[00:00:19] Welcome to another incredible edition of TechWatch, ladies and gentlemen, where we keep an eye on tech seeing it on half two. Last episode I talked about an apocalypse in IT. The PHP problem has been crazy to say the least. People are saying AI is going to take over the world and no one's gonna have a job and computers are gonna be smarter than people and everything and they want you to believe that there's just apocalypses everywhere. I don't really believe that but let's get into the details with kind of an expert on the topic.
[00:00:45] We're talking to be talking to Pastor C.R. Wiley and he wrote a new book, Man Made is what it's called and that's something that I really think is important for you to keep your arms around. Man Made as opposed to God made right? St. Anthony's Guide to Surviving the AI Apocalypse. To learn more, CRWiley.com. It's an author's website and more.
[00:01:09] But the central question really is how can we benefit from powerful technology while preserving the relationships, responsibilities, and abilities that make us human, huh? How do we do all that? It's a tough road to hoe but we can get it done if we think about things in the proper order. Welcome to the show, Pastor. Well, thanks for having me, Sam. It's great to be with you. Now tell me how on earth the pastor gets so caught up on AI, sir.
[00:01:36] Well, about three years ago I had a sense that this change in our sort of technological environment that was going to come about and had been reading some things. And so I decided to do a deep dive on it, read everything I could, and more or less confirmed the suspicion that I had that things were going to be radically different after the advent of AI.
[00:01:59] So I wanted to make certain that I could help people in my own congregation, first of all, think about it, but also help anybody else that had an interest in reading my stuff. So I've written other books, and when it comes to those books, I focused on kind of economic concerns, especially as they relate to households.
[00:02:19] And so there's an upside, obviously, and a downside to anything, and wanted to have a sense of what both of those things were when it came to AI. So that was kind of the story behind how I got into it. Mr. Wiley, or Pastor Wiley, I've always said that technology is neither good nor bad. It just depends on whose hands it's in. Is that where we start? Well, I think there's a lot of truth in that, for sure.
[00:02:48] At the same time, you know, technology comes with an orientation or it's got an intended use. So I think that if we think about it, it's just sort of like vanilla ice cream that we can add any flavor to we want. We might miss that we're dealing with something that's sugary. So there is an intelligent design behind a tool.
[00:03:13] So when we think about, say, a hammer, you know, the example that you gave, we can use it to hit a nail or hit a head or hit a head of a nail or hit a human head. And in that sense, yes, you know, it depends on who's got the hammer. But the intention is to use it to strike the head of a nail. That's what hammers have been created to do. And so we have to think about that. There's a lot of upside to being able to strike the head of a hammer or head of a nail with a hammer.
[00:03:41] But at the same time, it affects us. It changes us. So like when we use a hammer, I was a framer for a while. Your eye to hand coordination improves. You become more useful to people. You have something that you can provide in terms of a service or, you know, a product that is valuable. And so your ability to make a living goes up. The regard people have for you goes up.
[00:04:09] So there are a lot of positive things that come from being able to use a hammer well. Now, at the same time, there are potential, there's potential for other kinds of parts of your life to atrophy a bit. And there are always tradeoffs. So you can think about that. Now, when you think about using a hammer, what could atrophy? Well, you've just, you know, you've got time that's dedicated to doing what you're doing with the hammer. And you're not using that time in some other way.
[00:04:40] So there are always tradeoffs in life. And I think with the tools that we use, the more powerful they are, the more significant those tradeoffs can be. And when it comes to artificial intelligence, we're already seeing that, yes, it's good for a lot of things. But at the same time, it can, you know, cause us to neglect our own human capacities and abilities and allow those to atrophy.
[00:05:06] And I really want to take this to a spiritual direction, ladies and gentlemen. I know this is a technology show. But I think everything kind of emanates from the spiritual side of things and kind of rolls downhill from there, if you will. Your rights are spiritual in nature given to you by God. And everything goes downstream from that. So St. Anthony provides a model for spiritual resistance and discernment. And I think that's critical here to understand. A lot of people want to go to AI for everything. And they kind of, it's kind of become an idol.
[00:05:36] People literally look to, you know, AI for their spiritual guidance. They look to AI for answers to every question. I mean, that's a huge mistake. And I had a, I don't know, fifth grade, sixth grade math teacher. And he put on the board, cussing is a crutch for conversational cripples. And I bring that up because I kind of think if we're not careful, AI becomes a crutch for spiritual cripples. If we're not very careful, Pastor. Well, I agree. I think that's a great observation, Sam.
[00:06:02] And I think your point about people turning to it for guidance is absolutely right. I mean, that's what people are doing. And necessarily then that means that other places that people have, you know, turned traditionally for spiritual guidance, they're not doing that. They're relying on AI to do that. Now, people might say, well, AI is using those resources to, but sometimes those resources were embodied.
[00:06:29] You know, a person, someone who's wise that you turn to for help, you know, that person no longer is where you go for help. You're substituting a real human being with artificial intelligence. All right. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there's a leader. He's an apostle, one of the 12 apostles for the church. And he is named Elder Gong.
[00:06:55] And he has been speaking out about AI and attending AI conferences and everything else. And Elder Gong calls for AI to pass a moral test, not just an intelligence test. Speaking at the G20 Interfaith Forum in Salt Lake City, on October 17th, Elder Gong proposed, quote,
[00:07:20] humanity's first exam, a benchmark to evaluate AI's trustworthiness. That's interesting. Ethical behavior and respect for human values. He warned that advancing reasoning capabilities has to have ethical safeguards to it before we can rely on it and put our trust in it.
[00:07:44] Anyway, there were six faith-based universities that are collaborating on this discussion. His central guidance says AI should strengthen human effort while preserving faith, work, inspiration, and human responsibility. Your thoughts first, and then I'll tell you what happened when I asked AI what they thought of his comments. Well, I commend the sentiment. I think that the sentiment is really sound.
[00:08:13] But at the same time, I'm wondering about the technical side of that, whether or not that's actually even feasible. When we think about guardrails and artificial intelligence, they're in an attempt to keep the artificial intelligence on the road. But AI is kind of like a Bugatti, and it can just blast right through those guardrails, and it's had a record of doing that.
[00:08:33] So my conviction is that artificial intelligence is really good when it comes to kind of a utilitarian approach to things. You know, you give it a goal, and then it outlines a way to achieve that goal. And if somebody has to be run over in the process, that's just too bad. Right. And so he calls for systems that address these religious questions accurately, honestly, and respectfully.
[00:09:02] And then he says, while acknowledging there are limitations. In other words, he's acknowledging exactly your point, which is, you know, how much we should try and we should work and we should do our best to put this in place. But whether companies will or not, who's going to make the decisions is really the point, right? Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
[00:09:24] If we think that the folks in Silicon Valley are trustworthy when it comes to these matters, I think... God. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, there are a range of reasons why we should be suspicious. But, you know, they're going to go woke on us with regard to those guardrails. They're going to use that particular value system to justify the guardrails that they use.
[00:09:51] And consequently, those of us who call into question some of the fundamental principles that, you know, kind of wokeism is guided by, will find ourselves disappointed. So, but then I'm just still wondering about the feasibility just at a technical level. Well, here's what his point was. Whether we can get there or not feasibility-wise, as you point out, and he brought that up as a concern, and he questions that too. But here's what he says.
[00:10:19] We need AI to support religious service, education, and communication. And what we need is leaders not to sit on the sidelines but be involved in responsible development. So what he's saying is that what you're doing at the table is vital. And that's what really is needed, even though, hey, it's difficult to determine how the outcome is going to look. The fact that you're sitting there and working on it, Pastor, and he wants to work with you on it.
[00:10:46] And he's saying, hey, we've got to have us in the mix as this goes down to advocate for the best we can, right? Yeah, I think that's a good point. When we get back, we'll have you break that down a little bit more. Then I'll tell you what AI said about it, intricately enough. Okay. And then we'll get a little bit more into your book. Hang tight, ladies and gentlemen. We're talking to Pastor C.R. Wiley, C.R. Wiley.com. Incredible book, ladies and gentlemen. Hang on. In the medical field, IT security is crucial.
[00:11:14] Our highly skilled consultants are HIPAA certified and have 20 plus years of experience servicing medical clinics, billing, and supply companies. We offer comprehensive endpoint protection, guarding your computers and servers against all stages of threats. And with our 24-7 monitoring services, you'll never worry about extensive downtime again. Ready to level up your IT support? Call 801-706-6980 today and discover how great IT services can be with managed IT services.
[00:11:51] Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking to Pastor C.R. Wiley. We're talking about his book called Man Made. St. Anthony's Guide to Surviving the AI Apocalypse. C.R. Wiley.com to learn more. So I was talking about this Elder Gong speaking out and saying, hey, we need religious leaders in the mix as this AI continues to get developed and progresses because we really need to kind of have a moral test to make sure that we create guardrails.
[00:12:18] And the real way to do that, whether we're successful or not, depends on, you know, who sits at what tables. And he's really calling leaders of religious faiths to sit at the table and make sure that, hey, we at the least have respect for our religious beliefs and have those religious beliefs articulated accurately. Pastor, your thoughts? Well, like I said, I commend his, you know, statements and his thoughts, and I'm with them. Your book is sitting at the table, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yeah, it's an attempt.
[00:12:47] Sure. And I have had some feedback from people in, you know, that world, AI development, and they've told me that they find that the things I'm recommending, that they agree with it. But that's great news. So tell me about your book. Tell me about St. Anthony.
[00:13:08] Well, St. Anthony was a desert father and really the father of monasticism, which is sort of perhaps odd for a person like me to appreciate since I'm a Presbyterian.
[00:13:23] But in terms of my use of, you know, his example, when I've been asked about it, I've said, well, you know, there are a lot of people who are speculating about the power of artificial intelligence to help us to achieve some of the goals that the transhumanists have.
[00:13:43] And when I, you know, read people like Ray Kurzweil or you all know Harari and Brian Johnson, I thought, you know, these guys are about as far away from St. Anthony as I could imagine. And I thought, well, that's maybe I should look to him as to provide kind of a template for resisting some of the negative maybe consequences or unintended or intended consequences of this development.
[00:14:11] When we think about artificial intelligence, particularly as it relates to transhumanism, that's a whole other subject. And it's not just about artificial intelligence, but AI definitely. Your book goes into that is, hey, right now we think of humans and then AI is two separate things. But many of these leaders have a goal of kind of making you a transhuman where you're I don't know what you call it.
[00:14:33] You're an augmented human or you're a human with AI potential or you're, you know, you somehow mix the two together and and everybody has different kind of ways of thinking how this will unfold. We don't know how it'll be yet, but they really have a goal of kind of living forever and or having a super brain. That's why Trump's kind of changing it from AI to SI super intelligence. And they're really going for this with gusto. And, you know, to you and I at first we laugh and go, oh, those robots look goofy. They'll never be real. But these people really have a goal on this, don't they? Oh, yeah, for sure.
[00:15:02] If you, you know, if you listen to say Elon Musk on the subject or Sam Altman, they they say that the only way that we're going to be able to still have a productive role in the in this new economy is if we merge with AI. And like you noted, there are different ways to think about that. But, you know, in case of say Elon Musk, a neural link where there's actually some kind of physical connection that you have to artificial intelligence.
[00:15:29] So, you know, that's a that's a scenario in which I anticipate all sorts of unintended consequences. And some of those unintended consequences are going to be dehumanizing. So one of the one of the things I'm trying to do with the book is outline a way to remain human in a world that's really full of artificial intelligence.
[00:15:49] And I do believe that that's the future that we face, not just AIs that are living in the digital realm or sort of operating in the digital realm, but but even embodied artificial intelligence through robotics. In other words, in the real world. Right. Yeah, it's going to be inescapable. It already is, you could say. So tell me how the Christian perspective can deal with this. We can deal with this like as a hostile thing and say, oh, my gosh, it's all my enemy. Or you can embrace it and go all the way.
[00:16:18] You can look at it as, hey, they're they're trying to, you know, create the perfect humans or get rid of defects. We can look at it differently as Christians. Right. Yeah. I think the main thing is for us to make certain that the tool serves us rather than, you know, us being made tools of the tool. Yeah. So I always say that on Tech Watch. I say, let technology serve you, not own you. That's right. That's exactly the sentiment I have.
[00:16:43] So, you know, the idea is there has to be something that we honor as human and recognize its value. So, you know, we're made in the image of God and consequently we need to preserve God's handiwork as best we can. And, you know, obviously there are things that, you know, medical technologies are really useful for. And I want to see those things continue to prosper.
[00:17:11] But at the same time, we could see, you know, the kind of the nightmare scenario I start the book out with in which we become more or less the kind of the tools of the tool, as I noted. And I find ourselves being manipulated by artificial intelligence. And that's the sort of thing. I'm a total blind person, sir. I don't know if you know that. I didn't. So the question the question becomes, can neural link make me see? And if so, do I do it? And do I plant a chip in my head to do so?
[00:17:39] And, you know, the questions get a little sticky when you go that way, because at first I say, absolutely not. I'm a child of almighty God and I'm not a man made transhuman at the same time I would like to see. Sure. So it becomes a real difficult wrestle and you got to kind of think about it and figure it out. But this is kind of really what you're talking about. Right. At first, it's logical for legitimate needs. If somebody could get a prosthetic or something to help them or help them if they can't speak or whatever. Of course, it makes total sense.
[00:18:07] But then the question is, when do you cross the line and you do it for different reasons? It's almost like a plastic surgery discussion. When is it really necessary versus when is it for vanity sake? Right. That's exactly right. Pardon me for coughing. But yeah, I think that's exactly the point. You know, I think when we when we think about, say, the development of of plastic surgeries, it was intended to help burn victims and people who had congenital birth defects to operate more comfortably in social settings.
[00:18:35] But, you know, today it's all about breast implants and nose jobs. And that's where the money is. And I think that when it comes to augmenting human beings, it'll start with, you know, the things that you just already noted, things that we really want to help people with, blindness, you know, limbs, you know, people being born without limbs and needing prosthetics to get around and stuff like that. That's where it'll start.
[00:18:57] But we I think we know where it'll go eventually with the money will be with people just chopping their legs off and replacing them with, you know, mechanical limbs and stuff like that. Yeah. You'd be like the bionic man, right? Right. Right. That's what they'll think. Right. And so that's the question is when, you know, and that's kind of the battle. And I think everybody's going to have to make their own decisions along the way for this. But the new book is called Bandmade, folks. And that's really what I want you to kind of think about is that AI is manmade.
[00:19:27] And one of the points that I've always made about this, some people think that the bots are going to take over the world. I don't believe the creation can ever be greater than the creator. CR. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I'm completely confident in God's sovereign ordering of the world. At the same time, in God's governing the world, there are things that we do that displease the Lord and we're punished for. But nevertheless, they can go on for a while and the damage can be real. Yeah.
[00:19:56] So we need to be careful about that. And that's what we need to avoid. And that's why I say that we need good Christian people on the morality side of this thing at the table for discussions and everything else. The AI assessment of this whole thing, when I asked what AI thought of the book and what AI thought of the comments from Elder Gong, who spoke out about this, it said, the strongest point is that capability and trustworthiness require separate evaluation. Amen to that.
[00:20:23] The system can produce sophisticated answers while misleading people, misrepresenting their beliefs, and or encouraging unhealthy dependence. Testing whether it handles those situations responsibly is a worthwhile goal. The difficult part is designing the moral standard and deciding who controls it.
[00:20:46] The credible evaluation should disclose the standards, including the religious and other perspectives, and distinguish respectful disagreement versus facts. Respecting someone's faith should not require endorsing every claim. Also, there's moral behavior and moral understanding, which the AI bot says are different. And producing inethical answers does not demonstrate a conscience.
[00:21:16] And the reason I bring that up is because, hey, AI is admitting that it doesn't have a conscience. And I submit to you that it never will. So moving to the book now, and I wanted to kind of highlight that so people understand. Is your book a fun read? Is it story-driven? Does it just give facts and details? Give me the perspective as I read it. Well, I do have a background in fiction, so I did insert some stories in the book. So I hope it's entertaining. I was intending it to be accessible.
[00:21:46] And I also wanted to engage people imaginatively because I think that if we just get weighed down by the technical details, we'll lose sight of kind of the upside and the downside of how this technology could affect us. Yeah, and you don't want people to stumble over the tech, right? Right. That's right. So like I think about science fiction, I think science fiction writers are conducting thought experiments.
[00:22:13] Much of the time they're looking at a technology and they're saying, well, if this actually ever develops, this is how it will affect us. And these are the potential dangers, these are the potential benefits, that kind of thing. So I wanted to do a little bit of that in the book. What did you learn most writing the book? You know, you start out with a goal, and then when you get it done, you kind of look back and go, hmm, was it what you hoped? What did you learn? Is it different than you thought? Are you more or less concerned than you used to be before you started? Give me kind of the breakdown.
[00:22:41] Well, I think I'm less concerned about some things and more concerned about others. So initially, I had a set of just questions. How does this stuff work?
[00:22:52] And like many people who have seen the development of new technologies over the last 30 years, I've become more and more impressed with the capacities of the new technologies to change the world in really kind of day-to-day ways. In many ways for the better, right? Yep, in many ways for the better. But also the blindsiding, sort of this idea that we just get surprised by certain effects.
[00:23:21] So like when we think about social media, some of the things that are happening, particularly with younger people who grew up with it, were unanticipated. And some of those things have been negative, like attention spans. Like doom scrolling. Right, that sort of stuff. And even, you know, mental health issues that people have had.
[00:23:44] Yeah, because you end up comparing yourself to everybody else out there and everybody else looks great in the scripted reality that these social media systems create, right? That's exactly right. And so that leads to anxiety and insecurities and just a range of things. And then people get so wrapped up in that stuff, their real relationships with other people attenuate and just kind of disappear in some cases. Whereas, you know, you've got some people like in Japan who just never leave their bedroom. They're just online all the time. That's insane.
[00:24:12] And, you know, so those sorts, that's where the alarm bells rang for me. I wasn't so much concerned with robots taking over the world as so much as people becoming more and more like robots. Hey, man. CRWiley.com, ladies and gentlemen. His book is called Man Made, St. Anthony's Guide to Surviving the AI Apocalypse. Can you get it at all fine bookstores and Amazon and everywhere? Yeah, I believe so.
[00:24:42] All right, sir. We sure appreciate you. CRWiley.com to learn more. I'm Sam Bushman for Jay Harrison and the whole team. Liberty.