In this episode, we dive into the growing threat of phishing links, which are now more dangerous than email attachments, and explore the best strategies for securing your inbox. Sam highlights IronScales, touted as a leader in email security solution, and we weigh the pros and cons of traditional email versus real-time communication tools like Slack and other messaging platforms. Tune in to learn how to keep your digital communications safe and efficient.
[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, happy to have you along my fellow Americans and people around the world for
[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: another edition of Tech Watch Radio.
[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We keep an eye on tech so you don't have to.
[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: This half hour is brought to you by NetworkProvidersInc.com.
[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got a friend in the IT business.
[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: How's that?
[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the show, Jay.
[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Sam, how's it going?
[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We just got wacky weather going on here.
[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand it.
[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Wacky weather?
[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: What kind?
[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first off, it was super hot.
[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you guys didn't get wacky weather in Utah.
[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, listen, it was super hot and dry.
[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they're like, hey, you might have some flooding.
[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden it kind of cooled off a little bit.
[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they said, hey, now it's fire season.
[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Fire season, yikes.
[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't have any fires near me but I'm just saying.
[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of interesting how it cools off and then it becomes a greater chance of fire risk.
[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They say it's because of the low humidity but what I find interesting is it was lower
[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: humidity before, I thought.
[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What you guys need is a hurricane just to roll through there and drench everything
[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and you'll be good.
[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we won't have any power or anything if we do that.
[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's true.
[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so no power.
[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take the fire chance, I guess.
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a sprinkler system for your home.
[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, some people out west do that where they can sprinkle it.
[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean for your lawn.
[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean for your actual house.
[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Like they can.
[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, I don't for my house.
[00:01:36] Yeah.
[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: No, and some of the companies that I consult for, they've got warehouses with sprinkler
[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: systems and all that.
[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like mandated.
[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, internally, right?
[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I mean externally to where these people...
[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen these systems where when a wildfire is going...
[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they have those in California.
[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have those where we live because there's just not...
[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean fire happens but it's usually out in kind of the desert or whatever.
[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not everywhere really.
[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying it could never come to your house but that's usually kind of a
[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: California thing.
[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Not in the Utah thing.
[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So far for us, the weather has been fairly mellow for the most part.
[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean even the threats of flooding and the threats of fire that I read about
[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever and stuff.
[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't affect our day to day lives very much for the most part.
[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's good news.
[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But in the IT world, it's looking a lot more shaky than even the weather
[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: today.
[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a new interesting headline that I got from Computer Weekly that I want
[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of talk about for a minute because I think it's really, really
[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: critical for people to understand.
[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the cyber threats are big, bold everywhere, getting worse, all that.
[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody knows, right?
[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: What was that big old outage they had thing called?
[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Crowd strike.
[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Crowd strike.
[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that kind of brought it to everybody's forefront or whatever
[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: recently.
[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But I bring this up because it's ever changing and most people don't really
[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: realize the ever changing nature of things.
[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: In the past, the big threat was, hey, attachments, just do not download, do
[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: not open attachments, attachments, attachments.
[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's still still the big threat.
[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just as big of a threat as it always was, if not even more.
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: However, now, according to Computer Weekly, they say this fishing links
[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: becoming bigger threat than email attachments.
[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Computer Week talking about this and so now clicking on links, phishing
[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and everything else has become even more ubiquitous, more hostile, more
[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: compromising, whatever words you want to use than even email attachments.
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't want you to think that means that email attachments are not a
[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: worry anymore.
[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just as big of a threat as they've always been.
[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But now you've got phishing and so we're just starting to see multiple
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: fronts of attack escalating and the phishing one's a big one, Jay.
[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's true.
[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you we see more of that now.
[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's also because people have started blocking a lot of
[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: attachments. You'll see a lot of corporate stuff where you can't even
[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: send an attachment to somebody.
[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: The only way you can get something is to send a link.
[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And even sometimes that gets blocked, too.
[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think they've gotten really strict about attachments to the point.
[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, if you can't scan it, you know, for example, you try to encrypt
[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: something, all of a sudden they go up.
[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We can't look into this.
[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what it is.
[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We can tell it's something encrypted and so we're just going to block it
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: by default.
[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I see a lot of that in business.
[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, and that is the way for people to do is to do the phishing
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: links. That's certainly more popular now.
[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And just for everybody's clarity, if you're not an IT person, phishing
[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: is like a pH.
[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, don't think of a phishing line, but do think of it as they kind
[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of want to get you on the line.
[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They want to get you to agree to it or think that it's OK and click
[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: on something or, you know, do something.
[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's becoming more I don't know what you want to say hostile,
[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning the payload is even worse to Jay.
[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.
[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Usually what they're trying to do is is spoof you, get you to a spoof
[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: site, put in your credentials and fake you into something so then they
[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: can get a hold of your account and get up to a bunch of mischief,
[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: get into your site.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if it's like your your domain credentials or something, maybe
[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: even get access to your corporate land, whatever foothold they can get,
[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: they'll they'll use it against you.
[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So be very cautious.
[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're after passwords, keystrokes, credit cards, this kind
[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuff, you know, the more they can build the dossier one piece
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: at a time, they're looking for.
[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I bring that up, though, because there's a lot of pushback or fight
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: back in the business world and the IT community to deal with this
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: phishing.
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that I'm involved in is a product called
[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Iron, Iron Scales.
[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And Iron Scales is a product that you can add to email services and
[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not an expert in it, so I don't know anything about it.
[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I just know it's used on a lot of Microsoft exchange servers
[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and stuff like that.
[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can look it up, Jay, and see if it can apply to more
[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: things.
[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it can how wide, you know, how capable it is for every
[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: different email service.
[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there's a lot of different spam assassins and
[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: different tools out there.
[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But Iron Scales is the one that I'm working with the most now.
[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's pretty cool.
[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You install it on your domain, just say Sam Bushman dot com
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: for sake of argument.
[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And Iron Scales just sits there and monitors every email
[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: address.
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't monitor for what you're talking about or what
[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you're doing.
[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It just monitors for things that could potentially be a
[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: threat or a problem.
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you turn it on, so it monitors and can just
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: provide a report so it exists, but it's not really
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: enabled on your account.
[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just it's just watching and documenting for you.
[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But once you turn it on, it'll actively quarantine messages
[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that it thinks are scams.
[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it does a bunch of other things on top of that that I
[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: find pretty interesting.
[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, if you get an email from somebody for the
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: first time, there'll be a little header that says, Hey,
[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: this is Iron Scales.
[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You've never received an email from this person before.
[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, make sure that they're really legitimate.
[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Please pay special attention to this email.
[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And it only happens when you get a message from somebody
[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: for the first time. But it's kind of just a little flag to
[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: say, Hey, remember, you don't know this person.
[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So just, you know, caution.
[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if it thinks something spam and says, hey,
[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we put this in spam.
[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's your spam report.
[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: If you need to get it out of spam, let us know.
[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, click here and you can, you know, you
[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: review or whatever.
[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And all I'm telling is that so that's first level and
[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that's happening.
[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of people have had things like that for years.
[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Google works for example, will do that by default.
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The only problem with Google Workspace is it doesn't
[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: give you a great indication of when it's doing it.
[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't.
[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to go look in your spam folder to know about it.
[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean also like headers from if you go to both when
[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you receive something that you've never received before.
[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you go to send to somebody outside of your
[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: organization, you know, flags, the email address
[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and yellow, and it just tries to warn you and keep
[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you up to date that, um, that things are a little
[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: bit new or different than you're used to.
[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's smart.
[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's wise.
[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's been being done for a lot of years.
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I know there used to be a service too, where any time
[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you email somebody, if they, if they've never had
[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: your email address in their approved list, then it
[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: would send a message back and says, Hey, you know,
[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: we got this spam thing on here.
[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to really send a message to this
[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: person, then you've got to click here and do this
[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and that.
[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I never liked about that is it put
[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that effort on the other side, meaning I'm just
[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to email you.
[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause you asked me to or cause my business
[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: related.
[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't don't put the burden on me to go through
[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: all these hoops.
[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't see those that much anymore.
[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you don't.
[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's my point.
[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're next gen and they're smarter
[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of being like Google and trying to give
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you some visual notifications or, um, you
[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: know, a lot of times it's missed or just putting
[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: something in spam and you don't really realize
[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it's there.
[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, or going so hardcore, they forced you to
[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: do all the work to get the message to go
[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: through.
[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: They're using AI tools now to kind of do
[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: the middle ground, which says we're going to
[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: do everything we can to let you know.
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and we're going to for sure make it clear
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to you, but we're not going to be abusive or
[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: intrusive near as much.
[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So the idea is, Hey, if you get a message
[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for the first time, we're going to make sure
[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, uh, look out if you get a spam,
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to tell you, Hey, you got a
[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: spam and you need to go look at it and see,
[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's not dumbing it on the other side
[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of the sender.
[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but it lets you, but it notifies you
[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that you got a spam.
[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't just put it in spam.
[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and then it's quarantined where you
[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: can retrieve it.
[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can educate the tool and it
[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: gets smarter and smarter over time.
[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: As you educate it, you pull this out of
[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: spam and say, Hey, you know what?
[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: White list the sender and blacklist this
[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: person and this and that.
[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And over time, the AI of the thing of iron
[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: scales gets smarter and smarter and
[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: smarter.
[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's only the baseline of what it does.
[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can teach your users to
[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: understand how it works and get
[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: familiar with it and comfortable with
[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it.
[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And before you know it, I mean, the
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: users are training it all day,
[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: every day, all of them in whatever,
[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, people are linked to that domain.
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But the next step now allows people
[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: like us in the IT world, Jay, to now
[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: send training messages.
[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's what I mean by training
[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: missus.
[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I can send you a phishing scam, but
[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really not efficient scam.
[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's my fake one, but it mirrors
[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: what they're seeing in the world.
[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just not really a scam.
[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you click on it, then I
[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: can have a thing that pops up
[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that says, got them.
[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't have clicked on
[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: this.
[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I can use that, um, to
[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: help train IT people.
[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry for IT people to train,
[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, main employees, regular user.
[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now we're taking real
[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: world examples, slightly modifying
[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: them to where they're not really
[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the scam, but they look as close
[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to it as they get and you're
[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: training employees to now, if
[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't click on it, then I
[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: can say, congratulations, you,
[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you passed the test.
[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't fall for this scam.
[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And especially if I report it
[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: as, Hey, this is scam.
[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And then what companies are
[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: starting to do now is they're
[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: starting to do these tests
[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: periodically to see if they can
[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: get some of their users, not to
[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: get anybody in trouble, but as
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: a training tool.
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look, how effective is
[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it if I click on something and
[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm an employee and all of a
[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: sudden they're like, got
[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you.
[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, Oh crap.
[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's obviously becomes a game.
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it keeps them aware
[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and on their toes.
[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can go, Oh crap, I
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: got caught, but they don't
[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: have to tell everybody else
[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that Sam fell for it.
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The goal is not to expose me
[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and make people look stupid.
[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: The goal is to have me be a
[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00]: little more cautious because
[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: believe it or not, we could
[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: put all the tools in place.
[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We want to, and those tools are
[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: valuable and supportive and
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: helpful and everything else.
[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: However, they're nothing
[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: compared to how dangerous it is
[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for employees that are not
[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: trained in the damage they can
[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: do and how valuable a trained
[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: employee is to stop this kind
[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuff, report it and
[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: prevent it.
[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the second tier of this
[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: thing is really utilizing these
[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: training tools so that people
[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: can know what to watch out for
[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and setting up tests to see who
[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you can basically
[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: reward employees too.
[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if for example, you
[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: email a test out and let's say
[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that 100% of your employees
[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: pass it.
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: They all report it.
[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: This thing is spam, man.
[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody falls for it and
[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: report it.
[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You can flat out say, you
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: know what guys, you guys have
[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: done so awesome on our security
[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: testing, you know, we're
[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: having a pizza party for
[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: lunch today, man.
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys.
[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Good work.
[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And it can become a positive,
[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: not just a negative or not just
[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: a gotcha or a downer or
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever.
[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can have incentives
[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: along the way.
[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You can reward individual
[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: employees or teams of
[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: employees groups or whole
[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: companies or whatever.
[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And it becomes a real valuable
[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: tool for training on top of
[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: just, hey, we can let, you
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: know, take care of whatever
[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the spam is.
[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But it becomes a proactive
[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: tool for training and for
[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: education and to anyway,
[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it's pretty neat.
[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was spending more of my
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: time getting my clients on
[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: this iron scales system.
[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying it's the
[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: only one out there.
[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the one I'm the most
[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: familiar with that's taken
[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: things to a real new level
[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: though, Jay.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is pretty cool.
[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, going back
[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to how we don't see that
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: where people would send
[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: emails back and say, hey,
[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to verify or
[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever.
[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: People are making, and I
[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: say people, I mean the IT
[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: industry and everybody
[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: involved, Microsoft, Google,
[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: anybody, they're making big
[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: strides in this stuff.
[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the
[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: things that we've seen
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: recently in the last couple
[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of years is a big push for
[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the SPF and the DKIM links
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and registries on everybody's
[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: email.
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the sender policy
[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: framework and domain keys
[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: identified mail system where
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: emails getting really
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: verified.
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You're also seeing a lot
[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: more encryption in email by
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: default and completely
[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: transparent to the user.
[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's helped
[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: with a lot of spoofed
[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: mail and things like
[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that.
[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that that has made
[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: email system better, I
[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: think.
[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But you still have to watch
[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: out for these gotchas.
[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's great.
[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the more we can
[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: do to where the consumer
[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't have to focus on
[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it is good.
[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I support all the AI
[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and I support all the
[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: intelligence we can build
[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in.
[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What I don't really
[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: support a lot of is when
[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we ratchet up hassles,
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: though, for the consumer
[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or the average employee
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: towards just a pain in
[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the derriere to get
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: anything done.
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: All on this altar of
[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: security.
[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We've gone too far not
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: aware.
[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Most employees, they don't
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: mean harm, but they're
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: going to do their very
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: best to fight it and
[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: push back because they
[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: just want to get their
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: work done, Jay.
[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not careful,
[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: if you do too much for
[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and it doesn't do a good
[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: job at it, then you get
[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the employees mad and
[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the employees almost
[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: become just as much of
[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a problem as the real
[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: problem was you were
[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to solve because
[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: now employees are trying
[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to disassemble this
[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: thing or circumvented
[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or work around that
[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: or do something so
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that it doesn't stop
[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: them from their daily
[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: lives.
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So what I love about
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: this iron scales is
[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: this sweet spot between
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, we'll do as much
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: for you as we possibly
[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: can by all means.
[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll leverage AI.
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll have spam, you
[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: know, whitelist black
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: list will automate as
[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: much of this as we
[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: possibly can.
[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But we need you consumer,
[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you employee, you
[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: average email user to
[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: be involved here.
[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to train
[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you and provide tools
[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's super easy for
[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you to get good at it.
[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's
[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: really where the
[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: latest innovations
[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in the success is
[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: going to come from
[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to take this to
[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: the next level, Jay,
[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: because now I'm not
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: fighting it.
[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's kind of my
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: friend.
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I see something
[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: spam, I can say it
[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: is spam.
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I see something
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: not, if I need to
[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: get something out of
[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: my spam folder,
[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm notified that
[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it's there.
[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, I'm just
[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: dang it. I'm not
[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: getting this email
[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever.
[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's in spam
[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the whole time or
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever.
[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the most
[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: frustrating things
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: about email that
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I know of,
[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the biggest frustration
[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of anything is when
[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to do
[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: something on a website.
[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Log in, make a change,
[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever it be,
[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and it depends on an email.
[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't get
[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that email.
[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, clearly it's
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: not my spam
[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and I don't have it.
[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have no good
[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: way to resolve this.
[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's becoming
[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the huge,
[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the biggest problems,
[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I should say.
[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That we're experiencing.
[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm hoping in the next,
[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, next level,
[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: if you will,
[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that email can get
[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: some kind of a way to say,
[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, is there a way
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: for me to know
[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: if it was sent or not?
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And if so,
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: where did it get stopped?
[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And they don't have
[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that completely
[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: in most email systems.
[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Microsoft has some of that
[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can trace things
[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and the more advanced
[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: the email service is,
[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the more that's available.
[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But eventually I'd like
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to see that because it's like
[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: what do I do?
[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And how do I,
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: if I need to log in
[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: somewhere or make a change
[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: to something and I've got
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to have this email
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I've got to have this code
[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to do it?
[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: What do I do if I just
[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: don't get it, Jay?
[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's some of the
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: the more aggressive
[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: spam filters.
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We see this sometimes
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: with Gmail where
[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it thinks it's so solidly
[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: positive that this is spam
[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that it doesn't even send
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it to a spam box.
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It just blocks it
[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or just, you know,
[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just nukes it,
[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just sends it to null.
[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's nothing.
[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What if I need that?
[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it does happen
[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: every once in a while
[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of systems
[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: will do this.
[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But those things happen.
[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There can also be routing
[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: issues or other things
[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: where, you know,
[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you have an email
[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that's going through a forwarder
[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because it was a previous
[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: employee's email
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're trying to get
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: access to this thing
[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever.
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And there can be any number
[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of reasons why and things.
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And also I've seen this before
[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is this is
[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: frustrating too in the same
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: vein of what you're seeing
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is somebody sends
[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: an authentication code
[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's really on their end.
[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Their systems are slower
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: whenever and it may take two,
[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: three, five minutes
[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: before that thing comes through
[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and they have a five minute,
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, time out window
[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: where they're already
[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: counting down the numbers.
[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But their system is taking
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: three minutes to send it out,
[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and you're kind of
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: sweating and going,
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what the heck?
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Where does it go?
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's it's problematic.
[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.
[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And anyway, I don't mean
[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: just to complain.
[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought my whole point
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: of this, though, is to say,
[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: look, guys, understand
[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you've got to watch out
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: not only for attachments,
[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but you got to watch out
[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for these phishing links
[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and links in your email.
[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Do not click on links
[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: unless you know for sure
[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: what it is, who it's from,
[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever you're comfortable
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: for sure, because otherwise
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you right now
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's the biggest hole.
[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And the biggest mistake
[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: is with employees
[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: literally aid in a bet
[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: by participating
[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: without meaning to.
[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so iron scales
[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is taking these
[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to the next level
[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to training
[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and everything else.
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying iron scales
[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: is the only one, Jay,
[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's one of the bigger ones
[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that have really taken this
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to the next level.
[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Google and others have tried to do it
[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: where they do it all for you.
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's where I'm telling you
[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they introduce more
[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: frustrations than good.
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: An example of that
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: is if I try to email
[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly how it is,
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's certain emails
[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that if I try to email
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Google won't even pass them through.
[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So if it's I try to send to myself
[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or if I try to this
[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: or I try to that or
[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: then Google stops it,
[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, trying to help me.
[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But in a way
[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that makes things worse too,
[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because there's valuable reasons
[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to do things like that.
[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I said to myself
[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of times when I
[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: give an example with a CRM,
[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for example,
[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm BCCing myself
[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so that it hits in my
[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in my notes areas of my CRM.
[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Or sometimes I email myself
[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: reminders to do something
[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever.
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And but a lot of times
[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Google will stop
[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of those things.
[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I can give you an example
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: where it's being too helpful.
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say, for example, that
[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you are on another list
[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: like say marketing
[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: at whatever your domain is
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and you hit reply to all
[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and you actually wanted
[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to go to that marketing
[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because that's part of the group.
[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It will see that
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you're already on that list
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and filter that out,
[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: even though there's other people
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: on that list that you would want
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: it to also go to.
[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But because you're on that list,
[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it thinks, oh, well, we're not
[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when I hit reply at all,
[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm only going to send
[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to the other people
[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or the other contacts
[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that are on this distribution.
[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it does some things like that
[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that you got to watch out for.
[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the problem is,
[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, a lot of people
[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: are moving away from email
[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the frustrations
[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and the concerns and the spam
[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and all the things
[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're experiencing.
[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you've got Slack
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and you've got Telegram
[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and you've got many other choices.
[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: People are using
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of times they're using Zoom
[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of these chat streams
[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: on Zoom or they're using Slack
[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: or, you know,
[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Microsoft Teams
[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and people are moving away
[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: from email for a lot
[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of these reasons.
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And the sad part to me is
[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: email, believe it or not, for me.
[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe I'm just old school
[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's my problem, I guess.
[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But email for me is one of the best ways
[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: because I can look stuff up
[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: easier than most systems.
[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I can find things easier.
[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I can, you know, forward it.
[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I can store anyway.
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: To me, email has real benefits
[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're losing on this altar
[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: of going to something else.
[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay, I agree 100 percent.
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I really use email a ton.
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I try to almost make it
[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like my my inbox
[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and kind of my workflow for work
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of personal stuff, too.
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Although sometimes
[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it can get daunting.
[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, sometimes you get so behind
[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, struggle with it.
[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like yesterday, I remember yesterday
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably cleared five,
[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: six hundred emails from my box.
[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, man, that's great progress.
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's like another
[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: nine thousand to go that is still unread.
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a little frustrating.
[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It gets daunting.
[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's still,
[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, one of the best systems.
[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that's old school.
[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a lot of people
[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: are just using text or Slack
[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: or Teams or whatever they're doing.
[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But I still think email is
[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the best productivity systems
[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: for work around
[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that's been designed so far.
[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And really, the test of time is what has
[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, it's been around since,
[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the at least the early 90s.
[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's got decades of of use in it
[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and nothing really has surpassed.
[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Google thought that
[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: like Google Wave was going to pass it
[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: or, you know, whatever Facebook
[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: was going to just do away with email.
[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But then none of that has really happened.
[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really it has the sticking power.
[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And part of the reason that it does
[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: not only is it so easy,
[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but each communication is separate.
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And so everything is not
[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily just a thread
[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and that has real value.
[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You can bring, you know, have attachments.
[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You can have links.
[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You can do things now.
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people would say,
[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: well, you got all that Slack and Teams
[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of these other things.
[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And my response is, yeah, kind of.
[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it archives those things,
[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's not just the same
[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to look up or preserve.
[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's harder to deal with people
[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: inside and outside of your organization.
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Email doesn't care.
[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So if I have a Slack channel,
[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it might store all this cool stuff for me.
[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But what about dealing with people
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: outside of my organization?
[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: What about people
[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that don't want to join my quote group
[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: or my channel or my whatever
[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you want to call it and stuff?
[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And an email doesn't
[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: don't have all those parameters to it.
[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, there's lists and things, but
[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to worry about,
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, are you up that in or out?
[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you an insider, an outsider?
[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you this or you that
[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: for all those things?
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I know a lot of people are leaving email,
[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but I but I think that it's kind of a regret time.
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll give you another last example.
[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If I quit my email,
[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I can move my email
[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to a different provider.
[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I can download my email in certain ways,
[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and I know it's not as easy
[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: as it can be or could be.
[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They can make it easier.
[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: If I have somehow,
[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, got an email service
[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: where I've got some of the files on my computer,
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I can get that stuff.
[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you quit teams or you quit,
[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: say, Slack or one of these services,
[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: right, you know, your company quits them,
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but you're just done.
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have any of it.
[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it can be hard to export everything
[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that you need out of there, too.
[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot harder than, you know, email.
[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You can if you have an account,
[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: even with a Gmail account or something,
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you can usually download Thunderbird
[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: or something and download all of your email
[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: out of there into something.
[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we're oftentimes if you switch services,
[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you can pop it or connect to the other email
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and and, you know, mirror it or there's ways.
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. But if you're on that,
[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying they don't need to improve those ways,
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm just saying at least
[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: if we know where some of these other systems
[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that I see, it can't really be done very well.
[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're using Slack or Telegram
[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: or teams or these, you sometimes
[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen where sometimes somebody's
[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: delete a channel accidentally
[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's just no recourse.
[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's just gone, you know,
[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're like there's a lot of work
[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and data in that thing.
[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's just gone.
[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I mean, I realize
[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: there's other benefits that,
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, email is not a real time thing.
[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of people think
[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that's kind of a problem to me.
[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a blessing.
[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's almost a real time.
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's what I mean.
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a blessing because if I really want
[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to respond real time and pay attention,
[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's as real time as it is
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to get your code to log into something
[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: before it expires in five minutes
[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: or seven minutes or whatever.
[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's real time enough.
[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I send you an instant message,
[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it might be there.
[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not so real time though
[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that I have to really,
[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in other words, the pressure
[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of these other systems
[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that are real time make you believe
[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you've got to just focus on that.
[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like an ADHD problem a little bit.
[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it can be like texting
[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of these other things.
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But if I send you an instant messenger,
[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, it'll be there within a second maybe.
[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But if I send you an email,
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still going to be there
[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: in 15 seconds or something.
[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not,
[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not that unreal time.
[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but the pressure on the person is different.
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're right.
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you can get back to it when you're ready.
[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when they can see that I'm online
[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they can see that man Sam hasn't responded,
[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but he's at his computer for heck sakes.
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And okay, when you can know all those things about me,
[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: they can say, well, that's a great accountability.
[00:24:12] That's the blessing though.
[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It is and it's not, right?
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is the blessing of email
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: because if I say, hey,
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna work on email at 7 a.m. and 2 p.m.
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm gonna dedicate an hour or whatever to it,
[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I can just, I can move my day around those things
[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and get back to things.
[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas instant message,
[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you just have to be on it every second of the day.
[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You feel like you have to, maybe it's not true,
[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's the expectation demand that's kind of the issue.
[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Look, phishing links and attachments are disaster
[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're not very, very careful.
[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Iron scales and other solutions are the answer.
[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, ladies and gentlemen,
[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks so much for being alongside with the ride.
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: NetworkProvidersInc.com,
[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you've got a friend in the tech business.