Point of View August 27, 2024 – Hour 2 : Nowhere to Live

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Live, This is Point of View

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: actually be housed other than maybe in a rescue mission. We've talked about on the other extreme

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the fact that there are individuals that would like to have a house but because the increase

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in the cost of housing, because this has been an appreciating asset and the increase in

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: interest rates have actually put a situation where less than half of the country could

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: realistically afford a house. We've also talked about sometimes how some of these

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: environmental pieces of legislation like the Endangered Species Act or the Clean Water Act

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: have been used to erase and even destroy the idea of private property rights. Then we've

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about how sometimes government housing, so-called Section 8 housing and others are

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: inadequate and we haven't necessarily done all we can to improve the lives of individuals.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: If any of that sounds familiar, the way in which we often times talk about this is sort

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of in bits and pieces. But I have in front of me here a book that covers that and much

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: more in about 350 pages. It is really one of the most extensive looks at the crisis

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: of housing in America and the title of the book is Nowhere to Live, The Hidden Story

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of America's Housing Crisis. It is written by James Burling who started out really as

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: a geologist, got his master's degree in geology from Brown University, decided to go back and

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: get a law degree from the University of Arizona College of Law, had his law degree and now

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: has been working with the Pacific Legal Foundation really since 1983 and of course has worked

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: very much in this area of everything from environmental law and property rights

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to eminent domain. So James, thank you for joining us today here on Point of View.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: It's good to be with you.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's if we can kind of give people an overview because you first of all spend some time

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about zoning and then just the whole destruction of working class, the

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: issue of eminent domain. And remember when we talked about the kilo decision here

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: on Point of View, environmental laws used to essentially destroy property rights, the

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: whole issue of rent control and then all the other issues that have led to the, if

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you way, homelessness crisis. And at the end then you give us a way out. And it does

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: seem to me that this is perhaps a very extensive look at this level of the housing crisis.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I've said before, you can't solve this problem by simply saying, I know, let's

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: just give $25,000 to first time home buyers or let's just simply implement more rent

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: control or let's just build more government housing. The problem is much deeper than

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that, isn't it?

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_04]: The problem is much deeper than that. And the problem is not that government

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: hasn't tried, but unfortunately government has caused a lot of the problems we're in

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_04]: today from one failed policy after another. And the bottom line is that there has been

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_04]: a significant erosion of property rights over the last century making it much, much

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: more difficult if not impossible in some areas for people to build homes that people

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: want to live in where they want to live. So we have a whole series of government

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: problems that have just come together one after another building on top of each other,

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: limiting the supply of housing where demand is reeling the same or demand is going up.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_04]: When you have a disparity between supply and demand, what happens? Prices go up. And

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_04]: that's what we've been experiencing. Prices go up and up and up to the point that

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: housing is now, as you said at the outset, unaffordable for a substantial number of

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: American citizens.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's begin work our way through the book because there are eight sections and 26

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: chapters and we'll certainly be skimming over the surface. But I was thrilled that

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you actually started by talking about zoning because we oftentimes talk about

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: zoning in a positive way. But you remind us that there is a racist history to

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: residential zoning and that oftentimes what happened is zoning was used to

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: really keep people of color out of certain communities. And that's part of

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the history that I really appreciate you included because it's something that we

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: don't talk about very often.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. I begin my book Nowhere to Live with a story of George McMetchen. He

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: was a very successful Yale educated attorney in Baltimore, Maryland. And he

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and his schoolteacher wife decided to buy a nice home, a very nice home in a

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: nice neighborhood in Utah place Baltimore. And he bought the home, but within

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: several days local youth had taken rocks and broken pretty much every window in his

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: home. Why? Because the neighborhood was all white and George McMetchen and his

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04]: family were all black. After that, Baltimore passed the nation's first

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: zoning law, which made it illegal for a black person to buy a house and move

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_04]: into a white neighborhood under penalty of in twenty twenty four dollars, about

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_04]: three thousand dollars in fines and up to a year in jail. Now that ordinance was

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: wildly popular in the southern states and the border states between the north

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and the south, and it was passed in many places. Ultimately an ordinance like

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: that landed in Louisville, Kentucky, and the Supreme Court got a hold of it

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and the Supreme Court declared it to be unconstitutional because it was a

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: deprivation of the rights and property. But that wasn't unfortunately the end

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_04]: of exclusionary zoning. Following the racial zoning, which was struck down, we

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: saw economic zoning where large areas of cities in a country were zoned off

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: limits to multifamily housing, to affordable housing. Only large lot

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: homes were allowed, homes on large lots, and that made it unaffordable to

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: working class people. It made it unaffordable to immigrants. And the

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Supreme Court upheld that under the justification that apartments where

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_04]: immigrants live are like nuisances and they destroy otherwise nice neighborhoods.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the legacy that we have with zoning. So we think today zoning

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_04]: sounds not to preserve neighborhood character and keep things industry out

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_04]: of residential areas, but unfortunately zoning by limiting ability to build in

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_04]: so many communities to large single family homes on large lots. It basically

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_04]: excludes a substantial portion of Americans from housing. Those people that

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_04]: would otherwise live at apartments or duplexes or triplexes, the sort of

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_04]: homes that are illegal and large parts of America.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, the book is entitled nowhere to live a hidden story of America's housing

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: crisis. We're going to take a break and come back and get into some other

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: aspects of this. I think it would be eye opening, but also if you find

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself struggling with the issue of housing in your community, this might

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: be a book that you would want to read. It might be a book you want to

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: pass on to somebody that's part of a zoning board, somebody that's

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: part of a city council. And we certainly just briefly mentioned this whole

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: idea of the racist history of residential zoning. We could really spend an

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: entire hour on that, but I want to move on to the issue of eminent domain,

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a big issue and it's an issue that James Burling and other lawyers

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: have been dealing with. It's of course a case that went to the Supreme

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Court, but the impact that that has on the working class housing. We're

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: destroying property rights. We have a lot to cover. We'll do that right after

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yesterday I talked about why price controls are a bad idea, and I thought

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I might continue by looking at two policies being proposed to attract

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: young voters, student loan debt and housing prices. Let's start with a

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: simple statement about supply and demand. If you want to lower prices,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to increase supply and or decrease demand. Unfortunately, colleges

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: aren't governed by a free market of supply and demand. That is why the cost

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of tuition has risen twice the rate of inflation over the last few decades.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Demand for higher education might be going down due to one surprising

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: demographic fact. Fewer children were born during the great recession

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: years of 2008 to 2011. This will be a 15% decrease of potential students.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: However, colleges won't reduce their costs because both the federal

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: government and state governments are giving students and their parents

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: scholarships and loans. And President Biden has been canceling billions

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: of dollars in student loan debt, essentially signaling the students

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: won't have to pay back the loans they are taking out this year.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The principle of supply and demand also works in housing. When there

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: aren't many houses for sale, the price goes up. President Biden

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: has called for building 2 million housing units, and Vice President

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Kamala Harris is now calling for building 3 million units. To achieve

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: this, the Harris campaign talks about offering expanded tax credits

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to home builders. The campaign, however, also proposes a $25,000

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: subsidy for first-time home buyers. This would increase demand and not

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: bring home prices down. Giving money to students and giving money

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to home buyers seems like a good idea until you get back to basic

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: economics. Understanding supply and demand is necessary to evaluate

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: campaign promises. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: For a free booklet on a biblical view of Israel, go to

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Viewpoints.info slash Israel. Viewpoints.info slash Israel.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You're listening to Point of View, your listener supported

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Source for Truth.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In today's conversation with James Burling as we talk about

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: nowhere to live the hidden story of America's housing

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: crisis. I thought we'd get into this issue of eminent

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: domain, and that is the idea that obviously sometimes we need to

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: have the government take over some land to create a road or

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever it might be. But they are to give just compensation.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But you also point out that now the rise and the overuse of

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: eminent domain has had an impact on housing. And you tell

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the story of Chavez Ravine, which today, of course, is

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: where Dodger Stadium is, but perhaps the most famous one

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: comes not from California, but comes from Connecticut, New

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: London, Connecticut. And Suzette Kelo and the famous, or should

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I say infamous Supreme Court decision on Kelo. Explain that

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: if you might. Eminent domain sometimes is necessary, but it

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: has been overused and I think abused. And that's affected

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: housing as well, hasn't it?

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. Eminent domain is supposed to be the sort of

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_04]: power of last resort if government needs to do a project

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_04]: such as a road or build a military base or a school. But what's

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_04]: happened is that the constitutional requirement,

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that eminent domain require the taking of property for public

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_04]: use has been changed by the Supreme Court from public to

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_04]: anything in the public interest. And what is in the

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04]: public interest is whatever is in the eyes of the political

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_04]: powers that be in a state or in a local city or county. And so we

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_04]: have example after example where entire neighborhoods have been

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_04]: destroyed in order to make way for some economic project. And my

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_04]: book I start with Chavez Ravine, where in 1959, Aurora Vargas, who

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04]: was a World War Two widow, was literally carried out of her

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: home by sheriff's deputies from LA. As soon as she was taken

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: out and the rest of her family was escorted out of her home, the

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: bulldozers were literally right there next to her property. They

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_04]: were turned on fired up and they knocked down her property. She

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_04]: lived in a very vibrant Mexican American community in Los

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Angeles. Originally, the plan was to tear down the homes and

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_04]: build some kind of housing project. But that housing

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_04]: project never materialized. Instead, the project was being

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_04]: used for Dodger Stadium. Now Dodger Stadium was one of the more

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_04]: successful, so to speak uses of eminent domain because the Dodgers

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_04]: remain some years a good ball team. But you know that aside, we

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_04]: have example after example, Detroit, there's a neighborhood

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: called Poletown, a working class neighborhood mixed

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_04]: ethnicity. It was destroyed to make way for a General Motors

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_04]: plant. A couple decades later, General Motors abandoned the

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_04]: plant. The houses are gone, the neighborhood is gone,

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and the industry is gone. You saw the same thing in the Kilo

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_04]: case that you mentioned in Connecticut. A neighborhood was

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_04]: destroyed to make way for Pfizer pharmaceutical, Pfizer

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_04]: left after a dozen or so years. So we have had a tremendous

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: amount of urban ethnic neighborhoods, working class

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_04]: neighborhoods being destroyed for redevelopment projects

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that have done virtually nothing for the communities that

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_04]: were destroyed. And oftentimes nothing economically either.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, that whole section is helpful and can maybe some

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: people are familiar with the case with Pfizer in New London,

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but you give many others. But I thought we keep moving

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because another section you have is using environmental laws

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to destroy property rights and even housing operations. And

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you have for example, the Endangered Species Act. And

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of course, we broadcast all over the country, but our

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: people in Tennessee probably remember the snail darter

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: case, although I suspect anybody might remember that one or

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: many others the spotted owl situation in the Pacific Northwest

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: for listeners up there in California and Oregon or

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: places like that, or a variety of others. And then of

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: course you have the Clean Water Act, which we talked about

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the other day with one of our guests. All you have to

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: do is have a pond actually continue for a longer period

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of time and all of a sudden the EPA will say, well, that's a

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: navigable water. And thus we can really shut down your private

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: property rights. So what have you found in this area? Because

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you've done some litigation in that area as

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: well.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. I mean, it's mentioned the Clean Water Act.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04]: We represented a couple that were trying to build a modest

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_04]: three bedroom two bath home in Priest Lake, Idaho. They were

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_04]: told to stop by the EPA because there were so called

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_04]: wetlands on the property. It took nearly two decades to go

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_04]: through the litigation process. We took two trips to the

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Supreme Court of Pacific Legal Foundation with a couple of

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Mike and Chantel's sack at trying to build this home.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Eventually, we won both cases at the Supreme Court where the

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Supreme Court said no, this wetland is not subject to

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: federal jurisdiction. That freed up millions of acres

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that otherwise not have been built upon. But we have

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: so many rules and regulations like this that take vast

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_04]: amounts of acreage off the property. And each little

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_04]: endangered species habitat combined with a little bit of

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_04]: wetland here, a little bit of wetland there, these combined

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: to make hundreds of millions of acres off limits or

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: incredibly difficult to build upon in this country. And

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: we're not able to build the homes that people need to

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: to live in because of these environmental regulations

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and restrictions. I am all for protecting the

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: environment. But I'm also for putting the people in that

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_04]: environment as well and balancing the needs of people

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_04]: with the needs of nature. We can have both, but right now

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_04]: we're not doing that.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, one other example that I might use for

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: especially our California listeners in the Central Valley

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: was the Delta smelt, another fish. And it almost seemed

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like for a while that individuals, especially with the

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: EPA or with the Department of Agriculture, whatever it

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: might be, might find one particular unusual fish

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: fowl, in some cases even insect. And that was enough

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to then just close down the need for a home. And I'm

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: all as you are for environmental protection. And

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: there have certainly been some great success stories

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of various species that look like they might go

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: extinct that have been brought back from the brink

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: because of that. But when sometimes it does appear

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're picking one particular species or one

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: particular element in the environment to then close

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: down the possibility of development that would be

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: beneficial to so many Americans, I think that's

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: when people begin to react and say we've gone too

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: far. What are your thoughts?

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. I mean, it's just you can take any piece

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of land in this country and find some unique

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_04]: environmental aspect of that land and then decide,

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_04]: well, there's got to be something a unique species

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_04]: on that land. And we have to shut down the

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_04]: development. And even if you don't find it, you can

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_04]: at least allege that in the lawsuit. And one of the

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_04]: problems that I talk about in Nowhere to Live is

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_04]: the litigation abuse where people claim that

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_04]: there is an environmental issue with a particular

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_04]: piece of property, but they're doing it just to

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: keep the development away. The not in my backyard

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_04]: types and others that really care much more about

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: their own, what they have or the environment than

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_04]: they do about the people that are not able to

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: find a house to live. I think it's great to

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_04]: protect things, but we have to keep things in

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_04]: mind. We have to understand that people need a

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_04]: place to live and it's becoming so difficult

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: for young people, for working class people

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_04]: to find homes. Well, the problem is that we

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_04]: just aren't allowing the homes to be built

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: because of endangered species, because of wet

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: lands, because of open space views, because of

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_04]: agricultural preserves, because of all kinds of

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_04]: rules and regulations that have a great idea

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: in theory, but they've been abused by people

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_04]: over and over again. Well, let's see if we can

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: take a break. Let me just mention that first

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of all, we have a link to PacificLegal.org.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you'd like to know a little bit more

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: about the work that they are doing,

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: certainly you can scroll through and find out

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the stories dealing with such things

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: as property rights, equality and opportunity,

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: separation of powers and some of the Supreme

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Court cases they've been involved with. And

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: of course if you'd like to know more about this

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: book, it's been out for about two weeks

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and we have information about it on the

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: website. You can click on the button there

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a way in which you can get it

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: either in hardback or Kindle. And so we

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: come back. I want to get into some other

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: aspects of this as well. One of those is

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: rent control isn't the answer. And then

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: the whole issue of OK, let's see if we can

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: come up with some kind of affordable housing

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and how effective has that been? I think

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to find out that it's been

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: unworkable, unaffordable, unproductive

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course unconstitutional. But

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: other than that it's been great. I

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: think you can see where we're going

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: with that one. And then also what

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about this issue while we're talking

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: about the homeless crisis, homelessness

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and the fact that there has been an

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: emptying sometimes of some of the

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: individuals that have mental health

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: issues. And it's one of the reasons they

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: don't have a home because they actually

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: do need care that they're not receiving

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: because under the auspices of providing

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: them with some freedom we're putting

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: people out on the streets that are

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: dangerous either to themselves or to

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: others. And then we'll talk about,

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: OK what can we do? Are there answers? I

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: think there are. And so if you think

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that this issue of the homeless crisis

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: is intractable and cannot be solved

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not the case but I think we need

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to understand all the different

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: factors that have given us what today

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is America's housing crisis. So continue

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: your conversation with James Burling

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: right after these important messages.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Is religious freedom still a cornerstone

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: of the republic or has it effectively

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: been crushed by the forces of

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_03]: tolerance? America needs Christians to be

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: informed and as unified as possible

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[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: will continue after this. You are

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: listening to Point of View. The

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_03]: opinions expressed on Point of View

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_03]: do not necessarily reflect the views of

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: the management or staff of this

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_03]: station. And now here again is Kirby

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Anderson. Back once again as we talked

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with James Burling about his book

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: nowhere to live the hidden story of

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: America's housing crisis really kind of

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: doing a little more of a deep dive into

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: this issue and I recognize even though

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: we're trying to give you a lot of

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: content there is 26 chapters and eight

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: different sections so obviously we're

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: still skimming over some of it. We've

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about zoning we've talked

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: about eminent domain we've talked about

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: how sometimes environmental rules are

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: destroying our concept of private

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: property rights but I thought James would

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: get to another one because people say

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: well we need to have affordable housing

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so two particular sections one on the

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: issue of rent control here's a simple

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: answer that doesn't work that is well

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: if the rents are too high we'll just

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: tell people they can't raise the

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: rents so what's wrong with that I

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: think it gets back to one of my

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: commentaries on supply and demand but

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: also gets down to the idea that well if

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: prices are too high we'll have price

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: control. We know that does not work but

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: yet you give us a little bit of the

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: history of rent control and explain to

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: us why this simply does not work can

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: you help us out? Absolutely rent

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: control does not and cannot work

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_04]: because what it does is create a

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_04]: terrible disincentive for people to

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_04]: add to the housing supply so rent

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: control feels really nice if you don't

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: think about it very much always keeping

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: rent slow but it doesn't really work

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_04]: that way rent control by limiting the

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_04]: incentive to build new housing creates

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_04]: a shortage supply goes down demand

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_04]: remains the same or continues to go up

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: prices increase so while people living

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_04]: in rent control departments may benefit

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_04]: themselves individually overall the

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_04]: community experiences had higher housing

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_04]: prices every economist that what has

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: looked at rent control to any degree

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_04]: left and right would tell you rent

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_04]: control doesn't really work to keep

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: housing prices down indeed there is a

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_04]: economist who a number of years ago

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_04]: said that rent control is the most

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: effective way other than bombing in a

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_04]: war destroy a city if rent control is

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_04]: serious enough landlords will have to

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_04]: abandon their properties they cannot

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_04]: make money on properties right now

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_04]: new york city has a new rent control

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_04]: law that just supplemented the old one

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and it does and it prevents landlords

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_04]: from recouping any investments for

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_04]: repair if you have to put in a fifty

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_04]: thousand dollars for new heating system

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_04]: you can't recoup that investment and

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_04]: it goes on and on and on I talk

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: about in my book the example of St. Paul

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Minnesota yes that adopted a few

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_04]: years ago rent control of three percent

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: per year regardless of inflation there

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_04]: were housing projects in the works

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_04]: sticks and bricks were coming out of

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: the ground and when that rent control

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_04]: ordinances passed the equipment was

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04]: pulled off the workers are pulled off

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_04]: the project was stopped why because

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_04]: rent control and nobody wants to build

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_04]: housing where you're not going to be

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_04]: able to recoup the investment and

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_04]: city after city where rent control has

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_04]: been tried it hasn't worked we did a

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_04]: study and this follows other economic

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_04]: studies comparing rent control cities

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_04]: with adjacent non-rent controlled

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_04]: cities rent control supposed to help

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_04]: the poor the elderly working class

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_04]: people but what we found in our study

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_04]: that in every instance people living

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in rent controlled units in the rent

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_04]: controlled cities were whiter or

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_04]: richer or better educated were more

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_04]: within the demographic of being young

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and working than in the non-rent

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_04]: controlled cities why because people

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: with greater stability in their lives

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_04]: i.e. those richer and whiter and

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_04]: longer-term jobs are able to stay in one

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_04]: place longer to take advantage of rent

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_04]: control rent control has been a

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_04]: disaster where it's been tried and

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_04]: it's going to continue to be a

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: disaster wherever it's tried in the

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_04]: future including those proposals to

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_04]: make it nationwide I might just

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: mention too that you have a number

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of pictures and I've often cited a

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: picture is worth a thousand words

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when these are such horrible

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: pictures you got a picture of a

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: partially demolished tower and cabrini

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: cabrini green that's up there in

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Chicago you show of course what the

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: land that was supposed to be used by

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Pfizer they're a new London, Connecticut

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but the one that goes with your one

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: on rent control you just a minute ago

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: said it sort of looks like something

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that had been bombed and here is a

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: picture that you have from the

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: South Bronx where there is rent control

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and the picture literally looks like a

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: picture that you see from a war torn

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: region of the world so again sometimes

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: even as you give us facts figures

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: pictures and the rest those pictures

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes illustrate this is what it

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: looks like when you follow this way

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: what about the other issue though

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because some people say okay maybe

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: affordable housing through rent control

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't work but how about affordable

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: housing mandates that is again something

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that you've dealt with in the courts

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and it is again an attempt to in some

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: respects use if you will almost

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: extortion to bring about some kind of

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: solution that actually is unworkable

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and as you point out unconstitutional

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: the idea behind affordable housing

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_04]: mandates is that you take a developer

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_04]: somebody who's building maybe 10 units

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_04]: or 20 units of an apartment building

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_04]: or homes in the subdivision and some

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_04]: communities now require that developer to

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_04]: set aside 10 15 20 percent of the units

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_04]: oftentimes equal in quality within the

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_04]: development and set that aside for

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_04]: affordable or subsidized low-income

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_04]: housing or the developer can pay a sum

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_04]: of money to do the same thing but who's

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_04]: going to pay for that does it come out

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_04]: of the developer's pocket well indirectly

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but at most definitely it comes out of

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: the pocket to the people that want to

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_04]: buy this new housing so overall the price

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_04]: of housing goes up the economists that

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_04]: have been studying this have found it

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: really doesn't seem to help the

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_04]: affordability issue it just redistributes

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_04]: money from the new home buyer to

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_04]: somebody who is not able to afford a

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_04]: new home now I have all the sympathy

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_04]: in the world for somebody who cannot

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_04]: afford to buy a new home but the

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_04]: solution is to simply allow more home

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_04]: building and not to make the housing

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_04]: that we are building more expensive for

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_04]: everybody else and that's these mandates

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_04]: do and also the idea that to get a

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_04]: permit from the government to build

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_04]: houses you have to give up this low

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_04]: income housing it is unconstitutional

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_04]: because there is no legitimate reason

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_04]: for doing this if you want to

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_04]: subsidize housing in a community then

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I suppose you could raise taxes on the

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_04]: entire community instead of having it

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_04]: a tax only on the people buying new

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: homes who don't yet live in the

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_04]: community and therefore don't vote in

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_04]: the community yet so it's a it's a

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: really in a way a craft political

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_04]: stunt to say you're doing something

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: about affordable housing but really

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_04]: making the cost even higher

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: one of your shorter chapters and it's

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: one I'll just mention before I go to

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a break is this whole idea of whether

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we should be emptying the mentally

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: ill into our streets because that

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: gets us into a conversation we've

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: had on other programs about homelessness

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of that is well documented in a

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: book by Michael Schellenberger

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: San Francisco why we're progressives

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: ruined cities but that's another issue

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and although this is just a small part

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of the housing crisis it's also part of

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: this issue of homelessness isn't it

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_04]: yes what I was an undergraduate I

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_04]: did volunteer work in a large of state

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: New York mental institution in 1976

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_04]: the patients told me one after another

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Jim I'm going to a halfway house Jim I'm

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_04]: going to a halfway house and connected

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: the Albany wherever and I'd ask each one

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_04]: of them where how long are you going

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_04]: to be there and they tell me six months

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_04]: six months six months and then I would

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: ask what happens after that they had

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_04]: no idea nobody did and we know now

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that those people that after they were

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_04]: let out of the halfway homes with the

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_04]: idea they would continue to take

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_04]: medications and would be okay ended up

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_04]: on the streets ended up in our jails

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and society has turned a tremendous

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04]: disservice to our mentally ill

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_04]: population by simply sending them out

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_04]: onto the streets in order to and the

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_04]: conservatives wanted to save money

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: liberal thought would enhance their

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_04]: dignity but it is really destroyed

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_04]: their lives and it's really a

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_04]: dereliction of our duty as people to

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_04]: take care of those people who cannot

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_04]: truly take care of themselves and I

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_04]: think the mentally ill our front and

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_04]: center of another failed government

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_04]: policy in our housing issues in our

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: housing crisis and again we'll probably

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about that in more detail later

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's one of the shorter chapters but

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll take a break when we come back

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: okay you've been hearing some of the

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: problems what are some of the solutions

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think you can already think of

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: one and that is the need for us to

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: come back to some basic private

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: property rights and so I'm certainly

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: going to ask James to talk a little

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: bit about the rise and fall and maybe

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: again the rise once again of this idea

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: of private property the whole issue of

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: eminent domain or takings what that

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: might mean and really what is the

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: future of housing in this 21st century

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: world what can we and should we be

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: doing if indeed we want to provide

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: affordable housing for individuals it

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't just a simple answer as you can

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: tell it's a complex set of reasons why

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: we have the crisis and obviously there

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: are other kinds of solutions and

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: different kinds of solutions necessary

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's all part of this book about

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: three hundred and fifty pages great

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: material on really the housing crisis

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and a way in which you can understand

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: this issue in a little bit more depth

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: eight chapter eight sections of 26

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: chapters and will continue our

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: conversation with James Burling on

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: nowhere to live right after this

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's James Burling with us as we

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about his book nowhere to live

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: if you've been listening you recognize

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that one of the biggest issues is this

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: whole area of private property so James

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: let's if we can maybe come back and you

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: course give a short history of the

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: rise and fall and hopefully the rise

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: again of private property but having

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the right private property rights does

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: solve some of the problems that you

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: address in the book doesn't it I

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_04]: think it would I mean back in the back

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_04]: a century ago if you own land you had

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_04]: the right to use that that was your

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_04]: property right you could use it to farm

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_04]: you could use it to cut trees you

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_04]: could use it to build homes if that's

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_04]: what you wanted to do but today those

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_04]: property rights have been severely

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04]: diminished because you simply can't go

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: out today and build a home or homes

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_04]: that you would like to put on the

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_04]: market for people to live in the

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: neighbors have to be part of it the

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: NIMBY's the not in my backyard people

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_04]: want to come in and prevent you from

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_04]: building those homes or the local

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: community and its environmental

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_04]: regulations that is they are your

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_04]: partners in home building if you well

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_04]: or the decision the decision is no

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04]: longer that individual is no longer

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: your individual decide how you're

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: going to use your property and that

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: diminishment in property rights has

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_04]: really caused to a loss of a lot of

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: the housing that we have today so

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_04]: what I propose is that we restore

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: these property rights let people do

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: what with their property what is ever

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: as reasonable and not allow so many

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04]: hands to be put into the you know the

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: stir of the pot to make it almost

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: impossible to build new homes we are

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_04]: getting some of that back some of the

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_04]: courts are beginning to recognize that

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_04]: if government regulates your property

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_04]: too much that is a taking and you

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: should be compensated for it but

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_04]: the even better solution would be for

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_04]: government to get out of the way and

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_04]: allow home building to occur so people

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_04]: when build homes near where people want

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to live one of the things I appreciate

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: is that you also talk about how some of

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that is rooted in kind of political

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: philosophy which is kind of one of my

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: background areas and that if you

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: think about John Locke on the second

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: treatise of government the concept

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_01]: there is that government is not creating

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: property but government was formed to

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: protect it in other words the earth

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is the Lord's the fullness there of we

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: want to use a bible verse and so in some

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: respects when we talk about rights

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: government does not grant rights those

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: rights are inherent because we are

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: endowed by our creator with certain

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and alienable rights among these are

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: life liberty in the pursuit of

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: happiness although some said life

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: liberty and property and it does seem

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to me that if we come back to some

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of these sort of biblical principles

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of these historic principles

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that come from the enlightenment

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that would help us begin to

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: understand a little bit more about

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: property what are your thoughts

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_04]: absolutely our founding fathers were

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_04]: heavily influenced by John Locke and

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_04]: if you read the Declaration of

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Independence and you read John Locke

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_04]: second treatise you will see that

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_04]: lines are basically taken out of John

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Locke second treatise written about a

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_04]: century earlier and put into our

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Declaration of Independence the bottom

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: line is our founders recognize

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: that people do have inherent and

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_04]: alienable rights and is the role of

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04]: government to protect those rights

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: not to destroy them and the

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Declaration of Independence continued

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: that when government is the engine

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: of destruction of those rights rather

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_04]: than protecting them then that

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_04]: government is ill legitimate and it

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_04]: should be replaced so I think these

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_04]: first principles are extraordinarily

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_04]: important on to recognize the

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_04]: rights of people in their property

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_04]: that should be protected that's not

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: to say that we do not have other

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_04]: duties of course and one that I like

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_04]: to point to is you know as Jesus said

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: in Matthew quoting Ezekiel we have to

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_04]: love thy neighbor and thy neighbor is

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04]: just not the person who lives next

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_04]: to us today that looks just like us

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_04]: but our neighbor is everybody in the

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_04]: community people who would like to

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: live in our community who cannot now

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_04]: afford to and we need to make it more

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_04]: easy for people to live in the homes

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_04]: in our communities that they can afford

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and we're not doing that now but I

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_04]: think that we can move in that

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_04]: direction later as we move forward if

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_04]: we recognize a problem we can begin

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_04]: to cure it.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: One other aspect of that is that you

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: point out that some of these

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: regulations need to be reformed

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and so you know who you elect as

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: president who they put on the

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: environmental protection agency who

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: might be in the Department of

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Agriculture who is going to maybe be

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: elected to the United States Senate

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and be questioning whether or not we

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: need to rethink the environmental

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: issues like the endangered species

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: act are important but also you've

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: pointed out at the beginning the

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: issue of zoning and zoning even

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: paying attention to who is going to

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: be on your zoning board and some of

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that are also very important issues

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but just before we end let me first

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of all mention that you can perhaps

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: find this book in your local bookstore

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: but if not we have information about

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it on the website so they can get it

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: both in hardback and kindle but we

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: also I might just mention James have

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a link to the Pacific legal

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: foundation so somebody would want to

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: contact you maybe have you speak on

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: this issue maybe consult with you

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because of an issue they're dealing

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: with in their community is it possible

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: for them to contact you?

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes go on to our website

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_04]: PacificLegal.org and there is a link

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_04]: there for submitting a case if you

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: think we have a case to look at or how

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_04]: to get a hold of us so there are all

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_04]: kinds of links on PacificLegal.org

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and I recommend people go into that

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: website and see what the sort of

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_04]: things the Pacific legal foundation

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_04]: does see more information about my

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_04]: book know where to live the hidden

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_04]: story of America's housing crisis we

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_04]: also have a website for that know

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_04]: where to live.org so there are lots of

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_04]: ways of finding out about what we do

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and how we try to protect property

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_04]: rights throughout the country again

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that is PacificLegal.org we have

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that link on our website so you don't

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: even have to remember you can grab

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that a little bit later by going to

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: our website at pointofview.net but

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: James thank you for writing the

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: book thank you for giving us an

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: hour today and thank you for maybe

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: clearing up some of the issues that

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we have discussed from time to time

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't know anywhere where all

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of those issues are found in one book

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: except in your book so I appreciate you

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: writing it and joining us today here on

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_04]: point of view. It's been a pleasure

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_04]: talking to you today. Let me just

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: mention again that when we get into this

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: issue of housing whether it's

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: homelessness whether it's the need for

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: affordable housing whatever that might

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: be these are really important issues

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think as illustrated by the

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: fact that I failed to mention that

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the forward is written by US Senator

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike Lee and it isn't just one of those

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of obligatory forwards it goes on

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: for a couple pages because he recognizes

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that this is an issue as well and I

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: think what is so helpful about this

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: book is not only the facts and figures

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but the number of pictures that are

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: there because it shows you what

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: happens when a particular zoning issue

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is changed or what happens when

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: imminent domain takes place or what

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: happens when rent control is

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: implemented and you can see visually

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the impact that some of this is having

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so this is why I thought this would be

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a very helpful book for you to consider

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: of course you can find it in your

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: local bookstore you can of course go

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to Pacific legal and find out a little

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: bit more but as I mentioned 26

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: different chapters eight sections and

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we've covered everything from the

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: issue of zoning and imminent domain

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and property rights that are oftentimes

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: destroyed by I think an overzealous

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: interpretation of some of these

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: environmental laws the whole issue of

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: rent control and what that can mean

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and the fact that sometimes in an

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: effort to have affordable housing

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the mandates cause more harm than

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: good and of course even a section we

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about in terms of the

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: homelessness because of so many people

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: mentally ill being put out on the

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: streets and then finally two chapters

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: which go into some detail about how to

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: fix the hidden story of the American

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: housing crisis all part of this book

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: nowhere to live and again we would

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: encourage you to find out more on our

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: website at pointofview.net

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: click on the button so that you can

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: find out more about Pacific legal.org

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in the book nowhere to live and you've

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: been listening to point of view it

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: almost seems like we live in a

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_03]: different world from many people in

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: positions of authority they say men

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: can be women and women men people are

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_03]: prosecuted differently or not at all

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_03]: depending on their politics criminals

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03]: are more valued and rewarded than law

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_03]: abiding citizens it's so overwhelming

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_03]: so demoralizing you feel like giving

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_03]: up but we can't we shouldn't we must

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_03]: not as Winston Churchill said to

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Britain in the darkest days of

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_03]: World War two never give in never give

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_03]: in never never never never yield to

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03]: force never yield to the apparently

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_03]: overwhelming might of the enemy and

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that's what we say to you today this is

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: not a time to give in but to step up

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and join point of view in providing

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_03]: clarity in the chaos we can't do it

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_03]: alone but together with God's help we

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: will overcome the darkness invest in

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: biblical clarity today at point of view

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_03]: dot net or call one eight hundred three

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: four seven fifty one fifty one point of

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_03]: view dot net and eight hundred three

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_03]: four seven fifty one fifty one point of

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_03]: view is produced by point of view

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: ministry