[00:00:07] We tried to be a normal talk show once, worse two minutes of our lives. The Kate Dalley Show starts now. We live in a cynical world. A cynical world. And we work in the business of tough competitors. I love you. You complete me.
[00:00:29] Perfect marriage is, I'll tell you what a perfect marriage is. A perfect marriage is an imperfect husband and an imperfect wife who absolutely refuse to give up on one another. If there's any young girls here tonight, you get you a good hunter and a gatherer. I mean it. You don't want somebody that you got to tend to.
[00:00:50] I dated some of those. I dated a boy that had hair down the hair and he was an artist. He kind of looked like my sister. He was pretty cute and he did not own a car. He had a bicycle and had a sticker on it that said, burn fat, not oil. And he said, you know, if we get married, I think I'd like to stay home with the children and you can make the living. And I said, it's over.
[00:01:20] Welcome to Kate Dalley Show on a Friday. So glad to have you listening. And it's a big treat today because I have Dr. Warren Farrell with me and he's been on the show before and I've really enjoyed talking with him. He is just, well, let me just say just a little bit. First thing to welcome him. Hello, Warren. How are you? I'm doing very well.
[00:01:48] I'm so glad you're with me. Prominent political scientist, author, very popular books, The Boy Crisis. I know you've probably heard of that one and rolemate to soulmate. And he's also obviously PhD has been chosen by Financial Times of London as one of the world's top 100 thought leaders. Initially, you were a supporter of feminism and then started to kind of realize what was going on in feminism, which is so fascinating.
[00:02:16] Yes, I was on the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City and spoke all around the world on the importance of women's liberation for secure men. And I still support the importance of the empowerment of women and women. But when I was doing that, at the beginning, at least, there was a balance between the part of feminism that was I am woman, I am strong and the part of feminism that I am woman, I've been wronged.
[00:02:44] And it drifted over to I am woman, I've been wronged more and more. And men as the oppressor, men as part of the patriarchy, men as earning, having male privilege, male power, male being, having male toxicity. And that all was just completely inaccurate. And it also, you know, just ruined the relationships between men and women.
[00:03:13] And I started to oppose that. And, you know, I remember the first day on the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City. And I'm sitting around at the board meeting and it's the early 70s. And I've been noticing that there's an increase in divorces. And the first research started to be published on what was happening to children of divorce. And they found that the ones that did not have fathers involved afterwards were doing worse.
[00:03:42] But and so I brought this up to the board members and there was sort of absolute silence. And finally, one courageous woman spoke up and said, you know, Warren, do you realize that we want our now members want to have the choice as to whether or not the father is involved after divorce?
[00:04:03] If they made a bad choice in the bad marriage and they want to admit a new guy and he lives in an out of state and they want to move there out of state, they should have the freedom to do that. That's what women's rights are about. And I said, no, women's rights are about the ability to make the decision as to whether or not to have children. But when you choose to make that, to exercise that right, you make the decision to be responsible to your children and for your children's needs to be put first.
[00:04:32] And then there was another long silence. Well, yeah, exactly. And they said, well, you know, almost all of your income comes from referrals from us and other feminists around the world. And so for speaking engagements. And so, you know, why don't you maybe you acknowledge yourself more and that this is only the early research. Maybe these kids just turn out fine after a number of years. And I said, fair enough. And I started doing more research.
[00:04:59] But the more research I did, the more I found ultimately by the time I got to the level of writing the boy crisis in 2018. By that time, it was really already clear that at least 55 very clear measures that boys and girls that had father involvement after divorce, significant father involvement, did better on more than 55 measures.
[00:05:27] And so including, you know, the boys in particular, when they have a lack of father, that's the single biggest predictor of suicide. This doesn't mean a boy without a father is going to commit suicide, but it means that among boys that commit suicide, the dad deprivation was the single biggest predictor of that.
[00:05:48] And, you know, as I said, 54, 55 other major areas like this, you know, that any parent in her or his right caring mind would want to want to do everything possible to prevent. Sure. Oh, 100 percent. You know, it was interesting. I did a search for songs about men. We're going to talk about young men in just a moment. But I did a Google search and this was very, very telling on the songs right now or today, you know, in our time.
[00:06:18] Man in the mirror, meaning you got to make a change. It's a man's world. The man I want to be. I'm just a guy. Better man. You know, monsters. Boys don't cry. And coward of the county. That's what comes up when you look for songs about men. Songs about women. I am woman. Hear me roar, right? That song. Confident. Confident. Respect. Girl on fire. Independent woman. Runs the world. I'm every woman. Survivor. Flawless.
[00:06:47] Superwoman. Roar. Strength of a woman. Isn't that telling? Wow. Wow. How sad. Yeah. Deeply sad. And, you know, wonderful on the female part. But except, you know, where it implicitly puts down men. But so deeply sad the way we're portraying boys today. And the challenge is the degree to which boys are taking this in.
[00:07:13] I was doing, a film crew came out to film me a couple of years ago now. And I was standing in the middle of a stream on a rock. And the film crew was out doing this. And I was talking about how boys in high school, what they experience while they're in high school about, you know, hearing that the future is female and things like that.
[00:07:38] And so at that time, I'm seeing some guy that looks like he was a high school kid walking by. And I signal, and much to the camera producer's dismay, I asked him to come over and join me for a moment. And I said, you know, I explained what we were doing. And he said, oh, yeah. And he said, you know, I said, are you, am I judging correctly that you're in high school? And he said, yeah, I'm a sophomore in high school.
[00:08:06] And he said, do you, I said, what do you hear about boys in high school? And he said, well, first of all, I'm in a private school, an all-boys school in San Francisco. And I said, I'm thinking to myself, okay, so he must get a much better message about boys and being in a private all-boys school. And nobody to disagree with him.
[00:08:28] And so he says, no, what I hear is that masculinity is toxic and that the future is female and that I'm part of the patriarchy. And this and and the patriarchy is designed to oppress women and benefit men. And he said, you know, I sometimes just wish I wasn't even born a male. And I just sort of, my heart just sort of, you know, just cried for him.
[00:08:56] And I said, you know, so I'm picking up also and tell me if I'm, you know, anything that you said, he's on camera now. I said, anything you say, we can just eliminate. And I said, you know, are you, I sense that you're heterosexual. Is that accurate? And he says, yes. I said, do you have a girlfriend? And he said, yes. And I said, well, what happens when she, when you talk to her about this? And he looked at me and he said, I don't talk to her about this.
[00:09:26] She's a feminist and she would just, you know, she'd break up with me. And I said, oh my goodness. I said, well, are you thinking about possibly marrying her? And he goes, yeah, possibly. And I said, would you be open to talking with her about this before you get married? And he went, obviously having never thought about this before. I guess maybe I should.
[00:09:54] Meaning that you're, I'm picking up from you, Dr. Farrell, that maybe that's a good idea. Right. But not, it wasn't my idea. Right. And so it was like, and I said, you know, I just, I walked away from that, you know, feeling. And he said, gave us permission to put all that on camera. And I just walked away from that. And so, you know, deeply said here, this is what he's learning in an all-male private school.
[00:10:21] So I said, I live in a place called Mill Valley. And so there's some, a couple of major public schools in the area. And he says, oh, most of my friends are from those public schools. And they all say the exact same thing I'm sharing with you now. And so we all talk about it among ourselves. But, you know, we're all afraid to talk about it with our women and friends because they're almost all feminists. Oh, that just breaks my heart. It really does. I've got boys and it just breaks my heart.
[00:10:52] And I'm looking at this, this culture in media and in song, obviously, and TV. And they're told that they're expected to go out and to provide, right? And I know they feel that inner need that they're going to have to do that. And there's a lot of pressure to do it in the million-dollar scope, you know, with these young girls. But I feel like it's popular for girls to say, I'm a feminist.
[00:11:17] And sometimes I don't even know if they really understand what that even means and how it was to destroy the family. I mean, the whole heart of, I think, the feminism culture was to kind of dismantle the family. Do you think they even know what they're talking about? Or is it just popular to go, I'm a feminist, and then the guys go, okay, I don't know what to say to that? Yeah, sort of a little bit of both.
[00:11:40] There was right even from the very beginning of when I was on the board of NOW, there were many, many members talked about the importance of destroying the nuclear family because it was part of the patriarchy. It was a system designed to oppress women. And so that was very significant. Now, I was in New York, and New York is more, you know, left-leaning.
[00:12:03] And so there were a higher percentage of those types of feminists that were there, whereas many women outside of New York and in rural America, if they took anything from feminism, it was like, you know, I should be able to get a job outside the home if I want to. And that part of feminism that opened up the world to, you know, a good number of the women in my high school graduating class were extremely bright.
[00:12:31] And but nobody even suggested to them that they be, you know, that they consider being a scientist and so on. And that part of feminism, I think, really was opened a lot of doors for a lot of very confident women that I cared about. We're going to come right back more with Dr. Warren Farrell when we come back. You're not going to want to miss this. Be right back. Hey, everybody.
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[00:14:28] All right. Welcome back. You're listening to the Kate Daly Show. So happy that you are, too, on a Friday. And I have Dr. Warren Farrow, which makes it very, very exciting because he's written some amazing books. Author of over nine books.
[00:14:57] It's Rolemate to Soulmate and The Boy Crisis. Very famous for these books. And, you know, it's not an easy thing to talk about out in the world right now because it seems like the world only wants to talk about things only in one way. And I really appreciate his candor and I appreciate him really talking about women and men and the importance of fathers, the importance of men. I totally agree. And so welcome back.
[00:15:25] And, you know, Warren, you told a story on my show and I've never forgotten it. Can you retell that particular story about the importance of men and women, what they bring to the table? Yes. They each bring to the table very different styles of parenting. And it's really important for there to be ultimately what I call checks and balance parenting, where the mom and dad both understand the value of the other one's parenting.
[00:15:52] And so, you know, one of the things you often, when I was doing the interviews for the Boy Crisis book, one of the stories I heard was a father and mother telling me that they had a son. And he oftentimes didn't like to eat his vegetables and particularly his peas. And so the father would say some version of, you know, you can have your dessert when you finish your peas.
[00:16:21] And the boy would sort of plead with the mom, well, mom, you know, if I have a few more peas, then could I have dessert? And, you know, mom would look at the dad and say, well, you know, we shouldn't be so mean like that. Let him have a few more peas. And then he can maybe finish his dessert. Dad said, no, let him finish his peas before he has his dessert. And so this is oftentimes a dynamic between mom and dad that's very different.
[00:16:50] And we now have very, I started to look at what there was in terms of actual data on this. And I found that when children are under mom supervision, they set boundaries that are earlier. That is, bedtimes that are earlier. So mom will more typically set a bedtime at 830. Dad will set a bedtime at 9. So you think that from that on the surface that that means that, you know, dads are more lenient than moms.
[00:17:19] But what the study found was that when children are with their dads, they get to bed earlier than they're with their moms. And so how is that? And so what the study found was that as 830 came, the children would say something like this to their moms. Mom, you know, I didn't finish my homework yet. You don't want me to go into school without my homework being done. Do you?
[00:17:47] And mom would say, well, you did spend an hour and a half on the phone with your girlfriend. And I did tell you to get off to make sure you do your homework first. And you sort of waved me away. But yes, you're right. I don't want you to go into school without having done your homework. Okay, don't do that in the future. But what happens with the mom is in the future, she's more likely on average, and some moms are like dads and some dads are like moms.
[00:18:13] She's more likely on average to say, once again, I think I told you, sweetie, the last time that you need to get off the phone sooner. But again, yeah, all right. I don't want you to go into school without doing your homework. Dads will do the same type of thing the first time. But once they've warned the child, the dad will say, I told you the last time that you needed to get off the video game.
[00:18:41] You know, before that, you need to finish your homework before you do that. And so now you've disobeyed that, so you go into school tomorrow without doing your homework. That's the consequence. And so what no one gets from that is that the child that is required to do the homework first develops postponed gratification.
[00:19:11] Postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure. So that kid goes into school with his homework done. But he also learns how to discipline himself to do other things he needs to do before he does the things that he wants to do. And that was true for the girl child and the boy child when they're more likely to be under dad's supervision.
[00:19:36] And even with the peas, we're going to go to break, but even with the peas, the dad is setting the boundary and firm on the commitment of that the child would eat the peas. And the woman was a little bit more empathetic. You know, I'll just eat two. I'll just eat one. But the dad says, no, you committed. I just love that because we so need our dads. We so need men. Be right back. Kate Daly show. Kate Daly radio dot com. More with Dr. Warren Farrell.
[00:20:02] Is the Kate Daly show.
[00:20:35] Dr. Warren Farrell with me. He has written The Boy Crisis. He has the rolemate to soulmate and just so many wonderful books. We'll have part two of this interview. We'll do part two very soon because there's just so much to talk to him about. And and he's a he's speaker all over the world. Anyway, just a great guy.
[00:20:57] And I also wanted to mention I just wanted to mention real quick all family pharmacy dot com forward slash Kate has the ivermectin fembenzinol. All those types of things you can order and get right to your door and you can get extra extra ones if you want to refills. And it's just a wonderful process. I just if you're going to to do cleanses and all of those things, this is a great way to do it. And just go to all family pharmacy dot com forward slash Kate.
[00:21:25] Use the code Kate and you'll get 10 percent off. But it's a great way to get doctor scripts just sent to you without having to try to go find a doctor, get refills and things like that. It's it's a great way to do it. All right. So back here with Dr. Warren Farrell. I'm so glad you're joining me. And let's talk about some of those predictors when dads aren't around. And I love the dads that really fight to be in in the lives of their kids. And and sometimes the women make it very, very difficult.
[00:21:52] And so so what are some of the predictors of that, Dr. Farrell? Yes, it's what I call have learned to call dad deprivation. And when a man and woman are married oftentimes and then there is divorced. So very frequently, as you were implying, the women are considered to have the right to the children. And often the dads have to fight for the children, which is a very, very sad.
[00:22:17] Because what I've seen is that there are really that when children do not have their biological dad in their in their lives. And I'm afraid the biological dad has turned out to be more important than a stepfather, even though stepfathers can be very devoted and wonderful. The children are far more likely to not have that postponed gratification that we talked about.
[00:22:43] And therefore, they without that postponed gratification, they oftentimes don't succeed. They often then begin to not do well in school because they don't finish their homework, et cetera. Then the they don't feel the respect from other people, other students, their age colleagues at school. They they they're they're sort of what what the girls might call losers rather than winners. Girls are not that interested in dating losers.
[00:23:13] So the guy gets depressed and down on himself because he feels like he's being rejected by women that can make him even angry. And so and then he eventually oftentimes feels like there's no there's no sort of place for him in the world. And so he drops out of high school and he is oftentimes without purpose, without feeling of any worth.
[00:23:38] And then if he drops out of high school, there's a 20 percent chance that he's unemployed when he's in his early 20s. And he's also much more likely to not go to college. And if he does go to college, when girls and boys start young men, young women start college, men are more likely to drop out during the process of being in college. So we're now at the point where 65, 64 percent.
[00:24:07] I'm sorry, not 65, 60 percent. Now, when it's predicted that it will eventually be 65 percent of the people who graduated from college are females. And one of the problems with that is that females who graduate from college are not very interested in marrying men who are who haven't gone to college or who have gone and failed out of college.
[00:24:28] And so and the and and the boys are much more likely that when their dad deprived to go back and live with their moms and they're often in the basement. And, you know, girls and women who have graduated from college don't go searching for future fathers in their neighbor's basements or an unemployment line. This is not the type of, you know, future father that the girl is looking for. And so these are just a few.
[00:24:58] They're far more the boys are far more likely. Dad deprived boys are far more likely to be addicted to drugs, to be addicted to video games. Sometimes playing video games is actually a positive when you're playing at five, six hours a week. Boys are far more likely to play at 15 hours a week. And dad deprived boys are far more likely to play at 20, 25 hours a week and eventually become addicted to the video games.
[00:25:25] And some of them actually visualize themselves as a character in the video games rather than a real person. And so they're escaping from the world, obviously. They're far more likely to die from drug overdose than than they're far more likely to be homeless.
[00:25:45] And so in the boy crisis book, I have an appendix that lists 55 predictors of boys lives and girls lives when their dad deprived. Girls also have 55 plus predictors of problems. They just are not as likely to do the bad things like commit suicide or die from drug overdose as the boys are. But they're more likely than the girl that has a father and a mother in their life. Wow. Wow.
[00:26:15] What would you tell? What would you tell young men in their 20s? What would you tell them now? What would you what do you want them to know? What would you say to them? I'd say that. Well, first of all, I'd say if there's any way if they have not been if they if they've been in connected with a dad who is involved and a dad that cares, the chances are I don't need to tell them anything. They're doing very well.
[00:26:42] The if they haven't been, I would say that it's really important for you to reach out to your biological dad. If he says, why? I'll say because half of you is your dad and half of you is your mom. When you look in the mirror and if you've if there's a divorce, let's say, and you've heard that your dad is irresponsible, a liar and so on, you're going to look in that mirror and wonder whether that. Well, there's a part of you that lies is a part of you that's irresponsible.
[00:27:12] I'm wondering whether that's just a natural part of me. That's like my dad. And so unless you know him and work and have him work with you and allow him to be a father that requires things of you, the chances are that that's not going to that's not that's not going to be good. We I was mentioning the divorce side, but the other half of the coin is that 40 percent of the women in the United States who have children, 40 percent have children without being married.
[00:27:41] Now, some of those mothers do live with the dad. The problem is that among mothers who live with the dad and are not married, the that relationship lasts an average of just three and a half years. So the boy begins to develop an attachment to his dad who then disappears and he feels abandoned. And so that ends up producing some of the same problems as in divorces.
[00:28:08] And so if I'll I'll share here what to do. OK, so if if there is one of the boiling it down to four must do is that I talk about in the boy crisis book.
[00:28:21] And all these are much more in detail, but to give that just the headlines, if if there is if a divorce is what has happened or is inevitable and that's the only way out, then make sure that you have that you arrange for about a 50 50 amount of time of the children being with their dad as well as their mom, including the girl children.
[00:28:44] Second, that the children are not able to detect any bad mouthing or negative body language that the mother does about the father or the father does about the mother. Right. A third, that that that you that the mom and the dad live within about 20 minutes drive time from each other so the children don't feel that they have to give up their best friend's birthday party or their soccer practice in order to get to their father's house or their mother's house.
[00:29:10] And therefore, resent the other parent because they're taking them away from that practice. And fourth, that that you be involved, that the mom and dad be involved with couples counseling, not just on an emergency basis, but on a consistent basis. When it's just an emergency basis, the moms and dads tend to get into argument. Whereas when it's on a consistent basis, that's not an emergency.
[00:29:39] That's an opportunity for the mom to see the dad's perspective and the dad to see the mom's perspective and therefore see the best intent of each other. We're going to come right back more with Dr. Warren Farrell. Brace up. We all need to be listening, right? Be right back. Kate Daly show. Kate Daly radio dot com.
[00:30:08] This is the Kate Daly show. When I was just a kid, I was always trying like my old. Right. Welcome back. Kate Daly show. Sweet song.
[00:30:38] So welcome back. I've got Dr. Warren Farrell with me and make sure and go to the website. All the sponsors are there. And I appreciate that because it actually helps me stay on the air to do these shows and talk to people like Dr. Warren Farrell. And I really enjoy that. In fact, it gives some good insights, doesn't it, on what we're kind of up against right now.
[00:30:59] And kind of the battle at hand is the battle for the family and the battle to keep that intact and also to raise these boys to know their worth. And there's a there's just a strong current against that right now. And so it's it's it's tough. It's tough landscape right now for boys and for men. And so I welcome you back, Dr. Warren Farrell. Let's let's talk about that a little bit more and even go into a little bit of what happens with faith.
[00:31:26] What happens when when that dad isn't there? Yes, I remember when I was doing the research for the boy crisis book, I got asked to speak in Bedford, Stuyvesant, which is one of the poorest communities in the country in Brooklyn. And and so I start doing the presentation and I'm walking out into the audience is about 700 black males and females.
[00:31:51] And afterwards, the the pastor there had known that I was I had started about three or four hundred men's groups in the country and said, well, you know, I've he said to me, I've started four men's groups, too. And I've asked them to meet with you afterwards. And I said, great. And so I went into the back and there was 32 guys that sat around eight in per group. And and so I asked them each to share a little bit about their backstory and what they'd been through.
[00:32:20] And of the 28 of the of the 32, 28 of them had been to prison. And and I said, you know, tell me about that in relation to the church. And they said almost all of them said the same thing. If it wasn't for my being.
[00:32:42] Drafted or found or, you know, getting involved with the church and having this faith, I would be doing the same type of thing that I was doing that got me into prison. And they almost all said it was two things, really.
[00:32:58] It was both the faith in God and then also believe and then also the personal attention from the minister saying to, you know, taking him aside and saying, you know, you're here that some wonderful things about you. And here are some things you can do to become even more wonderful. And you and so you just see the power of that, particularly with boys without dads.
[00:33:25] Almost none of these boys had dad. They were almost all dad deprived boys. You see that probably the best example of the power of faith is in the Mormon community and where you see such where you where you have not only the father and the mother involved, but you have very strong faith from the beginning. It's integrated into the into the family structure.
[00:33:51] And each boy and girl is required and expected to have to do a mission. And that means that they have to have a discipline and they have a purpose. And that focus on something that they can do, that you can give what you focus on that you that for you to give is what gives back to you. You know, I am in a place now where I could easily take off and not do anything the rest of my life.
[00:34:20] And I choose to do what I'm doing now because of the fact that it just, you know, I feel good about the outcome and what it gives. And what I give, I receive. I love that. I love that. Both my boys served and in that way.
[00:34:36] And I'm telling you, the wonder, the thing that it did for them, just for them to be able to be put in that position to to worry about other people for two years and be able to have that kind of discipline, waking up very early, going to bed early. I mean, it was just it was amazing to watch that that happen. And it does give them purpose. And I I feel so strongly that that women really need to support men in the role that I think men are designed for.
[00:35:04] And I think that they feel that mantle, don't they? As they're growing up, they're going to be the breadwinner. They're going to go out and and and take care of their little family. And sometimes, you know, women kind of want to do it all. And then what do the men do? And I it goes back to does a man open the door anymore for a woman? I mean, I think men just are caught are caught in the crosshairs. They don't know what to do anymore because there's so many mixed messages. It's hard.
[00:35:33] It really is hard. And the and it's and we need to have I mean, there are men who are really wonderful nurturer connectors. You see them in elementary schools and the high schools and so on. And they're caring, loving men. And that's their natural personality. And there are women whose natural personality is oriented toward, you know, I want to be a Nobel Prize winner. I want to you know, I want to really focus on something. And we should allow for that.
[00:36:01] But when women like that are looking for future husbands and they also want a family, a lot of women say, well, you know, men can be have it all men, but women can't be have it all women. And in fact, they can be have it all women. If if your choice is to be, you know, have a career be your primary thing, but you also want to have well raised children.
[00:36:22] Then you need to look for and initiate with men who are not also super providers, but are nurturer connectors rather than provider protector types. And make sure you have respect for them, because every man intuitively knows that if you don't have respect for him, you can't love him. Women don't love men. They don't respect.
[00:36:46] And so that has to be the woman has to check out about whether or not she is capable of respecting a man who is a full time, you know, nurturer, protector of the children. And if that's your choice, rather than feeling guilty or feeling like you have to be constrained to one role, it's OK to open yourself up to other alternatives as well. Yeah. And I feel like we as women need to need to say it's it's OK.
[00:37:15] It's good to be a man. Sometimes we want them to be women, you know, think like a woman. And and no, they're designed to be men because they bring in what they bring into the relationship. And and and that's why it's such a like like when you were telling the peace story, eating the peace. It's like this is why men and women are designed to have kids together in a life together as you're learning from each other. Right. You both bring to the table, you know, absolutely.
[00:37:42] And one of the things one of the reasons why we really need to educate the country as to the importance of fathers is that when that when the father isn't involved, the children do so much worse on average. And the the mother almost every single and then if there's a divorce, almost every single mother describes herself with one word overwhelmed.
[00:38:08] Yeah. And how dysfunctional it is for women is for the mother to be overwhelmed, for the dad to not have contact with the children or have minimal contact with the children. So she's overwhelmed. He's without purpose and the children are without their dad. Yeah. That's the ultimate lose lose situation. I'm with you. The boy crisis. Dr. Warren Farrell. Thank you for coming in today. I really appreciate it. And then, of course, role mate to soul mate.
[00:38:34] He also has events. Look it up. Dr. Warren Farrell. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I'll be right back. It's such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. I'll be right back on the Kate Daly show. Don't go anywhere. Thanks so much, you guys.