Point of View August 21, 2024 – Hour 1 : I Used to Be

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everyone.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Today, we'll be talking about loss and the difficult circumstances that you might find

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself in.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You know when you suffer loss, sometimes you actually enter into this idea of used to

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: be and used to be pregnant, used to be secure, used to be sober, used to be an individual

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that thought that I was going to have a job for the rest of my life.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and we have come to realize that although these losses are different, sometimes the coping

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: mechanisms we need are important.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I recognize that the loss of a child is certainly going to affect you in a different

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: way than say a loss of a job will or perhaps infertility would affect you differently than

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: a health reversal.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are some general principles that I think are going to be very helpful to

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you which is why we are going to spend some time today talking about this book.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been out for about a year.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I Used to Be is the title of it, How to Navigate Large and Small Losses in Life and Find

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Your Path Forward.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It is written by Chuck and Ashley Elliott.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from Lee University, a master's in behavioral

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: science from Western Kentucky University and a master's in organizational leadership at

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Regent University and Ashley earned a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in mental health counseling

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: at Lee University.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck is a pastor at Bethel Church in Evansville, Indiana, Ashley a licensed counselor in

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Auxilium Psychological Services and Chuck and Ashley welcome to point of view.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Kirby thank you so much for having us.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an honor.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're looking forward to having a chat with you.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me if I can Chuck maybe talk about the fact that as a pastor you probably have a lot

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of people that come to you in terms of some kind of loss that they are dealing with and

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in some respects I'm hoping that as we go through this we can train not only other

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: pastors listening to this program or seminary students or Bible college students but just

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: generally people to understand that when you're dealing with a loss in your own

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: life in the life of your family maybe in your church community there's some very deliberate

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: steps we can take.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely being in a church whether you're a pastor or congregants you get to be with

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: people in just all kinds of different stages of life.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be the birth of a child, it could be transitioning into retirement, losing a

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: loved one so many different things that you get to be a part of when you're in

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the church and that's how God designed it but many times when somebody goes through

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: a loss they lose a loved one, they go through a job change, they maybe get fired

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: or let go, they have something major happen in their life.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: People don't always know what to say to that individual who's gone through a loss

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and unfortunately they often say nothing.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they think they have to make a comment like they're going to fix it

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like well God's got a plan or maybe God needed another angel or somebody says

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that about the loss of a child and something that just stings and what I've found is leaning

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in and not feeling like you need to fix it but you just need to be with that person

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and have a conversation.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't ignore them or ignore the pain that they're going through and that's a great

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: first step that we often see many churches, church leaders, individuals just don't take.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Ashkel, let me come to you because of course the title of the book is I Used to Be

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and one part of that is I Used to Be Expecting a Child and then you begin to talk

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: about the loss of a child, then another loss and then another and in some respects

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to have you speak to that because as people hear some of the

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: advice that you and Chuck are giving your fellow travelers you've been there.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah it was 2015, 16 and 17 we went through recurrent miscarriage

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and so year after year we kept facing loss and we definitely faced different

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_04]: experiences and different emotions.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: The first time we were in the ER and we worshiped God, the second time it was

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_04]: more shocking because we had taken a year to pray and grieve and thought no not

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: again and then that third time I mean just like a gut punch and I remember

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_04]: looking at my baby that his heart was still is like what happened to you little

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: guy and we delivered him and he was a son and held him in our arms and just

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: the devastation of how we used to be expecting.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we just even yesterday were thinking about names and all these things

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and just sometimes it's a slow fade where we realize that we're not who

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: we used to be but sometimes it is this automatic shift and it's not just the title

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: change that affects our identity in Christ or identity in our family but it

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: can really affect our ability to function and we can feel like I used to be

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: stable. I used to be whole, I used to be a lot of other things so that's part

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_04]: of the reason why we've used that title because we found that it

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_04]: resonates with people when they see the book they go whoa there's some

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: pain points there and we don't intend to hurt people but we do want them to

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: realize like there's some things that could be healed and that's what we believe

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_04]: but God's done it us and we've been able to walk with other people through

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: that process and that's what we're bringing hopefully counseling in a book

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_04]: some ministry in the book as we read this book.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just mention that we do have a link to your website we also have a

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: link to Facebook. Also have a separate connection there to your YouTube

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: videos and of course most importantly this book which has been out for

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: some time you should be able to find it in your local bookstore although since

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's been out for a while maybe you would want to provide the link or use the

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: link that we've provided to you. I used to be how to navigate large and small

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: losses in life Chuck and Ashley Elliott it is published by Revelle which is

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: a division of Baker and there are five sections seeing myself seeing my

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: world seeing my loved ones reframing grief and moving forward.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well Chuck let me get into that first section because part of it is the issue

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of grief but also one of the chapter titles is naming my grief sometimes we

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: have this free floating emotion but sometimes we need to understand what is

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly affecting us don't we? Absolutely I really like that you pointed

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that out that's one of my favorite things from the book honestly because

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: many times after somebody goes through a loss or they go through a major

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: identity change they just know that they don't feel good and Kirby you've

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: probably seen this before somebody doesn't really want to talk about the

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: thing they just want to talk about how they don't feel very good or they

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: want to disengage and actually naming what it is that you've lost or who

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it is that you've lost is so powerful. So let me give you an example you

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: can say that you're having a hard time or you're sad or you're just

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: not really feeling it but if you actually name it and say you know what I

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: really miss Gary I miss that I don't get to go to dinner with him I'm sad that

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: he's not sitting at the kitchen table when I wake up in the morning

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: actually being able to go through and name what it is or who it is and the

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: identity that you maybe had is powerful when you say well I don't feel

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like I have much purpose now but what if you said I really missed that I

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: have a job had a job I missed that I don't have some place to go in the morning

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and people know my name that's a different thing then you're getting to

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what actually hurts and you can do something with that you can say okay I

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: need to have community I need to re-engage I need to do some things not

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that it replaces the memory of a Gary that you've lost or your job but

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it helps you to recognize this is specifically where I'm hurting and

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: when you do that we find that in our coaching and counseling

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where we often start when we think about how are we going to navigate this

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and how are we going to continue to build. Yeah exposes an unmet need and when we

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_04]: know that unmet need then we can speak the Lord, speak counsel to how to meet that need in a healthier way.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds very good we're gonna take a break and we're gonna continue our

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: conversation with Chuck and Ashley Elliott. I used to be it is published by

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Ravel and we will be back right after this. This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: A few weeks ago Donald Trump argued that we are closer to World War 3 than we have been in decades.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that merely campaign hyperbole or an honest assessment of reality? Global

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: conflicts seem inevitable no matter who is elected president. The commission on the

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: national defense strategy has just issued a 114 page report. The commission was created by

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Congress in 2022 and began its deliberations in April 2023. It is co-chaired by former

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Democratic Congresswoman Jane Harman and by Eric Edelman a top Pentagon official during George W.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Bush's administration. Here are a few of its conclusions. The threats the United States faces

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: are the most serious and most challenging the nation has encountered since 1945 and include

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the potential for near-term major war. China and Russia are major powers that seek to

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: undermine U.S. influence. China is outpacing the United States and has largely negated

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the U.S. military advantage in the western Pacific through two decades of focused military investment.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And China and Russia's No Limits Partnership formed in February 2022 just days before Russia's

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: invasion of Ukraine has only deepened and broadened to include a military and economic

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: partnership with Iran and North Korea each of which presents its own significant threat to U.S.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: interests. This new alignment of nations opposed to U.S. interest creates a real risk if not

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: a likelihood that conflict anywhere could become a multi-theater or global war. This report is

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: a reminder that we live in a dangerous world and that a global war is possible who we elect

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: as the next commander-in-chief will face some significant challenges. I'm Kirby Anderson

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's my point of view. For a free booklet on a biblical view of anti-Semitism go to

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: viewpoints.info slash anti-Semitism viewpoints dot info slash anti-Semitism you're listening to

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: point of view your listener supported source for truth continue conversation day with Chuck and

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Ashley Elliott I used to be is the book and how to navigate large and small losses in life

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and find your path forward and actually we were talking about this idea of grief and I

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: think it also ties into something you talk about early on and that is this idea of unmet

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: expectations you know their individuals maybe the men say well I was hoping I might have made a

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: baseball team in college or I might have been able to make the basketball team or I was hoping I would

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: be at this level in my career at the age of 30 for women it might be I wanted to pursue a

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: career but also want to be a mom the unmet expectation of I thought I'd be a mom by now

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and I've had three miscarriages it seems to me that that's another part of really understanding

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: who you are and why you're feeling that grief don't you think yes definitely I think that

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: whenever we go through these different situations where we have unmet expectations we can shift

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: either to a positive space or a negative space and oftentimes if unmet expectations lead us to be

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_04]: stuck in a negative space so we call this process switch theory like we can switch back and forth

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_04]: between a positive and negative space and our goal is to help people become intimately familiar

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_04]: with their negative space and what it looks like and even their positive space but often that's

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_04]: not as problematic that's not what people come to us for help yeah but some people even they

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04]: just want to live up in the clouds and you know abandon reality or sweep things under rugs

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's just that's their coping so we teach people like examine your coping mechanisms what is

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: your what are your good habits what are your negative habits and all of that is kind of

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_04]: surrounding around those unmet expectations or the overall expectations and then the

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_04]: negative space tends to come when those expectations are unmet yeah absolutely sometimes

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: if people come to us and they feel as if they're unhappy or they're disengaged and

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: other problematic symptoms are popping up if you trace it back there's an unmet expectation

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so if you have conflict in your marriage it could be because you haven't communicated an unmet

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: expectation you thought you were going to spend more quality time together and then you

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't communicate the expectation maybe you did didn't and then when that's not met you become

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: disengaged but the good thing is is we've seen it time and time again that people can get back

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to a positive space and re-engage when they communicate from what it is that they wanted

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: well what's your expectation well i want to be close to you want to spend time with you

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: only have dates nights with you although you might be acting like a jerk at the time you

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: want to be with your partner so we'll said let me just mention that there are places

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where people can fill things out for example you have positive coping mechanisms negative

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: coping mechanisms and positive ones are allowing yourself to feel community giving back

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: negative or sleeping for days self-medication isolation denial whatever and there's a place

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: for you to fill it out and that's in chapter three but if i might jump ahead for just a second since

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you both mentioned this some of that gets to in chapter seven the defense mechanisms some

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: have grown up in households uh for example where um denial is not just a river in egypt you

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: know denial exists and you have repression you have displacements you have rationalization

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's one of the things that help you actually deal with that particular disaster

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_04]: that lost that pain isn't it yeah definitely a coping mechanism but learning you know just that

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_04]: awareness i am doing this i am in denial okay well there's a good reason we don't do things for

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_04]: bad reasons we rationalize because we want to feel better we are in denial because it's painful

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: to look at the truth and so we know that the bible is true god promises are true and so we know

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_04]: we don't have to lie we don't have to hide things we can speak to lord to help us you know as we

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_04]: start to gain insight my lord help me know what to do next because it's painful to feel these

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: feelings but we know it's dysfunctional to live and you know allow our defense mechanisms

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to rule us and that's one of the freeing things that we see when we get to work with

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: couples and individuals is when you help them to not just feel bad about themselves for what

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they're doing but understanding they're doing it because they want to feel better and they're

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to get back something that could even be virtuous so we have three sons they're 14 12

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and six years old and there could be a time that possibly maybe other people experience this

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: as well there's a little bit of conflict between a couple of the boys and they have

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a 14 year old wants to punch the 12 year old we've never had any of that in any of our other

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: families never have as i think about some of the marks on the wall okay but imagine that the 14

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: year old wants to hit the 12 year old because he's offended why does he do that well it's

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: bad to punch somebody okay right but it's because he feels hurt he feels as if something he

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: cares about has been violated so that means my older one wants to protect something that he thinks

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: is right he wants to protect the truth he wants to protect his things he wants to value something

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that is noble underneath it is the methodology of punching your brother correct absolutely not

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but focusing on what is it you were trying to protect a preserve and what do you care about

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that was violated that's so much more empowering and that's something that we can work with

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we look and see okay how are we coping with the unmet expectation of your brother when he

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_04]: takes your things and that goes back to those unmet needs and then and my expectations you know that

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_04]: we got to understand where our needs are unmet and how do we meet them you know because with

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: our kids of course they're going to do two things make mistakes but we want to meet the

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_04]: need and when we do we find that that negative behavior lightens up and we see the same thing

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_04]: especially with our couple to couple coaching that we do sure we see that as they just talk

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_04]: about their feelings and slow down a little bit they start to find hope again and that's where

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_04]: it's so rewarding to see people find hope when they thought that it was lost and this happens

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_04]: you know if somebody's gone through you know a big grief that they've lost the loved one due

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_04]: to death or divorce and it can happen in a lot of different contexts as well might just mention

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the individuals we have on the program with some regularity is Dr. Gregory Jants

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and he says without properly managing our hurt and disappointment our emotions can take us down a

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: path of even greater pain Chuck and Ashley because of their own deep pain and loss offer a plan to

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: push through fear and restore and rebuild our emotional health it can be done and there's

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a plan of hope in these pages and Chuck you mentioned something in passing I thought would

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: camp out on for just a minute and that is when you counsel couples now there's some people

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: listening right now that said hmm I'd really like to spend some time with the two of you and

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: see if you could help us out but I don't live in Evansville Indiana but if you go to the website

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: which we have Chuck and Ashley dot com there's a button to actually see coaching availability

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: online so it seems to me that there could be an opportunity for people either to interact with

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you online or especially since the book is out maybe even having you come and do a seminar

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: at their church or something like that so talk about what would be available to some of our listeners

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: if this book has already and this conversation already piqued their interest yeah absolutely

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you so much Ashley and I see people all around the country for coaching virtually so

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll do a couple to couple coaching virtually and if you don't live in our area that is okay

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a high percentage of what we do is that but we also do marriage workshops and

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: marriage intensives and we love doing that we've gone into churches all around and do Friday night

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Saturday all long all day long seminars speaking on lots of different topics really focused on

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: marriage and relationships but on grief as well so that's something that we love to engage in

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah we love to help people you know invest in their own marriage and speaking the words we

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_04]: call spiritual intimacy like people often don't feel comfortable praying together it's embarrassing

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: or it makes them nervous so just some of these simple conversations it's asking

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_04]: couples to have those conversations and sometimes it is around grief that the couples

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: haven't processed the grief or maybe the woman is frustrated the husband because he seems to be

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_04]: fine and that's just the way he coats so helping people to create a space where they can talk

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_04]: about these deeper feelings that oftentimes we just barrel through instead of taking the time

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to deal with and people can reach out to either one of us but you can find our contact

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: information at chuckinashley.com and talk about what would be a good fit whether that sessions

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: times conferences speaking engagements all of those things we we welcome the conversation

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and check the box is part of men's coaching program too that's another off yeah sounds good

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: again we have a link to chuckinashley.com you can go there directly or of course we have it

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: available on our website at pointofview.net there's a button there for coaching availability

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: there's also one in which you might want to receive their monthly relationship resources you

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: can give your email and follow up with that but let's take a break and when we come back

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: we've been talking about grief but let's get into it a little more detail first of all

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the permission to allow ourselves to grieve how grief impacts an intimate relationship

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and what that means and then a whole section which we'll get to hopefully before the end

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of the hour on reframing grief seeing grief from a new perspective and how that I think

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is going to be really helpful as well and if you are right now in the midst of suffering some kind

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of pain or loss or discouragement I hope you'll stay with us but even if you say well I'm not

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily dealing with that at the moment you know people that are and so there's an

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity first of all for you maybe to pass this information on to them because of our

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: link to the book and other resources you also click on that button that says watch or listen

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you could send a podcast of this and maybe they would want to find out about some of this but

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're not actually at the moment dealing with loss I'll give you a prediction someday very soon

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you will be and so this is why I think this is so important I'm going to take a break and

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: continue our conversation with Chuck and Ashley Elliott right after this the bible tells us

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: not to worry and yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: thankfully the bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry god gives us a next step

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: he says we need to pray but sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult and that

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: is why point of view has relaunched our pray for america movement a series of weekly emails to

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: guide you in prayer for our nation each week you'll receive a brief update about a current issue

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[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: banner let's pray together for god to make a difference in america point of view will continue

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: at you are listening to point of view

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the opinions expressed on point of view do not necessarily reflect the views of the management

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or staff of this station and now here again is kirby anderson the privilege to have with us

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: chuck and ashley elliott as we talk about their book i used to be how to navigate large and small

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: losses in life and find your path forward and i thought ashley for just a minute we might

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: just talk about this idea of grief uh first of all maybe give yourself permission to grieve

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: even permission to be angry with god or to be frustrated or confused but that is in a blanket

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: revision because sometimes you say there are times when you shouldn't give yourself permission

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to grieve so help us through this because we talk about this idea of processing grief or

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: managing grief but sometimes the biggest problem is people just think it's somehow

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: unspiritual to even feel grief what are your thoughts yeah i think people oftentimes will

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_04]: not give themselves permission to agree like oh i should be strong or i should be over this by

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_04]: now i talked to someone this week that like it's been two years i probably should be better by

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_04]: now and we believe it's not time that yields us what you do at the time so if you spend your

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_04]: time burying it not giving yourself permission to grieve you're probably going to feel stuck

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and so if you feel stuck that's okay that can be normal even if you've been trying to face it

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_04]: but giving yourself space to look at what you're trying to do with it so that piece of like

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_04]: we don't want to give people permission to do anything you know we don't want to

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: sin because of it and so if we find ourselves continually feeling tempted to like

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: end our lives for example or just isolate and never be around people we want to look deeper

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and get support and get help but we want to give people permission to look grief directly in the

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: face and when we say give ourselves permission to grieve sometimes we'll ask people when they

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: say well i should be over this by now like says who yeah who told you great question over this

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah who is this just something in your head that you feel like well i feel like

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: honest with people i'm going to make them sad if i'm around them too much okay like well what does

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that mean you don't even know that that's true to start off with but there's so much thinking

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that we help people to break down and get through because they feel these pressures that they have

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: put on themselves or as they have fabricated in their mind that other people have this pressure

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: on them or societal norms or whatever it might be and especially in our western culture

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: people have a very different viewpoint on what it means to grieve it's like all right suck it up

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: he took two days off he went to the funeral get back to work yeah and in our faith i think it can

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_04]: be really hard for people you know christians the culture you like oh just we want to put a

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: christian bumper sticker on it you're like oh our better glad they're in a better place and

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: which is just realizing sometimes that really hurts the person who's grieving and they might

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_04]: feel like they're not spiritual enough because those things don't help they actually make them

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_04]: angry and so we kind of normalize it's okay if you feel angry if somebody says something that

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: honestly is kind of dumb or theologically off in those moments but we can give ourselves permission

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_04]: to look at those things to bring that into it and even if ultimately the person is very angry at

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_04]: god sleeping it under a rug does not help heal that relationship and so we want to

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: help people bring God into those negative spaces because just like adam and eve when they sit in

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_04]: the garden they hid they didn't feel probably worthy of god's presence and so i think that we're still

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_04]: facing that as humans that we we still have the tendency to hide when we feel unworthy or if we

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_04]: just feel upset and we think that we're supposed to have it all together and so we want to help

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_04]: people feel like it's okay to approach the lord and even if it is telling him that we're upset

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things i thought we might focus on since you're talking about avoiding

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you have a section there about avoidant behavior and actually when your grandfather was alive

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you would oftentimes go to the local burger and shake shack and the movies and things of that

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: nature when he passed away you didn't want to go to the movies or the restaurant for a while

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: which is understandable but there is a sense in which sometimes we hide out and since you talk

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_04]: about that in the book can you explain that yeah i think that you giving yourself space to

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_04]: heal and say okay i'm not going to go there for a little while is good but then whenever we

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: find that we have 10 places that we avoid and we don't want to go and we get angry if somebody

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_04]: invites us or some of that that is an indicator that maybe that's become a negative coping and so

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_04]: for a little while right undefined we don't give an exact time but if there are some extreme

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_04]: pain points that we feel we just want to give people that that nudge to say okay what what else

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: is underneath the surface what happens if you go and and as we've found like we've healed and when

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_04]: other people heal they tend to come to a place where they would maybe want to go and so there was

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_04]: a time with me and my mom we went back to that that shake shack and and we had a great time and it

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_04]: was actually probably tears at some point but though the server was someone who had served my

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_04]: grandfather and so it just was a poignant moment that we were like me and we could have missed

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_04]: out on just this this little conversation that we had and a moment where we remembered remembered him

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and I know for me I want to be remembered when I pass I pass away I don't want to be swept under a rug

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_04]: or you know compartmentalized and tried to be avoided and so we want to just get people placed

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_04]: to do that and so those places can become less of a trigger when we address them, praise their

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: own talk through them whatever it is and we're always practicing how we handle things mentally

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and relationally we find that if people through grief if they continue to compartmentalize and think that

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: they can hide certain parts of their life and say well I just don't drive past that restaurant well

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't talk about that well I don't use that type of condiment anymore in our house because it

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: reminds me of so-and-so or this person lost if they do those things they are practicing

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: shutting down parts of their mind their parts emotionally and you cannot selectively numb

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: if you think you can do that and you're still going to be engaged at work and be as good of a

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: leader if you think you're going to be able to continue to give great sermons as a pastor if

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you think that you're going to be a wife and be able to look your kids in the eye and go deep

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: with them and feel what they're feeling in the moment it's not going to happen in the same way

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: so when we talk to people about going through and working through grief it's not just for

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the purpose of feeling sad so you can feel sad not that feeling sad is wrong but what we're

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to teach people is we want you to be engaged in the rest of your life and when you

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: continue to not deal with the things that hurt in your life you're walking around on a broken

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: foot and it's not getting fixed well said well we want to talk about change and of course there

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: are so many ways in which you describe that but let's talk about the three a's aware assess

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and act because it does seem to me that in ultimately we want to process grief or handle it

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: actually come out on the other side so perhaps for just a minute Chuck you can help us understand

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: how to apply those three a's to bring about the kind of change that we really would want to achieve

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely and we see the three a's to change helping people in all kinds of areas of their

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: life whether that be they want to make a fitness change weight loss change their relationship

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: or how they're processing a loss and you already listed them out for us we appreciate that but

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: becoming aware becoming aware of what is off what needs to get changed what's the goal what is it

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that's going on and then naming it like we talk about in the book being aware that you know what

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: my relationship is not very good with my wife or my husband and our communication patterns are

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: bad and then you get into some of the other a's and what it is that you're going to do

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm going to invite Ashley to help me out and explain some of this because she does it pretty

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_04]: well as well yeah but if you take an example of someone at work you know I can't function at work

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I broke down and cried or I can't you know get promoted anymore I just am very stuffed because

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: of my grief you know that might be the thing that they're is their pain point so that's

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_04]: the aware piece and then the second one is assess and so we say what are my options I can look

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_04]: for a different job but wait my grief is going to go with me we want people to be creative and

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_04]: thinking of the solutions that you're going to assess to go what have I tried what could I try in

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: the future and when we're looking at what we've tried okay well I've tried to deal with grief on

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_04]: my own I tried reading a book all right I need to try something else I need to maybe get a counselor

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: talk to a pastor talk to my spouse or friend but but we're helping them to brainstorm

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: assessing what their options are you're thinking of all kinds of options things you tried

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: before things you could try in the future and then you act that's the third day of the three

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: days to change you pick one and you try it and something that we do and the people we work with

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: is we are hope dealers so when that first thing that you tried doesn't work it is our job to be

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: hopeful and motivational that you know what we're going to try another one we're going to go back

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to that list of things that you came up with it in the assess stage and we're going to try

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: another one okay we're finding things that don't work but the option of just staying the same and

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: not trying to work on this thing that you become aware of is just not viable and we're not going

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to do that so you become aware you assess come up with your options what's worked what hasn't

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: worked and then you pick one and you keep on doing it and people do find change again we're

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: going to take a break and when we come back let me just mention that's just one there's also

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: halt hungry angry lonely tired and some warnings there and also a section when we talk about how

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: this whole idea of grief impacts an intimate relationship and again another one of those

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: charts that you can fill out on mental stability on one side and mental instability on the other

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: difference between eating healthy foods and overeating or uh under eating sleeping eight

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: hours oversleeping or under sleeping and all the rest when we come back i do want to at least

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: focus some time and attention on a very specific section of chapters on reframing grief if indeed

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to move forward what does that look like and how can we reframe grief it is all part

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of the book i used to be how to navigate large and small losses in life and find your path

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: forward we'll continue our conversation with chuck and ashley elliot right after this you're

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: listening to point of view your listener supported source for truth back once again let's look at

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: continue our conversation for a few more minutes i used to be chuck and ashley elliot and we've

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: been talking about of course the issue of loss and how to navigate that we've talked about

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: grief and ashley i thought we might get into this because one of the issues is reframing

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: your grief and that means reframing your relationships and you talk about the fact

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that a large part of your support system is chuck and i would imagine a lot of women listening

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: right now have said yes i have wanted my husband to be part of that support system but either he's

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: checked out or i'm single and he's not there and that's part of the issue here because

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: people are dealing with family friends um they're a immediate family they're extended family their

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: community their church family sometimes this idea of reframing grief is perhaps some of the hardest

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_04]: work isn't it yes reframing can feel like a slap in some sense that we're like you're just telling

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_04]: me to think different but there is a bible verse that that god says don't think like everyone else

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_04]: does and i think that that's encouraging that just because we see everyone else negative around

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: us or if we're feeling that doesn't mean that that's what we have to accept and so a first step is like

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_04]: to invite god into that process because there's like a landmine of triggers when you go through

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: a hard time you look out and you see someone who's married and that feels like a trigger and

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_04]: you're like this is the solution um but just bringing God into it saying lord i don't have

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: what i need but i do have you and so i have everything i need and then help me fill in the

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_04]: gaps with having conversations to meet those needs and i think going there and saying okay it could

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: be easy just not easy let me reframe that it could be uh more common to say i just don't have

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the people in my life who care about me but if you think about what are the elements that

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you're needing i need someone to spend time with me and i feel too embarrassed to ask someone to come

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to my house and just listen to me as i talk about the pain that i'm going through and if you think

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: about well i don't have anybody else to help pick up the kids on this day and you feel alone

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: or you realize i don't have somebody to talk to when it's about 10 30 at night or midnight

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and you feel like you're alone we've found over and over again that there are more people

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: willing to help someone than what we actually there is because curbie if i were to ask you

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: if you would help somebody who's having a hard time at 11 o'clock at night or maybe early in

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the morning and they're like you're the hope for them you'd probably say yes it's like yeah i don't

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: leave that person and abandon them but when it's reversed we'd say you know what i don't

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: think anybody wants to be there for me i don't think anybody would pick up the phone but if

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it was reversed we'd do that for somebody else and going through some of that salty thinking

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_04]: helps us to reframe things yeah i think the enemy wants us to feel

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_04]: stuck and hopeless in reminding ourselves that we can bring that into our negative spaces

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and he helps bring that to light and remind us of the truth that he really is there for us and

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that we do have family all of those things that can can be helpful and also even acknowledging

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: that all of this might say it sounds good but it's way too hard so like that can be an indication

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04]: that we're in a negative space and that's okay we just want to acknowledge it and that first step

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: is really acknowledging it before we can reframe it i think that's a good point because it is messy

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and it is hard like going through this just because we wrote a book on it and just because

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we've been with it at a difficult time doesn't mean it's easy just because ash is a licensed

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: counselor and we've been doing this for years and years doesn't mean that oh we don't have

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: problems no sometimes we just realize it stinks it hurts i don't want it to be this way god i feel

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: like i'm trying to talk to you and i don't feel like you're answering me and i want to shorten that

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04]: length in time before i bring god into my space absolutely i mean i haven't had a client one time

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_04]: i'm not going to pray today maybe tomorrow i was like she's at least aware that she's not

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_04]: but i feel like it has been a big um progress step for me to be able to say

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_04]: i pretty much pray pretty quickly after even a negative experience and so it's harder

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_04]: some days than others and so like you said check we're not perfect and we we still struggle in it but

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_04]: the part of that can be helpful and freeing so as people are listening you know know that you're

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_04]: not alone if you wrestle with that check i want to really since you were talking about people

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that might be influential talk about your friend larry diagnosed with cancer and then of course

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: dies and it's tempting to say well i won't think about those individuals because it's so painful

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that i no longer have larry who you say was a mentor and an influential leader in your life

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but we don't have to live that way as i think we can have positive sometimes even negative

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: remembrances of a person that has passed on and i can't think of anybody in our listening

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: audience that probably hasn't lost a loved one and wonders how do i deal with that

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah absolutely we have different things around our house and in our offices that help us to

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: process and remember the people that we loved and that we've lost maybe just in some bite-sized

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: pieces so it was just a couple weeks ago i did the funeral of a friend of mine and i'd known her

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for years and it was hard it was really hard it was one of the most difficult funerals that

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: i've done and i took her obituary and the paper that the funeral home gives you and i put it in a

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: place right next to where i keep larry's and it's the note from the notes from the sermon that i

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: preached at larry's funeral and it's right next to a card that says a plus on it after one of the

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: times that i preached and larry heard me preach and it's hard even right now for me to communicate

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: those things but i don't want to be shut off from it i don't want to be shut off from

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: connections and having a mentor again in my life or me being a mentor for somebody else

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: because i've shut down something that was so meaningful meaningful and beautiful in my life

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's ways we can do that i also have other things that are on our front porch a wooden star

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that one of our friends gave us and she passed away from cancer as well and i don't do this to

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: try to make myself sad as i'm walking through the house if people listening to this right now

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: think that i'm crazy for doing it but these are small pieces of me remembering the people that

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: i've loved and that i care about and i want to tell my sons about larry and what if i shut down

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: my feelings of grief and sadness about my loss of larry and my sons didn't receive a blessing

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this is part of the legacy that we want to leave and we think about okay what is it that i

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: loved about this i love it when people invest in other people i love it when somebody

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: feels seen i love it when somebody's passionate about evangelism those are the things i remember

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: about him and wouldn't it be sad if i didn't give those things to my kids again the book is

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: entitled i used to be how to navigate large and small losses in life and find your path forward

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we also have a link to chuck and ashley.com there's a button there that you can find out a

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit more about coaching availability if you want both a man and a woman's perspective

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: willing to put in some work that is something i might point you to also i have a link to their

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: youtube channel if you'd like to watch them in action and so you can go to youtube and find that

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but we have all those links available at the website and so chuck and ashley thank you first

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of all for writing the book thank you for giving us an hour today and i suspect there'll be a

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: number of people that will want to contact you in the future. Well thanks so much for having us

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Kirby appreciate your work and for having us today. No this has been really good i appreciate the

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: care and attention that you gave to the topic and really enjoyable thank you for your interview.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just before we wind down here mention again the book is entitled i used to be how

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to navigate large and small losses in life and find your path forward because we really

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: recognize that you're probably some time or another have faced loss or disappointment

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and you've really entered into this realm of used to be used to be married used to be employed

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: used to be pregnant used to be a son or daughter or whatever it might be in which you are struggling

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: with some issue and there is a tendency sometimes to get stuck and so because of the work that

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they have done and also because of the recommendation of individual we've had on this program many

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: times before dr. Gregory jance we thought that you would certainly benefit from this book it's been

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: out for a while you might be able to find it in your local bookstore but if not of course we give

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you the links necessary to a contact them and it is all available at our website which is point

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of view so go there if you'd like to listen to it again click on that button that says watch

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: or listen and you've been listening to point of view in 19th century london two towering

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: historical figures did battle not with guns and bombs but words and ideas london was home to carl

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: marx the father of communism and legendary baptist preacher charles spurgen london was in many ways

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: the center of the world economically militarily and intellectually marx sought to destroy religion

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the family and everything the bible supports spurgen stood against him warning of socialism's

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: dangers spurgen understood christianity is not just religious truth it is truth for all of life

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today get the light you

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox when you sign up for the view

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: points commentary at point of view dot net slash sign up every weekday in less than two minutes

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time it's free

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[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: point of view will continue after