Point of View April 28, 2026: The Round Table

[00:00:04] Across America Live, this is Point of View. And now, Liberty McArtor. Thanks for joining us on the Round Table today. A lot to discuss, including how on earth do we unnormalize the political violence that is unfortunately starting to seem so common in our culture.

[00:00:32] In this first hour, we'll also go on to talk about a generation that would rather live in the past and it may not be the generation that you expect. And we have an important piece by co-host today, Petrina Mosley on justice for victims of sexual assault in the United States. And it is the tail end of sexual assault awareness month. So that's going to be an important conversation to have. And of course, with me on the line today, Petrina, thanks so much for joining us on the Point of View Round Table. Yeah, happy to be here. Thank you, Liberty.

[00:01:02] Yes, thank you for being here and all of your insight and moral clarity. As always, I look forward to getting your comments and Richard, yours as well. It's great to have you back on the Round Table today. Thank you. Always good to be on with you guys. So let's go ahead and talk about something that happened over the weekend. I think everybody knows what we're discussing, and that was the attempted assassination and shooting on Saturday at the White House Correspondents Center, which is an annual event.

[00:01:30] Kerby talked about that yesterday, kind of went into some of the history of it. Point of View has had members there in the past. And so this was a really jarring event in one sense, as it always is when you see this kind of violence on display. And just to reiterate for anyone who may not be up with the news, nobody was shot. Thankfully, even the attempted assassin was apprehended. And so there was no one harmed.

[00:01:57] Trump and the administration officials were the intended target, according to his manifesto. And normally I don't like to give any airtime to shooters or attempted shooters and don't even like to say their name. But I do have an article up on pointofview.net from the Free Press that discusses the attempted shooter because I am afraid that it is part of a larger trend, Richard.

[00:02:22] Unlike many people in the past who have perpetrated mass shootings or other acts of violence, public violence, political violence, this young man, his name was Cole Allen, 31 years old from California, graduate of Caltech, seemingly pretty successful. He tutored high schoolers. He claimed to be a Christian. And he doesn't seem like the fringe lunatic that you often expect to try to commit this kind of thing.

[00:02:51] And this comes at the same time as surveys that show 40 percent of Gen Z, for instance, supports the murder that we saw fairly recently of the United Health Care CEO, Brian Thompson. So I'm wondering, is the fact that he seems normal part of a trend that we're seeing where political violence is just becoming normalized?

[00:03:18] Yeah, I think to some extent we are seeing that as the left goes farther left. Again, you know, being the history guy loves to talk about history. I will have to say that history is often cyclical. And you see times throughout our own country's history where violence was normalized to some degree by radical groups. This was an attempted assassination on a president. We've had four presidents assassinated.

[00:03:46] And it was interesting. As I read this article, it had me thinking of the profile of the men who have killed our presidents. You think about John Wilkes Booth, who was a famous actor who killed Lincoln because he was a Confederate sympathizer. There was an anarchist who killed William McKinley.

[00:04:06] So there you have a radical ideology, a very clear cut situation where somebody who had kind of radical utopian ideas felt that by killing McKinley, he could tear down the whole oppressive system. Lee Harvey Oswald, the famous assassin, some would say alleged assassin of President Kennedy. He was a communist and his own brother thinks that he killed the president because he wanted to be famous. He was a contrarian. He wanted to be famous.

[00:04:37] There's also President Garfield, who was killed by someone who was a disgruntled office seeker who thought that Garfield owed his election to him. So when he was disappointed to not get a job, he ended up killing Garfield. And I think in all of these, you see an element of narcissism. You see individuals who believe that they can change the system, they can change the world or do some great historical deed.

[00:05:06] John Wilkes Booth thought he could revive the Southern cause by killing Lincoln. And so I think it's very unhealthy when you have people have these kind of radical ideologies that give them this Messiah complex that by one stroke of, you know, violence that they could change the world in their view for the better. Yeah, I always appreciate your historical perspective, Richard, because it does give us context.

[00:05:34] And that is so important to really understand reality and truth. And Petrina, I think maybe we have been privileged more recently. And we are privileged as a nation, despite the nation's flaws, to have a nation that is largely built on a Judeo-Christian worldview. And yet I think that has maybe lulled us into a false sense of, you know, what human nature really is.

[00:05:59] We tend to say people who murder and do this kind of thing, they're animals, they're not human. But actually they are human. And as Richard was just saying, like, this is where humanity can go. And it doesn't even take someone being what we would consider insane. No, it doesn't always look the same. It doesn't always look like someone who needs to be put in a padded room.

[00:06:24] And, I mean, this is where we really have to understand the spiritual nature, the spiritual laws that are at play here in the physical. And one of the verses that comes to mind is Proverbs 28, 10, where it says, those who lead good people along an evil path will fall into their own trap.

[00:06:46] And I think this example really illustrates this point is that you do have this harsh, leftist, godless rhetoric that has been taking over so much of our culture that it can literally brainwash a person. Because this is the information that they're taking in. I mean, it also goes to another Proverbs, you know, Proverbs 4, 23. You know, your heart guards the course of your life. Whatever you let into your heart, it determines the course of your life.

[00:07:13] And so we have this horrible, horrible rhetoric that is godless and humanistic. And you can't expect not to have bad things happen. And so when you look at the situation, it's kind of a result of the evil behavior. People who are in positions of leadership in the media and political parties and influencers, no one is spewing out hateful rhetoric. And now it's turning against them. It's putting them in danger. And this is what happens. Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:43] I'm glad that you noted that hypocrisy there. And this is another article from the Free Press, actually, that I didn't have a chance to post. But they, the editors of the Free Press say it is impossible not to see this weekend's thwarted attack in the context of our increasingly upside down culture, one in which political speech is derided as violence and political violence is tolerated, excused and even celebrated.

[00:08:06] And as you know, Petrina, often this is by members of the mainstream media as well or giving a platform to those who are saying these kinds of things. So, again, as we so far, there's no evidence that there was some sort of psychotic break or, you know, insane problem here with the person who tried to assassinate the president over the weekend.

[00:08:31] But that is perhaps even scarier because it shows that there is an evil worldview that justifies violence. We're going to talk more about that and other issues when we get back from this short break.

[00:09:00] This is Viewpoints with Kerby Anderson. The writer of the book of Hebrews reminds us of the value of church attendance. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together but as a habit of some, but encouraging one another all the more as you see the day drawing near. We should gather with fellow believers out of biblical obedience, but there are several benefits to attending church.

[00:09:27] Over the last few months, I've read articles and heard Christian leaders point to studies that demonstrate the value of church. First, there are the health benefits. Articles in Christianity Today and First Things, along with research from the Human Flourishing Project at Harvard University, document improvements in physical health. These include greater longevity, less substance abuse, and better survival rates from cancer and cardiovascular disease. Second are the mental benefits. Regular church attenders enjoy greater social support,

[00:09:57] which is why the incidents of depression and suicide are at much lower for those who are church attenders. A third benefit is social involvement. Regular attenders are more likely to volunteer and have greater social engagement. Church attendance is also correlated with greater generosity. In the past, I've mentioned the book Who Really Cares by Arthur Brooks that documented the difference between liberals and conservatives and the difference between Christians and secularists when it comes to giving their time, talent, and treasure. One additional benefit is happiness.

[00:10:27] Weekly interaction with other believers provides hope and encouragement. This is essential in time when many feel hopeless about their life and situation. Going to church is biblical obedience, but there are also physical, mental, and spiritual benefits. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View. Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net.

[00:10:55] That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Welcome back. We're talking about what happened over the weekend, and specifically we want to get in to the why of the political violence that we're seeing. And as Richard told us a moment ago, you know, history is cyclical, so we have seen instances like this in the past. But what does it come out of? And so we're going to kind of examine that.

[00:11:25] And like I said earlier, more than 40% of Gen Zers said that the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson, which you probably remember, was acceptable. And so when we hear stats like that, it can be hard to really ground that in any sort of tangible sense,

[00:11:44] because for probably most of us around the roundtable or listening today, that just seems so far-fetched because it's so out of bounds of what we would ever consider to be acceptable. Even if you acknowledge problems or corruption in different places, murder is not the answer. But more and more people, it seems, are starting to believe that while it might be. And in fact, I have a clip. This was taken from the Free Press.

[00:12:10] They did man-on-the-street interviews with NYU students, and so here are some of the things they had to say. Do you think that political violence is ever justified? Yes, especially when the systems we have in place are not serving the people. I do think that a lot of times their thought process to get to this type of violence is really justified, and that they just need to maybe express it better than killing people.

[00:12:40] I think if an oppressed people are trying to escape that oppression, then I think that would be a situation where it's justified. Okay, so Petrina, your reactions to that, I mean, obviously we can sit here and criticize and say, oh my gosh, that's so crazy, but these are normal people, normal students who are saying, well, yeah, I kind of get it. How did we get to that spot? We got here through a lot of injustice, unfortunately.

[00:13:09] And when you have an unjust society, it provokes folks to take matters into their own hands. And you can't have so much injustice that people have access to. I mean, the amount of information we have access to through social media is mind-boggling, literally and figuratively. And so just taking the last few months, I mean, the pinnacle was the Epstein-Thouse. I mean, the stuff that came out of that could literally break people's brains.

[00:13:38] And to see no justice, no follow-through on that, on top of the hardships that many Americans are going through economically, and you put all that together, they feel this injustice, and rightly so, because God sees the injustice. But again, when we have such a humanistic, godless perspective on things, it will provoke us to take matters into our own hands.

[00:14:04] And I think that's what we have with many people today is that they don't have a concept of God, so they want to take matters into their own hands and do something that they think will bring justice, but it really doesn't. Yeah, I think that's a good point, Betrina, and I do, especially when we talk about your article, want to delve into that idea a little bit more that we can criticize this culture of political violence, and we should.

[00:14:26] But if we don't address the root frustrations that are driving it and apply a Christian perspective to that, then we're also failing. But, Richard, what's your reaction here? Because, you know, people are inundated with so much negative information, more probably than any time in history that we would have known. And so I know that, you know, other studies show that Gen Z in particular, they're just very pessimistic about the world,

[00:14:54] and it is easy to get weighed down. But how do we respond when this kind of becomes the common mindset? Well, you know, it's hard to remove this incident from just the broader kind of landscape that we see among young people now, where, I mean, depression rates, suicide rates are quite high. And I think a lot of it has to do with the worldview that a lot of people have adopted,

[00:15:24] this kind of worldview that basically, you know, it's often utopian in nature. It's this idea that we can somehow bring heaven on earth through our own actions. And as Christians, we know we are called to act, but our actions don't bring heaven on earth. That we know that, you know, people are transformed through God's word.

[00:15:51] And we, you know, we know that they're transformed through the heart and that actions alone can't change the world. And, you know, it's something I alluded to earlier, this idea of being kind of little messiahs. You know, presidential assassins, they've murdered presidents based on this idea that I can tear down the system. I can improve the world by this one act. And we're getting more information about the assassin.

[00:16:20] And obviously I don't want to say anything before we know like a deeper picture on it. But he seems to talk about how, you know, there is oppression. And by acting in this way, I'm standing up against it. And so I think that a lot of it has to do with kind of that attitude that kids are brought up with. You know, when I was in high school, in undergrad and in grad school, I remember hearing the phrase, you know, change the world.

[00:16:48] You're going to change the world. And to me, I never, you know, in hindsight, to me, that's not healthy. I don't want to be the person that changes the world. I'm not equipped for that. I'm equipped to, you know, be faithful in what I could do in the big things and in the small things. But, you know, for me being the person that's going to change the world, I think that's a responsibility that people are putting on themselves that I don't think is healthy for them or quite frankly good for society.

[00:17:18] Mm hmm. Yeah, that is so true. I think a lot of millennials and members of Gen Z identify that. I know I certainly felt that way. And when you have that pressure and you see so much injustice, as you pointed out, Petrina, but you are not connected to any, you know, greater sense of moral order or trust in a just God like you were talking about, Richard, then, yeah, what are you left with?

[00:17:45] And so one of the free press articles ends by saying, you know, we we have to protect the First Amendment. And and I agree. So people are free to to say things that we find abhorrent to say things that we think are creating this culture. But we have to there's a difference between saying, well, you're you know, that's legal to say that. And what are we going to welcome into polite society?

[00:18:11] And Petrina, it seems like, you know, with all the frustrations people feel this kind of rhetoric, violent rhetoric, even, you know, popular podcasters talking about killing capitalists and things like that, that is becoming normalized. So is there can we push back against this just from a constitutional free speech argument? I mean, I think that we have to have the spiritual element in there as well. But anyway, just love to get your thoughts on that.

[00:18:41] Absolutely. You know, banning any type of speech is not not the way to go, because then you lose the opportunity to engage in apologetics, which is what moral Christian people should be doing. So when we hear something crazy and wicked, it gives us the opportunity not just to curse the darkness, but to shine a light. So absolutely, you know, let's let's let's safeguard that that's not the problem.

[00:19:09] But what we have is immoral leaders who have brought instability into our nation and they've led people along an evil path and now they're falling into their own trap. And then secondly, we have so much moral rot in our in our nation that that is what brings instability and our leaders aren't doing anything about it.

[00:19:32] And so something deeper I do want people to just think about is that oftentimes in scripture, God will use someone more wicked to punish the wicked. And I believe this could also be an example of that is in many other examples that are pointed out in the article, such as the health care CEOs being targeted. I mean, God sees everything. We have to keep that in mind. God sees everything. He sees the oppression. He sees the injustice. He sees the unfair weight. And, you know, as Christians, just as a way to go about it.

[00:20:00] And we have a redemptive perspective. But when you have leaders that tolerate moral rot, it brings instability. And that's why we're seeing such unstable behavior in the public. So really we have to return to a God mindset, not a God-less mindset. And, I mean, this is a sad thing, but it's really an opportunity for Christians to bring in the wisdom of God that is lacking and bringing so much instability to our nation.

[00:20:29] And we can bring stability with God's wisdom. Yes, so well said, Petrina. And I do want to just point out that this week, our Pray for America, which goes out every Thursday, and you can sign up for that at pointofview.net. The focus is on this culture of political violence and specifically how do we respond to it. So I encourage you to join us every day. But you can, if you want prompts and reminders to pray specifically for our nation and our culture,

[00:20:57] you can sign up for those Pray for America emails because we really do have to get back to some sort of moral sense. And as we know here at Point of View, the only way we can really establish ourselves on a moral foundation as a culture and first as individuals is on the word of God. And so we want to do that. We want to help you apply that. But when we come back, let's talk about some of the injustice in society that we're seeing, some of that moral rot. Petrina has written a wonderful article on her blog that I think is an important wake-up call for us.

[00:21:26] And we'll talk about it when we get back from this break. The Bible tells us not to worry. And yet there is a lot of worrying stuff in our world today. Thankfully, the Bible doesn't stop at telling us not to worry. God gives us a next step. He says we need to pray. But sometimes even knowing what to pray can be difficult.

[00:21:55] And that is why Point of View has relaunched our Pray for America movement, a series of weekly emails to guide you in prayer for our nation. Each week, you'll receive a brief update about a current issue affecting Americans, along with a written prayer that you can easily share with others. We'll also include a short free resource for you in each email so you can learn more about the issue at hand.

[00:22:24] Will you commit to pray for America? Go to pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner at the top of the page to subscribe. Again, that's pointofview.net. Click on the Pray for America banner. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in America. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:53] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again is Liberty McCartney. The news cycle may have moved on from the Epstein files.

[00:23:23] But as Petrina points out in this article that she's written, you can find it at pointofview.net. It still matters. Justice matters. And I think a lot of people were just maybe overwhelmed, disillusioned, disappointed when we did have some drops of thousands of pages where victims were exposed against their will. The perpetrators' names were redacted. We didn't see any actual justice. And that's the point that you make, Petrina.

[00:23:53] And for many people, it may be seemed like, hey, this isn't what we wanted. Like, we didn't want all this, you know, sordid gossip fodder type information. But we do know that this is a problem. Sexual assault in general is a problem. And you really speak for the victims here in this piece, Petrina. So walk us through why we should still care about this issue and what needs to be done about it. Thank you. Yes.

[00:24:20] So this month is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And in the piece, I make the argument that there is a shared empathy amongst us on this issue because of the sexual assault numbers. And what I mean by that is those who have experienced sexual assault not only in this country but globally. And I'll share a little bit of those numbers just to give a glimpse of what we have.

[00:24:47] One in six girls and one in 20 boys in the U.S. will experience sexual abuse before they reach the age of 18. So this is why they are still a child. Females represent the majority of adult rape victims, and then men represent 10. And globally we have over 67% of females and 71% of males, actually, who experienced sexual assault before the age of 18. That's globally.

[00:25:15] And over 90% knew their abuser, and that abuser should have been someone they could trust, and this person got away with it. So when we look at these numbers and just look at the U.S. numbers, that is a huge population to tell, get over it, don't care, it doesn't matter. One in six and one in 20, that's a lot.

[00:25:40] So, you know, this is why we have this type of awareness month because, you know, these victims, oftentimes they don't report, they don't tell their story. So many people carry this secret inside of them and fill it with shame and guilt and remorse and depression. And these people deserve to be highlighted. They deserve justice, and they deserve to be seen and told that you're not alone and that your case does matter. Yeah, thank you so much for raising that awareness, Petrina.

[00:26:10] And, Richard, I think so much of what you saw in response to the Epstein issue, and this is something that actually did unite people across the aisle in wanting perpetrators held accountable. It just, we know that this is a pervasive issue or we should be aware of it, and yet we see what seems to be power, people in positions of power getting away with this.

[00:26:37] Also, you know, trafficking in the United States is a huge issue that people often don't think about if it's not directly affected their lives. And so do you get the sense as well that people are disappointed or dissatisfied with promises that were not kept in this regard? Or do you think that it has kind of faded from public memory? Well, I would say definitely there is a deep-seated disappointment in it.

[00:27:06] And, you know, it's very unfortunate because something like this immediately gets seen from a very political lens and supporters of the administration. And I would say that there are many things the administration is doing that I do support. But it's very easy to kind of want the issue to fade away because that's the politically convenient thing to hope for.

[00:27:34] In this kind of situation, I often think about what John Adams did, our second president, one of our founding fathers, what he said. Facts are stubborn things, and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. And when we think about when he said this, this was during the trial of the Boston Massacre, the British officers that had been tried.

[00:28:04] And he defended the British despite being a patriot. And so he was able to apply the principles of the law and justice regardless of the political situation. And that's what that quote is really all about. And I know from a Christian perspective, our priority is really quite simple. Pursue truth without distortion. If there's evidence, it should lead to charges no matter who is involved.

[00:28:33] If there isn't, it should not be manufactured to satisfy public pressure. Justice requires both accountability for wrongdoing but also restraint in wanting to protect people from being wrongdoing. And I think the fact that we've seen a desire to move on from this makes the frustration people feel understandable.

[00:29:00] It should push us towards fighting for things like transparency as well as due process. And so that's kind of that balance that we have in this country that I think as Christians we can support and is something that, you know, one of our founding fathers, John Adams, modeled very well. Yeah, that's a great quote, Richard. Thank you for highlighting that. Facts are stubborn things.

[00:29:27] And it echoes something that the Gospel of Luke says. Nothing is hidden that will not be revealed. Nothing is secret that will not come to light. And, Petrina, it does seem that, you know, many people would like whatever has happened to stay hidden or just not deal with it because it's too messy. So I'd like to get your perspective, too, because you brought this issue up.

[00:29:49] And I know that you've been very consistent in advocating about this, not just for a political show or, you know, like you said, we don't need the list. We need justice. We need prosecution. So you made some comments about obviously we have Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche now. Do you have a lot of hope right now that this is going to continue to be pursued? And if not, what do we need to do about it?

[00:30:16] No, I don't have too much hope just based off of Todd Blanche's comments immediately taking over as Acting Attorney General in Palm Bondi's place. It was very lackluster. And, you know, as I state in the article, he's also Trump's former defense lawyer in the hush money trial with a porn star. I can't remember her name at this moment.

[00:30:45] And so it doesn't really bring a lot of credibility to his handling of this issue. And, you know, this issue is important because, I mean, I feel like we're going to be in Proverbs a lot today. But it also speaks to another proverb where it says that when a king takes a bribe, its administration is over.

[00:31:08] And if there's any type of extortion or bribery happening here, this contributes to the moral rot of a nation. And in Proverbs 28, verse 2, it says a moral rot within a nation makes a government topple easy. And so we have to be more concerned about righteousness and justice than we are about saving political faith. And our leaders will be held accountable all throughout the prophets.

[00:31:35] God holds the spiritual leaders of the people and the political leaders of a nation accountable for how they led the people into sin. And what this situation tells people is that you can do all the sin you want, but if there's a greater political cost to exposing you, you're going to get away with it.

[00:31:59] And this is the type of stuff that contributes to the mental instability of the people that provokes them to seek justice within their own means because we have moral rot from the top down. So this is just one example of that scripture of this type of situation that produces unstable people in our population. And this is why it matters.

[00:32:22] This is just another example of the spiritual laws we see being illustrated here in our physical context. So I really do appreciate you highlighting this story, Liberty. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you writing this and bringing this scripture to our minds as well, because it is so important for us to remember, you know, on point of view, we are not shy about discussing politics and the ramifications of our vote and the importance of getting involved.

[00:32:50] But we have to keep a Christian worldview preeminent. And there it is in scripture. As Petrina was quoting, whenever a nation is filled with moral rot, it topples easily. And this reminds me of something that Kirby's been talking about a lot recently. I know he's done some interviews and some commentaries on this, but just the fall of nations, the fall of empires and republics.

[00:33:13] And, of course, there's variation, but there is kind of a pattern and a cycle where at around the 250-year mark is when historically for other empires in the past, things have started to go south. So I think this is a real wake-up call. Obviously, we are about to hit our 250th anniversary as a nation in July. So this is a wake-up call for Christians. We need to be on our knees and we need to be willing to champion the cause of justice in the United States. But we'll discuss more issues when we get back from this short break.

[00:33:43] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. All right.

[00:34:06] To wrap up this hour, before we go on to discussing more news issues and updates in the next hour, let's talk about a generation that would like to live in the past. We've all, you know, talked about or joked about people who pined for the good old days, but you might not be aware of the fact that it's the teenagers and the young adults who are pining for the good old days that they were actually never alive in. And so this is an article from NBC News. You can find it at pointofview.net.

[00:34:35] Discomfort with modern technology shapes Gen Z's desire to live in the past. So this is based on a poll. Nearly half of adults ages 18 to 29 said that if they had the option, they'd choose to live in the past. And this kind of goes into what we were talking about a few minutes ago with just the frustration that a lot of young adults are feeling. And we talked about the extreme, you know, actions and ramifications of that.

[00:35:00] But 80 percent of Gen Z adults, according to this survey, say that the United States is on the wrong track. So, Richard, I knew that you'd have some fun things to say about this with your history expertise, of course. But I think it's interesting to me that so many young adults are now nostalgic for a time before their time. And when we're talking about the past, they're saying like less than 50 years ago. So like a lot of them look at the 90s and really romanticize that.

[00:35:28] And a lot of it does have to do with the kind of before the big tech boom, smartphones, social media, all of that. But, you know, what would you say to the 18 year old who says that he really wishes he had been born in 1990 instead of, you know, the early 2000s? So I have so many thoughts as somebody who loves history. I can understand the desire to live in the past. There's lots of things at play here.

[00:35:55] The first is something that we had talked about a little earlier about just the kind of emotional, spiritual, social landscape that young people are raised in. Unfortunately, they're often raised in households that where truth is not preached. The broader culture promotes a godless society. And so that's naturally going to lead to just a lot of unhappiness and angst.

[00:36:22] And I think the fact that social media, smartphones, all of these things have a distortionary effect. They amplify these kind of anxieties and miseries. They see other people who are happy. They feel like they're not happy. They get angry. They get into arguments online. So I think there's part of that. I think it's particularly tragic, too, because the fact of the matter is we live in a time where we are so blessed.

[00:36:48] And we live with such advancements that we're the product of a lot of hard work. You think about the level of knowledge that's available to us, the fact that we can communicate with friends around the world, that we can buy things from around the world and get it quickly, that we can fly almost to any part of the world, that we have modern medicine, that we can look into the universe. These are amazing things. And I think, sadly, human nature is such that we don't necessarily have gratitude for these things. It's just the way it is. I struggle with it, too.

[00:37:19] But it's also a reflection of the futility that we see, let's say, in Scripture, in Ecclesiastes, that somebody can attain all the whole world and yet be unsatisfied. I also think that there is an element of nostalgia that Scripture warns us against. In Ecclesiastes, there's a verse that says, say not, why were the former days better than these? There are things about the 90s that were wonderful. I grew up in them.

[00:37:47] I was born in the 80s, so I remember them vividly. But we shouldn't also romanticize them because it's not like 1999 was before the fall or anything like that. I mean, we had a lot of problems in the 90s. I remember the L.A. riots, which was pretty horrible. I remember the wars in Yugoslavia, the genocide in Rwanda, the Oklahoma City bombing. All of these things happened in the 90s.

[00:38:15] And so I think, again, as Christians, we have the opportunity to speak to truth and to show, hey, there's something that was even better than the 90s. And there's the truth that God has to offer all of us that can sustain you no matter what decade, no matter what era you're in. And that can be a source of peace that surpasses all understanding. So, again, a lot of thoughts on this. I think a lot of things are at work.

[00:38:40] But as Christians, we can shine a light on what truth is to not overly romanticize the 90s, but to put our hope in what really is worth putting our hope in. Yeah, very well said, Richard. Petrina, what's your reaction to this kind of trend of young adults being so unsatisfied with their lives today that they'd actually rather live in the past? I don't know. I think I'm going to be more fleshy on this one, Richard. I mean, the 90s were great.

[00:39:07] And if we're honest, us millennials, we have a good cry at lunch because we're not in the 90s. So, like, I get it. Like, we had Legends of the Hidden Temple, Double Dare, Salute Your Shorts. I mean, we had stuff that kids... Saved by the bell. Saved by the bell, exactly. In the college years, I mean, like, I mean, we had it so... Underrated. We're reminiscing here. We're reminiscing here. And, you know, so I get it.

[00:39:37] I really do get it because it was a time where you have more economic freedom. You could look at Home Alone and see that Kevin bought detergent, toothbrush, orange juice, dinner meals for less than $19. Oh, my gosh. I just noticed that when we watched that recently, Petrina. Yeah. I mean, it was amazing. So, you know, I get it. And right now, they look at that versus their present, which is, you know, housing in affordability.

[00:40:04] They're having to compete in the job market, really, with the world as we have a number, high number of H-1Bs. And they're having to compete with AI for the job. So, I really do get the grasping at nostalgia. And at the same time, I agree that what you really have to do is not long for the good old days, but to put your trust in God who promises to provide for you day to day. Yeah. Yeah. Well said, Petrina. Yes.

[00:40:33] I mean, it's fun. You know, we're getting to that age where we can look back now and talk about all the good old days. And clearly, there is no age limit for that because even the teenagers are doing that. And so, I think we, you know, have to, like you said, Petrina, understand where they're coming from. But, Richard, you had so much wisdom, too, about, okay, guess what? Your life wouldn't have been perfect, you know, in the 90s. And I also think it's funny when they talk about wanting to go back to the 90s.

[00:41:02] I'm like, well, you're still not escaping social media. You're just delaying it a little bit. So, unless you're going to build a time machine and go back and, like, make it better, then, you know, it's not really going to solve all of your problems to just go back a few decades. But I think what we have to do as Christians is to talk about, you know, encouragement, saying that we can pine for the old days and the good old days as much as we want to.

[00:41:27] But God chose and ordained for us to be born when we were born and to be here now when we're called to this moment. And one of the things that I'll just mention before we go off the air for this hour is that Gen Z, I think a lot of them are moving into trying to create a more positive future because we are where we are. But with regard to technology specifically, Gen Z is driving certain trends to build a healthier relationship with technology.

[00:41:55] And I think there's a sweet spot of utilizing all the advantages that we have that you were talking about, Richard, but also recognizing areas where we have been harmed by these devices and technologies when we didn't realize what it was doing to us. And so Gen Z is leading digital detoxes and healthier relationships and limits with screen time and social media. And I think that's a positive way that we can look at where we are and try to make a better future. But we're about to go off the air for this hour.

[00:42:25] Richard and Petrina, it's great to talk with you both. As always, you both have so much wisdom and perspective, and I appreciate that. So if you want to follow them and their work, which I highly recommend, you can find links to their own websites and projects at pointofview.net. When we come back, we're going to be talking with John Mancini and Alyssa Sonnenberg about some other issues, including revival.

[00:42:48] One of the other positives that we're seeing is that there are more Gen Z members who are interested in some sort of spiritual reality. And what exactly does the data say about that? We'll discuss that and other things when we come back from this break. So stay with us on Point of View. Where does moral truth come from?

[00:43:17] According to 58% of Americans, individuals determine moral truth. A quarter of Generation Z says society determines moral truth, and morality can even change over time. Only 42% of Americans believe that truth comes from God. I don't know about you, but I find these numbers extremely troubling. It really is a crisis of truth, and that crisis has consequences. Look at society. Evil is called good. Good called evil.

[00:43:46] People with biblical beliefs are called bigots. Or worse, they're canceled. But there is hope. The Bible promises the truth will set us free. And that's why Point of View is relentless in our commitment to the ultimate source of moral truth, God's Word. At Point of View, we know that God's truth is eternal. And if we stand together, we can help more Americans apply His truth in their daily life.

[00:44:12] Help Americans find truth again by giving at pointofview.net. Or call 1-800-347-5151. That's pointofview.net and 800-347-5151. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:44:44] Across America, live. This is Point of View. And now, Liberty McArtor. Welcome back to the Roundtable. In the first hour, we really delved into a lot of the problems that are plaguing our nation today, including the ones that are really frustrating young Americans. And right now, I want to talk about some of the solutions.

[00:45:14] So joining me this hour, Alyssa Sonnenberg. She is the manager of the Self-Evident Podcast, and she also works at Illinois Family Institute. Alyssa, it's always great to have you on the Roundtable. So thanks for being here today. Thank you so much, Liberty. I'm excited to be here. And then we have John with us again. He's the research associate at American Principles Project. And, John, it's been really fun having you on the Roundtable lately, and I'm glad that you're able to join us again today. I am as well. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me back on.

[00:45:43] So we are going to start off this hour talking about an article from the Institute for Family Studies. I am always highlighting their work. John, I know you're familiar with it very well. And it is just so important because they are doing so much relevant work and research and advocacy, specifically to build strong families. And so we've talked about on the Roundtable and on Point of View in general kind of the failure to launch that a lot of young adults are experiencing.

[00:46:11] We're seeing those traditional mile markers of adulthood delayed, things like marriage and owning a home, even being able to hold down a job. And there are a lot of economic factors at play with regard to that. College debt. So many things. But there is something that I think is just so important. I always want to highlight it when I have the chance. And that is something called the success sequence.

[00:46:36] And this is a sequence of events that, when followed, it really does have an association with a very low risk of poverty. So obviously there are no guarantees in life. But if you want a roadmap to give young adults about, hey, if you do this, this and this, statistically, your odds of succeeding in life are like super high. That would be the success sequence. OK, so what is that?

[00:47:00] Completing at least a high school education, becoming employed full time and marrying before having children, doing it in that order. Whenever people follow this success sequence, they are 97 percent of them are not in poverty by their mid 30s. And 86 percent reach at least the middle class. So you can call this like the poverty proof, basically, as close as we can get to that as possible.

[00:47:26] And so specifically, more research has looked at how this affected millennials. Seventy percent of upper income millennials have followed or are on track with the success sequence, meaning that they earned their high school education, then became employed full time, then got married before having children. Seventy-six percent of lower income millennials have missed one or more steps of that sequence. So, Alyssa, let me start with you.

[00:47:51] I know that you work in family policy and that you advocate about these kinds of issues. What this article really does is advocate for a state level initiative where the success sequence is promoted. And I wonder what you think of some of the recommendations. Absolutely. Illinois Family Institute actually has a really good partnership with an organization based here in Illinois. It's called the Abstinence and Marriage Partnership.

[00:48:18] And what that organization's sole focus is is actually to teach the success sequence in public schools across Illinois, to teach our young people that if they want to be successful in life, it's important for them to stay in school, to get their high school diploma. Why is that? It's because most jobs that you can climb the ranks in require a high school degree don't necessarily require a college degree, but they require a high school degree.

[00:48:45] And when you don't have that, you're severely limited in what kind of work you can get into, what kind of creative work you can do. And especially when we talk about having kids, having children is a huge responsibility, even when you're married. And so doing that outside of the protective context of marriage without the nuclear family of a loving husband and wife together raising that baby, you are absolutely more likely to go into poverty because you're doing things on your own.

[00:49:13] Child care becomes really hassling. You know, living expenses become difficult when you're just a single mom. So all of these things are really important for our young people to know. However, I think, and I know, you know, my organization has talked about this extensively, Illinois Family Institute, on the welfare issues that we have in the state of Illinois. And I'm thinking specifically of age of families with dependent children, part of that,

[00:49:40] where single moms are effectively incentivized to stay single because once you marry, you are significantly depleted of government assistance. And so I think there's a lot of conversation that we can have regarding what we can do for our young people and what we can do in a state policy realm that will encourage people to get married and stay married.

[00:50:01] I am so encouraged to hear that Illinois is being proactive in promoting the success sequence because, John, what we have here is just something that really can answer a lot of the problems that we're seeing among young people. And when you think about high school, I mean, I was homeschooled, but I know that in general, you know, you have things like career readiness and even in college, you know, you've got resume workshops,

[00:50:29] but there are no departments, at least traditionally now in some states maybe we're seeing this, but traditionally to say, okay, career readiness, what about just life readiness? And that's really what this is, isn't it? Oh, yeah, absolutely. No doubt. And especially I think it's really important to highlight, it's like these aren't hot tapes, you know,

[00:50:54] like staying in school, getting employed full-time, and getting married before having children, all with the end goal of, well, succeeding in life and raising just this wonderful family. It's not like we're indoctrinating anyone into anything. And I really, part of me worries that this is what people are going to come away from this with because, you know,

[00:51:20] there's an emphasis on, like, we need to make sure that we educate people about the success sequence and stuff like that. Because right now what's being taught is none of that. It's being taught, hey, you should actually delay marriage in favor of, you know, making the big bucks and all this stuff. But really, it's like the reason that you have to push so hard for that kind of thing, the idea that you should delay marriage is because it is so unintuitive.

[00:51:49] And really, I would go beyond that and just say it's so inhuman, really, to delay marriage, to delay that sort of fulfillment that we all just know that we want in one way or another. So, yeah, yeah, no, like this is absolutely fantastic. And it absolutely needs to be pushed more as we have a culture that, frankly, just pushes against it. You know, I really like that take, John, because like you said, these are not hot takes.

[00:52:17] In fact, it's really similar to what we see in Scripture. So it's interesting that research is backing up kind of the family as God ordained it, as being the thing that would lead in general to the most flourishing and success. And since I just reread this book, I have to bring in The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis, because he opens up by talking about the fact that modern education, and this was in the 1940s,

[00:52:42] was destroying students' sensibilities, meaning it was destroying their innate ability as image bearers of God to be able to recognize objective truth. So like you said, John, this is something that is natural for humans, the drive to start families and not wait to do that. But we have a culture of conditioners, as Lewis would have called them, that have been really giving kids a lie. And even with regard to some of the policies that you were talking about, Alyssa,

[00:53:13] incentivizing individuals to stay single so that they can receive more government aid. We'll talk about that and more when we get back from this short break.

[00:53:40] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. The writer of the book of Hebrews reminds us of the value of church attendance. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, but as the habit of some, but encouraging one another all the more as you see the day drawing near. We should gather with fellow believers out of biblical obedience, but there are several benefits to attending church.

[00:54:07] Over the last few months, I've read articles and heard Christian leaders point to studies that demonstrate the value of church. First, there are the health benefits. Articles in Christianity Today and First Things, along with research from the Human Flourishing Project at Harvard University, document improvements in physical health. These include greater longevity, less substance abuse, and better survival rates from cancer and cardiovascular disease. Second are the mental benefits.

[00:54:34] Regular church attenders enjoy greater social support, which is why the incidence of depression and suicide are at much lower for those who are church attenders. A third benefit is social involvement. Regular attenders are more likely to volunteer and have greater social engagement. Church attendance is also correlated with greater generosity. In the past, I've mentioned the book Who Really Cares by Arthur Brooks that documented the difference between liberals and conservatives and the difference between Christians and secularists

[00:55:02] when it comes to giving their time, talent, and treasure. One additional benefit is happiness. Weekly interaction with other believers provides hope and encouragement. This is essential in time when many feel hopeless about their life and situation. Going to church is biblical obedience, but there are also physical, mental, and spiritual benefits. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my Point of View.

[00:55:29] Go deeper on topics like you just heard by visiting pointofview.net. That's pointofview.net. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. So you can read these policy recommendations that we've been discussing at pointofview.net. Again, this is from the Institute for Family Studies, four practical steps states can take to advance the success sequence.

[00:55:58] So one of the things they recommend is working with the Office of Education in your state and your legislature if needed to require teaching the success sequence in public schools, investing in social media and traditional media campaigns, also creating initiatives for students who have gone off to colleges or technical training schools. Because as it highlights here, 18 to 25, like that's prime success sequence time,

[00:56:24] getting off on the right foot there in terms of relationships that you build. So there are many things that I think maybe people can look at this and say, maybe I can go advocate for this in my state and see how I might work with schools or the local state legislatures, things like that, to try to promote this. But Alyssa, you made a really important point and I want to come back to is that,

[00:56:49] unfortunately, so many policies actually de-incentivize family formation and things like the success sequence. And so we want to be able to help people who need help because, like, there is no guarantee, like we said earlier, hard times fall, bad things happen. Sometimes, you know, by no choice of your own, the success sequence just doesn't work out. But how can we balance that reality without just de-incentivizing getting back on the right track?

[00:57:19] Because like you said, you know, there in some ways, like single mothers are de-incentivized to actually remarry or get married because then they'll lose so much government aid and then they are right back in poverty. And so, I don't know, I'd love to hear you talk more about that. Absolutely. It's hard at the policy level because, of course, we can have more red tape of where there's more screenings when it comes to the kind of assistance you receive.

[00:57:43] But ultimately, that won't work because the more that government gets involved in your daily life, the more hassle and the more issues arise, as we've seen time and time again. And so, ultimately, this issue is a worldview spiritual issue where women have to desire marriage above self-gratification. Women have to choose the well-being of their future children over government checks.

[00:58:11] Men have to step up and stay with their partners and stay with their children. I mean, the areas that we see this most is the inner cities where men leave very easily. So, the women are left to raise the kids by themselves. And we know that fatherlessness has just the same effect of you're less likely to graduate high school, you're more likely to become impoverished. If you're a boy, you're more likely to get into drugs. If you're a girl, you're more likely to lead a promiscuous lifestyle.

[00:58:39] And so, this issue is just compounding, compounding, compounding with all of these facets. And so, again, ultimately, it's a worldview spiritual issue where men and women have to step up and be the people that God designed them to be. And marriage is wonderful. God designed us for marriage. When he created Adam, he said, it's not good that man should be alone. And every metric shows that married men are way wealthier than single or cohabitating. Marriage is a great idea. It's a wonderful idea. It's God's idea.

[00:59:08] And people just need to see that and follow it because it's great. Yeah, absolutely, Alyssa. John, I think that she's so right saying that this is a worldview and a spiritual issue. And you can respond to that, comment on any aspect of it. But just one thing before I toss it to you real quick is that I think what we see in culture is kind of an idolization of independence or autonomy more accurately.

[00:59:38] And so that does lead us to not want to prioritize family, especially if we might perceive it as being inconveniencing or sacrificing some goal of our own. Or you do see men who are unwilling to take responsibility for their actions or to commit to their children that they help create. And so you have the fatherlessness epidemic. And I don't know.

[01:00:02] It seems to me that that kind of, you know, idol that we have as a culture of just being completely untethered from any sort of duty or social or familial responsibility kind of contributes to this. What do you think? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I very quickly actually want to plug because the American Principles Project, we actually just dropped our – we called it the Father's Wanted documentary. I believe it's on the Tucker Carlson Network at the moment. It just dropped today.

[01:00:32] And when I was doing some research for that documentary, it's – the single men in particular that I was finding – I'm talking just like TikToks and reels and this sort of thing of people explaining why they're single. I mean, literally, it's exactly what you were saying. It's like they – some of them would just outright say, I'm lazy. I don't want the responsibility. I would make a terrible father, et cetera.

[01:01:01] And, you know, kind of viewing that, you realize it just makes the marriage statistics make all that much more – oh, gosh, it rationalizes them so much more, right? Because when you're married, you just – you can't afford to be lazy. You can't afford to be irresponsible. And, I mean, I'm sure that one – men in particular – well, men and women, sure.

[01:01:26] But these guys in particular that I'm talking about, were they to get married, perhaps they would step up to the plate. And all of a sudden, they would become more responsible because marriage just – I think marriage just kind of forces you into that. So that's what I would say there. Yeah, that is so interesting. Alyssa, you know, you mentioned this is really a spiritual issue. And so I appreciate the article we've been discussing because it does have some practical steps that states can take. And I do encourage people to look at that.

[01:01:55] But let's kind of zoom back down from the policy perspective here and say, okay, well, if this is a worldview thing, if this is a culture thing, then what do we do as parents? Because I know you and I both have little ones. What do we do in our churches where people are actually being raised and their values are being formed? Because we have to be intentional about this.

[01:02:20] The next generation is not going to pick up family values from the culture. They're not going to catch that. That's going to have to be, you know, put in there intentionally. Yeah, absolutely. That's something that we as parents are charged with. And, you know, Deuteronomy speaks about this very clearly, that we are supposed to talk about things of the Lord when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're going about our days, that our children are supposed to be discipled by us daily.

[01:02:49] And they aren't just discipled by what we teach them. They're discipled by what we show them, how we interact with our spouses, how I talk to my husband. And that is also important. And I also think on a church level, I'm just thinking of senior pastor Josh Howerton. He's pastor at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. I think two months ago, he preached a sermon calling couples who are living together before marriage to repent.

[01:03:14] And that at this date, at their church, they were going to hold a mass wedding ceremony for anyone who wanted to repent of that lifestyle and do things the right way and get married. And I think like 60 couples showed up from the church repenting of living together before marriage and got married that day. And I think that's such a powerful testament to what pastors are supposed to do is simply to preach the word. That is their job. It's to speak truth.

[01:03:42] It's the call to repentance, things that need to be repented of. And when pastors do their job, God rewards that fruit by calling his people into that repentance and newness of life. Yeah, I do remember seeing that story. And that is such a great example. I mean, we talk about, you know, promote the success sequence in schools and at a state level. But talk about it in youth group. Talk about it in a sermon.

[01:04:09] And one of the things that we discuss on Point of View a lot is that in order to make a biblical worldview really tangible, it does have to be applied to current issues and events that people are facing in their life. I mean, God's word is timeless. Obviously, his truth is eternal. And so the most important thing is for people to, you know, be following him and be accepting that truth.

[01:04:36] But we also want to know, OK, how is it? How does this apply? How does this apply to life? And what we've seen over time due to so many, you know, different factors is really kind of a separation of for a lot of Christians, like our spiritual sensibilities and like our what we know theologically. And like, yes, I follow Jesus. And yes, I'm a Christian. And I, you know, believe that I'm going to heaven and all these things.

[01:05:02] And yet a separation from, well, how does that impact how you're living right now? And so I think this is an opportunity where, yes, prioritize the gospel, teach through the scriptures. That's what churches should be doing. But also equip your congregation to apply God's truth to what they're seeing around them in your youth group or your Bible study or those opportunities. Talk about these things.

[01:05:27] And there are just so many ministries I know and individuals and churches who are doing this. But giving an action item like that to say, hey, here's what God's word says about this, like marriage. And if you have not been following that, like, you know, the Lord loves you and he will forgive you. But repentance means turning around and saying, I'm going to follow God and walk in the opposite way. And here's a way to do that. We're going to have a big marriage celebration.

[01:05:54] So I love that example, and I think that that's something that more churches could do. But when we come back, let's talk more about church. We've heard that Gen Z is interested in finding God. So we're going to look at some of the data and exactly what it says about that and discuss it. So stay right with us here on Point of View. Have you ever met a child you knew would do great things? They displayed remarkable imagination, understanding, and a zest for learning.

[01:06:21] Now imagine someone takes that child and instead of fostering their potential with a real education, they feed them nothing but lies. You know, that scenario isn't so far from reality.

[01:06:32] From a young age, Americans are fed a consistent stream of distorted facts from the secular indoctrination they receive in many public schools to the biases presented as fact in many colleges and universities to the barrage of misinformation from the mainstream media and the lack of moral grounding in our society. It's not that Americans aren't capable of understanding the truth. It's that they aren't exposed to it enough.

[01:06:59] You can expose more Americans to the truth when you give to Point of View, where listeners receive facts, perspective, and biblical truth they don't get from society. As long as we have truth, we have hope. Give today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. Pointofview.net and 1-800-347-5151.

[01:07:30] Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now here again is Liberty McCartney.

[01:07:56] So we've been hearing reports of revival, reawakening for quite a while now. We've discussed it multiple times on Point of View and on the Roundtable. But if you are on social media at all or following this topic in the news, you may have seen kind of some back and forth about the data. So this is an article from Christianity Today, the revival that wasn't and the one that may be. So spoiler alert, there is good news. There is hope.

[01:08:22] But some of the data that was previously reported has turned out to be misleading or just not true. So let's go through some of that. And then I'm really eager to get Alyssa and John's reactions here. So basically there was a study from the British Bible Society recently that had really shown evidence of what they called a quiet revival among young adults.

[01:08:46] The report claimed that church attendance among 18 to 24 year olds in England and Wales had quadrupled between 2018 and 2024. Now, that's big news, especially because if you're at all familiar with what's happening over in Europe, religion and Christianity in particular are definitely on the decline. And so that was exciting for us across the pond as well, because a lot of people were saying, wow, is this a trend with young adults in general? Is this a trend we're seeing in the West?

[01:09:12] And so then more recently, the data firm YouGov, and I honestly don't think this has gotten enough attention because that's where the British Bible Society pulled those numbers from, admitted that the numbers were flawed. So the report was actually pulled. Now, I have heard a lot of naysayers in the United States as well, even before that data was pulled, really saying like there's not a revival happening. The data doesn't show that. And we do want to be honest about what the data shows.

[01:09:41] So that's why I appreciated this article from Christianity Today, because they acknowledge the faults in some of the data that we had seen previously. But they also acknowledge, look, we've seen campus revivals here in the United States. We've seen reports of Gen Z men showing new interest in church. We talked about that, I think, just on the last roundtable last week. We've seen a generation that seems to be more spiritually interested than they were in the past.

[01:10:07] And so should we be concerned about the data and interpreting what we're seeing as spiritual movement here in the United States? And basically, they say the short answer is no. We are seeing rumblings of something good happening. And so there is nuance, though. What we're seeing is that young adults still are very intimidated by formal institutions. Of course, we have institutional trust at all time lows in everything from the media to the government to churches.

[01:10:37] So there are the in regards to the number of Gen Z adults who are actually attending a church or identifying as Christians. The number is still low. But 71 percent believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world. And 73 percent of young people are open to spiritual conversations. And this is what really blew my mind.

[01:10:57] Eight in 10 respondents of this survey that they're writing about here showed that respondents said being listened to shaped their faith more than any other single factor. So they may be hesitant to come to church if they don't, if they have low institutional trust. But just being listened to, having somebody who actually asks them, they're really open to talk about that.

[01:11:22] So, John, that's kind of the layout here in regards to the data and what's happening. But does this resonate with anything that you have seen? And what's your reaction to this? Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I notice all the time there's some people maybe at church or, yeah, yeah, I guess really just at church, that, you know, maybe you see them every Sunday or whenever you go to some event.

[01:11:52] And they might be the quiet person, right? But if you – I find – I really like to have this attitude that there's always something I can learn from someone. And if you ask even the quietest person, the person that you may not even regard all that highly, like intellectually speaking, if you genuinely ask them their opinion, they're going to say something really fascinating. They'll perk up.

[01:12:20] All of a sudden, they're super interested in whatever the heck you're talking about. And, well, like, you know, I noticed this a long, long time ago. And so it's gotten to the point – it's just I love talking to anyone, no matter their religious background, because I always know that I have something to learn. And these stats were really heartwarming for me just to know it's like, hey, who the heck knows,

[01:12:43] maybe one day this will lead to a conversion or maybe it's deepened their fate even just a little bit just by talking to me. It's a very humbling experience for sure. And that's really inspiring, John, that you do that. I think maybe some of us, we feel hesitant – or maybe I'm just speaking for myself as an introvert – to really initiate conversations that might be uncomfortable or with people who maybe our defense mechanism automatically goes up,

[01:13:11] Alyssa, because we're talking with someone, whether that's a family member or a friend or somebody in the neighborhood, that we know is going to probably have fundamentally different beliefs than us. But these statistics on the fact that young adults are super open to discussing spiritual things and that they actually want to be listened to, I think this should really be a rallying cry for Christians to say, well, then let's get out there and have a conversation. What do you think?

[01:13:38] Yeah, I believe it's important that we listen to people that have questions, that we have conversations, because that is how the gospel goes forward, is by mending and creating those relationships with people. However, I probably have a minority opinion.

[01:13:56] I was actually very critical of this article for the fact that it shows later on that 67% were more interested in being heard than listening to sermons. And my criticism of that is that you can be interested in spiritual things, but you can also be uninterested in the gospel at the same time. It reminds me of John 6, when Jesus looks at the crowd and he says to them,

[01:14:23] you want to follow me not because of who I am, but because you want more bread. And I'm seeing that in my generation, that they want to be spiritual, they want to have these conversations, they want to ask questions, but they're not ultimately interested in having the answer be Christ and repentance and faith and obedience, because they're not interested in going to church. And that's a huge red flag for me, because Hebrews says that going to church is the mark of an obedient believer.

[01:14:53] And another criticism I have is that the three churches that Christianity today highlighted, one in L.A., and I forget where the other two were, but all of them have females as pastors on their staff. And also, only one out of three of those churches has any kind of doctrinal beliefs listed on their website. So for those other two churches, you have no idea what they believe, you have no idea what they teach,

[01:15:17] and again, it doesn't necessarily matter ultimately if you feel listened to, although I believe obviously that's important. We need to be kind, we need to be hospitable. That's one of the reasons why my husband and I chose the church that we're at, because people were so kind and hospitable to us. It helped us feel welcome. However, the most important thing in finding a church is finding a pastor that preaches sound doctrine, because in Titus, that is what pastors are charged to do.

[01:15:44] They're not charged to reimburse travel. They're not charged to be the most psychologized pastor and, you know, protecting boundaries and all these buzzwords that's so popular in Gen Z. They are charged to preach the truth. And again, if the majority of people in my generation are uninterested in hearing that truth, they're more interested in having someone listen to them,

[01:16:08] that tells me that the spiritual sickness that is alive and well in our culture has just taken a different form. So, yeah, that's my opinion. I know I probably have a minority opinion, but that was my takeaway from the article. I actually came away very disappointed than encouraged personally. Well, I really appreciate you sharing that, Alyssa, because I want, I mean, that's what the roundtable is all about. And I think you bring up some good points, you know, with regard to that.

[01:16:36] I mean, there's so we have to be careful because when we see trends or data or things online, we want to see what we want to see. Right. And so I think for people who have looked at, you know, those arguments about can we trust data? Are people spiritually curious? Are they not? Are they going back to church? Then, you know, we want to say we want to be encouraged.

[01:16:58] However, you make a good point, too, that, well, okay, are we going to be so seeker friendly that after we have listened, we are not willing to be bold in presenting the gospel? So I think that we can, you know, really kind of thread the needle here and say, I think this is important that we want to listen.

[01:17:22] We want to not go into conversations with individuals and be argumentative. But when the time comes to say, okay, you know, here's the truth. Here's the ultimate answer to that question. Here's what the Bible says. Then we can't pull our punches there. We have to speak the truth. And absolutely, we need to be personally involved with churches that are doing that.

[01:17:48] So if you have been, you know, interested or had your interest piqued by this conversation and you want to look at the data for yourself and see, you know, what are people saying and what are the signs of spiritual awakening that's there or not, you can check out the article for yourself at pointofview.net. When we come back from the break, I want to continue talking about this for a little bit because there is so much data that is not disputed about the benefits of not just being spiritually curious,

[01:18:17] but actually attending church. And I want to highlight some of that evidence when we get back. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth.

[01:18:44] So Gen Z may be showing signs of spiritual curiosity, but how do we respond to that? And how do we continue to promote the gospel in our culture? So Alyssa, I'd actually like to follow up because, you know, as we discussed, we can listen, but you said you don't think that your generation is actually interested in hearing the truth. And so obviously we can talk about the benefits of church attendance and religious community, and I think we're going to try to do that here in a minute.

[01:19:10] But if they're not interested in hearing the gospel or hearing the truth, then where does that leave us as Christians who want to make an impact on the future? Yeah, absolutely. And I want to be clear that I believe Gen Z isn't uniquely necessarily opposed to hearing truth. I think every generation has difficulty with hearing truth and being obedient to the gospel.

[01:19:37] I mean, whenever Jesus references his disciples, he calls them a little flock. And you know that popular verse that wide is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life. Christianity has always been a minority religion. It has never been the mass. And that happening, you know, when our country was first founded was a unique blessing of God on our country.

[01:20:03] And so for us to see a declining reality of, you know, Christianity in the West isn't something necessarily that's bad. It's probably something I would say that's normal for the church, that true believers are always a remnant. It's not in the majority. So I just want to make that clear that I'm not super pessimistic. I'm just trying to be realistic about my generation that I don't think we're uniquely attuned to the gospel because everyone is dead in their trespasses and sins.

[01:20:32] But when it comes to church attendance, I do believe, especially with Gen Z, that there's probably more people that are willing to try church or willing to attend church. And, you know, attending church is so important. And I know that for a lot of believers, they claim that it's optional. But, you know, God's word is very clear that true believers are people that gather together regularly in community.

[01:20:58] You see this in Acts chapter 2, after 3,000 people are converted, after Peter's Pentecost sermon. You see this in Hebrews, like I referenced earlier, that we gather together to encourage one another, to bear one another up. We share each other's burdens that way. We sit under sound preaching from elders and shepherds that shepherd our hearts well. That's how we do that is we go to church on Sunday.

[01:21:24] And so, yes, I would say that Gen Z is probably normal, like any other generation, that you have people that want to hear the gospel, and you have people that are just chill with being spiritual and saying that they're spiritual and that they believe in an afterlife. But the mission field is the same, that we need to speak truth and love and leave the results to God. Well said, Alyssa.

[01:21:49] So, of course, all of the reasons that you gave in the scriptures telling Christians not to leave the assembly of believers, but to continue to gather together in corporate worship, like we do that because God tells us to. But as we discussed earlier with when we were talking about the success sequence, when we do follow what God has laid out for us, we see benefits of that.

[01:22:15] And so one of the things I wanted to bring up, just because I think it's relevant, and for those of us raising kids, know that it's so important for so many reasons to follow God's way. There is a clip that I'm going to play. It's actually from a while back, but it went viral on X over the weekend. And it's from the sociologist Jonathan Haidt, who writes a lot about Gen Z, specifically talking about an issue that is so relevant to young adults today, and that's the epidemic of loneliness. So I thought you guys would find this interesting.

[01:22:45] Let's go ahead and play that. People need to be tied in, locked in, in a community. I'm a big fan of Emil Durkheim. The sociologist is my favorite thinker of all time. When we're not tied in, locked in, we're free, but that doesn't make us happy. We have nothing to push against. We have no sense of meaning. It's like if you try to raise a plant, not in the ground, but just like up in the air, and it just can't be done. And so religious kids are rooted in traditions, faith, rituals, community.

[01:23:14] They go to church every Sunday. The Jewish kids have Shabbat. They literally can't use electronics for a day. So they were always happier than the secular kids. But what happens after 2012, it's quite remarkable in all the graphs. The religious kids get a little more anxious and depressed. The secular kids get much more anxious and depressed. So, John, I'll come to you because, I mean, of course, community for the sake of community, when it lacks, the truth of the gospel is still not enough. And I want to acknowledge that.

[01:23:42] But, again, just in terms of the flourishing that you see when we do what we're supposed to do as families and we raise our kids the way they're supposed to be raised, it's so interesting. Jonathan Haidt is an atheist, by the way, and he's acknowledging this. So quick reactions from you, John, before we wrap up today. Yeah, I think what he says about there being, with community, there being something to kind of push against.

[01:24:10] This is something that makes being part of a group and especially a really thriving and good faith-based community really special is because if you have a question, there's something over and above you that can respond.

[01:24:26] And, again, if it's guided by faith, if it's faith and reason, I would say, guided by the truth of the gospel, whatever question you have, whatever truth you're, like, pushing against and really trying to, you know, grasp, hopefully that answers you. So that's what I think is so important about community. And so, yeah, like, of course, you're going to be a little bit less anxious if you have a really good community to ground yourself in.

[01:24:54] Again, one that's grounded in truth because hopefully then you yourself will be grounded in truth. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Alyssa, we talk about, you know, how do we evangelize the culture? But really we can see just the benefits of one of the ways to evangelize is by raising your kids according to the way that God ordained. And I think that this evidence shows us that there are benefits of that. Absolutely.

[01:25:20] And not only just with attending church but getting plugged into your church. That's how you really experience and your kids experience one-on-one community with other people like you, with other families. And, you know, my husband and I are part of a small group every Thursday. And those people have become family to us. They're people that we do life with.

[01:25:44] And it's so special to have, you know, our daughter around their kids and to see them interact as our daughter gets older. And then, Lord willing, when we have more kids to have them experience that as well. That these are people that we can share our burdens with, that we can share our successes with, that we can share our anxieties with. And when you just have that biblical listening ear and that biblical encouragement, that is truly what makes your life feel like it's thriving.

[01:26:11] When you're not only being obedient to God's word by attending church, but you're getting plugged into the community that God has for you. It's truly such a spiritual blessing. I cannot emphasize it enough. Is it an effort sometimes to get out of the house at 530 p.m. on a Thursday? Absolutely. Is it always worth it? Yes. Every single time. And it's something we look forward to every week. Because, like I said, it's like we're getting together with family members.

[01:26:37] And so, yeah, just having that around your kids, seeing your children or watching your children and then teaching your children what it means to live in community, what it means to show up for someone. You know, one of my friends is about to have a baby soon. And our church is, I'm helping our church mobilize a meal train for her so that we can bless their family with meals when she's early postpartum. That is how we teach our kids that this is what service looks like. This is what it means to be a Christian. This is how we love people.

[01:27:05] And I think, you know, actions like anything else speak louder than words. And our kids get that. Yeah. So well said, Alyssa. And our testimony is so powerful. And that is something that we can share when we see the loneliness epidemic around us, when we see our peers struggling with disenfranchisement and even, you know, worldviews that are evil. But a searching and a hunger for something more, even if they don't realize it, then the truth can be such a bright light if we're willing to live it out like that.

[01:27:34] And rooting ourselves in scripture and in church community like we've been discussing. That gives us the purpose that we need. It's been a great roundtable discussion today. You can check out all of the topics and co-host information at pointofview.net. And don't forget to tune back in tomorrow. It was not that long ago that censorship appeared to be almost inevitable. Free speech was being attacked and strangled in many places.

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