Point of View December 4, 2024 – Hour 1 : Church Initiative

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. Thank you for joining me. It is the Wednesday edition of Point of View and we're going to be covering a lot of different topics over the next two hours so I hope you'll stay tuned. Later this hour we'll be talking about the Church Initiative and that will get us into conversations related to what's happening in the Church, divorce care and a variety of others. We'll be talking with our good friend next hour Chris Reese. Christopher Reese has written quite a number of things.

[00:00:43] Chris Reese is the general editor of the World View Bulletin. We have a piece on a better story than love is love. We have a new caravan heading to the north from Mexico. We have some recommendations on what should be the first items of the agenda for Donald Trump as he actually takes the oath of office and a number of Republicans actually begin working there in the United States Congress. We'll talk a little bit more about what that might mean to have a government efficiency.

[00:01:43] As a matter of fact, we just barely meet the goal.

[00:01:46] I think we're all of $70 over that goal, which I think leads to one of the points I like to make,

[00:01:53] and that is we need everybody to participate.

[00:01:56] If Jana had not suggested that she would give $250 or some of you decided to not follow her lead,

[00:02:04] we wouldn't have made the goal.

[00:02:05] And you can begin to see that it, as we oftentimes said, takes everyone to actually achieve that goal.

[00:02:13] So, again, I want to say thank you for those of you that have given.

[00:02:17] If you go to the website, you know we've taken down the Giving Tuesday,

[00:02:21] but you can still click on that button that says Donate if you would want to maybe even put us over the top with a little bit of extra.

[00:02:28] That would be outstanding.

[00:02:29] We would appreciate that.

[00:02:30] And most importantly, you'll notice now the banner is Pray for America because we are actually sending one out.

[00:02:37] You may have even received it, but you will be getting it shortly,

[00:02:39] in which maybe just pray for some of the transition we're talking about and a number of other things that need to take place.

[00:02:45] So all sorts of factors have come together.

[00:02:48] We're very encouraged and, again, very appreciative of those of you that have supported this ministry.

[00:02:55] And as I've said before, as we come to year end, consider what you might do to support, for example, the radio station that carries this program.

[00:03:02] If indeed they are a non-commercial station and dependent upon your financial support.

[00:03:07] If it's a commercial station, maybe actually support one of the people that advertise on that radio station.

[00:03:13] And most importantly, I hope that you will consider giving to your church.

[00:03:16] Giving has been down some parts of the country.

[00:03:19] I don't know where you are located at the moment and whether that is happening in your community.

[00:03:24] But there have been a number of people, I believe, have been a little bit hesitant because of the uncertainty.

[00:03:30] We've had the uncertainty of the economy.

[00:03:33] We've had the uncertainty of the election.

[00:03:35] Some of that uncertainty has gone away, but some of it still remains.

[00:03:39] And so people tend not to invest in the stock market when there's uncertainty.

[00:03:44] They tend not to give to churches, Christian organizations, nonprofits when there's uncertainty.

[00:03:50] And I think this would be a good opportunity as we are now to the first week in December.

[00:03:56] And thinking about the fact that really just a few weeks from now we'll be saying goodbye to 2024.

[00:04:02] Hard to believe, but nevertheless that is the case.

[00:04:05] Okay, let's get into some of the issues in the news.

[00:04:07] My first article talks about these migrant caravans.

[00:04:10] I've only mentioned it in passing, and this is an article that Ryan Mills has put together in about two pages,

[00:04:17] which if you wanted to get a little bit more of the detail, maybe you want to talk to a member of Congress,

[00:04:23] maybe you want to express your concern to the president or an individual that is somehow involved in the issue of border security or immigration.

[00:04:33] That is the case.

[00:04:34] Because we have a caravan with about 1,500 migrants which have left southern Mexico.

[00:04:41] I'm going to come back to that in just a minute.

[00:04:43] And they're en route to the United States in hopes of being able to get across the border and into the country before President-elect Donald Trump takes office next month.

[00:04:52] But interestingly enough, the caravan start comes as really you've had some leaders in Mexico.

[00:04:59] I'll talk about the president here in just a minute.

[00:05:02] And others that have tried to engage in some sort of crackdown on those people traveling to the U.S.

[00:05:10] And so there are two other caravans that started heading north from southern Mexico last month.

[00:05:17] But they, in some cases, have been broken up by the Mexican authorities.

[00:05:21] Now, some of this has to do with the fact that there has been an agreement between the current president of Mexico and, by the way, the current president of the United States,

[00:05:32] which, by the way, is different than something I'm going to talk about in just a minute.

[00:05:37] In this latest caravan, mostly migrants from Venezuela, from Cuba, from Haiti, Colombia, Guatemala, Honduras,

[00:05:45] and many of them have been traveling at night to avoid the daytime heat, but I think also to avoid some of the Mexican authorities as well.

[00:05:54] And they are even concerned, I love this, that this CBP-1 cell phone app that has been available by President Biden,

[00:06:06] which launched earlier this year, this allowed, so far, about 1,400 immigrants per day to schedule their asylum claim interviews using their smartphones.

[00:06:19] And many of them are actually concerned, I think rightly so, that when Donald Trump takes office, that will no longer exist.

[00:06:28] When Tom Holman is in charge of border security, that will no longer exist.

[00:06:33] And so, in some respects, what you are starting to see is the Mexican government has been trying to help, in a limited way,

[00:06:41] to try to curb some of the flow of migrants to the U.S. border by picking up some of the border crossers

[00:06:48] and also keeping a good number of them down there in southern Mexican states, which is closer to the border of Guatemala.

[00:06:55] And so, that's why they're starting to leave, because some of them have been stuck there for some time.

[00:07:01] All of this, of course, takes place because, as you well know, Donald Trump announced plans to impose a 25% tariff on Mexican goods and on Canadian goods.

[00:07:13] We talked about Canada yesterday, Justin Trudeau.

[00:07:16] Let's talk about Mexico today.

[00:07:19] The president there, Claudia Scheinbaum, is a leftist.

[00:07:23] I think some people would say a communist, but we'll just say a leftist, to keep it simple there.

[00:07:29] And, of course, she's going to have a rightist, to keep it simple there.

[00:07:31] She's going to launch a tariff against our goods, we'll launch a tariff against your goods, which, first of all, probably is going to have less damage.

[00:07:40] I know there are products, no doubt, in the United States that are sold in Mexico, but a lot of the direction goes the other way.

[00:07:46] And, also, she, along with, of course, we mentioned yesterday, Justin Trudeau, Claudia Scheinbaum, has had a productive, at least Trump calls it a productive conversation with him.

[00:07:59] And so, we'll see where that goes.

[00:08:01] But, if you wanted to know a little bit more about what about these latest migrant caravans, this first article we've posted for you on the website by Ryan Mills, I think, gives you kind of a good overview of what is happening, what's going on at the border, what is happening in Mexico, and possibly the impact of some of these threatened tariffs might be having on whether or not we could stem the flow of people coming here illegally.

[00:08:30] Let's take a break, though.

[00:08:31] When we come back, we'll get into some other issues.

[00:08:33] We'll talk about the economy, which really was kind of the number one issue in the campaign.

[00:08:38] And Lawrence Kudlow has some important comments about that.

[00:08:42] We'll talk about that right after these important messages.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:04] Gerard Butler wrote in the Wall Street Journal that he hopes that four more years of Trump may make America normal again.

[00:09:10] He begins with a Hans Christian Andersen story of the emperor's new clothes.

[00:09:14] A small boy calls out the truth in this charade.

[00:09:17] Gerard Butler points to five items of invisible attire that we've had to wear for too long.

[00:09:22] First is the idea that people who have stolen into this country illegally should be showered with all the rights and benefits of citizens.

[00:09:30] We've been told that we cannot deny them those rights and must give them sanctuary in our already strained cities.

[00:09:35] Second is the idea that we cannot take advantage of our vast reservoirs of natural energy resources.

[00:09:42] Instead, we must restrain ourselves from using the energy reserves beneath our feet.

[00:09:47] Third is the idea that after a century and a half of racial progress, we are suddenly obliged to believe that America is as oppressive as it was in 1619.

[00:09:56] And we must believe that the best way to right the past wrong of treating people based on the color of their skin is to treat people based on the color of their skin.

[00:10:06] Fourth is the idea that children should, without parental consultation or consent, be free to choose their gender.

[00:10:12] And they should be assisted by the state in committing acts of self-mutilation.

[00:10:17] Fifth is the idea that democracy and freedom are best protected by denying people the right to express certain views that the authorities deem misinformation by weaponizing the law against political opponents.

[00:10:29] If we can reverse some of these harmful and erroneous ideas, it is indeed possible that America might become normal again.

[00:10:37] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on a biblical view of anti-Semitism, go to viewpoints.info slash antisemitism.

[00:10:53] Viewpoints.info slash antisemitism.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Back once again, let me just mention, as Bob and Mayer, Steve Grissom will be with us.

[00:11:07] He's the founder of the Church Initiative and is an individual that certainly has developed a ministry and strategy to help local churches.

[00:11:16] One aspect of what we'll talk about there has to do with some of the divorce care that they've put together.

[00:11:21] Of course, they have divorce care.

[00:11:22] They have grief share.

[00:11:23] They have single parenting, all sorts of various outreaches.

[00:11:26] We're going to just talk about what would be available to your church, especially as we head into 2025 and make some plans.

[00:11:32] I think you will really appreciate the conversation we're going to have with him.

[00:11:37] Open up the phones because maybe some of you would have a comment or a question about maybe what your church is doing or what your church could do in the future.

[00:11:44] Next hour, Christopher Reese will be with us.

[00:11:46] He is, of course, the editor of the Worldview Bulletin, an organization and an outreach that I highly recommend.

[00:11:53] And I have a subscription to it and would encourage you to get one as well.

[00:11:57] A little bit later, we're going to talk about Cal Thomas Peace Institutions versus We the People.

[00:12:02] And a very interesting commentary from an individual that calls himself a Democrat who is obviously a never-Trumper, dislikes the president, dislikes the former president and all the rest,

[00:12:15] but has been pleading with his fellow liberals to actually be a little more open-minded towards some of the students that you might have on campus who voted for Donald Trump.

[00:12:27] And so it's always good to hear somebody who's still a liberal on a college campus, still believing in free speech.

[00:12:34] It's harder and harder to find, and I hate to say he may have been part of the majority back when I used to speak on college campuses.

[00:12:42] He's a pretty dwindling minority now on college campuses, but I thought you'd enjoy hearing from his comments as well.

[00:12:49] But let's get to the economy.

[00:12:51] That was the number one issue, and this is an article that comes actually from the New York Sun, and it is written by Lawrence Kudlow.

[00:12:59] Lawrence Kudlow is an individual that actually probably the first time I heard him was on some of the talk shows.

[00:13:05] He had served as an economist under Ronald Reagan under the Office of Management and Budget, an OMB economist.

[00:13:13] More recently, under the Trump administration for a short time, served on the National Economic Council.

[00:13:19] Mostly he's a pundit, but a few times, as you can see, he served in an administration usually in a rather limited role.

[00:13:25] But nevertheless, he is arguing that we certainly cannot wait for the Trump tax cuts.

[00:13:32] And I'll explain what he's saying.

[00:13:34] He says during the years of President Trump's first term, real average weekly wages, also known as take-home pay, rose more than 9%.

[00:13:42] During the Biden years, take-home pay plunged 3.6% for his entire term up until now.

[00:13:50] He says one more statistic.

[00:13:52] Median household incomes during the Trump years rose $7,700 pre-COVID when adjusted for inflation.

[00:14:01] During Biden's term, median incomes rose only $1,000.

[00:14:05] So you can see that he is saying that there was something going on during the Trump administration

[00:14:11] that has not been taking place under the Biden administration.

[00:14:15] And he then reminds us that if you go back and look at almost every poll, the economy ranked first.

[00:14:22] He says when working folks are losing money, they can't afford gasoline, groceries, electricity, new cars, new homes, and things of that nature.

[00:14:31] And so he says it's about the economy.

[00:14:34] So here's my point.

[00:14:35] Pretty simple.

[00:14:36] The sooner President-elect Donald Trump can restore the blue-collar boom, the stronger his political position will be in Congress and all around the country.

[00:14:47] That's why he says I'm concerned that the new administration may not start their legislative agenda with tax cuts.

[00:14:54] He goes on to say I don't think tax cuts should wait.

[00:14:57] Just as I don't think Trump's working class coalition thinks tax cuts should wait.

[00:15:02] They want better take-home pay and lower inflation.

[00:15:06] And he goes on to say I'm all in favor of whatever it takes to produce three million more barrels of oil a day and bring gasoline down to $2 a gallon.

[00:15:17] Okay, for those of you in New York and California, I don't think you'll ever see $2 a gallon.

[00:15:22] But I think some of us in the middle parts of the United States, especially in the Sun Belt, might see $2 a gallon.

[00:15:28] I mean, saying $2 a gallon, I have to do it with a smile on my face because I'm not sure that's going to happen nationwide.

[00:15:34] But we will see.

[00:15:35] He also says, look, I'm totally in favor of building the wall in order to close the border because we just talked about that a minute ago.

[00:15:41] But he says leaving tax cuts in the dust for some later date does not strike me as a good idea, though in economic or political terms.

[00:15:51] Why not a one large-scale reconciliation bill?

[00:15:56] Now, first of all, let me explain that.

[00:15:58] Congress is supposed to have a budget.

[00:16:01] I will give partial credit to the fact that the Republican-controlled Congresses sometimes have been able to pass budgets, but they've gone nowhere in the Senate controlled by the Democrats.

[00:16:12] By the way, let's be honest, sometimes even when it's controlled by the Republicans, it didn't always go anywhere either.

[00:16:17] So we are left with these terrible reconciliation bills that just simply kick the can down the road and never really have a true, accurate budget process.

[00:16:29] So, again, we are going to have to have some kind of continuing resolution because later this month, we run out of money.

[00:16:37] The federal government runs out of money December 20th.

[00:16:40] I'm sure that they will find some way to kick the can down the road at least into January, maybe even into March.

[00:16:48] But somewhere along the line, we're going to have to have something that continues funding the budget for 2024-2025.

[00:16:56] Because the budget goes, of course, as we've talked about many times before from October to September.

[00:17:02] But anyway, we'll get into that.

[00:17:03] And so he's suggesting that would be the case.

[00:17:07] He also points out something else.

[00:17:09] An individual that has been designated as the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent.

[00:17:16] Scott Bessent has what's called the 3-3-3 formulation.

[00:17:21] If you have something to write with, you might put down 3-3-3.

[00:17:25] What does that mean?

[00:17:26] First of all, reduce the deficit by 3%.

[00:17:30] That's a lot.

[00:17:31] But I think it could be doable at least if you want to try to get some kind of a success.

[00:17:40] Actually, the first three could be actually 3% or better of growth.

[00:17:45] So 3% growth.

[00:17:46] And then 3% reducing the deficit by the 3% or less related to the gross domestic product.

[00:17:55] And then add, of course, we also mentioned the other one, 3 million barrels more a day.

[00:18:01] And you can imagine what would happen.

[00:18:03] A 3% growth rate.

[00:18:06] A 3% reduction from Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency or however.

[00:18:12] And then 3 million more barrels of oil every day.

[00:18:18] That would certainly stimulate growth and reignite what he calls the blue-collar boom.

[00:18:25] He then goes on to mention something else.

[00:18:28] And this comes from Senator Crapo, who probably will be leading, I think it's reasonable to assume, the Senate Finance Committee.

[00:18:35] But he points out that, and this is a defect that I've talked about, Dr. Merrill Matthews, when he's been in the program we've talked about.

[00:18:42] The Congressional Budget Office sometimes actually uses a weird scoring protocol.

[00:18:50] That is this.

[00:18:51] If you let spending go on forever, thereby increasing every single year, nobody scores that as a higher deficit.

[00:19:01] So you can spend and spend and spend and spend according to the scoring protocols created by the Congressional Budget Office.

[00:19:08] And that doesn't look like a deficit.

[00:19:10] But for some reason, if you let tax cuts go on forever, they want to score those as a huge deficit increase with a static score.

[00:19:22] And, of course, we've pointed out that if you are one of those people that believes it's a zero-sum game, well, fine.

[00:19:30] But it turns out that if you look at the Trump tax cuts, and then he quotes from one economist, Larry Lindsey, who in a report last year pointed out that the corporate income tax cut alone had produced over 30% higher revenues than originally were predicted by the Congressional Budget Office the year before Donald Trump's tax cuts were passed.

[00:19:53] As we've said before, the implication always is, if we cut taxes, we're going to cut revenue.

[00:20:00] And yet we can point time after time.

[00:20:03] And here's another good example.

[00:20:04] When you cut taxes, there's more productivity, and you actually increase revenues.

[00:20:10] And again, if you don't understand that, go back to Economics 101.

[00:20:15] Also, another argument, which we talked about yesterday as well, we need to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share.

[00:20:22] And he reminds us that the top 1% of taxpayers continue to pay more and more of the total share, now coming to nearly 46%.

[00:20:31] And so he reminds us of that as well.

[00:20:34] So his argument, pretty simple.

[00:20:35] The sooner that Trump tax cuts 2.0 can get moving in Congress, the happier you, as a listener, probably will be, especially if you're one of those people in what we call the working class.

[00:20:48] And the faster we'll reignite what was called a blue-collar boom in America.

[00:20:54] So again, a little bit of Economics 101.

[00:20:57] I will spare you any more economics for the day.

[00:21:00] But it's just an illustration of if you really understand what's going on, there are some things that we can do to make 2025 look a little better for you economically.

[00:21:11] And that's in our second article today.

[00:21:13] Very good piece written by Lawrence Kudlow.

[00:21:16] Let's come back.

[00:21:17] We're going to talk about some things you can do in your church.

[00:21:20] Also, what can we do to minister to people that have been through divorce?

[00:21:24] We'll talk about that right after this.

[00:21:30] The Bible tells us not to worry.

[00:21:34] And yet, there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today.

[00:21:39] Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry.

[00:21:43] God gives us a next step.

[00:21:46] He says we need to pray.

[00:21:48] But sometimes, even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:21:52] And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement,

[00:21:57] a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation.

[00:22:03] Each week, you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans,

[00:22:08] along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others.

[00:22:13] We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:22:21] Will you commit to pray for America?

[00:22:25] Go to pointofview.net.

[00:22:28] Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe.

[00:22:33] Again, that's pointofview.net.

[00:22:37] Click on the Pray for America banner.

[00:22:40] Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America.

[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:57] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:09] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Greg, once again, we're going to be spending some time now talking about an initiative that you need to know about.

[00:23:18] It's called the Church Initiative.

[00:23:19] It is put together by the founder, Steve Grissom.

[00:23:23] And Church Initiative is one that really attempts to address many of these issues, grief, divorce, family breakdown.

[00:23:30] Started back in 1993, really coming out of his own journey of pain and loss.

[00:23:35] And what began as kind of a two-person nonprofit now has 30 different team members.

[00:23:40] There are various successful curricula on divorce care, grief share, even the issue of single and parenting.

[00:23:49] And I might just mention that Steve is an individual that has worked in this area for a number of years.

[00:23:57] And as well, his wife, Cheryl, received a degree in pharmacy and has served as a hospital pharmacist.

[00:24:03] He's, of course, worked in the area of broadcasting.

[00:24:06] And we have a number of links that I think you're going to appreciate because these are resources that you need to know about.

[00:24:14] Churchinitiative.org is one of those.

[00:24:16] And we also have a second link to divorcecare.org, both of those on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:24:23] Steve, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:24:27] Hi, Kirby.

[00:24:28] Thank you for inviting me.

[00:24:29] It's great to be with you.

[00:24:30] Let's, again, maybe talk about the origin story because, in some respects, it was out of your own struggles and the need to find resources in the church that caused you to launch this church initiative.

[00:24:45] Indeed it was.

[00:24:47] I went through an awful divorce.

[00:24:50] I just turned my life upside down.

[00:24:53] It was devastating.

[00:24:54] I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

[00:24:57] My church helped me heal, and I was very thankful for that.

[00:25:01] And after a while, I went to them and said, you know, there are probably some things we could do in addition to what you helped me with.

[00:25:09] Would you mind if I started a support group for people going through separation and divorce?

[00:25:15] They said, hey, that sounds like a good idea.

[00:25:18] So I put together kind of a homebrew group.

[00:25:22] There really wasn't a curriculum, so I grabbed a video here and a book there and a tape there, and we started meeting, and it was working really well.

[00:25:32] But, Kirby, I started grumbling, and I said, okay, Lord, why doesn't somebody help a layperson like me with a curriculum that makes this easier to do, easier to put together each week?

[00:25:50] And this dialogue went on for a while, and finally I sensed the Lord saying, well, Steve, why don't you?

[00:25:56] And I started arguing back with a bunch of excuses why that didn't make any sense, the top of which was, well, I'm not a pastor.

[00:26:05] I'm not a counselor.

[00:26:07] I'm not a counselor.

[00:26:33] And she confirmed the call, and we began interviewing top experts with a biblical Christ-centered perspective on divorce, divorce recovery, and healing,

[00:26:48] and assembled those into a group of videos accompanied by a workbook and a leader's training guide,

[00:26:55] and then released that material so that the first group started meeting in the fall of 1994, 30 years ago.

[00:27:05] And, again, I might just mention that we have links to churchinitiative.org, but also, of course, one to divorce care as well.

[00:27:13] And I might just mention that people, even during the break or even right now if they're near a computer, can go to churchinitiative.org.

[00:27:19] They're going to see a number of little almost small suitcases, if you will.

[00:27:24] And you have divorce care.

[00:27:26] You have divorce care for kids.

[00:27:27] You have grief share, single and parenting.

[00:27:29] But since you, of course, have been talking about divorce care, let's talk about that because that is something that I have noticed churches don't really know what to do.

[00:27:39] And sometimes I'm asked to teach maybe a doctoral class at a seminary.

[00:27:45] I've done this at Dallas Theological Seminary, a couple of others, D-Men programs usually.

[00:27:50] And we get into the issue of divorce, and I find that a lot of the pastors, when they were in seminary,

[00:27:56] we just want to know, well, when is divorce biblically justified?

[00:27:59] When is it not?

[00:28:01] But when you talk to individuals that have been in the ministry for many years,

[00:28:04] they really don't have as much interest in some of the theological issues.

[00:28:08] They're asking all the practical issues, and that is I've got a number of people in my congregation that I'm ministering to that have been through a divorce,

[00:28:16] and I don't know what to do, and we haven't necessarily equipped pastors to know what to do.

[00:28:22] So if people click on the divorce care material, of course, there's a video to watch.

[00:28:28] It is actually listed as the number one divorce recovery program in the world.

[00:28:33] And as I understand it, after about 25 years of ministry, you've hit about 16,000 churches.

[00:28:39] So I would have to say, Steve, you finally figured out what works,

[00:28:43] and this is the kind of material that every pastor, every church leader should be aware of, shouldn't they?

[00:28:50] Well, we certainly hope so, and we appreciate your help in spreading the word.

[00:28:54] And the good news for pastors is this is designed not as a program that they lead and another thing they have to add to their plate,

[00:29:04] but these are tools to equip lay leaders within the church to provide weekly, ongoing divorce support groups

[00:29:14] with curriculum that the pastor can trust because it comes from the experts that we include on the video.

[00:29:23] So it's consistent week after week, semester after semester.

[00:29:28] And so the lay leaders often come out of a background of pain themselves, of going through divorce and healing.

[00:29:37] And quite often they'll say, you know, I don't know that there's anywhere in the church for me to serve.

[00:29:44] And they really light up when they hear about divorce care because it comes right out of 2 Corinthians 1, 3 through 4,

[00:29:55] comforting others with the comfort we've received from God.

[00:29:59] And we've had leaders who've been with us 25, 30 years that just say, this is my ministry.

[00:30:06] This is so fulfilling because it takes my pain and puts purpose to it.

[00:30:11] So good.

[00:30:12] Let's, again, just for a minute talk about if people were to open up the kit, what actually is in there.

[00:30:19] You have 13 video sessions.

[00:30:21] Those are either on DVD or get them online.

[00:30:24] There's a leader's guide.

[00:30:26] There are participant guides.

[00:30:27] There's, I love a video, surviving the holidays.

[00:30:30] We're right in the middle of those right now.

[00:30:32] And then a survival guide, a variety of others.

[00:30:35] And they're different levels because you might want to get the kit that's a ministry kit or a ministry bundle for seven or a ministry bundle for 15.

[00:30:43] As you point out just a minute ago, for pastors listening to this right now, we're not asking you to do anything else.

[00:30:49] Actually, almost all of this is lay lead, isn't it not?

[00:30:53] It is.

[00:30:54] And that's the joy of it.

[00:30:57] Some pastors might say, well, this is going to add to my counseling load.

[00:31:01] And many pastors have told us it actually lessens their counseling load.

[00:31:05] Sure.

[00:31:07] Divorce ministry can be perceived, justifiably so, as messy.

[00:31:13] Because these are people who are hurting emotionally.

[00:31:18] You know, their family is broken up.

[00:31:22] They are going through all sorts of emotional trauma, financial trauma, the depression, loneliness, anger, all of these feelings.

[00:31:33] You know, the last thing the pastor needs is for all of this to land in his office.

[00:31:38] So this is an outlet.

[00:31:41] This is a way for these people to come together every week.

[00:31:45] We move in 13-week cycles, so basically quarterly.

[00:31:50] And to come together in a group led by people who understand what they're going through with information that's relevant to their situation

[00:32:01] and to be able to bounce this off of other people who are going through similar experiences.

[00:32:08] And the biggest aha comes.

[00:32:11] It was amazing to me early on that people would say, you know, I just didn't realize that other people understood what I was going through until I got into a divorce care group.

[00:32:26] And on the one hand, that doesn't make any sense, obviously, because there's so much divorce out there.

[00:32:32] But on the other hand, understanding that somebody going through a divorce feels very isolated.

[00:32:39] They come into this group, and they'll start from a point of deep pain.

[00:32:44] Quite often by the end of the 13th week, we'll see a little bit of lightness in their life.

[00:32:51] And it's not unusual for them to repeat a group once or twice just to further absorb the material and to continue to connect with people in their group.

[00:33:03] Sure. It's like a 10,000-mile wheel alignment.

[00:33:06] Let's take a break.

[00:33:06] And if you'd like to join the conversation, we'll have Steve with us a little bit longer to the top of the hour.

[00:33:12] So that number is 800-351-1212.

[00:33:16] Perhaps you have had something like this in your own church.

[00:33:18] You'd like to give a testimony.

[00:33:19] You have a question or two.

[00:33:20] And we'll come back and talk a little bit more about not only Church Initiative, and that is churchinitiative.org.

[00:33:27] That link is on the website.

[00:33:28] But also, of course, the other one, divorcecare.org.

[00:33:31] And, of course, if you're interested in others besides divorce, grief, and a variety of others,

[00:33:36] those are all the different outreaches through Church Initiative.

[00:33:40] Let's take a break.

[00:33:41] We'll come back with more right after this.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:00] Steve Grissom with us for a few more minutes talking about the Church Initiative.

[00:34:04] And, of course, one aspect of that is divorce care.

[00:34:07] But also there's a divorce care for kids, grief share, single and parenting.

[00:34:11] And so I would encourage you to find out a little bit more.

[00:34:14] But, Steve, since you've been through a divorce and you've studied that,

[00:34:16] I thought we might go back for just a minute because I've written about this,

[00:34:20] and we've done interviews with a number of individuals over the years that have written books on the subject of divorce.

[00:34:26] But I think of, for example, the research done by Judith Wallerstein,

[00:34:30] who was looking at the long-term, what we might call longitudinal effects of divorce.

[00:34:36] And what we found is that adult children of divorce were still struggling with the divorce that took place years ago.

[00:34:45] And we've had Diane Medved on this program.

[00:34:48] She's the wife of Michael Medved.

[00:34:50] They're Jewish, as you might know.

[00:34:51] And she's written a couple books on divorce.

[00:34:52] But her first one, which was The Case Against Divorce, said, you know, when I first approached this topic,

[00:34:59] I figured divorce would be kind of a momentary, maybe a flash, maybe acute but not chronic,

[00:35:06] something that eventually people would get over.

[00:35:08] And I was wrong is how she starts the book.

[00:35:11] And so when some people hear about a divorce, they are thinking, well, this has been a really tragic situation,

[00:35:20] but eventually it will get better.

[00:35:22] But I think you have been able to prove that without some kind of counseling,

[00:35:27] without some kind of divorce care, those problems linger on.

[00:35:31] And then sometimes if you get married again, you carry all those problems into the next marriage,

[00:35:36] and your likelihood of being divorced again increases.

[00:35:39] What have you found?

[00:35:41] Oh, you're absolutely right.

[00:35:44] The divorce statistics for second and third marriages are just staggering.

[00:35:51] 65% for second marriages, more than 70% for third marriages.

[00:35:58] So it's destructive generationally, Kirby.

[00:36:02] It just, you mentioned the adult children of divorce.

[00:36:06] You are more likely to get a divorce if your parents have been divorced.

[00:36:12] I'm reminded there's a historian by the name of Will Durant who said the family is the nucleus of civilization.

[00:36:21] The family is the nucleus of civilization.

[00:36:24] As we break up families, as we see divorce break up families, we're chiseling away at our civilization.

[00:36:33] And so the societal cost, societal impact is huge.

[00:36:38] And, of course, the personal impact is heartbreaking.

[00:36:43] Right.

[00:36:43] I was thinking of somebody else that recently had won the Templeton Award and said, you know, again, family is the foundation on which society rests.

[00:36:52] And when the family does well, society is worth living in.

[00:36:56] But when the family falls apart, the culture and society fall apart.

[00:37:00] So there are many individuals who actually come to these conversations, not necessarily looking at it from a biblical, evangelical point of view, but are still recognizing some of the dangers.

[00:37:13] One of the other people we've interviewed on the past was Barbara Dafoe Whitehead.

[00:37:17] She's written about everything from divorce to cohabitation.

[00:37:20] Matter of fact, one of our most recent booklets is on cohabitation, quote from them.

[00:37:24] But I think it is interesting, Steve, that when you go into the secular literature, you go into the secular universities and you even talk to people looking at family.

[00:37:34] Many of them are recognizing how devastating divorce is, how devastating living together before marriage is, how devastating getting a second to marriage after divorce can be a problem.

[00:37:47] And in some respects, that's why you do the whole area of divorce care, because if we just assume that it is a problem in the past and I don't need to look in my rearview mirror.

[00:37:59] I just need to look out the front windshield.

[00:38:01] You're going to be in for a real surprise because you carry so much of that baggage and so many of those problems into the next relationship.

[00:38:09] And as a result, that's why I think even people listening to this right now that say, well, I had a divorce 20 years ago, but I've just moved on.

[00:38:17] Yeah, maybe you haven't, maybe you haven't.

[00:38:19] And I think they would benefit from going through divorce care as much as somebody who's just been through a divorce within the last six months.

[00:38:27] And we do see that.

[00:38:28] We see people come years, decades later with problems and they do find help.

[00:38:35] And, you know, you wouldn't necessarily infer this from our name, but one of the biggest emphasis inside of the divorce care curriculum is the top are the topics of forgiveness and reconciliation.

[00:38:52] Now, those tie together.

[00:38:54] And if you can forgive your spouse who is divorcing you or you are divorcing them for whatever perceived wrong there is, and if you can reconcile that marriage at some level, obviously a family can be healed.

[00:39:11] A family can be saved.

[00:39:13] I must admit to you, we don't see that as often as we'd like, but it's a real joy when we hear of a family that stays together because of the concepts learned within divorce care.

[00:39:26] Very good.

[00:39:27] Just before I let you go, let's talk about how people can participate.

[00:39:32] It's for the local church.

[00:39:34] You believe in the local church.

[00:39:35] That's why it's called Church Initiative.

[00:39:38] There are different levels of kits that people can obtain, whether they want to just get one for themselves or whether they want to get a whole bundle of those.

[00:39:47] And then, of course, as we said, it's lay lead.

[00:39:50] But talk about the next steps.

[00:39:52] People are hearing this right now.

[00:39:54] Steve saying, okay, that's maybe something we need for our church.

[00:39:57] Or maybe I'm in a position not of leadership, but I know a deacon, an elder, a pastor that I can pass this on to, and we would encourage them to go to our website, pointofview.net.

[00:40:09] And what they'll see is there's a place that actually talks about watch or listen.

[00:40:14] So they could click on the maybe listen button, send the podcast to an individual.

[00:40:19] But the first question they're going to have is, okay, what's the next step to be involved with Church Initiative?

[00:40:26] Well, you've described the path well, and that is to go to our website, divorcecare.org.

[00:40:32] And I would encourage people who are in churches who say, well, we don't have anybody going through divorce to even consider this.

[00:40:40] Because what we see is 50% or more of the people who come to a group are nonbelievers.

[00:40:50] And about 80% will come from outside the host church.

[00:40:55] So it's an outreach.

[00:40:58] It's an evangelism program.

[00:41:00] And so it is an emergency room for people who are hurting.

[00:41:06] And divorcecare.org, and there's a little tab at that website which says start a group.

[00:41:14] You click that, and it will walk you through every step that's necessary to get a group started.

[00:41:20] Now, if you're somebody who is looking for help or if you know somebody who needs help who's going through a divorce,

[00:41:29] you can go to that same website, divorcecare.org, and right on the first page, the front page,

[00:41:35] search for a zip code to find the groups that are nearest you.

[00:41:42] And they do meet online, and they do meet in person.

[00:41:45] Very good.

[00:41:46] Well, again, if you go to the website, you will see that if you scroll down from the picture of Steve Rissom that we have a link.

[00:41:51] And that will take you, of course, to churchinitiative.org.

[00:41:55] Or if you scroll down a little bit further, we have the one, of course, divorcecare.org.

[00:41:58] All of that available at our website.

[00:42:00] And, Steve, I really appreciate the ministry you've put together.

[00:42:03] I appreciate you giving us a half an hour today to kind of talk about that.

[00:42:07] And I guess the best thing to do is wish you a Merry Christmas.

[00:42:11] Well, Merry Christmas to you and your audience as well, Kirby, and thank you for this time to be together.

[00:42:17] We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we're going to get into some other issues.

[00:42:20] Christopher Riss will be with us.

[00:42:22] And, of course, he is the editor of the Worldview Bulletin.

[00:42:26] But knowing that some of you kind of tune in and tune out,

[00:42:29] you may not have heard at the very top of the program that we did announce at the top of the program

[00:42:34] that yesterday was Giving Tuesday, and we met the goal.

[00:42:37] Actually, just barely.

[00:42:39] We just went over it, I think, by $70.

[00:42:41] So it was an illustration, again, that we need everybody.

[00:42:45] If even one of you said, no, I don't think I can give,

[00:42:47] well, we probably would not have met the goal, but we did.

[00:42:51] And if you, of course, wanted to help top us off, that would be appreciated as well.

[00:42:56] Click on the button that says Donate.

[00:42:58] When we come back, we're going to get into some other issues,

[00:43:00] and I think you're going to find those fascinating as well.

[00:43:03] Any article that we talk about today is on the website at pointofview.net.

[00:43:07] Stay tuned.

[00:43:08] We have more right after this.

[00:43:11] Many years ago, they began saying that we live in the information age.

[00:43:16] Well, today there is so much information coming at us from every direction.

[00:43:20] The hardest thing is to discern which issues are really important,

[00:43:25] and how can I make a positive impact without wasting my time trying to figure out accurate information.

[00:43:32] Let me give you a suggestion to help with that.

[00:43:35] Visit pointofview.net.

[00:43:37] Look at the tabs across the top.

[00:43:40] Find the one named Viewpoints.

[00:43:42] Kirby Anderson and others on our team are constantly watching for news to identify those issues

[00:43:48] that you really need to know about.

[00:43:50] They boil things down in a brief summary,

[00:43:52] and then you can decide if it's something on which you want to learn more and get involved.

[00:43:57] Again, when you go to pointofview.net, click on Viewpoints, you'll see exactly what I mean.

[00:44:04] You'll see the issues that we are covering right now.

[00:44:07] And when you like what you see, I honestly think you will,

[00:44:10] you can slide on over, enter your email, and get them automatically sent to your inbox each day.

[00:44:17] That's it.

[00:44:18] Take a minute now.

[00:44:19] Be informed.

[00:44:21] Pointofview.net.

[00:44:22] Click on Viewpoints.

[00:44:28] Point of View will continue after this.