Point of View April 18, 2025 – Hour 2 : More Than Things

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, Kirby Anderson. You know, we live in a world of commodification in which oftentimes people are seen as things rather than people. Of course, this issue of personhood is very, very key.

[00:00:31] Each year when I teach in this one class in Oregon, after we've talked about the doctrine of creation and taught about creation, I then say, so what? And a lot of that gets down to the issue of personhood. Of course, if you've listened to Point of View, you will certainly notice that the conversation we're going to have today about this book, More Than Things, fits very well. Because we're going to be talking about issues ranging from abortion and euthanasia and genetic engineering,

[00:00:59] even issues related to artificial intelligence and maybe even the idea of immigration and just war and racism and even transhumanism, all of which we have little booklets for. This is a book of 440 pages that goes to each one of those topics that we address individually here on Point of View and brings it back to this idea of personhood. It is written by Dr. Paul Lewis Metzger.

[00:01:28] He received his doctorate from King's College in London. He is a professor of theology and culture at Multnomah University and Seminary. He's also the director of their Institute for Cultural Engagement. He's the author of a number of books, including this on More Than Things, but other books, Setting the Spiritual Clock, Sacred Time Breaking Through the Secular Eclipse, Connecting Christ, How to Discuss Jesus in a World of Diverse Paths, and much more.

[00:01:56] He has really devoted a lot of his time and attention to what you might call personalist ethics, in part because, as we'll talk about, he has had an adult son who has endured a catastrophic brain injury. So, Dr. Metzger, welcome to Point of View. Thank you so much, Mr. Anderson. It's great to be with you and your audience. Thank you.

[00:02:18] Let's, if we can, maybe start with your personal story because it begins the journey that you take us through on a variety of different issues that bring us back to this issue of personhood. Tell us about your son. Thank you, Kirby, for the opportunity to share about Christopher. So, Christopher endured a catastrophic brain injury in January of 21.

[00:02:41] While I can't go into details about all the surrounding events pertaining to it, it was, as I said, catastrophic. He is now presently in a minimally conscious state in an adult care facility, and he's married with a daughter who's now seven, Jayla. So, Kiana and Jayla. And, as you can imagine, not only was it catastrophic to him, but it was catastrophic to our whole family.

[00:03:09] And it's really, you know, in a sense of baptism with fire as we were dealing not only with Nero storming, but, you know, the themes of this book of really taking it into a much more personalized domain, so to speak, on a variety of issues in light of our family's experience. So, let's, if we can maybe kind of set the scene, because then we're going to work our way through the issues. And so often we talk about these issues as you speak.

[00:03:37] I'll maybe even hold up some of the booklets that we make available so that people understand the ethical issues related to that. But they all come under the theme of personhood or personalism.

[00:03:49] And even when you take the issue of abortion, I mean, the original argument, basically, in Roe v. Wade, which has now been overturned, was that, well, indeed, since the 14th Amendment only protects persons, and since we are doubtful whether someone inside the womb is a person, then we certainly can allow for abortion.

[00:04:11] I remember when I was working in the bioethics area at the Kennedy Institute of Bioethics tied into Georgetown when I was there, Joseph Fletcher was making the case as well that, again, persons are defined by their abilities. Of course, that's your third chapter.

[00:04:30] And so if a person is in a coma or they are certainly, in this particular case, having a brain injury, well, we don't necessarily have to think about them as persons. And all through your book, you end up quoting from Richard Dawkins and a variety of other individuals that are E.O. Wilson and Peter Singer. You can go through the long list.

[00:04:54] And it seems to me that more than ever, we need a Christian view of personhood at a time when so many secular prominent opinions are saying, no, a person is merely their abilities or their usefulness to society. Can you help us out in terms of developing maybe a theology of personhood? Thank you, Kirby. So just to take it back to my son and the opening story there to which you alluded,

[00:05:22] I was really struck by how one of the nursing administrators in a care conference had said to us that we want to protect Christopher's dignity, so we always want to cheat over him, even though in the summer it can get very hot, even with the air conditioning. And I was really struck by the fact that even in his minimally conscious state by that point, she was indicating that he has, shall I say, inherent dignity.

[00:05:51] And I don't know her particular worldview, her philosophy of life and personhood, but I certainly resonated with that point because she was connecting his being to what I take to be inherent dignity. And so from a Judeo-Christian vantage point, there is this devout sense, deep sense, that our worth is inherent. It's not extrinsic.

[00:06:17] You mentioned at the beginning of the show commodification and how so much of our society today commodifies or reduces people to things, as Jonathan Sachs, the late rabbi from the United Kingdom, and the philosopher Michael Sandel at Harvard, emphasized in different contexts and different ways, David Brooks as well. But, you know, Michael Sandel wrote this important book, What Money Can't Buy, The Moral Limits of Markets.

[00:06:47] And he's not challenging a free market economics. He's challenging a free market society where the only thing that has value is our economic viability or our usefulness. And so, you know, what does that mean for an elderly person? What does that mean for a Down syndrome fetus or a Down syndrome, you know, individual out of the womb? What does that mean for my son? He's not benefiting the market, so to speak. Does that mean his value is no more? I hardly think so.

[00:07:17] And, again, from the vantage point of a Judeo-Christian view, I think it all comes back to the fact that our worth is derived from our being created by God and in that sense intrinsic. And so, therefore, humanity can never be commodified based on usefulness. As the cover of the book suggests, it's not based on our being tools to use or cogs in a machine or bit parts that benefit this or that market system.

[00:07:45] We have inherent value and dignity. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we're going to get into some of these issues. One of those, of course, as you might imagine, is abortion and a throwaway culture of suffering and happiness, but one that looks beyond just that issue. Then we'll get into the idea of genetic perfection. If you've ever seen the movie Gattaca, that was one of the things that we'll use as an illustration there. That will then get us into, of course, some of the sexual issues.

[00:08:14] Transgenderism is something we've talked about in the sexual revolution, some of the conversations we've had about sex and culture. We'll continue down that vein as we get into, of course, even the issue of assisted suicide and the rest. Then we'll move into everything from race to immigration, just war, creation, and environmental care, and even transhumanism. We're going to try to cover quite a bit, and we will do so right after these messages.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. Joy Pullman is the executive editor of The Federalist, and in a recent speech, she reminds her audience that even though economic issues are important, we should not neglect the social and cultural issues of our nation. She admitted,

[00:09:36] Much of her speech could be summarized with this statement. If it's good enough for the federal government, it should be good enough for the states. She believes that our state legislature should codify many of Trump's executive orders. Now, if you think about it, this is the reverse of how we normally have talked about federalism. We usually refer to the states as laboratories of democracy. States can experiment with various policies without risking the entire nation, but she argues what is working at the national level should be implemented at the state level.

[00:10:05] For example, why not have the state legislatures erase DEI from the National Guard? Why not ban taxpayer funds from any institution that supports DEI in any form? Why not have a statewide DOGE search through programs and erase those in conflict with the Constitution? Shouldn't legislatures stop school libraries from using tax dollars to purchase pornographic books? Why not enforce indecency laws at the state and local level?

[00:10:32] Her speech reminds us of the importance of cultural issues and the need to pay attention to them in our states and local communities. I'm Kirby Anderson, and that's my point of view. For a free booklet on biblical reliability, go to viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability. Viewpoints.info slash biblical reliability.

[00:10:58] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again, as we are privileged to have with us today, Dr. Paul Lewis Metzger. The book is entitled More Than Things. By the way, I might just mention it is published by InterVarsity Press. If you would like to read it, it is available on the website. You might be able to find it in your local bookstore, but oftentimes we recognize that, especially since we're doing interviews on a book that's been out for a while that's a little more thoughtful, it may not be easy to find in a bookstore.

[00:11:26] So we have a link so that you can find it on our website at pointofview.net. Dr. Metzger, we have this middle section that starts with abortion, ends with euthanasia, and physician-assisted suicide. Almost 200 pages, I should say, so it's a very significant part of your book. But they all fit together because whether you deny the personhood of someone inside the womb or you deny the personhood of somebody who, especially in the state of Oregon,

[00:11:55] since you have physician-assisted suicide, wants to kill themselves, it's really the same thing because in each case we no longer see that that life is worth living, and that is not a biblical perspective, is it? Well, I would agree with you that it's not a biblical perspective when we account for the fact of even how Scripture frames the theme of suffering

[00:12:20] and how even in the midst of great trauma and travail, suffering can still be redemptive. And, you know, you mentioned Joseph Fletcher before, and I struggle with how he frames matters simply in terms of quality of life. Well, I certainly think that's important for my son. And we have to always, from the Judeo-Christian vantage point, speak about quality of life from a vantage point of sanctity of life.

[00:12:48] And that, again, it's an inherent sanctity of life that we're talking about even in the midst of suffering. And it does seem to me that that's a very key principle that seems to have vanished, not only because of, you know, Supreme Court decisions and decisions about physician-assisted suicide and end of care and all the rest, but also because we have gone from being a Judeo-Christian culture, which used to value individuals,

[00:13:17] to a time in which we evaluate people almost the way we do commodities. And that brings us back to that commodification that you've written about in other books and you certainly write about here. And maybe another way to illustrate that is to go to your chapter on genetic perfection. I wrote a book a little while back on genetic engineering. I've written a whole book on it years and years ago. But that, I thought, was interesting because you, for example,

[00:13:44] mentioned a movie, Gattaca, which I have used many times as an illustration, that we are looking for, if you will, genetic perfection. If you've never seen the film, let me just mention to our listeners that you have one individual that's born the old-fashioned way, and then the other son, and this would be a brother, is born genetically engineered. And we have this whole idea of genetic engineering,

[00:14:13] transhumanism, moving towards this singularity. We, certainly, because we have rejected this Christian perspective, are really open to some things that, quite frankly, don't you think, Dr. Metzger would have been unthinkable a few decades ago? Certainly would have been. And, again, we mentioned before Michael Sandel within this context of, you know,

[00:14:36] genetic perfection and how that in and of itself can be truly a Pandora's box that we have in our society today. So if you want to get into that further, I'm happy to do so. Well, let's talk about that for just a minute before I move on, because it does seem to me that we're going to be hearing more and more about that. Of course, Michael Sandel is a professor at Harvard,

[00:15:00] and this is just this idea that, well, if indeed we can communicate and cure and begin to refine and modify, these are really good ideas. And if you start from an evolutionary point of view, which says that everything we see around us, all of life is a result of mass energy, chance, and time. It's just chance. It's just randomness.

[00:15:25] Certainly an intelligent scientist in the laboratory can do a better job of redesigning life. And that starts sounding a lot like Brave New World, 1984. And it does seem to me that it really comes back to not only this idea of personhood, but comes back to this idea that if you don't have a creationist perspective and instead start from an evolutionary point of view,

[00:15:51] it makes sense that people would want to try to genetically engineer the human race in a sense to finish off what nature has done and now to have intelligent scientists do it in the laboratory. And perhaps it would be helpful, Kirby, for me to just define genetic engineering, genetic modification, the different specifics there. So genetic engineering is often or sometimes called genetic modification,

[00:16:21] and it entails altering the DNA in an organism's genome to treat or cure diseases and prevent genetic disorders. And it may also involve efforts to enhance the genetic capabilities of individuals, their progeny, and species. And, again, I think it's one thing to deal with disorders or diseases. It's another thing when we're talking about, okay, what kind of child we want, where it's kind of like male order, so to speak.

[00:16:50] You know, what color eyes, what gender would we want our child to be, et cetera, et cetera. When we can get into their capabilities, what's lost with that for all the gains? And, again, from a vantage point of grace, God's grace, and I think, you know, Martin Luther, the whole emphasis on God's love creates the attraction, our attractiveness does not create God's love.

[00:17:15] And I would hope it's not the case that, you know, we have children that have to match what our aspirations for them might be, even genetically, so to speak. I think that's deeply problematic for our relationships. I think it's deeply problematic for our society. And I think, you know, the movie Gattaca that you mentioned highlights that in a really powerful way

[00:17:41] with this kind of, you know, degenerate kind of play on words that they portray and this kind of, you know, biological determinism and a certain kind of biological Calvinism. While I'm a Reformed theologian in various ways, I don't want to somehow get into selecting our biology, shall we say. Yeah, again, and I would make a distinction between using genetic technology to treat and cure genetic diseases

[00:18:10] in a sense to actually redeem some of the physical effects of the fall. People are born oftentimes with genetic defects, and if we can treat and cure those, I think that is quite permissible. That's very different than where some scientists say, you know, with this genetic technology now, CRISPR and things like that, I can rewrite the fifth and sixth days of creation. And so I think there is a real distinction that we can make as a Christian from a Christian worldview

[00:18:38] that the secular world does not make. But let's, if we can, mention that you have some other chapters dealing with, you know, a personalist approach to sex and marriage and then gender, patriarchy, and much more. There's a whole section here that people probably had never thought about in terms of how you would apply this idea of personhood to the idea of human sexuality. How should we do that?

[00:19:05] Well, one of the ideas there that I'm trying to develop is that we shouldn't reduce our view of sexual expression to a matter of sexual pleasure. Certainly sexual pleasure is part of God's creation, but to reduce people to their sexual pleasures

[00:19:27] or simply by way of consent really is troubling to me, especially from a Judeo-Christian vantage point. It's not based on consent ultimately. It's based on a marriage covenant. And so I think that as I reference and riff off of or riff on Immanuel Kant, who has his own personalist sensibilities, the 18th century philosopher from Prussia,

[00:19:53] you know, we should never treat people as mere means, but as ends in themselves. And as Alistair McGrath says, you know, Kant is, whether he's aware of it or not, really drawing from a Judeo-Christian tradition and his Lutheran pietist tradition, you know, to love our neighbor as ourselves. So I should never treat someone as a mere means to my own sexual pleasure ends.

[00:20:16] And I think we need to cultivate relationships, which in marriage certainly will include sexual intimacy and pleasure, but it's so much more than that. And the theme of the book, more than things, including more than sexual pleasure. And that, you know, to play off of the thing with Sigmund Freud, you know, God is not about sex.

[00:20:38] Ultimately, sex is in one sense or another illustrating the intimacy that really is reflected in a non-sexual way of our relationship with God. And as Jonathan Edwards says, the whole of human history is to provide a bride for God's son. So I like to bring in the theological components in addition to the philosophical and cultural points. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we'll get into a couple of other issues as well, not the least of which is things like the end of life.

[00:21:04] But also, how does this relate to such diverse topics as race and immigration and certainly this idea of just war and a number of other topics? So we'll try our best to try to cover some of those as well. All part of the book, more than things, a personalist ethics for a throwaway culture written by Dr. Paul Lewis Metzger. We'll continue our conversation with him right after this.

[00:21:27] In 19th century London, two towering historical figures did battle, not with guns and bombs, but words and ideas. London was home to Karl Marx, the father of communism, and legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon. London was in many ways the center of the world economically, militarily, and intellectually.

[00:21:54] Marx sought to destroy religion, the family, and everything the Bible supports. Spurgeon stood against him, warning of socialism's dangers. Spurgeon understood Christianity is not just religious truth. It is truth for all of life. Where do you find men with that kind of wisdom to stand against darkness today? Get the light you need on today's most pressing issues delivered to your inbox

[00:22:21] when you sign up for the Viewpoints Commentary at pointofview.net slash signup Every weekday, in less than two minutes, you'll learn how to be a person of light to stand against darkness in our time. It's free, so visit pointofview.net slash signup right now. pointofview.net slash signup

[00:22:44] Point of View will continue after this. You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson.

[00:23:14] Talking about personhood and, in particular, personalist ethics for a throwaway culture. It's all part of the book, More Than Things, written by Dr. Paul Lewis Metzger. We have a link to his website. You can simply go to paullewismetzger.com. You don't even have to remember how to write all that out because we have that link on the website. You can find out more about his books, including this book, as well as some of his blog posts and other resources. We do make the book available to you, since it's probably hard to find in a local bookstore,

[00:23:43] in paperback and Kindle if you want to follow those links as well. One other aspect, Dr. Metzger, while we're talking about personhood, would be, of course, the issue of the end of life, the extension of life, or physician-assisted suicide. Because, again, as you point out early on, there is a slippery slope. There is a mindset that says,

[00:24:07] Well, if I could end life before it begins, why can't I end life at my choosing rather than what might be God's choosing? And so, in some respects, this is just one more aspect of how personhood affects this issue of bioethics, doesn't it? Yeah, certainly.

[00:24:29] And you mentioned the slippery slope point, and, you know, it's not always the case that slippery slope arguments always deal with fallacies, because, you know, in any logic class, one learns about slippery slope. It can also be an issue that comes into play with physician-assisted suicide, that if a culture is so focused in that direction,

[00:24:57] there may not be as much attention given to medications that could help ease pain that is required. And so I think that that part of it needs to be accounted for, and is being addressed in certain cultures where that is, again, a predominant emphasis. It needs to be discussed as part of it. And just end-of-life care generally, we live in such a quick-fix society.

[00:25:27] And just in my own studies on the brain and my son's situation, you know, I'm learning more and more about how people have pulled the plug on someone. It's not so much suicide, it's the, let's say, it's the guardian or the medical facility. But they will think that the person's not attaining a quality of life, never will. And they, in a sense, make a judgment way before they have even all the facts.

[00:25:55] So if I'm dealing with the medical community and I'm dealing with people who are not, you know, holding to a Judeo-Christian view, I have to deal with it from a broader vantage point and say we need to give it time for people. We need to give it much more time. And neurologists have told us just how often the statistics are skewed in favor of, you know,

[00:26:17] prematurely ending someone's life who is in a coma or in some other minimal status. I just want to highlight that because that's something we've had to face front and center. And I love how our medical ethicist mentor of mine, Dr. Robert Potter, said statistics only deal with generalities. They don't deal with the individual person.

[00:26:44] And a personalist does not deal simply with statistics but each person before oneself. And, again, you teach in a seminary. I do not, but occasionally I get invited in to give some lectures on that or to teach. And whenever we get to this issue of euthanasia, sometimes years ago I spoke on that. And what almost inevitably happens is I get a phone call from a student saying, okay, I really wasn't paying much attention in your class, and I hate to admit it.

[00:27:12] I know you've written about this in a few places, but I am a pastor, and in a few minutes I've got a couple coming in here, and they want to know whether or not to pull the plug on this child or this elderly parent or whatever it might be. And remind me again what we believe on those issues, and I think it's an illustration of this is always very difficult. There is, as you point out, a good philosophy, and it's when in doubt, don't.

[00:27:40] We all, if we've been in this bioethics area for any length of time, have seen examples of people that go into a coma, that come out of a coma. And, again, if your idea is, well, I want to eliminate suffering, and if I don't really have a clear indication that there is any cognition, maybe we pull the plug. And I think what you're saying there and what you write about there is so important.

[00:28:06] But since we've spent so much time talking about bioethics, can we spend maybe just a few minutes on some of the social ethics? Because that was helpful as well. And you have a chapter on more than racial divisions, race, power, and the beloved community. I've got a booklet, of course, that we've done before on a biblical view on racism, as well as others that relate to critical race theory.

[00:28:31] But it does seem to me that if we're serious about personhood and apply that in the area of bioethics, we should also apply it in social ethics. So how do we go about doing that in a way that honors the Lord? So thank you, Kirby, for your excellent questions and reflections. So when I think about race, you know, we think about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He's one of the inspirations for my book, Discernal on the Vietnam War, where he says we need to move from a culture of things to persons.

[00:29:01] And he talks about property value having more imports than persons. And he talks about our racist, economically exploitive, and militarist society, riffing off of Eisenhower's speech on the military-industrial complex. But all that to say, King was a personalist, and the two greatest personalists of the 20th century are King and Pope John Paul II.

[00:29:27] Two different traditions, but very different contexts. But, you know, King always saw each individual as a person. And while we have to account for our racial differences and the like, we must not reduce people to our racial or our sexual or our genetic, I mean, I could go on the list, distinctives.

[00:29:54] Those are all important, but we need to go beyond that, the emergence, the understanding of that transcendent component of personhood. As David Brooks said in his op-ed about the philosophy that's needed today, the philosophy of personalism, that we reduce people to their buying and selling data, to their genetic or racial configurations. All of that we have to account for, but we have to see each individual we're dealing with as a person.

[00:30:24] So accounting always for moving through the discussions and the challenges that we all face to never reduce people to their skin color or to their background in whatever context, but to always see them as persons. And that has bearing on our political divisions as well, to move toward greater civility. I know you write on that and speak on that on your show, the need for civility. And all these things come into play in that regard.

[00:30:50] And I think Dr. King's emphasis on beloved community is par excellence, that he always saw even those he was in strong disagreement with still as his brothers. And the move toward loving even those we might deem our enemies, a Judeo-Christian value to say the least. How do we apply that then from race to maybe ethnicity or geographical origin? Because you have a chapter, of course, on immigration. And again, as I've pointed out in our booklet on immigration,

[00:31:20] we, on the one hand, certainly want to respect that this particular country, any country maintain its borders and be able to have an orderly system of immigration and naturalization. On the other hand, we are to obviously treat the individuals that show up at our border or at our home or in our community with respect. It does seem to me that that's another aspect of this idea of treating people as persons, not as things.

[00:31:50] Absolutely. And, you know, in American history, we have different ways in which we engage the matter of immigration, immigration reform. I think people on both sides of the aisle would agree that there's a need, you know, generally speaking, and it's complex, but for the need for immigration reform. But I love how the evangelical immigration table frames it in, quote-unquote, a bipartisan way.

[00:32:15] And to your point, that we would respect the God-given dignity of every person and protect the unity of the immediate family, something that Franklin Graham was very concerned for, that we do that, you know, several years ago, and that was a major discussion point. Of course, we have to respect the rule of law, guarantee secure national borders, ensure fairness to taxpayers,

[00:32:39] and account for establishing a path toward legal status and or citizenship for those who qualify and who wish to become permanent residents. I think that covers the gamut of what's required. But every person that we face, that we see them as having, as you were highlighting, inherent dignity and worth, that regardless of what's going to happen to their status in this country,

[00:33:04] that we make sure that we account for them as created in the image of God, have an inherent worth and dignity, and remembering Leviticus and elsewhere to care for the orphan, the widow, the alien in their distress, knowing that they too, as Israelites, were once aliens in a foreign land. Of course, we live in nation-states. It's different. One could say it's more complex with our borders than back then, but the principle still applies.

[00:33:31] Let's take a break, and we will finish off by maybe talking about care for the creation and what about this idea of transhumanism. We'll talk about that right after this. The U.S., like most first-world countries, needs more babies.

[00:33:59] Wife, mom, and writer Peachy Keenan, not her real name, addresses the population crisis in her book, Domestic Extremist, A Practical Guide to Winning the Culture War. She told her audience at the 2025 Natalism Conference that the best and easiest way to raise birth rates is to make motherhood great again. But first, we must make marriage great again. Peachy says it's best for babies if they are born to married parents who are their biological mother and father. If they could, she adds, babies would choose to be with their mother as much as possible.

[00:34:29] If mothers can't be with their children full-time, it's at least better if they aspire to be with their babies and not treat babies' demands like crushing inconveniences or career suicide. Recent surveys show fewer young women see the men they encounter as marriage material. Hollywood encourages this phenomenon. The reimagined Snow White is a political leader who doesn't need a man. Peachy decries the default factory setting of American women these days. Which is to jettison marriage and family in favor of living their best lives.

[00:34:58] She recommends we focus our attention on women who are more likely to want marriage and children. Conservatives, Christians, and yes, Republicans. They should be encouraged, she says, to marry younger. She warns women, even with IVF, your chance of giving birth plummets dramatically as you get older. Peachy has concluded that fixing the population crisis will involve approaching life from a trad direction. Doing things the old-fashioned way. She says, the way to become a trad wife is to be a trad single. A trad undergrad.

[00:35:29] Meet your peers in person. Perhaps attend a Christian or conservative college. Boys coming out of these schools are highly motivated to make themselves into the kind of man one of these girls might want to marry. If babies come, love them well. For Point of View, I'm Penna Dexter. You're listening to Point of View.

[00:35:58] Your listener-supported source for truth. For a few more minutes as we talk with, again, Dr. Paul Lewis Metzger. The book is entitled, More Than Things, A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture. Obviously, when we talk about personal, it is very obvious that that applies to issues like medical ethics and bioethics. It even applies pretty well to some of the social ethics we're talking about. But let me take on some things that maybe don't necessarily come to mind

[00:36:24] and maybe you don't think about in terms of a personalist ethic. And one of those, Dr. Metzger, is this idea of a humane care for creation. But you have the title, More Than Domination of the Earth. You know, I'm old enough to actually have participated in the first Earth Day, and I oftentimes do commentaries about Earth Day. And as a result, back then, a man by the name of Lynn White was arguing in Science Magazine and others

[00:36:53] that the reason we're having environmental problems is due to the fact that Genesis 1, 27 and 28 actually tells us to go out and subdue the Earth. I think a better translation is to have dominion over it. But what it doesn't mean is it gave a justification for the rape of the resources. But rather, what it was attempting to do is to help us understand that we have a stewardship responsibility.

[00:37:23] And so in some respects, even here, if we actually have this biblical view of personhood, we'll act responsibly towards the creation. Is that fair? Absolutely. And that theme of stewardship, I know you've discussed Wendell Berry before on your program with the theme of restraint, and that it's, as Karl Barth said, never to have dominion over, only God has dominion over the creation,

[00:37:50] but to have dominion in the creation, further to your point. So, yes, Lynn White's thesis, historiography, as it might be called, has been challenged at several times, and I seek to engage that, what I take to be a faulty historiography in terms of the traditional Orthodox Judeo-Christian doctrine of creation or creation care.

[00:38:13] And so what is striking to me, if you don't mind me saying, Kirby, is when there was the displacement of humanity within a faulty view of the Copernican Revolution, how it was taken by certain moderns, anti-humanists or anti-humane moderns toward humanity.

[00:38:34] It was actually that diminishing of humanity that led many moderns in the modern period as humans to displace, to abuse nature, to exploit nature. Whereas, you know, the creation account of Psalm 8 says that it's not because of our greatness in comparison to the heavens, to the mountains and such, to the seas.

[00:39:02] It's not our greatness in terms of our size. It's the greatness of God's affection for us that makes us secure. And when we have a security before God as the imago Dei, the image of God-bearers, then we will take care of the creation and steward it well for God in caring for one another.

[00:39:24] You know, one of the things that's so interesting is that we should be at the forefront of wanting to be good stewards of the environment. And yet, as you well know, the interest in the environment and church attendance are almost inversely related. And that is individuals that are churchgoers, Christians, tend to not be involved in the interest in the environment.

[00:39:49] I think part of that is due to the fact that when there was a quick reaction against this humanistic, atheistic idea, there wasn't so much in the environmental movement a desire to come back to a Judeo-Christian foundation, but instead an adoption of sort of an Eastern New Age idea, which I think really is off-putting to a lot of Christians. And I think, if anything, Christians should be on the forefront of being concerned about the environment. Wouldn't you agree? Oh, absolutely.

[00:40:18] I couldn't agree more. And I think that, you know, we must not allow for the criticisms of, you know, a doctrine to keep us from really showing how the doctrine of creation, Genesis 1, Genesis 2, with caring for the creation, stewarding the creation, really should have the proper emphasis, and that we should, as you say, be at the forefront of that consideration. One of the booklets we have is on transhumanism.

[00:40:47] You mentioned that as well, and I love this whole section, More Than Space Exploration, Ethics of a Final Frontier. And the frontier, of course, is not only space exploration, but also this idea of moving towards this idea of a singularity where man and machine, humans and robots and everything all come together. And, again, as a Christian, we can recognize how we can use technology,

[00:41:15] but it does seem to me that, in some respects, that technology is being something that we worship today. And, again, you think that that also is something we should address from this idea of personhood. Absolutely. And so, you know, there is a rightful consideration of technology. But, as you know from Jacques Loulx, the technological society, so often we have this emphasis on technique. And he's not saying, you know, no to technology. He's not a Luddite.

[00:41:43] But he's saying that we must not allow efficiency to dictate our ethical norms. And so transhumanism, if I could just give a definition of it, would that be okay for your listeners? The way I define it, at least, it's a philosophy that advocates for the transformation of the human condition through technology. Technology will be used to enhance human abilities so that human limitations could be transcendent. Those so enhanced would be fundamentally different beings, namely post-human.

[00:42:13] Now, some might define it differently. There's a lot of literature on this. But what I'm really seeking to guard against is a sense of expanding us to move beyond humanity, post-human enhancement, in such a way that can lead to further domination. I like what one figure said, that instead of trying to so much elevate our game, it's to be pouring ourselves out in the model of Christ, who, being in the very nature of God,

[00:42:41] did not consider equality of God, someone to be grasped, but poured himself out. So I think that needs to be the thrust. And I think for many, not all, but for many secularists, space exploration can be an alternative eschatology. You know, the last frontier could be the afterlife, and it can be a new form of salvation, and hence transhumanism leading toward that kind of salvation.

[00:43:05] We have to really be on guard against a movement beyond personhood as already secure before God for eternity in the way that the Judeo-Christian tradition articulates that. Well, if nothing else, you can see that often things that are being discussed in this book are things we've discussed here as well. If you find yourself wanting to get some more information, first of all, we have a link to paullewismetzger.com.

[00:43:32] You don't have to remember that because that link is on the website there, so you can find out more about him. We have a link to the book itself, More Than Things, which has been out since August of last year. Probably going to be harder to find in your local bookstores. That's why we have a link, so you can get it in paperback or Kindle, or you can, of course, get some of the information about that on Dr. Metzger's website as well.

[00:44:02] We've read some of the booklets that we have. We're in the 21st century trying to think about how to apply a biblical worldview, and we always like to welcome to the program individuals that have done their work, thought deeply about these issues. And so, Dr. Metzger, thank you for doing that, and thank you for joining us today here on Point of View. Thanks so much, Mr. Anderson. It's been great to be with you and your audience. We will take a break, and let me just mention the fact that, again, if you would like to know a little bit more,

[00:44:32] this really gets into all sorts of different issues, about 440 pages. It is written by InterVarsity Press. It has great material on so many different topics that we address here at Point of View, from the beginning to the end of life, from close at home and across the globe to outer space, and then some additional comments as well. These are issues that we need to address. We are convinced that this biblical view of personhood is key,

[00:45:01] and we appreciate you listening today, and you have been listening to Point of View. It almost seems like we live in a different world from many people in positions of authority. They say men can be women, and women men. People are prosecuted differently, or not at all, depending on their politics. Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens.

[00:45:29] It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing. You feel like giving up, but we can't. We shouldn't. We must not. As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II, never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. And that's what we say to you today.

[00:45:55] This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos. We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness. Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net, or call 1-800-347-5151. Pointofview.net, and 800-347-5151.

[00:46:27] Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries.