Point of View August 3, 2026 – Hour 1 : When War is Justified

[00:00:04] Across America, live, this is Point of View. And now, Liberty McCartney.

[00:00:20] Welcome to Point of View and happy Monday. Thank you for listening and tuning in as always. Got an exciting day planned for you and an exciting week ahead. Kirby is visiting some Point of View supporters around the nation. You'll be hearing him do a live remote broadcast from New Hampshire later in the week. That'll be exciting. And then I'll be filling in for a few days as well as Dr. Merrill Matthews later in the week.

[00:00:41] So, got a lot of stuff lined up. And today, some wonderful interviews. We'll be getting to those a little bit later. Going to be talking about Just War Theory with Daniel Darling. And this is important. I'm really glad that this conversation is happening now because as we know, the war with Iran is ongoing. And unfortunately, in the world we live in, when you look around the globe, there's never any shortage of conflict and war and violence.

[00:01:06] And so, it's always timely, but especially right now as we're having these conversations and we're seeing these headlines, to be able to talk about what it means to apply biblical ethics to the conflicts that we see around us. So, we're going to talk about that here in a little bit later in the show. Also, an exciting interview with Pastor Philip DeCourcy, who's going to be a new guest with us on Point of View today, talking about heaven and the afterlife.

[00:01:28] He says something great, that even though the majority of Americans acknowledge that they believe in heaven or some version of the afterlife, most of us live like it's just a fantasy. So, what does it look like to actually read the Bible and what it tells us about heaven and apply that perspective to our daily life? I'm excited about that conversation, but first, let's talk about some news. So, this is a case that I think we'll probably revisit on Friday when we have our weekend edition roundtable because I want to get some legal perspectives.

[00:01:58] And, of course, we always have somebody usually from First Liberty Institute with us. I think we'll have Aaron Smith this Friday to get a legal perspective. But I want to just let you be aware of it first. And that is a case coming out of California. This is from the Wall Street Journal. Again, we'll link it later in the week. But if you want to look it up, the title is California's Case Against Second Chances. This is pretty dark.

[00:02:22] But when we are talking about the abortion issue in the United States of America, we're not surprised when it's dark. So, you may be familiar from listening to Point of View or supporting Pro-Life Ministries, as I know many Point of View listeners do, that there is something called an abortion pill reversal. This is super important. Write this down. Remember it, abortionpillreversal.com. That's abortionpillreversal.com.

[00:02:48] That's a website you need to know in case you ever encounter a young woman who, for some reason, has taken an abortion pill and has decided that she changed her mind and she wants to save her baby. There is a procedure. Now, it is not a guarantee. It is not a 100% accuracy rate. Some people estimate that maybe like 60% or more than that, being cautious, of course. But it does work.

[00:03:14] And so, what happens with abortion pill reversal, and I'll get to what's happening in this case in California in just a moment. But what happens is when you take the first of two pills that actually make up the abortion pill regimen, it cuts off progesterone to the unborn child, which is what, if that's the hormone that allows the baby to grow inside the mother's womb.

[00:03:34] So, if you take an extra dosage of progesterone within a very short window, usually within 24 hours after you've taken that first pill, it can actually reverse the effects of the progesterone blocker and save the baby's life. And this has happened in multiple cases because, as we know, and as the abortion movement doesn't like to acknowledge, so many women, including very young women, are under duress.

[00:04:02] They are under pressure when they take the abortion pill. They don't necessarily want to take it. Maybe they don't even know what they want. Talk about pro-choice, right? It's not. It's not a pro-choice movement. But when they look up, can I change this? Can, is there any sort of reversal? Abortion pill reversal pops up. So do some other pro-life organizations that try to connect with women who may be online Googling different options when they realize they've made a big mistake and they want to undo it.

[00:04:31] And they will connect them with an OBGYN that will prescribe this dosage. So, that's the background that you need to know. Elizabeth Barrett, I'm reading from Wall Street Journal here, was a young college dropout in Southern California. She swallowed a pill that a local abortion clinic had given her and then almost immediately after changed her mind. So, she went online. She started searching for advice on how to undo the chemical abortion. And she found Heartbeat International, which is a Christian nonprofit, a pro-life nonprofit.

[00:05:00] And she was able to get connected with a doctor that prescribed her the reversal. And now she is a mom and she has a healthy baby girl. And as the authors say, the state of California wants to be sure that such things never happen again.

[00:05:16] So, there is actually a case unfolding at a trial at a state court in Oakland, California, where the attorney general is seeking an injunction up to $20 million in fines against Heartbeat International and a smaller pro-life ministry there in California called Real Options.

[00:05:36] Basically saying it is wanting to find them and make it illegal in the state for nonprofit organizations to even talk about the abortion pill reversal. So, not only is this so dark because this is something that the woman sought out. She wanted this and then she found the information thanks to pro-life organizations who are willing to provide that to women.

[00:06:05] And she took it. It was successful. She had her baby and all's well, but apparently not. So, what I want to talk about on Friday whenever I have Dr. Matthews in here and Aaron Smith as well from First Liberty is the legal implications of this. Because, I mean, even as they go over here in the article, if this is allowed to stand, it sets a very dangerous precedent.

[00:06:29] Basically saying that any nonprofit that promotes something that the state does not agree with can be fined for doing so. Now, the doctors could still prescribe the pill, but nobody can talk about the fact that it's even an option. So, you see how useless, basically, it would make that option, the abortion pill reversal. So, I would think that people on all sides of the issue, honestly, would see how dangerous this is.

[00:06:56] I mean, it could also impact Planned Parenthood. And, of course, I don't want Planned Parenthood to be out promoting abortion, but I am in favor of free speech. And what I don't want is the government telling any nonprofit organization, including pro-life organizations, that they cannot promote real options, as the name of that one nonprofit is, to women who may be seeking to save the life of their unborn child.

[00:07:21] So, it's actually two Catholic bishops who wrote this editorial in the Wall Street Journal talking about this case. And they list another example as well, again, just showing how many women take advantage of this. And it is because of pro-life organizations getting behind it and promoting it online so that women can get connected with doctors, because not all doctors will actually prescribe this. Abortion clinics certainly won't prescribe it. Oh, no, you changed your mind? No, sorry. You know, they're not going to give you a reversal.

[00:07:49] So, they end by saying this. They said it's a rare case, but it should bring together both sides of the abortion debate. In particular, it tests the souls of those who claim that the platform, claim the platform of pro-choice. What kind of people see a pregnant woman who wants to reverse the effects of an abortion pill and think, let's punish the nonprofits that informed her she has a choice? Well, the abortion lobby. That's who. And they ask, are they really pro-choice or do they just like killing?

[00:08:18] Well, sadly, I think we know the answer to that. We live in a culture of death. And the pro-choice movement is not pro-choice. It is pro-abortion. And they don't actually care about women's agency or else they would try to do something about the multiple women that are forced into their clinics by abusers who don't want to be there. And nonprofits like Real Options, like Heartbeat International, are trying to tell the women that they have a choice. Abortionpillreversal.com. Memorize it. We'll talk about that more later in the week. And we have more coming up right after this break.

[00:08:48] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Most Americans are not aware of what is in the platform of the Democratic Socialists of America. Karl Rove documents their platform and asks if Democrats will disavow the DSA platform.

[00:09:16] In case you are wondering if we are misreading the platform, a recent interview with a DSA co-chair confirmed that what we are reading is indeed their goals. The DSA platform calls for common goods and utilities to be run through the government through public ownership of the largest corporations and essential industries. As socialists, they are working toward the end of capitalism. It should occur to any rational person that any freedom of choice goes out the window. You will have to take whatever the government deems is necessary for you.

[00:09:44] Today, if you don't like a store, a doctor, a hospital, a car, or an airline, you can choose another. All those free market blessings will evaporate. The list of free things is mind-boggling. This includes universal health care at no cost to individuals, along with all medical education and training, and paid family leave and education from pre-K to college. As I often say on radio, if you think health care is expensive now, just imagine how expensive it will be when it's free.

[00:10:11] Democratic Socialists will demilitarize police departments and redirect funding as steps towards abolishing the police and prison system. The platform also calls for abolishing all borders and giving amnesty to anyone in this country illegally. It would also defund the Department of War. The Constitution is also on the chopping block since they want to abolish the Senate and the Electoral College and replace the President and Supreme Court with a new structure. Most Americans would be shocked to read the DSA platform. Check it out for yourself.

[00:10:41] I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Welcome back. Let's turn to our guest, Daniel Darling.

[00:11:09] Daniel is an author, pastor, and thought leader. He currently serves as the director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and assistant professor of faith and culture at Texas Baptist College. He is a columnist for World, a contributor to USA Today, and has pastored churches in Illinois and Tennessee. Daniel, thanks so much for joining Point of View today. It's so great to be on here again with you, and great to hear what you all are doing here on the radio this morning.

[00:11:37] Well, wonderful, and we appreciate your perspective today because, as I was saying at the beginning of the show, this is relevant. It really is always relevant when you look around the world and see that there's always conflict and war and violence of some kind happening. And so it's timely, I think, for Christians right now to consider what does the Bible say about war? And so you have an article that's in the Worldview Bulletin on Just War Theory, which is actually adapted from a chapter in your recent book, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life.

[00:12:06] So I encourage people to check that out, and they can find that online as well. But let's start by talking about when war is justified and kind of look at that, and then we can broaden it and talk about the rest of that chapter here a little bit later. But basically there are two views I think that people are familiar with within Christianity, which would be pacifism and then belief in some sort of just war theory.

[00:12:33] So situate us historically a little bit in terms of, you know, was one kind of more dominant over the course of time and then one emerged more recently? Or has there kind of been a majority consensus for a long time in the church?

[00:12:47] Well, I think, you know, this wrestling with war has been a feature of the church really the entire church age as Christians have tried to think through and engage with the conflicts around the world. I think for the most part Christians, the majority view has generally been a obviously detest of war and trying to avoid avoidance of war,

[00:13:16] but an acknowledgement acceptance that sometimes conflict's inevitable, which obviously led to development of just war theory, starting with Augustine and obviously being developed over the centuries. There's always been a strain of pacifism. There's always been both, you know, denominations and groups of Christians that have had pacifist views. But I think for the most part, the more dominant view has been some version of just war theory.

[00:13:44] And so that's a term that we've heard of before, and we're going to get into the exact details of that and what the criteria are. But first, there are two components that you describe that are really kind of the like a bigger picture. And then that also have a part to play with individuals who are actually engaging in war. So what are those two components? Well, you know. Just war theory typically.

[00:14:10] I mean, it's, you know, to break it down, there's just ad bellum, which is what are the justifications for entering war? And then just in bellow, the conduct during war. So justification for entering war. Just war theory essentially says, you know, the cause has to be just. That, you know, it can't be just a desire for conflict, a desire for territory, a desire for whatever. There has to be a just cause. Is there an evil actor that has to be confronted?

[00:14:40] Those kinds of things. That's the right authority. Does the state have the right authority? I do believe Romans 13 gives the government the sword to protect its citizens, to defend its citizens. It has to be good intentions. It has to be a last resort. You know, have all peaceful avenues been pursued, diplomacy, other things. And then there has to be a chance of success. You know, war aims have to have a goal. And is there a chance of success? It might have a just cause.

[00:15:09] It might have the right authority. But is there a possibility of winning this war? And then obviously conduct during the war. A war can be just, but it can be conducted unjustly at times, right? Soldiers have to separate combatants from civilians. It has to be proportional, meaning that violence used in a specific attack has to be proportional to the goals. In other words, not just violence for violence's sake, but proportional to those goals.

[00:15:35] And then caring for prisoners of war and those kinds of things in a just manner. Those are sort of the basic outlines of just war theory. Yes. Thank you. And that's helpful. And I want to ask a couple follow-up questions about some of that and just maybe ask some difficult questions. And we'll see if we can wrap our mind around them because it is hard sometimes to apply that.

[00:15:57] But I do want to just talk for a minute about where this comes from because, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember reading the phrase just war theory in the Bible. Right. So where do we get this in terms of our Christian history and heritage? Yeah, I think it's like other concepts that Christians have drawn from Scripture, right?

[00:16:21] So if you think about other concepts that may not be necessarily that language or those words used in Scripture, but it's drawn from Scripture. And I think, you know, those of us who believe in some version of just war theory look, I think, at the authority that God gives to the state. Romans 13, for instance, that the state bears the sword. So if a state bears a sword, a sword is a violent weapon.

[00:16:47] It bears a sword in order to protect its citizens, to promote good and oppose evil. A lot of Christians, well-meaning Christians will confuse the role that God has given the state with the role that God has given individuals, right? So individual Christians are told to turn the other cheek, to not seek vengeance.

[00:17:10] And we're not to do that because God has delegated that authority for earthly justice to the state, right? So you and I can say, I'm not going to seek vengeance. I'm not going to turn the other cheek. I'm not going to commit violence because God has ordained the state, the civil authorities, to take care of those things. And so sometimes we flatten those two. So people, whenever there's a war, will say, well, what happened to turning the other cheek and all those kinds of things?

[00:17:39] Well, the state has a different responsibility, right? That doesn't mean every war is just. That doesn't mean the state should be cavalier. The country should be cavalier about going into war. But there is justification at times in order to protect its citizens from evil actors in a fallen world that a country has to engage in conflict. Yeah, and I actually really like that. And, you know, in your chapter on this, in your book, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life,

[00:18:06] you kind of talk about how when we read things one chapter at a time, sometimes we miss some important context. But in Romans 12, Paul actually reiterates something that God says in the Old Testament, which is, vengeance is mine and I will repay. And then you go on in Romans 13, and you actually get a description of how God utilizes governmental authority to enact his vengeance. And I don't know why.

[00:18:32] I just never, I mean, I have quoted both of those verses separately, but never really put them together like that. Yeah, they really do go together. And I think those distinctions are important. I remember when Israel was attacked on October 7th, 2023, and, you know, just violently attacked civilians, slaughtered by terrorists who filmed it and were gleeful about it.

[00:18:59] And immediately there were some Christians saying, well, don't seek vengeance, turn the other cheek. And it actually would be unjust for a country to allow its civilians to be attacked by terrorists without doing something about it, right? It's usurping its role. Very similar to folks who, on the far left, who call for, you know, abolishing the police or whatever. You know, a good police force ensures that people are safe.

[00:19:28] And one of the things that actually equalizes citizens is a good government, good police, because when you have the absence of justice, those who are more powerful prey on the weak, right? So you need a government to step in there and defend the weak, defend the vulnerable, defend their citizens.

[00:19:51] And I also think as much as I respect pacifism and we should have a heavy heart and be really reluctant to go to war, I think pacifism, you know, has the benefit of protection. People who are pacifists have the benefit of protection from people who are not, right?

[00:20:13] So every one of us that lives freely in the United States and walks freely in our neighborhoods and our communities and we're not subject to war like many other places around the world here in the United States, we can do that because there were soldiers who purchased or, you know, fought for our freedom, gave their lives. There's a government that is defending us.

[00:20:36] And so it's easier, I'm going to say it's easier to be pacifist when you're under the umbrella of protection of people who are not pacifist, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's such a great point. I want to talk some more about that because, again, in that chapter, you do talk about different things like violence and the origin of conflict and self-defense and Christians' role in those kinds of positions.

[00:21:00] Like, can Christians serve in the military with a good conscience or in other roles where you are given authority to enact justice like policing, as you gave an example. So we're about to go to a break. But right now we're talking with Daniel Darling about the article that is in Worldview Bulletin, When Is War Justified? Actually adapted from part of one of his new books, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life. You should check it out. And we will be right back to continue talking about this issue after the short break.

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[00:22:49] Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now here again is Liberty McCarter.

[00:23:16] Talking with Daniel Darling about Just War Theory taken from his book, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life. There's a wonderful chapter on war, conflict, violence, understanding all of those things from a Christian perspective. So definitely you can check that out. Look up his book, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life.

[00:23:35] But I did want to ask a couple of questions that I think about and I think a lot of people probably do whenever maybe our nation is entering a war or we are looking at conflict around the world. And so we were talking about kind of those criteria for just war theory, including that, you know, a nation must have a legitimate authority.

[00:23:55] And you were explaining how you believe Romans 13 gives nations the authority to act in such a way that they are enacting justice and protecting the innocent and the vulnerable. But the second requirement is that a nation must have a just cause. And so something that I can imagine a lot of people or have heard a lot of people pushing back on and how do we know what just is? Because something, you know, we're all fallen human beings.

[00:24:24] Sometimes it can be really hard to separate our own selfish intentions and desire from what is truly right, especially when you add power into that. And if people have a mistrust of their government's intentions and then we we hear a lot about national sovereignty and everything, too.

[00:24:39] And so when we're talking about, you know, foreign policy and all these complicated factors, how can we say that we know what is just when maybe is that just our preferences opposed to another nation's preferences or their intentions or what they would consider just? So how do we respond to that from a biblical perspective? That's a great question.

[00:25:03] And I think particularly in an age where there's deep distrust of all institutions, particularly government, and where there's not as much of a moral consensus in the country on what is just right. I mean, I think part of part of what makes just war work is that there's a sort of a moral consensus of what is just right.

[00:25:23] I do think, you know, even people who are not Christians can sort of intuit from their senses a sense of right and wrong through, you know, what we call natural law or God's revelation that way, you know, general revelation. But, you know, these things are trickier, right? And in this time, it's, you know, it's trickier to understand, you know, is this cause just? I think it is incumbent on leaders to really thoroughly explain a rationale for a conflict.

[00:25:52] Here's why we're doing it. Here's what it's for. You know, I think, you know, if you were, it's one thing if you're in a country that was attacked, you know, as Israel was on October 7th. You know, there's obviously clear justice to to defeat terrorists. So that doesn't happen again. You think about the Iran war. I think you can make a case that, you know, they have killed Americans.

[00:26:20] They've threatened us with nuclear weapons and all those things. We want to prevent them from getting it. But then but then you do run into complications of even if it's just is this a wise choice? Is it doable? Is it winnable? Is it achievable? It's doable. But the list of reasons for why it's just are pretty small. Right.

[00:26:39] I think I don't think you can say just mere territorial expansion or wanting a country's natural resources or all those kinds of things are are just reasons for going to war. There has to be a sort of a real just cause of maybe you're, you know, defending your country. You know, you think about World War Two where there was several just reasons. Number one, we were attacked.

[00:27:02] Number two, you know, you've got, you know, this fascist government in Germany and totalitarianism and Japan and all these places, you know, enslaving free people, executing the Holocaust with genocide, all those kinds of things. So there's legitimate causes there to go to war. Where maybe you might look at other American conflicts and say, you know, those are a little those are on shakier ground. Right. Yeah. And people are going to land on on different places. Definitely.

[00:27:32] I think if I I'm not sure if I'm paraphrasing this exactly correctly, but I think Secretary Marco Rubio said that kind of gave the justification for preemptive self-defense when he was talking about the U.S. Our reasoning for engaging in the Iran war. But I know we're both talking about this from the perspective of evangelicals.

[00:27:55] But I did want to just mention the recent encyclical where, you know, that I think got a lot more press among even non-Catholic circles than they typically do. At least it seemed like that to me. So that was entitled Magnifica Humanitas. And most of the headlines were about really his perspective on artificial intelligence. And it was very interesting.

[00:28:17] But he also critiqued war in the encyclical and specifically said that he thought just war theory was outdated because of how how much has changed in our world. And so I wanted to get your perspective on this. I think it sparks interesting conversations. I don't really know what to think of it, but we do have so much new technology.

[00:28:44] Even with AI, we're talking about autonomous weapons and warfare, where it seems like in some cases maybe it can help save lives of military members. But in other cases, the human decision factor is getting further and further removed from the actual act of warfare. And so when we talk about all these different components, not to mention algorithms and propaganda and persuasion.

[00:29:10] I mean, do you do you think that that affects just war theory or do you think there's still a case to be made for it? Well, I think, you know, first of all, I do respect the Pope. And I think, you know, I'm not a I'm not Roman Catholic. I'm an evangelical Southern Baptist and thankful for the Reformation, but still do acknowledge the influence of the Catholic Church and particularly the Pope.

[00:29:36] And on the one hand, I think we do want to have a Pope that is continually warning the world of the horror of war and that, you know, if at all possible, to to try to work for peace. And I don't I don't take offense at that, even though I think that there are some conflicts that are justified. I think to have a Catholic Church continually warning the world and saying war is not good.

[00:30:01] I mean, you know, even those who are in favor of a conflict, you know, you have to acknowledge that the war itself is is as awful. Right. And so I think I think it's good to have a pope that is continually pressing that point. I think just for theory as a basic outline is still relevant today.

[00:30:23] But I do think echoing a little bit what the pope says that we have to update our ideas and our terms and our and our our ethical frameworks because of, as you said, the technological advances we have. You know, war has changed. Right. I mean, it it changed in the 20th century with the advent of of airplanes. Right. So now you have, you know, planes that can drop bombs on cities. You know, now you have technology today.

[00:30:51] Fast forward to we have drone warfare where there's less human engagement involvement, which on the one hand saves lives. On the other hand, it in some ways it can dehumanize those who are operating these things. And so now, like, we have to really be critical and think about this. I mean, one aspect that we have to really think critically is urban warfare, where just war theory says we need to distinguish between citizens and combatants and non combatants.

[00:31:20] How do you do that in an urban situation where the bad guys hide behind citizens? You know, how do you how do you do that in a just war way? I think there's ways to do that. But we constantly have to think through this and update our ethical frameworks, you know, in every generation so that we, you know, are are approaching these things with as much wisdom and sobriety as we can.

[00:31:48] And as much as I still believe in just war, I do think we have to be guarded against a kind of lust for violence, lust for war. As Eisenhower, President Eisenhower warned the military industrial complex, even though I'm a big supporter of the military, I think a strong military is important. We want to guard ourselves as Christians against a kind of a war hungry lust for violence, even if we believe that sometimes conflict is necessary in a fallen world.

[00:32:18] Yeah, absolutely. We're about to go to a break. But when we come back, I do want to talk a little bit about that and just the role that Christians can play in service in those kinds of positions. But like you said, guarding our hearts and our attitudes. And, you know, like I said, I I think that this latest encyclical, I'm honestly probably didn't really even know what that word meant until pretty, pretty recently because it was in the news more than usual.

[00:32:45] But it did bring up some interesting questions for Christians to talk about. And so, you know, like you said, we always have to be applying biblical ethics to the changing times. And it just makes me think, you know, before we go to the break here, that maybe Christians need to do a better job or maybe we already are, but need to be intentional about being on the front end of these conversations.

[00:33:07] Because if we can apply a just war theory to, you know, the framework of what we are developing and the capabilities there, then maybe we wouldn't have to play catch up and say, OK, well, now we have all this. But we have to figure out how to use it in a biblical way. And of course, there's some things that are just out of our control because we live in a sinful world, too. But it does seem that we should really be involved in as many ways as possible in bringing a biblical worldview to bear on all these different aspects of life, which can get so complicated.

[00:33:36] But we have more to discuss. Daniel's still going to be with us after the break. So just a few minutes and we'll be right back on Point of View. You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported source for truth. All right.

[00:34:04] A few more minutes with Daniel Darling here talking about just war theory. And I did want to just kind of broaden again and talk about something that you write in your chapter on this topic in your new book, which is really the origin of war and conflict and violence, because someday we get to look forward to a reality where these things don't exist. But right now they do. And something that you will hear from a lot of people who are non-Christians or maybe atheists.

[00:34:33] I think this idea was popularized maybe by a John Lennon song that really wars all happen because of religion or, you know, religious zealotry or belief. And this is why that we have conflict in the first place. And if we could get rid of national borders or if we could get rid of private property or if we could get rid of religion or whatever the scapegoat tends to be, then we just wouldn't have to worry about war and conflict anymore. But life doesn't really work that way.

[00:35:01] So what is the biblical understanding of why these things happen that we can bring into those conversations? Well, Scripture tells us that war is a result of sin. You know, sin has so infected the human experience since the Garden of Eden. It pits men and women, image bearers against each other. People lust for power. People lust for positions that other people have. Nations, you know, want other things that people have.

[00:35:31] We also think about Satan as the prince and power of the air that influences these things. And the idea that if you got rid of religion, there have been a lot of wars fought over religion. I mean, we can't deny that. I mean, I think a biblical Christian would say many times those were people getting away from the Christian worldview instead of toward it. But if you take religion out, that doesn't make it any better, right? We tried that in the 20th century.

[00:36:00] The Soviet Union was a godless empire, and it banned religion, banned Scripture. You know, you couldn't have Bibles. And the Soviet Union ended up killing more people than even were killed in World War II under Hitler, you know, and others. And so a godless state is no more a protector of people than a state that has religion, right?

[00:36:25] Now, religion can be misused and misapplied, but, you know, that's not the solution. The solution is, as the prophets predict, when Christ returns in power as the prince of peace and he makes all things new, and there'll be no more war on no more of those things. Yes. And in the meantime, you know, how do we walk that out?

[00:36:51] And so going back to something that you said a minute ago or a few minutes ago, we were talking about Romans 13 and the authority that is granted to nations, which can also be misused because nations are governed by sinful people. But it would be wrong to not address the injustices often perpetrated against the vulnerable and the innocent. And so I thought you said something really interesting that is important for this conversation,

[00:37:20] and I hadn't necessarily thought of, but many times in the Old Testament when prophets are rebuking different rulers, it is because they have failed to enact justice on behalf of the vulnerable. Is that right? That's exactly right. I mean, you know, a nation that allows the vulnerable to be preyed on, whether it's, you know, a poor justice system or poor policing in a city where women are assaulted,

[00:37:48] where children are attacked and killed, where the vulnerable are taken advantage of, that's injustice. And or a nation where that would allow terrorists. I mean, the basic role of government, forget everything else government is doing, at its most basic it is to protect us, right? To protect its citizens. And a government that will allow evil actors, we acknowledge there's evil actors,

[00:38:15] there's terrorists, there's people in the world, allow evil actors to prey on its citizens. There's not a government that is upholding its responsibility to be God's servant for good in Romans 13. And as you mentioned, the prophets, many of their critiques of the nations, besides their critiques of idolatry and sexual immorality and all those things, were their inability to keep the powerful from preying on the weak. And I think that's a really important role of government.

[00:38:44] And we should be thankful for people who have given their lives for our freedom. You know, my grandfather fought in World War II. And I think of, he fought in the Pacific. And I think of all those men who stormed the beaches of Normandy, gave their lives so that we could have freedom today. We owe them a debt of gratitude. They gave their lives for us so that we could live freely. This doesn't mean that every war is just. And as citizens who vote and have a voice, we should influence our government and help shape policy.

[00:39:14] And if there are military actions we disagree with or we don't think are just or wise, we should speak out against them. But the idea itself of conflict, I think, in a fallen world is something that we have to reckon with. Yeah, yeah, so true. And so when we, you know, as individuals step into those roles in many different ways in the government, either in the military or like on a smaller scale and policing or different things like that, like you mentioned, you know, your grandfather.

[00:39:43] And I think a lot of people listening either have served or have, you know, relatives and loved ones who have that we're very proud of. But it can be it can be very hard to as a Christian in that kind of position where you are, you know, bearing the weight of enacting justice and protecting the innocent to keep your heart in the right place and still understand that, you know, violence is always a tragedy, even if sometimes it happens in in a just cause.

[00:40:12] So do you have, you know, words for for people who are thinking about those roles or maybe in those roles and how we can keep a biblical perspective at the forefront? Yeah, I think, first of all, it can be a noble calling to serve in the military, serve as a police officer, a first responder. I think of Jesus interaction with Roman centurions, you know, the Roman centurion that asked for him to heal his daughter. And he said, I've found no great faith in Israel. And and that centurion was working for a government that wasn't always just,

[00:40:41] but even but Jesus did not condemn that person for for that position. Think of Cornelius, too, when he comes and Peter and he converts to Christianity. Peter doesn't say give up your position in this government. I do think we need good people of faith who have good consciences shaped by Christianity, shaped by the Bible to be in the military, to be as first responders, because that is needed. Right. Because what will fill that vacuum will be people that don't have that.

[00:41:09] And so I think it's a very important role for Christians. And there may be times I think it's noble for Christians to serve in the military, to serve as first responders. There may be times where your Christian conscience says there are certain things I cannot do that I'm being asked to do to violate Christian conscience, which, you know, it would provoke a conflict there. So it doesn't mean that it's a blank check for every single thing the military does.

[00:41:32] But we need people with good worldview in these positions so that they can live out their calling and enact justice in a way that honors the Lord, that doesn't have excessive violence or excessive, you know, vengeance, but lives it out in a good way. And I think we as the church need to encourage our brothers and sisters in the military, minister to them with counseling and, you know, help for their families.

[00:42:00] And there's some really great ministries doing some great work in that way, because these are folks that really need spiritual guidance and spiritual care. At our institution, we have folks that come and get training and then go off to be military chaplains, which I think is a really great calling to help minister to those who are putting their lives on the line. Absolutely. Well, we're about out of time. But, Daniel Darling, thank you so much for being with us on Point of View today and talking about this important topic.

[00:42:29] Well, thank you for having me. Wonderful conversation. Really appreciate the great work you're doing here on the radio. Well, thank you. We appreciate that and appreciate your voice and look forward to talking with you again in the future. Again, that was Daniel Darling. We were talking about his article, When Is Word Justified?, which is actually adapted from a recent book that he's published, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life. That conversation was based on just one of the chapters in his book, and he goes over so many cultural topics and applies a biblical worldview to them,

[00:42:58] which is what we want to equip you with here at Point of View. So definitely check that out. You can find his information at the website, pointofview.net. When we come back, let's talk about what happens after we die. Evan, what does the Bible say about it? We'll be right back on Point of View. Who can you trust? Years ago, many of us could probably have provided a fairly long list, but today, well, today, it seems we almost can't trust anyone.

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