Point of View April 1, 2025 – Hour 2 : A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage

[00:00:04] Across America, Live, this is Point of View, and now, Kirby Anderson. Second hour today, we're going to be spending some time, first of all, talking with our good friend Dr. Gary Chapman about a new book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage.

[00:00:28] Then we're going to get into some of the issues in the news at the bottom of the hour, because after all, Donald Trump, President Trump has said tomorrow is Liberation Day. Some may agree with that and some may disagree with that, but April 2nd is when a lot of those tariffs will be announced, and we'll talk about that as well. Gary Chapman, of course, is best known for his books on love languages, but I might also say that as you get into this book with 31 chapters,

[00:00:52] about 200 pages published by Moody Press, you also have material that I think he's pulled from some of his books on loving your spouse when you feel like walking away, things I wish I'd known before I was married, the marriage you always wanted, and of course, so many of those five love languages on love languages for apology and love languages as a way of life and much, much more.

[00:01:15] An individual that, of course, has had so much success in the various books he's published, selling over 20 million copies. He's been on the New York Times bestseller list and, of course, also has a nationally syndicated radio program on the Moody Broadcasting Network and other affiliate stations. So, Dr. Gary Chapman, welcome back to Point of View. Well, thank you, Kirby. Great to be with you again. Well, this book, I think, in some respects, pulls bits and pieces from other books,

[00:01:44] and this may be more of a kind of book I would hand to a newlywed or for somebody who's really trying to figure out what's going on in their marriage because maybe they're dealing with intimacy, maybe they're dealing with problems with communication, maybe dealing with emotions or apologies. A lot of this was very familiar reading for me because it is similar to some of the other books we've talked about here on Point of View. Yeah, you're right, Kirby.

[00:02:11] I pulled together in this book from the 50, 45 years of counseling I have had and tried to write them in short chapters because I find today that people prefer short chapters, get to the point, you know. But I'm dealing with a lot of different topics that I have dealt with in some of my other books as well. But I think it's going to be a book that's going to help. Yes, a lot of young couples who are getting married but also couples that just want to grow because, let's face it,

[00:02:40] marriages either get better or they get worse. We don't stand still. And so this is a book I think folks are going to find practical ideas that are going to help them move toward a better marriage. You know, Dr. Chapman, also we have quite a number of people that oftentimes are looking for a small group study or a life group gathering or maybe a Sunday school class. At the end of each one of your 31 chapters you have a section which says think about it, discuss it, apply it.

[00:03:09] So that could be something for a small group as well. But let's get into this because you talk about this idea of a foundation of marriage. If you don't get the foundation right, everything else is going to crumble underneath it, isn't it? Well, I think that's true. And I think, you know, so many times in America at least we think of marriage as a contract. You know, I'll do this if you do that. Yes. And the Bible says marriage is a covenant. It's not I'll do this if you'll do that.

[00:03:36] You know, God made a covenant with us, you know, and God always keeps his covenant. So the covenant is initiated for the benefit of somebody else. We wouldn't even be here if God had made a covenant, you know, and with Noah and a lot of others in the Old Testament too. So it's unconditional. You know, we say it's in the ceremony typically in sickness and in health. I'm here for you. You know, I'm going to be here for you. It's based on love. The covenant is based on love.

[00:04:05] Not I'm not talking about the feeling of love. I'm talking about the attitude of love. I'm in this marriage to enrich your life. If we begin to understand that the biblical concept of marriage is a covenant, then we're off to a good start. One of the chapters, or actually one whole section, a number of chapters is on communication. That is something you're known for because you talk about everything from five levels of communication to quality communication.

[00:04:32] And Dr. Chapman, since we're two old guys around the table, we can remember a time when communication might have been a problem in the 60s and 70s, maybe even in the 80s. But then we got this thing called cell phones. And it does seem to me that communication has been negatively affected by those devices more than probably any other particular intrusion into our lives. You know, I think that's often true, Kirby.

[00:04:58] I was talking the other day to a couple and the wife said, you know, we'll be having a conversation. His cell phone rings. He answers his phone. And I'm sitting there listening to him talk to somebody else. So I just get up and walk out of the room, you know. Sad. Sad. It's like we're bound to answer the phone. And I say, let it go to voicemail. You're talking to your spouse. But again, you're talking about the need for us to really have genuine truth talk.

[00:05:26] And sometimes our conversations with so many of our friends, oftentimes even with our kids, is really just kind of fact based or whatever. Maybe even sometimes emotional based, but it isn't genuine communication. So you really kind of take us through some of the things that need to change if we're really going to have a true heart to heart communication with our spouse. Yeah. You know, I think, first of all, we have to recognize that we're married to a human.

[00:05:56] And humans don't think the same way. They don't have the same feelings. We don't have the same history. And so I don't care who you marry. You're going to disagree on a lot of stuff as you go along. Some of it's minimal stuff. Some of it's important stuff. But if we're going to process marriage and have a sense of oneness that the Bible talks about, husband and wife coming together as one, have intimacy in the marriage, then we're going to have to learn how to listen to our spouse and see their perspective.

[00:06:26] Not sitting there loading your guns, you know, and saying, well, I know they're wrong on that. I can't wait until they get through talking, you know, but listening to understand what they're thinking and what they're feeling so that you can eventually honestly say, you know, honey, I can see how that makes sense. I didn't get it before, but I can see how that makes sense. And that still doesn't mean we agree with them necessarily, but it does mean that we now see their perspective. And when we recognize that, we're treating them as a human.

[00:06:56] I've sometimes said to husbands and wives at a conference, I said, okay, guys, would you turn to her right now and just say to her, you know, honey, that makes sense to me. And from now on, I'm going to treat you like a human. Very good. I'm going to let you have ideas that are different from mine. One of your chapters is on change without manipulation. And, of course, you've told the story before that you and your wife are a little bit different when it comes to the issue of organization.

[00:07:23] I've told you before, but it does seem to me that we need to be able to listen. And in some cases, some individuals need to change, but maybe we're expecting too much too quickly, aren't we? Well, I think that's true. And I say, you know, certainly it's okay to try to negotiate things that irritate you, you know. And if you can change things, why not change things? You know, if your wife is irritated by something and she shares that with you, well, why not try to change if you can? But there's some things.

[00:07:53] Your spouse... I think I lost you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there is. Yeah. And so that's where we have to accept the reality. And you mentioned one in my marriage was the way we load a dishwasher, you know. I load it in a very organized manner. Carolyn loads the dishwasher like she was playing Frisbee, you know. And when I brought it up to her, she said, I don't have time to do that. When I'm cooking, I don't have time to organize it, you know. And this went on for a long time, you know.

[00:08:22] I just tried to help her understand that we were losing glasses in the morning because I unloaded the dishwasher, you know. And finally she said, you know, honey, if that is so important to you, why don't you load the dishwasher? That was a solution. Let's take a break. We have more to cover and we are privileged to have with us for just a little bit longer Dr. Gary Chapman. Link to fivelovelanguages.com and also information about the book. We'll be right back.

[00:08:58] This is Viewpoints with Kirby Anderson. You know, we face a battle for truth every day. That is why I was delighted to interview Dr. Jeff Myers of Summit Ministries on his new book, Truth Changes Everything. His first four chapters focus on truth in various ways. One chapter explores the differences between the truth viewpoint and the truth's viewpoint. Another chapter tells ancient stories about truth.

[00:09:25] More importantly, he provides a method to evaluate different views of truth and show how non-biblical views of truth always fail. One of the most valuable sections of the book are the eight chapters that go into detail about how Jesus followers have changed art, science, justice, work, as well as a perspective on so many important ideas. For example, Jesus followers have changed how we value life. Until Jesus, care, charity, and compassion were usually seen as defects rather than virtues.

[00:09:54] That we consider human life valuable and want to help others through the development of medicine and mental health care can be attributed to a biblical worldview. Jesus followers have changed the world of science. He explains that nearly every founder of various scientific disciplines during the scientific revolution was a Christian or at least a theist. Jesus followers have changed the world of art by making the case for objective beauty.

[00:10:17] We can also add the influence Christians have had in politics with the writings that set forth principles we hold based upon law, liberty, and freedom. He concludes with practical ideas and describes 14 ways to practice speaking up in a way that builds truth. If you want to understand today's challenges and want to provide a wise biblical response, I recommend truth changes everything. I'm Kirby Anderson and that's my point of view.

[00:10:46] For a free copy of Kirby's booklet, A Biblical View on Inflation, go to viewpoints.info.info.inflation. That's viewpoints.info.inflation. You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Continue our conversation for a few more minutes with Dr. Gary Chapman. The book is entitled A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage. Quick, practical insights every couple needs to thrive.

[00:11:13] Over 200 pages, 31 chapters broken into various sections with a question and answer opportunity at the end of each chapter, which you could do individually or even as a group. But, Dr. Chapman, let's see if we can get into a couple of others. One is apologies and forgiveness. You've written about this before and talked about the art of apologizing. But first of all, just to get to this issue of forgiveness, a relationship of any sort, whether it's a friendship or a marriage,

[00:11:42] is not going to thrive if there are unforgiven issues and if you cannot be willing to forgive individuals, especially if they seek forgiveness. True? True. Yeah, I think it's one of the essentials to having a long-term healthy marriage. We have to deal effectively with our failures. You know, none of us are perfect. You don't have to be perfect to have a healthy marriage. But we do have to deal with our failures.

[00:12:09] And that means we're willing to apologize when we realize that we've done something that's hurtful to the other person. And then to forgive when they're apologizing to us. But, you know, one of the things I share in this book is just a brief synopsis of a book. I wrote a whole book on the five apology languages. Right. Because we have different ideas on how to apologize. That's right. So he says, you know, to her, I'm sorry, honey. And she's thinking, you certainly are. Is there anything else you want to say? He thinks he's apologizing.

[00:12:39] She thinks he's giving a character report, you know. So, you know, and we were all taught how to apologize, typically by our parents, if we were taught at all. And we did find this about 10 percent of the population almost never apologizes for anything. And most of them are men who learned it from their fathers who said real men don't apologize. We know where he got that. You know, John Wayne, that great theologian.

[00:13:07] So, yeah, I deal with that in the book because I think we have to learn how to apologize in a way that's meaningful to the other person. And when you understand that you likely have a different idea and they have a different idea, because what we're thinking about is if they're apologizing to us, we're asking, are they sincere? And if so, it's easier to forgive them. And so, you know, I deal with also what forgiveness does and doesn't do. You know, forgiveness pardons them.

[00:13:36] We're not going to make you pay for it. I'm not going to hit you over the head for the next three months about it. I'm going to pardon you. And the other is to take away, to remove the barrier that this has created between us so that now we can go forward in our relationship. So, yeah, apologizing, forgiving, huge, huge aspect of having a healthy marriage. Well, again, accepting responsibility and all the issues that are associated with that.

[00:14:00] And, again, I do remember your book on this whole idea of the love languages of apology and offering restitution, requesting forgiveness and all the rest. But another very important section is what you call emotions, anger and conflict management. Again, that's a whole book. I understand that. But it does seem to me that we live as human beings. We're not robots, as you pointed out before. And the emotions are very significant.

[00:14:27] But you can't always necessarily trust your emotions. You need to figure out when you're listening to your emotions whether they're true and to really kind of apply a biblical principle. Correct? Yeah. You know, we don't choose our emotions. All of us have emotions every day, some positive, some negative. We don't choose them. It's just our emotional response to what happened or what is happening or what we think has happened around us. And so nothing wrong with having emotions, even the emotion of anger.

[00:14:56] I've heard people say, well, anger is a sin. Well, the Bible says God is angry every day with the wicked. I think we get angry because we're made in God's image. Yes. We have a concern for right. And when we feel like something is not right, then, you know, we feel angry. But I think we have two kinds of anger. You know, God has only one because God sees everything as it really is. Yes, but we have anger when we simply don't get our way. And that's a selfish anger.

[00:15:25] But either one of them, we have to handle the anger. And that's why the scriptures say, being angry or when you are angry, don't sin. So we're responsible for our reactions to our emotions. Right. We're not responsible for our emotions. They just, they're going to happen. But how we respond to them is going to make all the difference in the world. If we're led by our emotions, especially our negative emotions, we're going to make things worse.

[00:15:51] But if we acknowledge our emotions, you know, one of the things I suggest about anger is, how about putting this on your refrigerator door? A little sign that says, I'm feeling angry right now, but don't worry. I'm not going to attack you. But I do need your help. Is this a good time to talk? And I say, pull it off the refrigerator, stand in front of your spouse or your child or anybody else. The whole family can use this and stand in front of them and read it. You know, it adds a little humor to it.

[00:16:21] But it also says, yeah, I'm feeling angry. I'm not going to attack you, but I do need to talk. And it's a good way to start talking in a meaningful way. Well said. Again, anybody that is familiar with your five love languages certainly would recognize you have a chapter on differences and expectations. But you broaden that to talk about differences in terms of personality, differences in terms of how you process things spiritually.

[00:16:46] So again, oftentimes it is very true that opposites attract and then sometimes they attack. And so dealing with the issue of differences, a very important principle in marriage, isn't it? It really is. And I think we have to come to, as I said earlier, accept some of those differences because they're not going to change. You know, there's some people that just are not wired to keep up with their car keys. And every time they leave the house, they're going to say, where are my keys? Where are my keys? Where are my keys?

[00:17:16] You know, and I don't care how many times you put a hook out there in the garage and say, hang them on the hook. They're not going to hang them on the hook. They're not wired that way. So the best thing you can do is get you two or three sets of keys. Just say, honey, use these. We'll find the others. And you will. Maybe in the refrigerator, but you'll find them. You know. God intended the differences to be to help us, not to hinder us. I mean, two people were exactly alike. You know what? No, no, no. We're different. Two minds are better than one.

[00:17:46] So that's why we need to respect the differences and utilize the differences because some of us are more organized than others. Some of us are, you know, more excited about things and exuberant about things. And they'll pull us into things. Like my wife has pulled me into things I never wanted to go to. But when I went there, well, okay, I came to appreciate it. You know, it took me a while to learn about the symphony because I'm not musical. You know, I didn't know what an oboe was. But my wife loves the symphony.

[00:18:15] And now I appreciate the symphony. You know? And the same thing is the other way. The lady said, Dr. Chapman, I just don't get it. He goes to these car races. They just go round and round and round and round and round. What? I understand why she doesn't get it. But if he loves it, why not do something he loves and do it with him? You know? You don't have to enjoy it the way he enjoys it. They're just doing things together. That's right.

[00:18:42] Let me just mention just before we run out of time that we do have the fivelovelanguages.com. That's one of the places where you can go. Of course, we also have a link to a simple guide for a better marriage. Now, first of all, you probably can find it in your local bookstore. But if you cannot, good friends at Moody have it available both in paperback and Kindle. And so you can find it there as well. But just before we go, Dr. Gary Chapman, this is written really for individuals to go through.

[00:19:07] But because you've had discussion questions at the end, I think this really could be a small group study, couldn't it? I think it can be. Yeah. And I would encourage us couples that are in a group to at least read it and see what you think about it, you know, because it covers a lot of topics related to marriage in a short, as I said, in short chapters and things that are very, very open to or lends itself to discussion in a group. Well, again, we just always appreciate the various books that you have written.

[00:19:37] We appreciate the fact that you're always so gracious to give us time here on Point of View. And as always, I look forward to the next opportunity. Well, thank you, Kirby. You keep up the good work. Again, Dr. Gary Chapman, I would recommend any of his books, but especially that whole Five Love Language series. And there are so many good ones. But if you wanted to get them all kind of compact into about 220 pages and 31 chapters, very short, as you can imagine, then very readable.

[00:20:06] This is a book that I may just be start handing to newlyweds or maybe those who are thinking about marriage. But again, it's also got enough information there that if you need maybe a 2000 mile, 20,000 mile wheel alignment or checkup, that might work as well. A simple guide for a better marriage, quick, practical insights. Every couple needs to thrive. So again, you can find all that information on our website.

[00:20:34] I would be pretty sure that you could find this book in your local bookstore. But if you would like to order it online, we've made it possible for you to do so by going to the website pointofview.net. Of course, we still have that banner there, Anchored to Truth, and our goal for fundraising, which we were able to meet last week. I thought I'd mention that one more time. But when we come back, let's get into it. Tariffs first. Tomorrow is supposedly Liberation Day.

[00:20:59] I'll do my best to try to give you some of the pros and cons, maybe even a little bit of background on tariffs. And then I thought we'd end the program by our friend Jim Dennison, five ways President Trump might serve a third term. I know many of you are saying, oh, please, no. And then some are probably saying, yeah, that'd be a good idea. I have my doubts as to whether any of that would happen. But you've been asking the question, so I'll try to give an answer to it. All that coming up right after this.

[00:21:31] At Point of View, we believe there is power in prayer. And that is why we have relaunched our Pray for America campaign, a series of weekly emails to unite Americans in prayer for our nation. Imagine if hundreds of thousands of Americans started praying intentionally together on a weekly basis. You can help make that a reality by subscribing to our Pray for America emails.

[00:22:01] Just go to pointofview.net and click on the Pray for America banner that's right there on the homepage. Each week you'll receive a brief news update, a specific prayer guide, and a free resource to equip you in further action. We encourage you to not only pray with us each week, but to share these prayers and the resources with others in your life. Join the movement today.

[00:22:29] Visit pointofview.net and click on the banner Pray for America right there at the top. That's pointofview.net. Let's pray together for God to make a difference in our land. Point of View will continue after this.

[00:22:52] You are listening to Point of View. The opinions expressed on Point of View do not necessarily reflect the views of the management or staff of this station. And now, here again, is Kirby Anderson. Back once again. Let's see what we can talk about. Liberation Day, which is tomorrow.

[00:23:17] I will be off because I'm speaking, but I'm sure that Dr. Merrill Matthews will probably get into it in some detail. He'll be with us also on Friday, so we'll get back into it. But this is an attempt by Donald Trump tomorrow to enact what are called reciprocal tariffs because of the fact that we've had a $1.2 trillion trade deficit. The argument that he made is over the decades they've ripped us off like no country has ever been ripped off in history.

[00:23:44] And we're going to be much nicer than they were to us, but it's a substantial money for the country. And the argument coming from the Treasury Secretary is that focus on these reciprocal tariffs. Also, the economic advisor for the White House, Kevin Hassett, who we've interviewed before and actually quoted, said the focus of the tariffs will be on about 10 to 15 countries. So we'll see where that goes. And I'm sure we'll be talking about it for some time.

[00:24:12] Now, is it true that these countries actually have some pretty draconian kinds of tariffs? Well, Jim Garrity, who I quote so often, actually has put together this list here looking at countries. And this, by the way, is something you could probably find if you went out and looked for it, gives a list of countries from,

[00:24:35] and this is about five pages of lists, of everything from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, all the way at the end when you're talking about such things as Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, United Kingdom, Vietnam. And the bottom line is, yes, we do have other countries that are charging on imported goods from the United States.

[00:25:02] And so there is already a tariff war or a trade war that already exists. And Donald Trump is saying it's time to level the playing field with maybe the goal that eventually we get to free trade. Now, let me give you a little background. And then I have two articles, one pro, one con. Two individuals I respect who disagree with one another, but I think try to make the case either for tariffs or against them.

[00:25:31] But maybe just a little history, because lots of times you will have somebody, when they're talking about tariffs, talk about Smoot-Hawley. And you go, what is that? I don't remember my history books covering that, or if they did, I forgot it. And back in 1930, you had what was called the Smoot-Hawley Tariff took place in June of 1930. You have Willis Hawley, who was the representative from the state of Oregon, introducing a tariff bill in 1929.

[00:26:00] Eventually, a version of that, after it had been changed, passed in 1930. Then, at the same time, you also had Senator Reed Smoot from Utah introducing his version, and it passed. Then there was a conference bill, and eventually you have what is called the Smoot-Hawley Tariff. It was something which actually led to a trade war, and a very good article that came out recently by Ed Yardini.

[00:26:29] It's actually a reprint of an article he wrote back in 1985. They've reprinted it because it's like we're here once again. Back then, he was talking about a bill that would impose a 25% tax on all imports from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Brazil. Does that sound familiar? Well, the percentage is about the same, but maybe the countries have changed. And so there are some that have said, well, we've done this before. It didn't turn out so well.

[00:26:58] But Jeff Coyier says that here is some evidence that comes from the former and now the senior advisor in trade and manufacturing, Peter Navarro, who talks about that if you go to certain places, for example, you will see that if you go to Mexico,

[00:27:17] there's an American manufacturing plant that's about the size of 50 football fields, and they're making engines down there instead of here in this country. And so the goal is to actually launch what is called Liberation Day on issuing 25% tariffs on things like automotive imports.

[00:27:39] The argument being made right now by not only the Treasury Secretary, but the Commerce Secretary and the President is that eventually the money that could come from these various tariffs would have the external revenue service actually grow larger than the internal revenue service. And they sort of want to remind you that until we got our first income tax in 1913, the nation actually was funded by tariffs.

[00:28:08] Of course, as Dr. Merrill Matthews has said, probably will say tomorrow and certainly will mention again on Friday, the government is a whole lot bigger now. So trying to fund the entire government on tariffs, not going to happen. But nevertheless, the argument being made here, and this comes from Peter Navarro and also the author that wrote this first article, is that when in the first term the Trump administration imposed historic tariffs on China and on steel and aluminum,

[00:28:35] the argument is we've got price stability, prosperity, and we will again. And so the argument is that maybe these various foreign countries will cut their prices to observe some of the costs. Well, we'll see where it goes. And of course, you also have the fact that there are a number of investments that have taken place.

[00:28:56] If you listened last week, I gave you the short list, and it's a very long list of companies ranging from Hyundai and Apple and others that say they're going to bring various company manufacturing back to the United States to various countries like Saudi Arabia and others that are. And so the argument being made in our first article, which is for these tariffs,

[00:29:22] is that if you look at the United States, it has some of the lowest average tariff rates in the world. And as a result, this would be a way to actually counteract what happened when we had the North American Free Trade Agreement, where you've had, for example, the president of the United Auto Workers arguing that about 90,000 manufacturing facilities left the United States,

[00:29:48] something we talked about back really in the 1980s here and really 1990s, I should say, in terms of that on point of view. That's the pro argument, and I've given you a very brief summary of that. The con argument comes from Dominic Pino, in which he says, look, every free trader has heard it. Sure, we love to have free trade. Sounds nice, but in the real world, it can't happen. Supposedly, free trade is a utopian position.

[00:30:16] He's arguing it's just the opposite. The idea of protectionism is actually backwards. And then takes us through some various arguments. Actually, interesting enough, quoting from Adam Smith. And so he says that protectionism is more utopianism, because, according to him, protectionism says that the natural human regard for self-interest that undergirds trade is actually a disease in need of treatment.

[00:30:43] He says it posits that people need to act contrary to human nature to really thrive, and that therefore their desires and preferences must be reformed. I'm not sure I abide that argument in terms of human nature, but let's go on. Then the agent of reformation, according to protectionists, is the government. And then you have to have the faith that the government can pick the right industries to benefit the good of everyone else.

[00:31:09] And I think you can honestly see that every time we've allowed government, whether it is unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, or elected politicians who serve in Congress or even in the White House, don't always do the best job of picking and choosing. And so spend some time actually saying that politicians have a way of arguing, he says, that the national interest coincides with their own political considerations.

[00:31:35] And he says, but it's not surprising that why domestic steel firms are the top beneficiaries of protectionism in recent years. He doesn't mention that, but you can also talk about sugar subsidies and various tariffs on various goods that are protecting particular kinds of agencies. Donald Trump isn't necessarily saying, I'm going to protect one particular group or another, although he does talk about oftentimes automobiles. He's talking about just across the board.

[00:32:04] And it will be interesting to see how that is the case. He also points out, I think it is nice that he points out the fact that there have been some that have tried to make an academic case for tariffs, and even quotes from an individual, Stephen Merrim, who actually has put together a paper on a user's guide to restructure the global trading plan. And so the argument there might have some validity.

[00:32:30] But his last argument is, you know, the Constitution prevents us from having trade tariffs between states. So what we have here in the United States is one of the largest free trade zones in the world. The entire United States is a free trade zone. And, of course, it might be that, I don't know, he says Massachusetts might like to have trade protection against, say, Mississippi or something like that.

[00:32:54] But we have seen that without tariffs, the United States as a whole has done very well working with all the states together. And so that's his argument, that free trade is really how you live your life, and free trade is really how we live right now within the United States. So what, as his argument makes, would we say that if we think it's valuable not to have states have trade barriers against each other, why do we then say that countries should have trade barriers?

[00:33:23] It's an argument that necessarily I don't completely agree with, but it's the argument he makes. And if you find yourself saying, okay, I've got to think this through a little bit. We're going to be in a trade war. We're going to have tariffs. How do I think about this? And I've given you what I think is one of the best pro arguments, one of the best con arguments, and they're both on the website at pointofview.net. We'll be right back.

[00:33:55] You're listening to Point of View, your listener-supported source for truth. Back once again, as we can get to a question that I get all the time. But real quickly, I understand that we have met the match. And first of all, I want to thank Tony in New Hampshire and anybody else that was part of that. That's at least the name I know at the moment. So met that match, and that is a done deal, and we're moving on with some other issues.

[00:34:18] But a lot of people have been saying, we keep hearing the president talking about the possibility of a third term. We have a 22nd Amendment. Doesn't that end it? And so let's get into this in a little bit of detail. First of all, the 22nd Amendment, no person shall be elected to the office of president more than twice. And no person who has held the office of president or acted as president for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected president shall be elected to the office of president more than once.

[00:34:48] So again, it kind of limits you pretty quickly. Since the argument, Mr. Trump has been elected to the office of president twice, it seems the question's a moot point, right? You'd be wrong. There are some people that are looking around this. Now, first of all, this is complicated. Second of all, I think in some respects, although they're trying to find a way to actually adhere to the letter of the law, they're obviously violating the spirit of the law. But our friend Dr. Jim Dennison put it out today.

[00:35:18] I thought, well, this is probably the best summary I've seen so far. Five ways President Trump might serve a third term. I don't think it's going to happen, but I thought I'd certainly try to answer it because this is the most asked question I'm receiving right now. One possibility they're talking about is someone could run for president in 2028 with Mr. Trump as the running mate, as the vice president, be elected, then resign from office, returning Mr. Trump to the White House. Okay, technically true.

[00:35:46] He wasn't elected as president. He was elected as vice president. But then you get to the 12th Amendment, which says that no person constitutionally ineligible for the office of president shall be eligible to that of vice president of the United States. Written at the time in which they were having such a big deal about a person that is born overseas and not a natural-born individual, I've oftentimes thought that there are two things that maybe we should take out of the Constitution.

[00:36:16] One is that you have to be a natural-born citizen. That eliminates Arnold Schwarzenegger and Elon Musk, not that he would ever run, and all sorts of people like that. Also, the idea of the 22nd Amendment. The people have the right to decide whether or not to elect or not defeat an individual, but those are part of the Constitution now. So it really kind of gets you into, all right, how would the Supreme Court rule then? You wouldn't be eligible to run for president, but you could run as vice president.

[00:36:45] So that's option number one. There's a lot more, but let me get to all the other options and come back and critique them as a whole. So that's the first option. Somebody else runs, whether it's J.D. Vance, whether it's Ron DeSantis, whether it's Marco Rubio, whoever it might be. And as a result, Donald Trump runs as the vice president. I don't see that happening, but okay, that's number one.

[00:37:10] Number two is that Mr. Trump could be elected vice president in 2028. Then the elected president could be declared unable to discharge the powers and duties of the office, in which by the 25th Amendment he would come in. Again, that's got the same problem, I think, as the first one. The third option would be for a person to be elected vice president in 2028, then resign.

[00:37:34] The newly elected president would then nominate Mr. Trump to actually serve as the vice president, and Congress would approve the nomination, as occurred in the 25th Amendment with Gerald Ford in 1973. That one at least could happen, and then that president could resign, and Donald Trump would take office. Pretty convoluted, but that one I think might pass constitutional muster.

[00:38:02] I just don't see it happening either. But you're saying there's two more. That's right. The fourth option would be for the Constitution to be amended to allow a person to serve three non-consecutive terms as president. Okay, now you're really dreaming because you'd have to have two-thirds of the House, two-thirds of the Senates, and three-fourths of what? The state legislatures to approve that, all before basically three years from now. Not happening.

[00:38:31] Very unlikely. And then the fifth approach would be for Mr. Trump just simply be appointed by the president as an unofficial advisor, allowing him to continue to exercise the power of the presidency without the actual title. Now, some of you listening right now say, wait a minute, that's kind of what Barack Obama was doing with Joe Biden. Yes, and this is why, as now you're knowing, we're in la-la land. Some people have suggested maybe Donald Trump could run for a third term,

[00:39:00] and if that were seen as legal, both Barack Obama and him, he could run against each other, and in 2028 you'd have Barack Obama running against Donald Trump. At this point, we are really in no man's land, and I don't see any of that happening. Okay, let me hasten to offer the first point. I did not anticipate back in 2015 and 2016, or even in 2015, that Donald Trump would actually run.

[00:39:29] Then when he came down the escalator, didn't think he would win the nomination, and didn't think he'd win the presidency. So there is a sense in which when you're dealing with an individual like Donald Trump, maybe you just better not make any predictions, but that is certainly one of those issues. There are some other, of course, associated issues, not the least of which is the questions about age.

[00:39:54] That question of age certainly surfaced in the second term of Ronald Reagan. It certainly surfaced in the first term of Joe Biden. Believe me, it's going to surface more and more in the second term of Donald Trump. And one of the things I was saying off-air to my producer, Steve Miller, is the fact that there have been some people in the past that have asked the question, just hypothetically, if we had not passed the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution,

[00:40:23] which was passed after Franklin Delano Roosevelt served more than two terms, would it have been possible for any individual to have run for a third term? And the argument is, well, of course, with the assassination of John F. Kennedy, that was the ending. You, of course, had the partial issue of Lyndon Johnson because he served part of that time and could have run again but decided not to. There was no evidence. Of course, Richard Nixon resigned because of Watergate.

[00:40:54] Jimmy Carter was defeated. Ronald Reagan, I just mentioned a minute ago, because of Alzheimer's, was considered too feeble. George Herbert Walker Bush only won one term. Bill Clinton, by the time you get to the second term, there was a fair amount of controversy showing his opinion ratings were too low to think about him even being able to possibly run for a third term. George W. Bush, maybe, but probably not because of sort of war weariness.

[00:41:21] They mostly concluded that the only person who might have been able to run for a third term would have been Barack Obama, but even then, the bloom was sort of off of the rose because of Obamacare and a number of others. So, whether we had a 22nd Amendment or not, third terms, probably not very likely anyway, but you would think the Constitution spoke to it. So, if you've always wondered, would it be possible for Donald Trump to serve a third term

[00:41:49] in one of these five ways, two of which just don't seem constitutional, or three other ways which seem to really try to violate at least the spirit of the 22nd Amendment are possible, but I still think they're pretty unlikely. So, if you've heard people talking about it, well, there's some of the information that maybe you have all wanted to have, and if you are interested, of course, you can look it up and find the piece by Jim Dennison.

[00:42:16] I think it's in his daily article, and you can read it for yourself, but it's just one of those questions that you have that sometimes I never would have anticipated we'd be talking about on Point of View. But that's why we try to cover just about every possible issue you can imagine. We've talked about out-of-body experiences. We've talked about UFOs. We've talked about a third term for the presidency, which I think is about as likely as you've seen a UFO tonight,

[00:42:45] but nevertheless, we try to cover every possible issue here on Point of View. Every topic is on the table. Sometimes we just don't have enough time to get to it. And since we're out of time, let me thank Megan for help engineering the program. Steve, thank you for reducing the program. Tomorrow, you'll have Dr. Merrill Matthews sitting in, and we'll be back on Thursday and Friday right here on Point of View. It almost seems like we live in a different world

[00:43:14] from many people in positions of authority. They say men can be women and women men. People are prosecuted differently or not at all, depending on their politics. Criminals are more valued and rewarded than law-abiding citizens. It's so overwhelming, so demoralizing. You feel like giving up. But we can't. We shouldn't. We must not. As Winston Churchill said to Britain in the darkest days of World War II,

[00:43:43] never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. And that's what we say to you today. This is not a time to give in, but to step up and join Point of View in providing clarity in the chaos. We can't do it alone, but together, with God's help, we will overcome the darkness.

[00:44:10] Invest in biblical clarity today at pointofview.net or call 1-800-347-5151. pointofview.net and 800-347-5151. Point of View is produced by Point of View Ministries. Point of View Ministries. aid. Montague.