Point of View December 23, 2024 – Hour 1 : Critical Dilemma

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson.

[00:00:20] Thank you for joining me. We're going to spend an hour today talking about critical theory.

[00:00:23] And of course we have covered that before. I'm holding up our little booklet on critical race theory.

[00:00:28] But of course we've talked about this in a much broader way as well.

[00:00:32] That gets us into issues of wokeism. As a matter of fact we have a booklet on wokeism as well.

[00:00:36] And post-modernism, transgender and all sorts of other topics that we have written about.

[00:00:42] And certainly done programs on. But this whole area of critical theory is so important.

[00:00:47] Because it is not only something that has surfaced and really shows up in the universities.

[00:00:53] It of course has shown up in our culture as well.

[00:00:56] And so there are a number of resources that are out there.

[00:01:00] But this may be one of the best books ever written on the subject.

[00:01:03] And it is written by Dr. Neil Shenvey.

[00:01:06] He has his bachelor's degree in chemistry from Princeton University.

[00:01:10] A PhD in theoretical chemistry from UC Berkeley.

[00:01:14] He's taught at a number of universities.

[00:01:15] You may be familiar with the book that he has written in the past.

[00:01:19] Why Believe? A Reasoned Approach to Christianity Today.

[00:01:22] And also an individual who has spent a lot of time speaking on this issue of critical theory.

[00:01:28] A couple of weeks ago we actually had, as you might remember, Paul Baraka in studio.

[00:01:33] And he had just come from a message that he heard at Missio Nexus.

[00:01:39] And it was done by our guest.

[00:01:41] And he said, you've got to get Neil Shenvey on the program.

[00:01:44] That's when my producer Steve Miller said, yeah, we booked him for December.

[00:01:48] And so we are just thrilled that not only have other people recommended him.

[00:01:53] But we are able to bring him now to the conversation.

[00:01:57] So, Dr. Shenvey, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:02:01] Thank you so much, Kirby, for inviting me.

[00:02:03] Let's, if we can, at least kind of set the tone.

[00:02:07] I've looked at all 500 pages of the book.

[00:02:10] It is published by Harvest House.

[00:02:12] And again, I publish with Harvest House.

[00:02:14] Most of the time they have paperback books, usually smaller books.

[00:02:17] I think they have done a great opportunity to address this.

[00:02:22] And, of course, it is endorsed by a veritable who's who of individuals, many of whom have been on the program.

[00:02:27] But I think the obvious question some people might have on their minds is, here's a man who's a chemist, obviously brilliant.

[00:02:36] Of course, your co-host is an individual that does work in this field.

[00:02:40] But why did you get involved in discussing this whole issue of critical theory?

[00:02:47] Great question.

[00:02:48] Well, like most evangelicals, I was very confused as the culture shifted around issues of race, class and gender around 2015 or so, around the rise of Black Lives Matter.

[00:02:59] And I could see culture and even evangelical Christians using language that just sounded not quite right.

[00:03:06] But I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong about it.

[00:03:09] You know, I'm pretty apolitical personally.

[00:03:11] I try to focus on the gospel, reaching people with the message of resurrection and atoning death of Christ.

[00:03:17] And so I was not really super concerned with political stuff.

[00:03:20] But again, something was not quite right.

[00:03:23] And around that time, I met my co-author, Dr. Pat Sawyer, who, as you said, was getting his PhD in critical pedagogy and is a faculty member at UNC Greensboro.

[00:03:33] So we met and he began describing his research.

[00:03:36] And I thought, wow, this is what I'm seeing.

[00:03:39] And so that's, again, the beginning of our collaboration.

[00:03:42] We spent the last, what, seven years now just writing and speaking about these issues.

[00:03:48] And as I've learned more about it, I'm thinking, yeah, this is exactly what's happening to our culture and is affecting the church in ways, too.

[00:03:56] Let's begin, too, to talk about the fact there are a lot of buzzwords.

[00:03:59] Critical race theory is, of course, one.

[00:04:01] Queer theory, that's actually what they call it.

[00:04:03] Then Marxism, post-colonialism, neo-Marxism, second wave feminism, sometimes even a third wave feminism.

[00:04:10] These are a lot of phrases.

[00:04:12] And I remember after one of my commentaries aired, I think it was on the Moody Broadcasting Network, American Family Radio, can't remember.

[00:04:19] I had somebody call up and she was fairly articulate saying, you know, you keep talking about this idea of critical theory.

[00:04:25] But that's just something that they developed in the law schools.

[00:04:29] And I said, OK, that's true originally when, of course, you have a professor at Harvard who developed it and then later became the dean of the law school, University of Oregon.

[00:04:40] OK, I understand that.

[00:04:41] But then I went through and talked about all the other ways it was showing up.

[00:04:44] And there's a sense in which when you do a study like this, and your book's been out over a year, there are people that are saying, well, it's really interesting you're talking about that.

[00:04:54] But that's not what's happening in my local public school.

[00:04:57] But I think you found that to be the contrary, haven't you?

[00:05:01] That's right.

[00:05:02] In our book, we document just how critical race theory, well, it did originate in law schools in the 90s.

[00:05:07] It is, you know, infected a huge swath of academia and the culture.

[00:05:13] And if you actually read the early critical race theorists, they will openly admit and even boast about the fact that their theories are now being embraced by philosophers, by health care departments, by judicial system, by education.

[00:05:27] And they're not quiet about that.

[00:05:30] So this myth that critical race theory is just a legal discipline is simply a myth.

[00:05:36] It's a myth.

[00:05:36] It's not true.

[00:05:36] And if you read the primary sources, which we quote extensively in our books, they'll be open about that.

[00:05:42] So I think I don't know how this myth got started.

[00:05:44] I think it maybe originates with MSNBC, one of these talk show hosts.

[00:05:48] But yeah, if you look at the primary sources, they're very clear that these ideas are everywhere today in our culture.

[00:05:55] Well, again, here on Point of View, when Marlon Maddox started it over 50 years ago, we noticed the same thing, that oftentimes you would find some kind of cultural trend or some kind of educational fad.

[00:06:06] And after a while, when we would address that or Dr. Jim Dobson would address that or other commentators would mention it, then they would change the name of it and say, well, no, that's not what we're talking about anymore.

[00:06:18] So we've seen this before, but I think I would certainly want to warn our listeners for them to recognize that even if you say, I've never heard anybody talk about critical race theory.

[00:06:29] And yet I hear these people sometimes coming to the school boards, raising some concerns about this or raising concerns about critical theories that relates to gender and transgender individuals, or in some other way, maybe talking about this idea of having a different mindset or paradigm.

[00:06:49] These are really important issues.

[00:06:51] And I might just say, as I mentioned just a minute ago, even though this is a very lengthy book, you have broken it down into a section on understanding, then a section on critiquing, and then finally engaging.

[00:07:05] And just for a little bit, I think it might be helpful to understand that you're not saying that we aren't necessarily recognizing that there have been problems of discrimination against people of color or against poor people, against women, against homosexuals, even transgender people with disabilities, because that gets us into the whole idea of intersectionality.

[00:07:28] But what you are saying, and I think pointing out is some things like the Black Lives Matter.

[00:07:34] I saw one quote there where you said, Tony Evans said, look, if we take seriously the Black Lives Matter agenda, we can't support that as a Christian.

[00:07:42] But as you can, I think, well acknowledge, Neil, what we are dealing with are people that get caught up on the emotion and haven't thought through some of the implications, which is why you wrote the book.

[00:07:53] That's exactly right. We are very clear at the very outset that we are steadfastly opposed, as all Christians should be, to actual racism, sexism, hatred of any kind.

[00:08:04] We should love our neighbor as ourselves. But at the same time, the way to do that is through the truth.

[00:08:11] We have to be biblical about how we think about issues like racism, sexism, classism, etc.

[00:08:18] So a second chapter is a whole history of how we got here.

[00:08:21] Right. Why are race relations in the U.S. so fraught?

[00:08:24] The answer is because of our terrible history of slavery and Jim Crow.

[00:08:28] So we go at the high that as Christians, we can admit that our nation, like all nations, has been complicit in terrible things and great things.

[00:08:36] But we have to filter all these ideas through biblical lens.

[00:08:40] We're going to take a break and come back.

[00:08:41] I might even mention we're going to show some diagrams from the book.

[00:08:44] So if you have access to a computer, you might want to follow along that way.

[00:08:48] We'll be right back.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] You know, during this Christmas week, I've taken the time to discuss the theology of some of the Christmas hymns and carols that we sing.

[00:09:08] Today, I'd like to talk about the First Noel.

[00:09:10] It is an English song dating back to the 16th century.

[00:09:14] Some people believe that the First Noel was French because of the French spelling of Noel, but it is actually an English song.

[00:09:19] The French word Noel does mean Christmas and is relevant to the lyrics of the song.

[00:09:24] The First Noel was published in 1833 when it appeared in the work Christmas Carols Ancient and Modern.

[00:09:30] The first line of the song suggests a December date for the birth of Christ.

[00:09:34] The First Noel, the angels did say, was to certain poor shepherds in the fields as they lay,

[00:09:40] in the fields where they lay keeping their sheep on a cold winter's night that was so deep.

[00:09:45] Although many doubt that Jesus was born in December, there are some theologians,

[00:09:49] such as the author of the Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, who believe that a December date is possible.

[00:09:55] Whatever the case, about the date of the birth of Jesus, the song continues,

[00:09:59] Born is the King of Israel.

[00:10:01] It reminds us that a king was born that night, yet few understood the significance of a birth in Bethlehem.

[00:10:06] Even the wise men from the east did not completely understand the significance of his birth,

[00:10:11] but they were guided to him by a star.

[00:10:14] For all to see there was a star shining in the east beyond them far,

[00:10:18] and to the earth it gave great light, and so it continued both day and night.

[00:10:22] The song continues on to say that three wise men came from a country far.

[00:10:27] The Bible does not tell us how many wise men there were.

[00:10:30] What we do know, there were three kinds of gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

[00:10:34] What the Bible clearly teaches, however, is that Jesus was born,

[00:10:38] and that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

[00:10:41] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View.

[00:10:46] For a free booklet on biblical reliability, go to viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:53] Viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:11:04] Continue your conversation today as we talk about critical dilemma, the rise of critical theories,

[00:11:08] and social justice ideology implications for the church and society,

[00:11:13] written by Neil Shenvey as well as Pat Sawyer.

[00:11:16] And for just a few minutes, let's, if we can, Neil, get into origins and two individuals you talk about that are key.

[00:11:23] One is Karl Marx, of course, but the other is what is called the Frankfurt School,

[00:11:28] which was the Institute for Social Research in Frankfurt, Germany.

[00:11:32] And I noticed that when I was in a graduate-level class, well, this is now decades ago,

[00:11:38] when I took a class in Marxism, taught by a Marxist, with Marxists in the class,

[00:11:43] that there was kind of a growing division, because the original Marxist idea was that you have this cultural base,

[00:11:51] capitalism and the various assumptions of Western society, that leads to a cultural superstructure.

[00:11:58] And so you can change the economic base, and that will change the cultural superstructure.

[00:12:04] But the people that were buying into what now we call critical theory,

[00:12:09] were actually maybe taking some ideas from Antonio Gramsci and others,

[00:12:14] in which they were saying, well, it's not an either or, it's a both-and.

[00:12:17] In other words, you change the base, but the culture changes the base as well.

[00:12:21] You've got a good diagram that I think illustrates that,

[00:12:24] because ultimately we no longer have this sort of Marxist idea that we need to bring about capitalism,

[00:12:31] socialism, and communism, that we can, by actually finding victim groups,

[00:12:38] that's where I'll get into the issue of intersexuality in just a minute,

[00:12:41] those are the individuals that will help change society,

[00:12:44] and as we change the society, we'll change the actual base.

[00:12:47] So in some respects, it is Marxism, but it's kind of a different kind of Marxism, isn't it?

[00:12:53] That's exactly right.

[00:12:55] Kirby, what a great description of the difference between Marxism or classical Marxism and neo-Marxism.

[00:12:59] So as you said, Marxism believes that the economic base, like who owns the factories,

[00:13:05] it's the base that generates things like culture, arts, religion, and ideas.

[00:13:10] It's a one-way street, whereas neo-Marxism says actually no, it goes two ways.

[00:13:16] Sometimes cultural ideas can affect who owns the factories and who controls resources.

[00:13:21] And so you say, why does it matter?

[00:13:23] Why can't we all just call it Marxism?

[00:13:25] And the answer is if you understand the difference between Marxism and neo-Marxism,

[00:13:30] then you understand a lot of strange, otherwise strange phenomena.

[00:13:33] So, for example, why is it that Fortune 500 companies would be embracing wokeness?

[00:13:39] I mean, Google, Amazon, you know, why are these companies embracing it?

[00:13:45] If it's just Marxism, then they're clearly capitalists.

[00:13:48] They're billion-dollar companies.

[00:13:49] And the answer is, well, because they're embracing it neo-Marxism.

[00:13:53] So critical racery is much more neo-Marxist, for example, than Marxist.

[00:13:57] Or here's another thing.

[00:13:58] The 1619 Project with the New York Times, they argued in this series of articles

[00:14:03] that America's founding was not 1776, but rather 1619 when the first black slaves were brought to the Americas.

[00:14:10] That's their claim.

[00:14:11] Well, who is the number one opponent of this critical racery-based 1619 Project of the New York Times?

[00:14:18] And the answer is the Worldwide Socialist website.

[00:14:21] They ran a series of articles debunking the 1619 Critical Race 3 Project.

[00:14:28] But these guys are socialists.

[00:14:29] Why?

[00:14:29] Because they're classical Marxists who reject neo-Marxism.

[00:14:33] It's a fascinating example of how a little knowledge can help you unravel these otherwise very strange phenomena.

[00:14:40] Again, I recommend the book.

[00:14:41] And, again, it's hardback, so it'll be a little bit more expensive.

[00:14:44] But still, I'm impressed that Harvest House has tried to keep the cost down.

[00:14:48] And if you really want to understand that, that is the case.

[00:14:51] What I want to do now is put up a chart that shows up early on to identify this idea of the various intersectionality.

[00:15:01] And so for those of you that are watching on the computer, you will see we've already posted it.

[00:15:05] But let me, if I can, with your help, Neil, maybe go through that.

[00:15:09] You identify the identity marker race.

[00:15:11] Well, that leads to racism and whites oppressing people of color.

[00:15:16] On the left-hand side, you have class.

[00:15:18] That's classism and the rich oppressing the poor.

[00:15:21] Kind of classical Marxism.

[00:15:22] Then the other marker is biological sex.

[00:15:25] Well, that'd be sexism.

[00:15:26] Men oppressing women.

[00:15:29] Sexuality.

[00:15:30] Well, that would be the idea of heterosexuals oppressing homosexuals.

[00:15:35] And one that we've run into a lot lately in our whole issue of transgender, gender identity.

[00:15:41] That is cisgender people oppressing transgender people.

[00:15:45] And I just mentioned five of the ten.

[00:15:48] But, Neil, really what we're talking about here is what's called intersectionality.

[00:15:52] In other words, any victim group has the opportunity to speak to these issues, to call out sexism, racism, ableism, ageism, whatever it might be.

[00:16:05] And the oppressed are able to have that platform.

[00:16:10] The oppressors are supposed to keep silent.

[00:16:12] And so, in some respects, what you're trying to do in the book is say this goes far beyond what we might call critical race theory.

[00:16:21] And it shows up in almost every factor and sector of society, doesn't it?

[00:16:26] It does.

[00:16:27] It's not unique to critical race theory.

[00:16:29] But it should be emphasized that critical race theorists from the outset have been intersectional.

[00:16:32] So, the term intersectionality was coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, who is a critical race theorist, and is probably the most prominent, well-known critical race theorist on the planet today.

[00:16:43] She was one of its founders.

[00:16:45] So, if you look at critical race theory texts, they will all emphatically state that critical race theory is not merely about race.

[00:16:52] It's also about gender and heterosexism and sexism and classism and ableism.

[00:16:57] So, the idea that you just segregate out the racial component of these theories, it's just not true, and they will tell you that.

[00:17:04] So, I think I see people saying, well, I'm going to accept critical race theory, but only on board the race ideas.

[00:17:11] And I would say they themselves will tell you that's not possible.

[00:17:15] You have to accept an entire intersectional framework to really embrace the theory.

[00:17:20] Let's also help people understand that we're used to hearing about race and sometimes class, certain gender and sexuality.

[00:17:26] But let me go down on that chart again.

[00:17:28] You have one on colonial status, and you talk about colonialism, the colonizers, and the indigenous people.

[00:17:37] Because that gets us to another booklet we have, and that's on Islam and Israel and the Palestinians and the nation of Israel.

[00:17:46] And that is, you have a situation when Israel first began.

[00:17:50] It was sort of the David versus Goliath because it was surrounded by all these Muslim world.

[00:17:55] But over time, as Israel became more powerful, it began to be known as a colonizer.

[00:18:02] It began to be seen as an oppressor group.

[00:18:05] And thus, that only could be explaining why you have so many people over this last year,

[00:18:12] especially young individuals and college campuses, protesting against Israel and supporting a terrorist group like Hamas.

[00:18:20] Is that fair?

[00:18:21] That's exactly right.

[00:18:23] We actually wrote an article for Cullen Wright's Substack on October 7, 2023, when there was a terrorist attack on Israel by Hamas.

[00:18:31] And we give examples of signs that young progressives were waving, queers for Palestine, Palestinian justices, climate justices, sexual justices, queer justice.

[00:18:42] They were very intersectional ways of thinking.

[00:18:45] And that explains to you why Israel is positioned as an oppressor, or even Jews actually are now an oppressor group because they're seen as the colonizer,

[00:18:54] whereas the colonized groups, like the Palestinians, are oppressed.

[00:18:58] This also, by the way, explains why wokeness is a worldwide phenomenon.

[00:19:01] I've fielded personally calls from Ghana, Kenya, India, South Africa, where the people, Christians there are dealing with wokeness.

[00:19:11] You might go, Kenya is 99.9% black African.

[00:19:14] How can they be dealing with critical race theory?

[00:19:17] Well, they will tell you it's not about race in our context.

[00:19:20] It's about intertribal conflict or colonial conflict.

[00:19:24] So, really, this is not just about race alone.

[00:19:29] It's really about a whole worldview that latches on to the most salient conflict in any culture, whether it's race or gender or colonialism,

[00:19:38] and then turns that into the lens through which you see all of reality.

[00:19:41] It really is like a religion or worldview that wants to capture more and more of the landscape of your mind.

[00:19:49] And as Christians, we're called to transform our minds and think biblically, not just imbibe these ideas coming from our culture.

[00:19:56] We're going to take a break, but when we come back, I thought we would get into another topic.

[00:20:00] We sort of have already talked about critical race theory in other programs, and you have such a good chapter on that.

[00:20:06] But you have a chapter on critical theory as it relates to queer theory,

[00:20:11] and you quote from some individuals that we've had on the program, people like Abigail Schreier, the irreversible damage,

[00:20:18] and, of course, we've had conversations with Carl Truman and others.

[00:20:21] So, I want people to understand this is more than just critical race theory.

[00:20:25] So, we're going to get into, and again, you might not like the way it's called, but it's called queer theory,

[00:20:30] and that's what we're going to be talking about in just a few minutes after the break.

[00:20:33] And, again, the book is entitled Critical Dilemma.

[00:20:36] You might be able to find it in your local bookstore, but we made it very easy for you to order it if you go to our website.

[00:20:41] Of course, we have a link to Neil Shenvey as well, and you can find all of his social media connections on our website at pointofview.net.

[00:20:50] Critical Dilemma, the rise of critical theories, the social justice ideology implications for the church and society.

[00:20:57] But as we go to a break, let me also mention we have a banner there because as we are coming to the end of this year,

[00:21:03] we certainly encourage you to give the gift of truth.

[00:21:06] We have a matching challenge of $125,000.

[00:21:09] You don't have to wait until the last few days.

[00:21:11] If you actually want to give now or make that call, 800-347-5151, you will get a dollar-for-dollar match.

[00:21:20] And if you are appreciative of the kind of conversations, even the one we're having today,

[00:21:24] we would encourage you to go to the website, pointofview.net, or give us a call, 800-347-5151.

[00:21:31] Our nation is experiencing a major realignment right now.

[00:21:35] Political and cultural frameworks are shifting.

[00:21:39] Perhaps for the first time in a long time, some things are starting to shift in a positive direction.

[00:21:45] But as this political and cultural realignment takes place, another realignment is desperately needed.

[00:21:52] A realignment to God's Word.

[00:21:56] Data shows that few Americans' worldview is aligned with biblical truth.

[00:22:01] But you can help change that by partnering with Point of View, where God's truth comes first.

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[00:22:47] Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] You are listening to Point of View.

[00:23:02] The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station.

[00:23:10] And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:13] Continue your conversation today as we talk about the book Critical Dilemma,

[00:23:16] the rise of critical theories and social justice ideology implications for the church and society.

[00:23:22] The whole section on understanding this idea of critical theory, its origins and contemporary theory,

[00:23:29] as well as this idea of critical race theory.

[00:23:31] But I did want to focus just a few minutes on queer theory as well.

[00:23:35] Then we'll get into critiquing and engaging because that's a very significant part of the book.

[00:23:41] But when we talk about queer theory, that really gets us, if we can, Dr. Shenve,

[00:23:47] to a lot of conversations that we've had with many of our listeners.

[00:23:52] Because for every parent concerned about the fact that their child was told because he or she is white that they are oppressors,

[00:24:00] there are probably dozens of parents who have been concerned at the promotion of homosexuality,

[00:24:08] the promotion of transgenderism,

[00:24:11] the allowing of men or young boys to come into women's bathrooms or girls' bathrooms.

[00:24:19] And a lot of that also has been harmful, as, of course, the book by Abigail Schreier,

[00:24:25] Irreversible Damage, the Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters.

[00:24:29] So this idea of queer theory may sound academic and something for maybe just the leftist institutions of the university,

[00:24:38] but they've made their way into society as well, haven't they?

[00:24:42] Absolutely.

[00:24:43] Queer theory began, you could argue, in the 70s with Michel Foucault and then later Judas Butler in the 90s.

[00:24:49] And it was for a long time a very esoteric, random academic theory,

[00:24:53] but absolutely it's percolated into policy and educational systems.

[00:24:58] And there's no question.

[00:25:00] Actually, apparently, I think, I believe the Supreme Court decision on Bostock,

[00:25:06] cited at Kimberly Crenshaw's work on intersectionality and thinking about gender identity, too.

[00:25:11] So these are all, they've moved from the ivory tower into the water cooler talk.

[00:25:17] You know, they're the things you're grappling with every single day.

[00:25:19] If you're working with students, working with young people of any kind, it's kind of, like I said,

[00:25:24] it's something that they take for granted that, well, obviously, gender and gender identity are different.

[00:25:29] Obviously, gender is a spectrum.

[00:25:31] You can have multiple genders.

[00:25:32] You can pick from a list of three genders on Facebook.

[00:25:35] This is, yes, on the one hand, it owes a lot to, you know, online sites like Tumblr,

[00:25:41] but also if you trace it back far enough, it does derive from ultimately these theorists writing in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

[00:25:49] And, again, I may even hold up our latest book here on postmodernism.

[00:25:53] You mentioned Foucault for just a minute ago.

[00:25:55] Sometimes people hear these words like postmodernism or some of these other critical race theory,

[00:26:00] transgenderism, and go, well, it's not going to affect me.

[00:26:02] But it does.

[00:26:03] It affects our kids and our grandkids, and it's something to pay attention to.

[00:26:07] So let's, if we can, talk about how to interact with this,

[00:26:10] because it doesn't take long, about halfway through your book,

[00:26:14] for me to realize that one of the reasons you wrote that was not only to understand it,

[00:26:18] but because you have a deep concern that these ideas that started outside the church

[00:26:24] have made their way inside the church.

[00:26:26] Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

[00:26:29] Sure.

[00:26:30] For example, a few years ago, an evangelical conference called Revoice began through the PCA,

[00:26:36] the Presbyterian Convention of America, and they're conservative Presbyterians,

[00:26:42] but those churches began being involved with its Revoice conference.

[00:26:47] It was trying to think of a new way to talk about homosexuality,

[00:26:52] but as the years have gone on, and officially on paper they would say homosexuality is a sin,

[00:26:58] but as the years have progressed, they've gotten more and more and more progressive in their outlook

[00:27:03] and are really toying with a lot of these very bad ideas.

[00:27:06] An example was in a recent Revoice conference.

[00:27:09] They had breakout sessions for different racial groups.

[00:27:13] They had everyone wear name tags with their pronouns on them.

[00:27:16] This is an ostensibly evangelical group that supposedly committed to biblical orthodoxy regarding sexual ethics,

[00:27:23] but I'm talking about liberal dominations out there that are ordaining transgender ministers.

[00:27:28] So we have to understand the ideas at play.

[00:27:32] So one big one is that queer theorists drive this sharp wedge between sex and gender.

[00:27:38] They would view sex as biological, but then gender is a social category, a social construct.

[00:27:44] So you can be biologically male and yet identify with the social category of female.

[00:27:50] That would make you a transgender woman in their eyes.

[00:27:53] So if you understand how they think about those two categories, you've got to be very careful then when you talk about those words.

[00:28:00] You use words like sex and gender interchangeably.

[00:28:03] It's not how queer theorists talk about those words.

[00:28:06] So if you understand how they think, it can help you identify why they get things so wrong.

[00:28:11] Well, again, that's one of the issues that you really make a case that semantics matter.

[00:28:16] But as I introduced you, I mentioned you'd spoken at Mission Nexus, and one of the individuals that talked about that said you got quite a bit of a pushback.

[00:28:24] And I think I understand why, because another chart, I was going to put it up here, but I think we can explain it very easily.

[00:28:29] What's the fundamental human problem?

[00:28:31] Well, as Christians, we say the fundamental human problem.

[00:28:34] We know what that is, sin.

[00:28:35] But a contemporary critical theory says, no, it's oppression.

[00:28:39] We would say, well, then how do we solve that problem?

[00:28:42] We would say, well, that's redemption through Jesus Christ.

[00:28:45] How would a critical theorist say it?

[00:28:47] Oh, that's activism and solidarity.

[00:28:49] How do we know the truth?

[00:28:51] We would say from revelation and reason.

[00:28:54] The critical race theory or the critical theorist would say a lived experience.

[00:28:59] And really, what's the end goal of history?

[00:29:01] Well, we say the, well, first of all, again, the millennium and then the new heaven and the new earth.

[00:29:06] For the critical theorist, it's social justice.

[00:29:09] These are completely incompatible.

[00:29:12] And yet I see people that are doing missions.

[00:29:14] I know people that are doing evangelism that are using the phraseology, maybe even the worldview and mindset of critical theory, aren't they?

[00:29:25] That's right.

[00:29:26] I think people don't realize how deep the division goes that they think they can sort of dabble in a critical theory.

[00:29:34] It's like saying I'm going to dabble in Islam or I'm going to dabble in Hinduism as a Christian.

[00:29:39] It's like, well, you can't really dabble in a different religion.

[00:29:42] It's one or the other.

[00:29:43] You're going to be forced to choose.

[00:29:44] Oftentimes, people just adopt the jargon like white privilege or intersectionality or systemic oppression.

[00:29:50] They use those words without really understanding where they come from, what they mean.

[00:29:55] But the more they use them, the more natural it seems to adopt that framework.

[00:29:59] And that's why you can see the progression.

[00:30:02] You see people who begin pretty orthodox as evangelicals and embrace this language superficially.

[00:30:07] But as the years progress, you see this slide towards progressive and liberal theology.

[00:30:15] And we argue in the book extensively and show examples, this is not just accidental.

[00:30:21] It's them being logical.

[00:30:24] They are following the logical implications of their deeply held beliefs to their logical conclusions.

[00:30:30] And we want to then trace that problem back to the source and say you have to stop this at the root.

[00:30:36] You have to tear out the roots of critical theory and not merely prune the branches.

[00:30:41] And again, as I've pointed out, the abstract issues are contradictory.

[00:30:46] But even if you get down to the practical, one example I use in my little booklet on critical race theory comes from James Lindsay.

[00:30:53] I give him full credit for that.

[00:30:54] But he just says, imagine if you have a small shop, perhaps a tailor shop, where you have to assist each customer individually.

[00:31:01] And you're the sole proprietor.

[00:31:02] You only serve one customer at a time.

[00:31:04] And then imagine two people enter your store, one white and one black.

[00:31:07] Well, here's where the problem is.

[00:31:09] If you serve the black person first, well, critical race theory would say, well, you did that because you're racist.

[00:31:16] Because you don't trust the black person to be in your shop unattended while you help the other customer.

[00:31:20] If, on the other hand, you choose the white person, well, that shows that you're already racist.

[00:31:25] So you're racist if you choose black.

[00:31:26] You're racist if you choose white.

[00:31:28] And I think so many times, Neil, we've run into a situation in which critical theory, even at the practical level, is one of those heads I win, tails you lose.

[00:31:39] It is always, if you will, directed at and giving preference to the person who is accusing you of being the oppressor.

[00:31:50] And that's right.

[00:31:51] And that's the very nature of critical theory.

[00:31:53] Critical theory aims at, I think, what Karl Marx called the ruthless critique of all that exists.

[00:31:58] They're always trying to peer beneath the veneer of justice and righteousness and objectivity to see the real way that power secretly is corrupting your behavior.

[00:32:09] So that's why these double binds exist, because no matter what you do, they can attribute bad motives to it.

[00:32:16] I think Robin DiAngelo, the author of White Fragility, which was being recommended by numerous evangelical organizations and churches a few years ago, it's a terrible book.

[00:32:24] But she wrote a recent book called Nice Racism, Nice White Racism, or something like that was a title.

[00:32:32] And she will problematize things like smiling too much as a symptom of white people somehow being paternalistic towards blacks or kind of covering up their racism.

[00:32:43] It's like, this is going to be a disaster.

[00:32:45] Could you imagine?

[00:32:46] You know, I'm half Indian.

[00:32:48] My parents, you know, my mom's white.

[00:32:50] My dad's Indian.

[00:32:51] But could you imagine if they embraced her ideas and assumed that there's this latent racism underneath all their interactions?

[00:32:59] She says in one of her books that racism cannot be absent from your interracial friendship.

[00:33:04] It can't.

[00:33:05] It's impossible.

[00:33:06] She says, the question is not, did racism take place, but only how did it take place?

[00:33:14] Because racism is always happening all the time.

[00:33:17] This is going to destroy your relationships.

[00:33:19] It will destroy the church.

[00:33:21] It is a poison and a cancer.

[00:33:23] We have to completely excise it.

[00:33:25] Let's take a break, and we'll come back.

[00:33:26] We'll talk a little bit more about what can we do.

[00:33:29] And it does seem to me that there are some options.

[00:33:32] And the best one, of course, is, no surprise, the biblical options.

[00:33:37] We'll talk about that right after this.

[00:33:40] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[00:34:01] Back for a few more minutes.

[00:34:01] Again, the book is entitled Critical Dilemma, The Rise of Critical Theories and Social Justice Ideology Implications for the Church and Society.

[00:34:09] Neil Shenvey and Pat Sawyer are the authors.

[00:34:11] It has been out for about a year, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find.

[00:34:14] But we do have a link, so you can get it in hardcover or Kindle.

[00:34:17] And, Neil, for just a minute, it's, I think, striking that you begin the whole book with a series of quotes.

[00:34:24] Micah 6.8.

[00:34:25] For he has told you, O man, what is good.

[00:34:27] And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with your God?

[00:34:33] You also have 2 Corinthians 5.

[00:34:36] God is reconciling himself to the world to himself.

[00:34:40] And, of course, a key verse that we use so often, 2 Corinthians 10.5, that we should be taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

[00:34:47] And I use that because oftentimes people, when they hear us critique critical theory, critical queer theory, critical race theory,

[00:34:58] or even raising questions about wokeism, it implies that we don't think there are issues.

[00:35:04] But you have a whole section on engaging.

[00:35:08] We don't want to destroy the church with these ideas, but we recognize that we really have a responsibility to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world, don't we?

[00:35:20] That's right.

[00:35:20] We make it very clear that we are not trying to just silence people with legitimate concerns about racism or sexism or any real injustice.

[00:35:29] I mean, one example we give in the book of systemic injustice, which can exist, is abortion.

[00:35:34] It's systemic.

[00:35:36] It's not merely individual people doing bad things.

[00:35:38] It's a systemic, wholesale, state-approved murder.

[00:35:43] So that category is real.

[00:35:46] Now, just because someone claims something is systemic injustice doesn't mean it is.

[00:35:49] But there are systemic injustices that we should be aware of, and abortion is the number one obvious one.

[00:35:54] And racism is a real scourge.

[00:35:57] I get called racist slurs on Twitter all the time.

[00:36:00] So I can tell you personally that it exists.

[00:36:02] So we want to make it clear that we are not trying to silence people raising these concerns.

[00:36:08] We want Christians to talk about these issues.

[00:36:10] We want them to do it in front of an open Bible, not an open Robin DiAngelo book.

[00:36:15] That's the key is we want to bring everything back to Scripture and ask what does Scripture say about this topic,

[00:36:20] and are the ideas that we're imbibing biblical or unbiblical because we're commanded to take our thoughts captive by the renewing of our minds.

[00:36:28] So that's, again, root everything in the Bible.

[00:36:30] And I might just mention that you aren't the only one, and there are a number of Christians that have written very good books on this issue.

[00:36:37] But a while back we had Jonathan Haidt on the program, and he co-authored the book Coddling of the American Mind,

[00:36:43] although his co-author is a believer.

[00:36:46] Jonathan Haidt is not, but he talks about, you know, the untruth of fragility and emotional reasoning and all the rest,

[00:36:52] where these ideas come from.

[00:36:53] So there are many other people speaking to this issue.

[00:36:56] But let's come back to the fact that whether you look at this from a Christian point of view or a non-Christian point of view,

[00:37:01] you can see the dangers.

[00:37:03] But I think it would be appropriate to come back to, well, what would the Bible require when we do indeed see this?

[00:37:10] If, again, going back to this very key passage, Micah 6, 8, that we should do justice, love kindness, walk humbly with your God.

[00:37:19] A while back I was speaking on the subject of wokeism, and one of the questions from the audience is,

[00:37:24] well, then what are you proposing we do?

[00:37:27] It seems to me that Marxism and this critical theory has the best way to address those issues.

[00:37:33] And I was sort of thinking on my feet, and I actually said, no, just the opposite.

[00:37:37] And that is that if you go back over the last, say, 200 years and look at the most successful social movements

[00:37:45] that have actually dealt with discrimination and injustice,

[00:37:49] they were things like the abolition movement, the suffrage movement, the temperance movement, the civil rights movement.

[00:37:57] And what did they all have in common?

[00:37:59] They were biblically based.

[00:38:01] During that same period of time, as Karl Marx writes his book and then other take Marxist ideas,

[00:38:07] what has been the greatest scourge in Western culture?

[00:38:12] Well, without a doubt, it has been the use of Marxist ideas that almost always lead to disaster.

[00:38:19] So if you want human flourishing and you want to actually have a successful attempt at dealing with true injustice,

[00:38:28] it seems to me that the Bible has had a much better track record over the last 200 years than Marxism has or ever will have.

[00:38:37] Is that fair?

[00:38:38] That's right.

[00:38:39] And it's because the Bible is rooted in reality because God created the universe and God gave us the Bible.

[00:38:44] And so, of course, the ideas the Bible provides are going to correspond to reality.

[00:38:49] And when you have ideas that don't match reality, they're going to break down at some point.

[00:38:53] You're going to run into reality, as I think Nancy Piercy says.

[00:38:57] So take something like race.

[00:39:00] The critical race theory is trying to solve racism.

[00:39:02] Well, that's a good thing.

[00:39:03] But the way it prescribes the solution is a bad thing.

[00:39:06] It's going to create more suspicion and disunity in the church.

[00:39:09] Where do Christians start?

[00:39:10] Christians start the discussion with the idea that there's one race, the human race.

[00:39:15] God created all people.

[00:39:16] We have one blood through Adam.

[00:39:19] That we all are sinners.

[00:39:20] We're all fallen.

[00:39:21] And those of us who are believers are redeemed in Christ.

[00:39:23] There's now neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor female, male nor female.

[00:39:27] There are all one in Christ.

[00:39:28] We begin there.

[00:39:30] And then we should, the other thing we say is have dialogue.

[00:39:33] Talk to people.

[00:39:34] If there are concerns in your church about race, then get together with people and say,

[00:39:38] hey, tell me what your perspective is.

[00:39:40] I'll tell you mine.

[00:39:42] And then we're going to sit down in front of an open Bible and ask whose ideas, whose

[00:39:46] perspective is compatible with what the Bible tells us about who we are in Christ.

[00:39:52] Dialogue is just so important.

[00:39:53] It's one of the things that gets silenced by critical theory.

[00:39:56] Because critical theory does not want to hear from the oppressors.

[00:39:58] It only wants to hear from the oppressed.

[00:40:00] And then only if they are spouting out Marxist ideas.

[00:40:04] They don't want to hear from quote-unquote oppressed people who disagree with critical

[00:40:08] race theory, for example.

[00:40:09] So again, ground yourself in the Bible and then dialogue.

[00:40:13] Talk about, with other Christians, talk about these issues in front of the Word of God.

[00:40:17] Let me just mention that we do have a link to your website, shenviapologetics.com.

[00:40:23] Don't even have to know how to spell all that because the link is there.

[00:40:25] Also a link to your Facebook page, also to X.

[00:40:29] There's a place where people can see your bio, videos.

[00:40:32] They can contact you because I suspect because of this, there may be some people that would

[00:40:37] like to have you come and speak to their Christian school, to the university, to their church.

[00:40:42] Maybe they would like to know more about your other book, Why Believe?

[00:40:46] And maybe learn a little bit more about how to apply apologetics.

[00:40:50] And I love the cut line there.

[00:40:51] It says, Neil Shenvey, Christian apologetics from a homeschooling theoretical chemist.

[00:40:56] So again, some great resources.

[00:40:59] And if people would want to contact you, maybe they have some follow-up questions.

[00:41:03] Or of course, they'd like to buy the book from you as well or get the discussion guide that's

[00:41:08] available.

[00:41:08] All of that is available at your website, isn't it?

[00:41:11] That's right.

[00:41:12] Yeah, we have a big link to Critical Dilemma and lots of other resources too, which are all

[00:41:16] free.

[00:41:16] The book's not free, but all the other articles and essays are.

[00:41:19] So feel free to check those out.

[00:41:20] And again, high praise to Harvest House for publishing it.

[00:41:24] I know that our good friend Sean McDowell is the one that encouraged you to go with them.

[00:41:29] And of course, I've published with them over the years.

[00:41:31] And I just greatly appreciate the time that you put into this book, but I also appreciate

[00:41:36] the fact that they were willing to publish it.

[00:41:38] And I would encourage people to get a copy.

[00:41:40] And again, I just want to thank you for being with us today here on Point of View.

[00:41:44] Thank you so much, Kirby.

[00:41:45] Just before we take a break, we're going to spend some time in the next hour getting into

[00:41:49] a couple of issues.

[00:41:50] By the way, we're going to talk with our good friend Ray Comfort.

[00:41:52] Got this book, 50 Years of Open Air Preaching.

[00:41:55] But let me just real quickly, since I have about a minute, mention a couple of things.

[00:41:59] First of all, as we are coming to year end, we really need to hear from you.

[00:42:04] And one of the things that I have been very encouraged to announce is that we now have a matching

[00:42:10] challenge up to now $125,000.

[00:42:13] And so that is a dollar-for-dollar match.

[00:42:17] So if you've been saying, I really have enjoyed what I've heard here on Point of View, even

[00:42:21] today on this whole issue of critical theory.

[00:42:24] Maybe you've learned some things you would hear nowhere else except here on Point of View.

[00:42:28] Can I ask you to maybe click on that button that says Give Now?

[00:42:32] That's a great opportunity for you to join with us.

[00:42:35] Of course, in just a minute, you'll hear the number 800-347-5151.

[00:42:40] I think some of you would rather just call, talk to someone, put it on your credit card.

[00:42:44] You can do that as well.

[00:42:44] But it's a dollar-for-dollar match, and we certainly are dependent upon your financial gifts for

[00:42:49] that as well.

[00:42:50] I might also mention some of you asked about the tour to Greece, which will take place in

[00:42:55] May.

[00:42:55] That is still available.

[00:42:57] So again, you might call that number, and we'll send you a brochure, and you can find

[00:43:00] out a little bit more as well.

[00:43:02] 800-347-5151.

[00:43:04] If you'd like to know more about this book or some of the other resources, all available

[00:43:08] at the website.

[00:43:09] We'll be right back.

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[00:43:20] His story is a perfect illustration.

[00:43:23] Well, I've been a supporter at Point of View since the 70s, and I appreciate the fact that

[00:43:29] truth and love are discussed equally and that God's Word never changes.

[00:43:33] We have four generations in my family who have been taught these things, these truths in the

[00:43:39] fifth generation we've just been blessed with, who I'm sure will be blessed by this ministry

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[00:43:45] So I just appreciate the fact that it's solid, it's truthful, it's honest, and there's no

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