sunset or stargathing or the first snow or the planting of flowers,

[00:16:56] those are very significant events, which in this hustle and bustle of the 21st century, we sort of have lost.

[00:17:04] And in some respects, you're calling us back to that.

[00:17:08] Well, and I'm grateful that you mentioned the idea of camping, because I think in that first volume,

[00:17:18] a liturgy for those who sleep in tents was one of my personal favorites.

[00:17:27] With each of the prayers that I wrote for these, for me, part of what I was trying to do was to say,

[00:17:34] okay, I believe, you know, I subscribe to the belief that there is a God and that Jesus is his son

[00:17:44] and that he is moving all of history toward this renewal, this redemption of all things,

[00:17:53] toward this new creation where, you know, our tears will be wiped away,

[00:18:00] where our sorrows will be met and turned to eternal joy.

[00:18:09] And so if I believe that, then can I look at specific moments of life?

[00:18:16] Like, you know, you're changing the third diaper of the morning for your infant or your grandchild, in my case.

[00:18:25] Or, you know, you're lighting the hearth fire for the first time this season.

[00:18:32] Or you are camping.

[00:18:35] You're going out into the wilderness somewhere to sleep in a tent.

[00:18:41] Can we unpack those moments in such a way that we actually can draw clear lines based on what Scripture reveals,

[00:18:52] what God reveals in Scripture?

[00:18:55] Can we place that moment of changing a diaper on the timeline of that movement across history toward the redemption of all things?

[00:19:06] So, you know, for me as a writer, that was one of the challenges in front of me as I tried to craft these liturgical prayers for these various moments,

[00:19:20] was to say, can I connect those dots between this abstract belief that I have

[00:19:30] and how that might actually be worked out in the moment as the Spirit of God engages with us in our everyday activities?

[00:19:42] Let's see if we can take a break, but maybe when we come back, I'd like to get into that in more detail

[00:19:47] because, of course, we're talking about creation, but the next one is on blessing and celebration.

[00:19:52] Of course, you would imagine that there's a prayer there for a wedding or a purposeful gathering,

[00:19:57] but a little bit later there's one on the morning of a yard sale or the setting up of a Christmas tree,

[00:20:04] and what that sort of reminded me of the Flemish painters.

[00:20:08] You might remember some of those.

[00:20:10] I guess they were Flemish Baroque that would actually paint just normal scenes,

[00:20:15] people doing work, pouring water in a tavern, taking care of the day-to-day activities,

[00:20:24] which oftentimes we just see as routine, mundane, maybe even a little bit stifling in terms of not allowing creativity.

[00:20:35] And yet many of your prayers are, another one, on the ritual of morning coffee or of the loss of electricity.

[00:20:41] Just, oh, I want to come back.

[00:20:43] I want to talk about that because in some respects, maybe we can see the significance,

[00:20:47] even in the repetitive, even in what might be considered to be mundane and quite boring,

[00:20:54] and maybe even a little bit oppressive of the working of God in our lives as well.

[00:20:59] So it's all part of a conversation that is part of a series of volumes, Every Moment Holy.

[00:21:06] And we're talking with the author, Douglas Cain McKelvey.

[00:21:11] And if you'd like to know more about him as we go to a break, you can see that we have a link to his website and also to these books.

[00:21:19] And if you'd like to know a little bit more, go to the website, pointofview.net.

[00:21:23] We'll take a break.

[00:21:24] Come back with more right after this.

[00:21:31] Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age.

[00:21:36] Well, today there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:21:40] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information.

[00:21:52] Let me give you a suggestion to help with that.

[00:21:55] Visit pointofview.net.

[00:21:57] Look at the tabs across the top.

[00:22:00] Find the one named Viewpoints.

[00:22:02] Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news to identify those issues that you really need to know about.

[00:22:10] They boil things down in a brief summary and then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved.

[00:22:17] Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints, you'll see exactly what I mean.

[00:22:24] You'll see the issues that we are covering right now.

[00:22:27] And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will, you can slide on over, enter your email, and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day.

[00:22:37] That's it.

[00:22:38] Take a minute now.

[00:22:39] Be informed.

[00:22:41] Pointofview.net.

[00:22:42] Click on Viewpoints.

[00:22:48] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] Continue your conversation today with Douglas Cain McKelvey.

[00:23:16] And we're talking about his series of books, Every Moment Holy.

[00:23:20] And I guess I stimulated something a minute ago.

[00:23:23] I jokingly say sometimes we should keep the microphones on during the break because my producer, Steve Miller, came in.

[00:23:29] And we got talking about Flemish painters and imagination.

[00:23:32] Might hold up his booklet here.

[00:23:34] We, of course, send out a booklet each month to those of you who donate to the ministry.

[00:23:39] A lot of them are on issues.

[00:23:40] But this one on imagination.

[00:23:42] Actually, to be honest, this is sort of like the CliffsNotes version of the longer essay that you can find on a Christian view of imagination on our website, pointofview.net.

[00:23:52] But I thought, Douglas, I'd come back to you because when we talk about imagination or we talk about the Flemish painters, the illustration I used or anything else was there is meaningful in the everyday activity.

[00:24:07] And that really kind of takes us back to this idea of every moment holy, doesn't it?

[00:24:13] It does.

[00:24:14] Yes.

[00:24:16] I have become, well, let me put it this way.

[00:24:22] The prayers that early Celtic Christians would write and pray have become very meaningful to me because they had this tradition of crafting prayers for moments like covering the coals on the hearth fire at night.

[00:24:43] Or a prayer for milking the cows in the morning.

[00:24:47] And, you know, there are points of theology that I would certainly differ with on some of the things that they expressed in those times.

[00:24:57] But there are some of those prayers that are just such beautiful reminders of the fact that God has been moving in at work for thousands of years for all of time and history and, you know, across all of creation and space.

[00:25:24] And that those early believers in Ireland had discovered the value and the richness that could be brought into their lives by applying their imagination in such a way as to stimulate the remembrance of God's activity in their lives constantly.

[00:25:56] And, you know, for me as a, I mean, writers like to be original.

[00:25:59] But in this case, when I discovered that, oh, this type of prayer that I was writing for these volumes of Every Moment Holy is not new.

[00:26:13] It existed more than a thousand years ago.

[00:26:18] That all I'm doing is taking a practice that at one time the church found valuable, and I'm holding it up again and saying,

[00:26:27] is there value in our contemporary Western culture today?

[00:26:34] Is there value in this same practice that our brothers and sisters in a different part of the world long ago found valuable?

[00:26:45] Sure.

[00:26:46] And it seems to me that in some respects we've needed it even more.

[00:26:49] Of course, you have prayers for those flooded by too much information.

[00:26:52] But back to the point we made it a minute ago, of course, you love the one about the prayers for an individual who sleeps in tents.

[00:27:02] Or Steve was just talking about the one, a prayer for keeping of the bees.

[00:27:06] And that's all part of Volume 1, which is the new liturgies for daily life.

[00:27:11] But Volume 2 is on death, grief, and hope.

[00:27:14] But even in Volume 1, you have a whole section here for sorrow and lament.

[00:27:19] Now, we've done some programs on this idea of lament, and it does seem to me that that's another aspect.

[00:27:26] Of course, you then wrote another 100 prayers in Volume 2.

[00:27:30] And for people that want to know what is the other third volume, well, that's the one on the work of the people.

[00:27:36] But speak to that, if you might, for just a minute, because the time we oftentimes do pray is the midst of pain, grief, loss, and lament.

[00:27:47] And yet, even there, I think we can maybe fill some of our wineskins with new wine.

[00:27:55] Can you help us with that?

[00:27:58] As I was nearing the completion of Volume 1, I had a list of topics that I hoped to get to.

[00:28:06] But pretty quickly, I realized that there just wasn't going to be time and that I didn't have even the emotional bandwidth for some of the weighty topics that I had hoped would be in Volume 1.

[00:28:22] But the prayer that I most felt was missing from Volume 1 that I wished was in there after it was published was a prayer for those who are in the immediate experience of grief, of having just recently lost someone that they love.

[00:28:43] And so I set about to write that prayer thinking, well, this is one that's really important, it's needed.

[00:28:51] And I didn't know at that point if there would ever be a Volume 2 of Every Moment Holy, but I thought we can at least put this on the website, the Every Moment Holy website, and offer it as a free download for people who might be served by that.

[00:29:07] So I started working on that, and it just expanded and expanded.

[00:29:14] There were so many facets that seemed important to address when considering a prayer that would rightly articulate what might be on the heart of someone experiencing that kind of grief.

[00:29:30] So it split, that one prayer split into a half dozen prayers, and then several of those split into two or three prayers, because there were just so many facets that needed to be addressed.

[00:29:43] And pretty soon I called the publisher and said, I think we have to do a whole book just on prayers related to grief and the hope that we have even in the midst of that.

[00:29:58] And prayers for those who are in the midst of that, and prayers for those who are in a position where they've learned that maybe they have six months to live.

[00:30:06] And, you know, what does it mean for a follower of Jesus to navigate that process, that journey of following Christ even into and through the valley of the shadow?

[00:30:17] And are there prayers that could be crafted that could comfort those people?

[00:30:24] And so one of the main things that I gained personally from the two years I spent writing those prayers of death, grief, and hope for volume two was this conviction of how essential it is in our following of Jesus that we learn to do what he did,

[00:30:50] which is to be, you know, a person of sorrow is acquainted with grief, to mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice, to be able to hold the joy that we have in our hope in Christ at the same time that we fully experience the sorrow and the grief of what it means to live in a broken world.

[00:31:17] So that topic began to work itself into and through so many of the prayers that I was writing because I found that, yes, in the midst of sorrow, our hope does hold.

[00:31:35] And Christ is real.

[00:31:39] His promises are true.

[00:31:41] The eternal hope that he gives us is great.

[00:31:47] And, you know, it leavens the whole lump of dough, as it were.

[00:31:53] But we also, in Christ, have the model of the one who wept at the tomb of Lazarus, even knowing that he would resurrect him.

[00:32:03] But I think he, you know, he understood what it was to be human and to face that kind of loss and the grief that comes with it.

[00:32:14] And so I think we find in Christ that perfect marriage of one who can hold fully the weight of sorrow and the great joy of the hope that is before us.

[00:32:30] And one does not negate the other.

[00:32:34] It doesn't deny the other that the hope actually works backwards, as C.F. Lewis said, and, you know, becomes that one day in hindsight, when we look back, we will see that that joy was already beginning to permeate the loss and the sorrow.

[00:32:54] So, yeah, I appreciate you.

[00:32:57] I appreciate you highlighting that topic, because I think it did become one of the most important and essential themes of Volume 2, that marriage of sorrow and joy.

[00:33:12] I think, again, I might just also commend you on the fact that you talk about the anniversary of loss and inconsolable homesickness and facing the slow loss of memory, you know, the long goodbye and so many different aspects of loss and grief that are all part of that Volume 1, which then are developed even more so in Volume 2.

[00:33:35] Let's take a break.

[00:33:36] When we come back, maybe talk just a few more minutes about for practicing the presence of God, some of those liturgies of the moment.

[00:33:43] We'll be right back.

[00:33:56] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] Back for a few more minutes, talking about Every Moment Holy.

[00:34:04] You can go to the website, everymomentholy.com, and there are all sorts of downloads.

[00:34:10] There's prints.

[00:34:11] There are various formats, including the most recent one in a pocket edition.

[00:34:16] If you'd like to get something for a gift for Christmas or for yourself, those are all available at the website, pointofview.net, or you can go directly to everymomentholy.com.

[00:34:27] But I thought for just a few more minutes, Douglas, we might talk about a whole section on practicing the presence of God.

[00:34:34] Now, that takes us back to Brother Lawrence, but you've got sections on upon seeing a beautiful person, tasting pleasurable food, maybe just thinking about another person,

[00:34:45] maybe citing a flower in bloom, all sorts of other ideas.

[00:34:50] But it does seem to me that that gets us back to this idea of being mindful of the fact that we live in a world created by God,

[00:34:59] and sometimes we tend to go about our daily life and forget about God.

[00:35:03] And so this is an attempt to begin to practice the presence of God.

[00:35:08] That was definitely the hope in which those were written.

[00:35:13] And the idea with those shorter momentary prayers was to have a section in each one of the three volumes so far that would include prayers that are short enough that they could be easily memorized,

[00:35:29] just recognizing that a person is not always going to have a book with them as they're going about their day.

[00:35:37] But that some of these key prayers would be ones that they could carry with them in their memory and could recite.

[00:35:47] And one of those that I think I'm most fond of is the one for waiting in line.

[00:35:56] You know, when you're waiting in line at the DMV and are tempted to become frustrated and maybe express that in your countenance,

[00:36:07] if not in your actual words or actions, you know, the idea was that that can actually be a moment to reorient your heart and mind toward God.

[00:36:20] Right.

[00:36:22] Yeah.

[00:36:22] So.

[00:36:24] Well, another one that you had in there was the sound of sirens.

[00:36:27] How many of us over the years as we've come upon an accident, maybe we've had traffic and all of a sudden we see, oh, it was a horrible accident.

[00:36:35] Or we're just sitting alone and we hear the sirens and the wail of sirens, as you say, as an anthem of our brokenness,

[00:36:42] reminding us that fear and tragedy, pain and crime yet plague a creation groaning for its redemption.

[00:36:48] Just great turns of phrases.

[00:36:50] But again, just an idea that sometimes those momentary opportunities to pray come upon us with some regularity, don't they?

[00:37:01] They do.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:03] I don't know what else to say about that.

[00:37:06] Well, that's.

[00:37:07] I certainly agree with you.

[00:37:09] Yes.

[00:37:09] And again, I've been with people and I'm sure you've done it as well, where we come upon an accident.

[00:37:13] We just think about prayer and I never even thought that someone would actually put together a prayer in that regard.

[00:37:19] I love your one about waiting in line and all the rest.

[00:37:22] But in the few minutes we have left, I thought for just a minute we might talk about how to actually use these resources because you have a number of volumes.

[00:37:32] And again, we'll just real quickly mention that the one we have been talking about primarily is volume one on daily life.

[00:37:39] But then volume two, I think would be so helpful to anybody right now during this season who is experiencing loss, feeling loneliness, grief on death, grief and hope.

[00:37:50] And then the most recent one on the work of the people, which again, many of these are available in hardcover.

[00:37:58] They're available in softcover.

[00:38:00] They're available in a number of different ways to begin to help people think through what they might do in terms of having a daily prayer life.

[00:38:09] But talk, if you might, for just a minute on how we can use these resources.

[00:38:13] Some of those are ones that I would set on my desk or on a coffee table.

[00:38:17] Others are small enough that they could be in my pocket.

[00:38:19] And so you've probably, over these many years now, at least seven years of experience,

[00:38:25] I've had stories about how people have used them in their lives and maybe give us some direction on how we can use it in our lives.

[00:38:33] Sure.

[00:38:35] Yeah, there are many stories that people have either told to me or to the publisher about the ways that certain prayers have become meaningful in their lives.

[00:38:49] I think the prayer for the ritual of morning coffee that you mentioned is perhaps the most utilized prayer.

[00:39:00] And it's a fairly short one.

[00:39:03] I think there are people who have memorized that one.

[00:39:08] But it's also one that we knew we should make available as an art print.

[00:39:13] Ned Bustard is just the brilliant line-of-cut printmaker artist who has illustrated these books.

[00:39:24] And he has a wonderful illustration for that.

[00:39:27] So we made an art print available with the prayer and that illustration on it.

[00:39:34] And a lot of people have purchased that to hang on the wall over the little table in the kitchen nook where they have their coffee every morning.

[00:39:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:49] But I think that there really has not been one kind of consistent way that people use the books that have emerged.

[00:40:00] It really has been a process that's – or people have their own unique relationship to the book and to certain prayers.

[00:40:11] Of course.

[00:40:11] That they find are the ones that are most helpful and meaningful to them.

[00:40:18] We've just come through the Thanksgiving season and headed toward Christmas.

[00:40:23] And I've seen each year around that time, I see people beginning to post videos of they and their family or friends who are gathered reciting a liturgy for feasting with friends.

[00:40:40] Right.

[00:40:41] That that one has become a meaningful part of the year and particularly holiday celebrations for people just for the way that it sets the tone for the gathering and for the conversations that follow

[00:40:57] And that reminds everyone of the deeper meanings of what they're celebrating and why.

[00:41:05] I spoke to a woman a few weeks ago in England where I've been for a couple of months who said,

[00:41:18] I have taken to pray the liturgy for nightfall every evening.

[00:41:26] And she said it doesn't really work so well with my schedule and kids and so forth to try to fit in the liturgy for daybreak and the liturgy for midday.

[00:41:37] But she said the one for nightfall has has become a daily part of the rhythm of her life.

[00:41:46] So, yeah, I think it's I think it's more than being able to say, well, here here are the best ways to use it.

[00:41:55] I would say, you know, look, look, look through the table of content at the topic and there will probably be some of those topics that will just jump out at you as, oh, that that that that would make sense in the context of my life.

[00:42:11] Yeah.

[00:42:12] Use what works best for you.

[00:42:14] Well, Douglas, I appreciate you writing those books.

[00:42:16] I thank you for giving us an hour today.

[00:42:18] And again, let me wish you a Merry Christmas.

[00:42:22] Thank you, Kirby.

[00:42:23] Merry Christmas to you as well.

[00:42:25] Let's if we can take a break.

[00:42:26] And when we come back, we have lots of topics to get in.

[00:42:31] It is a very busy news cycle.

[00:42:34] And sometimes, as we said, December is a time where we can pause and reflect.

[00:42:39] Not exactly this time.

[00:42:40] So we'll get into some of the news items.

[00:42:42] And if we don't cover them all, well, we've got all week to begin to focus on some of that as well.

[00:42:47] All this information available to you at the website pointofview.net.

[00:42:52] You might notice we've posted a new video for you to watch.

[00:42:55] And, of course, I've got a new, of course, Viewpoints commentary.

[00:42:58] So all of that available at the website pointofview.net.

[00:43:01] Let's take a break.

[00:43:02] Let's get back into the news cycle right after this.

[00:43:11] It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority.

[00:43:16] They say men can be women and women men.

[00:43:20] People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics.

[00:43:25] Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:43:30] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing.

[00:43:33] You feel like giving up.

[00:43:35] But we can't.

[00:43:36] We shouldn't.

[00:43:37] We must not.

[00:43:38] As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:43:42] Never give in.

[00:43:44] Never give in.

[00:43:45] Never, never, never.

[00:43:47] Never yield to force.

[00:43:49] Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

[00:43:53] And that's what we say to you today.

[00:43:55] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos.

[00:44:03] We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:44:10] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151.

[00:44:19] Pointofview.net and 800-347-5151.

[00:44:28] Point of View will continue after this.